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Thread: Air combat training proposal

  1. #1
    Supporting Member Pans's Avatar
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    Air combat training proposal

    There seems to be a lot of new faces joining the forums lately (including me), and many are either brand new pilots or fairly inexperienced. I'm sure that there is always a regular turnover, but I imagine that the number of new members will only increase as the agreement with TFS, eventual Steam updates and, somewhere down the line, the release of the TF5.0 all helps to generate interest in Cliffs of Dover.

    The steep learning curve of CloD is universally acknowledged and I see that there has in the past been an organised "ATAG flight School" that has presumably slipped by the wayside. As it stands the current advice to new pilots wanting assistance is "ask on Teamspeak, everyone is friendly and willing to help". This is without a shadow of doubt true, but as a method not without some problems. Clearly some very good friendships have been formed on the ATAG servers and when everyone is having a good time and chatting freely it can be very difficult (sometimes literally getting a word in, but also in terms of social awkwardness) to be the new person butting in for help.

    For a few days I've been thinking about an idea based on my own experiences of learning to fly on the ATAG server. Obviously everyone is different and no two people will have the same levels of skill, transferable experience and confidence. Some people will be willing to throw themselves in at the deep end, both into the banter on Teamspeak and the nearest furball. Others (and I include myself here) might be more reserved about joining in the chat and their ability to fly and fight. Aside from some initial instruction on the controls and advice for getting airborne from Lolsav and Highseas, I found that engine management in normal flight was reasonably straightforward to learn given some time and practice. The problem comes as a new pilot when you try applying this to dogfighting and find yourself flopping around the sky like a landed fish and stalling rather than executing the perfect yo-yo or scissors that you can visualise in you minds' eye.

    So what am I proposing? This would need the involvement of some experienced players to help get things going, but my idea is effectively a training team to guide newbies through air combat manoeuvring. Rather than a timetabled event or formal instruction, it would just take the format of a panel of players willing to offer their assistance. Someone wanting to practice their ACM could then approach one or more members of this panel, either on the forums or whenever they see them in-game, knowing that they would be willing to help. My idea is for these volunteers to help new pilots build their skills without the fear and inconvenience of being shot down until they feel confident enough to go out and wade into fights on the main server. Ideally some of these new players would themselves go on to become the next generation of trainers. As we experience waves of new players it could be a good way to group people with comparable skill levels that go on to regularly fly together. The ATAG bomber server would be a good place to do this, probably the sightseeing airfield in London as it seems to have the most aircraft types, or any other remote airfield that won't interrupt normal play on the server. If it isn't already available, perhaps a 109E-4 could also be added to the available plane types from this particular airfield?

    At this stage I'd definitely be a beneficiary rather than a particularly useful trainer but nonetheless I'm happy to put my name forward should any other new pilots want some non-threatening combat practice… just shout me on Teamspeak if you see me playing.

    So... I guess now I'd be interested to know what the rest of you think. Could this work? Has it already been tried and failed? Anyone interested in helping make it a reality?

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    JG51 is available for training in the 109, hit JG51_BlackC5 (myself) up at any time and I or one of or squad trainers will be glad to help.
    or hit us up on our website:
    http://www.jg51molders.com/Newforum/index.php

    there are several good videos on the site also.
    such as

    http://www.jg51molders.com/Newforum/...issors-escape/

    or

    http://www.jg51molders.com/Newforum/...w-17-scissors/

    http://www.jg51molders.com/Newforum/...6-loose-deuce/

    JG51_BlackC5 CO
    Last edited by Blackc5; Mar-14-2017 at 14:17.
    JG51_BlackC5

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Lolsav's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Panser i appreciate your enthusiasm and effort. Makes me smile. Really. I get somewhat proud


    Now addressing the points you have made.

    1. Any effort to help newcomers is appreciated, by the community and by the newcomers too im sure (once they acknowledge they need to learn "stuff" again).

