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Thread: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

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    TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quick 10 minute internet search:


    F/S George Unwin, also of No. 19 Squadron, recalled his combat of 15 September:

    Anyway I went into a tight turn and stayed in it and there, I don't know how many of these aircraft there were, I shot at several of them as they went through my sights but I actually shot two of them down. One of them strangely enough,

    I fired at the first one, I got the first one, and he bailed out. And of course the Messerschmitt pilot unfortunately sat on his tank, did you know that? He sat on his petrol tank and it wasn't a very, if they got a bullet there - up it

    went. This chap bailed out and I went to sight the next one, when suddenly the light - the reflector sight was an electric bulb lit up, and the bloody bulb failed. So I am without a sight but we did have this ammunition so the next one I

    got, I was still in a tight turn all the time, I mean, that was what probably saved me, you kept on turning and turning. Because the Messerschmitt couldn't turn like a Spitfire and I kept on turning, I don't know how many aircraft there

    were and the second I shot down without a sight. It was really wild and, you know, the fall off on the trace of a bullet and I got him exactly the same way, his tank went up but that frightened me I can tell you. I was all on my own in

    the middle of, I don't know how many, how many Messerschmitts there were but fortunately, as I say, I got away with it. I didn't even get a hole in me that day and yet against the odd ones I have several times got holes in me, but that

    day I got away with it. I must have had a guardian angel with me that day. 89


    F/Lt J. W. Villa of No 72 Squadron recorded on his Combat Report for 15 September:

    The ME 109 which I attacked half rolled as I opened fire and before he could dive away he caught fire and exploded. I was then attacked by five other ME 109. I did a steep turn to starboard and continued to turn until I out turned one ME

    109 which was on my tail. I gave him two short bursts and he burst into flames. 90


    F/Sgt William H. Franklin of No. 65 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 25 June 1940:

    65 Squadron on offensive patrol North of Abbeville sighted about 12 ME.109 at about 15,000 feet. We attacked per section, I was Blue 2. An enemy aircraft circled on to my sections tail and I broke away to engage, but Blue 3 got there

    before me. I was then attacked by 2 enemy aircraft, and turned sharply to get on the tail of one. I manoevured into position on his tail and fired a very short burst at about 200 yards. Enemy aircraft burst into flames and dived

    vertically