    2. I just question the timming. And i elaborate: We all are going to be "noobs" again. Very soon hopefully. The density bug will change some things around. What is true today it might not be so true when the patch comes out. So i wonder, does it make sense to embrace such a task for now? Not sure. I think a little input from the ones who know more about the future of the FM would be nice to have. Not mandatory, but a "+" to have in this type of initiative.

    3. On the other hand some principles shouldnt change, as in, 109s fight in vertical and spits in horizontal (mostly). But what you propose i think its on the verge to change. The way planes behave will dictate how people fight. And that comes with experience and a lot of dieing in the process, doing mistakes and start to avoid them. Its part of the process. There isnt a "solution ready" for the pilot, or, alas, the game would lose all the fun also if you take the unpredictable from the equation. The pilot decision, the move, the instinct aquired by the experience makes many times the diffrence. And this is true for any side one flys to. For any combat sim, really. But how do you pass on experience? Do and repeat? Tell the "how did i did this and why"? - Dont really know.

    4. Still, if you decide to come up with some sort of "lessons" or a "Question&Answer" sort of thing over Teamspeak, i volunteer to assist the way i can. Ive done it in the past, can do it again. Its fun
    Last edited by ATAG_Lolsav; Mar-14-2017 at 20:31.

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    Combat pilot Perfesser's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    I think Panser is reading my mind somehow....

    This is exactly what newer people need to feel more confident and become more competent. Heck, I even enjoy teaching some of the finer points of ACM and mostly combat survival if you're willing to put in the time.
    Most know how to fly competently enough but few know how to fly as a team. You don't need to have hundreds of hours of stick time to learn the basic skills of combat flying, the earlier the better.
    A good combat pilot is a good wingman first.

    Perhaps recording a few sessions and a bit of editing would yield some stuff that could be shared among many.

    It's worth exploring anyway....
    If any newer pilot in the NA timezone wants to be a guinea pig, PM me and maybe we can set something up.

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    ACM is ACM and the nice thing about CloD is that the flight model is accurate enough that real world ACM works as expected (with some exceptions) and I do not see the TF5.0 patch changing that.

    one good way to train is thru videos, if a new pilot will spend the time to watch and take notes then practice what he sees it can go a long way, I know that I'm always watching someone else's video and learning some new bit to add to my toolbox.

    after the pilot has done the above with the videos then spending time flying on a good pilots wing starts to pull it all together.

    with all of this said, these are the shortcuts, and it takes a lot of stick time in fights (and yes getting shot down) to make the learned tactics an instinctive reaction, that is what it has to be to become good at this.


    JG51_BlackC5 CO
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    Team Fusion ATAG_Pattle's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    I'm available to help.

    Easier for me to assist new Aussie or NZ pilots from a Timezone perspective.

    CloD does require a level of dedication to improvement and time at the start. How much you are willing or able to give is relative to what you want to get out of it.

    If anyone wants to wing up with me, just pm me, or if you see me on, sing out in TeamSpeak.

    I can always drop us into another's channel so Comms is not a problem.

    Same offer goes for people who would like to become more comfortable on Comms, we could have a group on a seperate channel which I can join in.

    I understand it is hard to get a word in at times and in reality everyone doesn't need to be on the same channel.

    I've been playing for 9 months now, have learnt from a number of players, and particularly from my mistakes. All part of the fun.

    So the offer is there.

    Pattle

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    Public Relations ATAG_Marlow's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Pattle View Post
    I'm available to help.

    Easier for me to assist new Aussie or NZ pilots from a Timezone perspective.

    CloD does require a level of dedication to improvement and time at the start. How much you are willing or able to give is relative to what you want to get out of it.

    If anyone wants to wing up with me, just pm me, or if you see me on, sing out in TeamSpeak.

    I can always drop us into another's channel so Comms is not a problem.

    Same offer goes for people who would like to become more comfortable on Comms, we could have a group on a seperate channel which I can join in.

    I understand it is hard to get a word in at times and in reality everyone doesn't need to be on the same channel.

    I've been playing for 9 months now, have learnt from a number of players, and particularly from my mistakes. All part of the fun.

    So the offer is there.

    Pattle
    I'd just like to echo what Pat has said above and throw my hat in the ring, as well. I don't pretend to be the same standard as Pat but I would be happy to help where I can. Being in Europe I might be available at a time when Pat is snoring his head off! Ha ha!

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Pattle View Post
    I'm available to help.

    Easier for me to assist new Aussie or NZ pilots from a Timezone perspective.

    CloD does require a level of dedication to improvement and time at the start. How much you are willing or able to give is relative to what you want to get out of it.

    If anyone wants to wing up with me, just pm me, or if you see me on, sing out in TeamSpeak.

    I can always drop us into another's channel so Comms is not a problem.

    Same offer goes for people who would like to become more comfortable on Comms, we could have a group on a seperate channel which I can join in.

    I understand it is hard to get a word in at times and in reality everyone doesn't need to be on the same channel.

    I've been playing for 9 months now, have learnt from a number of players, and particularly from my mistakes. All part of the fun.

    So the offer is there.

    Pattle
    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Marlow View Post
    I'd just like to echo what Pat has said above and throw my hat in the ring, as well. I don't pretend to be the same standard as Pat but I would be happy to help where I can. Being in Europe I might be available at a time when Pat is snoring his head off! Ha ha!
    I would just like to chip in at this stage - if any new flyers are reading through this thread and wondering how on earth they are going to improve at this sim or last longer than 5 minutes on the main ATAG without dying (I think everyone must have thought this!), I have spent a fair bit of time with Marlow and especially with Pattle over the last 5 months.
    Their help and advice is the single most thing that has kept me persevering. I still fly quite often with Pattle and every time I learn something new and improve.
    Get on Teamspeak and take them up on their offer people!

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    Supporting Member Pans's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    A big thank you to everyone who has offered their help. I think for such an idea to work we'd need a few people from each major timezone - UK/Europe, North America and Aus/NZ... things are looking good so far!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lolsav View Post
    Panser i appreciate your enthusiasm and effort. Makes me smile. Really. I get somewhat proud


    Now addressing the points you have made. <snip>
    Hi Lolsav, thanks for your kind words. I guess the easiest way to respond to your comments is in order!

    1. I understand that not everyone will want to be involved in this. Some might already have enough experience and confidence from other sims to just jump straight in. Others that could benefit from training might just be more interested in getting airborne and loosing off some dakka ASAP. My idea is aimed squarely at the core of the ATAG community – mature gamers willing to learn and work together. A recurrent theme seems to be the new forum member with little or no prior flight sim experience or experience of games past and present with much less "realistic" flight models.

    2. We don't know when the next major update is coming and with all due respect we can't hold our breath waiting for uncertain changes. I don't doubt that TF5.0 will appear, but at present we have no idea what will change and we already have a damn fine game worth learning! Besides, is the flight model truly likely to change significantly? Even if it does change, it won't make redundant the experience that players possess. I would imagine any change will be subtle and most likely to affect those at the very top of the skill curve who already fly their aircraft at the limit.

    3. Exactly… even if elements of the flight model are altered, the general principles and relative performance of aircraft should not change significantly. What I'm suggesting is not an attempt to create an "ace factory" because the only way that can be achieved is through hundreds of hours of combat practice. I suppose in its simplest terms, I'm suggesting a buddy system for very basic combat training. An environment in which inexperienced players can develop their situational awareness and practice manoeuvring for advantage against one another without having to worry if they lose control or make a mistake. Although it is the brutal reality of what we're simulating, nothing is more dispiriting (and inconvenient) as a new flyer than to successfully get airborne, take care of your engine, fly around for 10 minutes looking for some action to then either find yourself going down in flames at the hands of someone you never even saw coming or to flail around helplessly before being knocked out of the sky.

    4. I hadn't considered any formal lesson structure and was thinking that training would be ad hoc. In my mind's eye it was an arrangement between two or more players to practice flying together and attempting to manoeuvre into a firing position on one another. For practicing set-piece manoeuvres, perhaps certain teachings from Johan Kylander's "In Pursuit" would be a good basis for those that would like structure?
    I think the other consideration is that people be able to fly the aircraft of their choice from the same field, even if that potentially means 109s flying in RAF colours in the same manner you can fly the sightseeing map offline. I don't know if there is an Allied ammo option comparable to the Beobachtung round, but maybe a loadout like that could be an option for anyone wanting to practice live-fire under these circumstances?

    I appreciate that this isn't yet a complete idea so it is very much open to suggestions!
    Last edited by Pans; Mar-15-2017 at 13:49.

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    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    It not the training per se

    Sometimes its just knowing that there are people waiting on line who you KNOW are there to help you find your feet. There's a lot of talk of ACMs in here but the biggest bar in the sim isn't skill, its networks. Its about having the confidence to go up to someone and say "teach me that" or "can I fly with you". And that confidence comes from getting to know them. And that comes from flying with someone who knows them already and being introduced casually. And lets face it, if you've done a few months in here and survived it, you pretty much know everyone who matters.

    Steam and TS allow you to alter your game name - adding "Happy to Help" or whatever to you name when you are actually happy to help and not just wanting to kill sommat might help new players feel less awkward about approaching you. Once that contact is made, the rest should be easy. Set em up, get em flying, get em introduced and watch em go.

    It doesn't need to be anything more than that IMO.
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    Supporting Member Pans's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boosterdog View Post
    Sometimes its just knowing that there are people waiting on line who you KNOW are there to help you find your feet.
    I couldn't agree more with that - having named people to approach rather than just awkwardly asking anybody and everybody makes a huge difference. If nothing else comes of my suggestion, a named "here to help" list would be a great thing to have on the forums.

    There's a lot of talk of ACMs in here but the biggest bar in the sim isn't skill, its networks.
    Learning to fly and fight at the same time is still a huge bar... it's the difference between learning to ski jump and learning to ski jump one handed while reading a book!

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    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Panser View Post
    I couldn't agree more with that - having named people to approach rather than just awkwardly asking anybody and everybody makes a huge difference. If nothing else comes of my suggestion, a named "here to help" list would be a great thing to have on the forums.



    Learning to fly and fight at the same time is still a huge bar... it's the difference between learning to ski jump and learning to ski jump one handed while reading a book!

    Learning to fly in a combat sim is learning to fight really - even if you think you're only transiting or landing- you are trying to keep safe and be in a position of best advantage always - situational awareness all the time (something I largely lack). And this gets better the more able you are to do the "borin stuff" like flying to a heading, not blowing your engine up, keeping in touch with your mates, knowing where East is, (knowing that East is 90 degrees even), knowing where you are (never easy in French Clod at first), without thinking. All skills that can be learned and refined in good company quickly and without it feeling like a lesson whilst getting to know everyone at the same time.

    This way also takes the pressure off the "teacher" - few of us can really teach effectively no matter how good our simming skills are and the expectation we place on ourselves can have a negative effect on ourselves and on others.

    I once had the pleasure of listening to Spiritus Mortem teach a new player on TS.....I couldn't have got him up and down first time like SM did, nor could I have gotten him so much at ease. I decided there and then that id never put myself up as a teacher.

    - a tipster at best - that's me

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Happy to help with Brit Fighter tactics, game setup etc. Aussie Timezone. Like Pat above, reach me on Teamspeak and I will come off the main channel and assist on non main channels.

    Assistance to new pilots benefits us all in the long run, so happy to do my bit.
    https://imgur.com/VCUiXpY

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    This might be disagreeable to some forum members.

    I have never flown online and I have been using MS flightsim programs since 1995. Being fully retired I have spent many hours in the virtual cockpit and have designed and made my own scenery, flightplans and created or modified several aircraft cfgs.

    Considering what a novice pilot in Clod should be expected and trained to do, albeit not expertly, prior to leaping into the cockpit as a member of an active squadron might be as follows:

    A) To demonstrate capable circuits and bumps solo. this would include engine starts, taxying, t/o, cct airfield, land, return taxy, park and engine off.

    B) As above but as no. 2 in a pair. Capable of t/o and landing in loose formation.

    C) Cross country navigation of a triangular pattern under supervision of an instructor pilot - the student solo would lead the 'instructor' from t/o to landing with the instructor correcting outrageous student errors or terrors!

    D) Aerobatics: Solo turns, loops, figure of eight, Immelman turns. Disregarding engine cutout in Spits and Hurricanes when in inverted flight.

    E) I can't see a way to practice marksmanship in Clod until one gets onto a Squadron and into the fray.

    F) Climb to height with 'instructor' who then breaks away and 'attacks' student who should be able to practice observation and evasion without 'baling out'! 1968 BofB film "dagga, dagga, dagga."


    The business of real world timezones and the problems of hooking up with an instructor could be difficult but hopefully not impossible.

    Above I have written 'albeit not expertly' for I am well aware that in real life advanced training courses were cut short and winged 'sprogs' arrived on Squadrons barely competent.

    Much of the above practice could be done by a 'nooby' solo 'offline' with possible weekly checks by the 'instructor'.

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    Combat pilot Perfesser's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Actually Pilgrim I have to disagree with you on your perspective.

    I'll bet the majority of us don't want you to think of any of this as a test of any sort where you have to demonstrate some level of expertise to "belong" to a club.
    We're here because we share a passion, we want to share that with others, and we want to help you to enjoy it as much as we all do. We won't judge you or mock you but encourage you all we can.

    Come and hang out with some fine folks who share a common interest, if you're having trouble with certain aspects they're all too willing to share their experiences.
    Last edited by Perfesser; Mar-16-2017 at 15:56.

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    For Perfesser: The help I have already received from forum members is most appreciated. I have a brand new technique to learn on new aircraft in a type of flight simulator that I have not used previously.

    I am looking forward to joining in and enjoying myself.

    Perhaps I spent too much time in a classroom trying to teach young men the fundamentals of RAF airmanship.

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Many years ago, not long before that meteor hit the earth eventually causing the demise of the dinosaurs, a fledgling Squadron was started called the Skeleton Crew in a little known WW1 Flightsim called Flying Circus.

    The Squadron still survives today of which Fatal Error and I are life time members. It has flown in one form of another in almost every online sim WW1 and WW2 since that time. Nearly 20 years in all I believe. The reason for that Squadrons longevity stemmed in part from the commitment of its founding members to programs for its pilots. One of which was called the C.A.T.S. program, or Combat Air Training School.

    C.A.T.S. was run by the Skeleton Crews most experienced and proficient pilots. Chiefly the venerable SC-1Shot and the late but great SC-Mutt,

    A number of progressively harder air manoeuvres was placed into sequential order to which the student pilot would have to become proficient in each one before moving to the next. Proficiency earns a small graphic badge to be added to the signature block which served to show the students commitment. Completion of the program earn't the pilot a formal certificate in C.A.T.S proficiency, The program started with simple objectives.

    A four point flight, a barrel roll, a Derry turn, a loop, Hi and low yo yo's etc
    Stage 2 of C.A.T.S. involved conducting these manouvers in a 1 vs 1 Combat Situation. More important was explaining why a pilot used a particular manoeuvre.
    Stage 3 involved introduction to full combat using multiple manouvers and assessment of all elements.

    The process was a program and time to complete depended on each pilots availability or the availability of a substitute instructor.

    C.A.T.S proved to be of enormous benefit tot he Squadron and eventually included advanced classes in Squadron tactics.

    C.A.T.S was a lot of work and required a firm commitment by those involved, both instructors and participants but its benefits were universal to both the individual pilot and the Squadron.

    C.A.T.S or similar could work in CloD and many lessons can be practiced offline by the student pilot. It would require some instructional videos. (Many about to be collated with originators permissions) and would require an Instructor cadre.

    So the concept is not new. It is doable and it will work in CloD.

    But its a big commitment and a lot of work. It's usefulness is without question. The question therefore is do you create it for the individual loner in order to benefit the game as a whole or place them in Squadrons in a learning capacity to develop the same skills, albeit not as a program but as a learning curve through experience?
    Last edited by SIA_Sp00k; Mar-17-2017 at 08:05.
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  27. #18
    Supporting Member invictus84's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    I'm happy to help in any way I can, tho' I pretty much only fly 109s. Maybe I should join some Spitfire and Hurri sessions as a student myself...if only to see how "the other half live"?

    I'd only caution that new pilots should still expect to die ALOT, even after going through training. To quote a wise, Yoda-like figure from the community:


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackc5 View Post

    ... it takes a lot of stick time in fights (and yes getting shot down) to make the learned tactics an instinctive reaction, that is what it has to be to become good at this.

    JG51_BlackC5 CO



    Still...it's a great idea. Just let me know how (and when) I can help.

    Last edited by invictus84; Mar-18-2017 at 11:02.
    Vae Victis!


    "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight." - Sun Tzu

    Come watch the fun!


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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    So after a week not a single new player has expressed any desire (to me) to work out some structured training.

    Forget the structure, if anyone simply wants some 1 on 1 training beyond a simple question or two the offer is still open. PM me.

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    Veteran Combat pilot Hurricane's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfesser View Post
    So after a week not a single new player has expressed any desire (to me) to work out some structured training.

    Forget the structure, if anyone simply wants some 1 on 1 training beyond a simple question or two the offer is still open. PM me.
    Not a case of not wanting to be tutored buddy.

    I am just no good with people and the thought of TS does actually make me feel very anxious.

    I spent 9 hours today re-installing 1946 in three different locations with BAT & VP mods in two and a stock install updated to v4.13.3

    As 1946 seems to be more orientated towards single player, where i don't have to worry about interacting with others.

    Which also seems to have more 3rd party single player missions available than CLOD.

    Mind compared to CLOD the overall graphics are terrible and the cockpits are low res at best.

    Best regards,
    Mike.
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    Not a case of not wanting to be tutored buddy.

    I am just no good with people and the thought of TS does actually make me feel very anxious.

    As 1946 seems to be more orientated towards single player, where i don't have to worry about interacting with others.

    Mike.

    You made me laugh Mike....

    ATAG isn't a dating site mate, you don't have to entertain us or charm us with your wit and charisma.

    We're all there to put bullets and bombs on the enemy so not being good with people could be viewed as an advantage.


    Some nights I get involved on Teamspeak, other times I have to keep the noise down or I just feel like lonewolfing, so I just listen

    ATAG is great like that, you just fly and participate how you want to, no pressure.

    As they say, it's about the fun
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Good news! I suspect a goodly portion of those on TS are not people at all!

    In other news...

    You don't really have to talk to use Teamspeak (TS) in game. You can just use it as a listening tool, getting a feel for the entities around you, learning where the combat action is, listening to information for intercepts or running to known locations of friendlies when being chased. So even if you cant speak 'Goat", are unsure of the latest 'Weasel words' or just can't understand the Scottish, Southerners or recognise the difference between an American and a Canadian gibbering, you can still let it add to the ambience as background noise and enhance and otherwise great game.

    (Disclaimer: Unless one of them says: "Ayeee" at the end of every sentence, they're bound the be an American. Confirmed if they call you "Buddy". Otherwise its an impossible excerise)

    Once your comfortable with it, you can dip your toe in the water at your leisure with a subtle question of relevance and build you way up from there. A bit like being an Aracnophobic and sticking your hand into a web full of small tiny spiders!

    Then once you know that in 99.99% of instances, anyone on there will gladly help you, you can use it for two way Comms and entertain the idea of 1:1 training.
    Last edited by SIA_Sp00k; Mar-20-2017 at 02:39.
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    I know what you are saying guys and the sentiments are appreciated.

    I do listen on TS sometimes not very often though.

    Nooooooooooooooooooooooo TWC_Sp00k, spiders absolutely freak me out

    Damn, Stalker i thought my luck was in. I have been looking for a sexy Hurricane Mk IV to call my own

    I saw you were looking for guys to join your squadron the last time i was on the forum TWC_Sp00k.

    Nearly put my name down, but chickened out at the last minute. What can't chickens do............ they can't fly.

    Thanks again both, as i said soon after i joined the forum. The help, support and atmosphere on here, is second to none.

    Best regards,
    Mike.
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Hi Hurricane

    You shouldn't be shy of TWC - they are a group of real gents and fun to be around. No egos either (not since I moved on anyhows )

    TS isn't for everyone and you'll find your own way but it would be a shame to loose you to SP so early. Linking up with people on sub channels can sometimes take the pressure of you as its more intimate and you can be a little more loose with the use.

    Dip in and duck out as you see fit - there's no contract afterall.

    As you know - help and advice is always at hand!
    My Rig: Samsung 40" TV, 5600X on Air, RTX3080 FE, 32GB Gskill Neo 3600 CL16 RAM, M2 Gen 4 Drives, Corsair RM850X PSU, MFG Crosswinds, TM WH Throttle, Virpil Mongoose T50CM w/100mm extension, TIR5, EDtracker pro.


    " Better a thorn on the outside than a prick on the inside"

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Hi Booster,

    hahahahahahaha, don't see you have an ego buddy. Just a great sense of humour.

    Yeah it's all good Booster, help is always given without caveat on the forum

    What !!!! no contract and no fee at the end of it.

    I'm not playing anymore, taking my plane and going home.

    I always appreciate you taking the time to reply, as i do with all the guys.

    Best regards,
    Mike.
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Hurricane you are more than welcome to fly on our wing. If you enjoy it, you can look to sign up or take what you learn from us and apply it elsewhere with another squadron. We and others often use our own TS when we are in large number to save clogging up ATAG's TS but we are also commonly found on there also, if not using it, then listening in to gain intel on situation reports.

    We can teach you ACM for single flight, Section sized flight and Squadron sized flight and introduce you to the many ancilliary tools, the TWC and other Squadrons utilise in company with the game.

    Many squadrons will do the same, both red and blue. Theres no pressure, either ingame or out. Its try before you buy without risk. For us, we aid the community in building its pilot base and every now and again, snaffle a new member into the bargain and for you, its a no risk, all gain situation where if nothing else, you have met a new group of online friends in game. Pop by the forum, twcclan.com and say hello in the general area. The boys will look out for you on TS and all you have to do is say hello and they will invite you into the wing. If I am on, Ill say G'day on text.

    It is much easier to learn on TS and obviously assists with the passage of info and help. We will encourage you to use it. But its not mandatory. You'll know when it is, with 4 109's on your 6 and your fingers skittering across the keyboard in the dark typing ...

    You: "HJLp 32 109sa on my tt!!!"

    Us: "Where are you?"

    You: "calighte hhak"


    Will look out for you. We are currently training a couple of new guys right now and have a dedicated training server to assist in that process, so you wont be alone.

    Offer extends to any new pilot out there. Drop us a line, let us know your interested in assistance and like the ATAG boys or many of the others on both sides of the pond, the TWC will accept you into the temporary ranks until you know what it is you want to do.

    Thanks Boo
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  42. #27
    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Mother said my sense of humour was my biggest asset. Took her a while to find something to say at all mind......... seemed palpably relieved when the thought finally struck her....
    My Rig: Samsung 40" TV, 5600X on Air, RTX3080 FE, 32GB Gskill Neo 3600 CL16 RAM, M2 Gen 4 Drives, Corsair RM850X PSU, MFG Crosswinds, TM WH Throttle, Virpil Mongoose T50CM w/100mm extension, TIR5, EDtracker pro.


    " Better a thorn on the outside than a prick on the inside"

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_Sp00k View Post
    Hurricane you are more than welcome to fly on our wing. If you enjoy it, you can look to sign up or take what you learn from us and apply it elsewhere with another squadron. We and others often use our own TS when we are in large number to save clogging up ATAG's TS but we are also commonly found on there also, if not using it, then listening in to gain intel on situation reports.

    We can teach you ACM for single flight, Section sized flight and Squadron sized flight and introduce you to the many ancilliary tools, the TWC and other Squadrons utilise in company with the game.

    Many squadrons will do the same, both red and blue. Theres no pressure, either ingame or out. Its try before you buy without risk. For us, we aid the community in building its pilot base and every now and again, snaffle a new member into the bargain and for you, its a no risk, all gain situation where if nothing else, you have met a new group of online friends in game. Pop by the forum, twcclan.com and say hello in the general area. The boys will look out for you on TS and all you have to do is say hello and they will invite you into the wing. If I am on, Ill say G'day on text.

    It is much easier to learn on TS and obviously assists with the passage of info and help. We will encourage you to use it. But its not mandatory. You'll know when it is, with 4 109's on your 6 and your fingers skittering across the keyboard in the dark typing ...

    You: "HJLp 32 109sa on my tt!!!"

    Us: "Where are you?"

    You: "calighte hhak"


    Will look out for you. We are currently training a couple of new guys right now and have a dedicated training server to assist in that process, so you wont be alone.

    Offer extends to any new pilot out there. Drop us a line, let us know your interested in assistance and like the ATAG boys or many of the others on both sides of the pond, the TWC will accept you into the temporary ranks until you know what it is you want to do.

    Thanks Boo
    Hi Sp00k,

    i would like to give it a go thank you. On the condition that if i am totally useless or being a pain, you guys tell me.

    Nothing worse than spoiling the enjoyment of others, specially for the guys who have limited time in CLOD due to real life commitments.

    Hi Booster,

    see what i mean i was giggling like a big girlie at your last reply.

    All the best both.
    Mike.
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfesser View Post
    Actually Pilgrim I have to disagree with you on your perspective.

    I'll bet the majority of us don't want you to think of any of this as a test of any sort where you have to demonstrate some level of expertise to "belong" to a club.
    We're here because we share a passion, we want to share that with others, and we want to help you to enjoy it as much as we all do. We won't judge you or mock you but encourage you all we can.

    Come and hang out with some fine folks who share a common interest, if you're having trouble with certain aspects they're all too willing to share their experiences.
    Perfesser, I fully understand the not wanting to take a test part, but it is even less fun for a new pilot to try to line up for a takeoff with others and ground-loop on Takeoff taking out 3 other pilots, while the rest of the flight has to circle waiting for everyone to get in the air, or to takeoff and try to catch up the the flight, or try to find anything if he is separated from the flight.


    this is a realistic Sim game and a certain amount of basic skills is best practiced in 1 on 1 setting before being thrown into the mix.

    JG51_BlackC5 CO
    JG51_BlackC5

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    Re: Air combat training proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Invictus View Post
    I'm happy to help in any way I can, tho' I pretty much only fly 109s. Maybe I should join some Spitfire and Hurri sessions as a student myself...if only to see how "the other half live"?

    I'd only caution that new pilots should still expect to die ALOT, even after going through training. To quote a wise, Yoda-like figure from the community:







    Still...it's a great idea. Just let me know how (and when) I can help.

    dude did you just call me short, uggggggly, green and covered with warts / hair on my face?

    Thats it I'm flying red and ramming you all night
    JG51_BlackC5

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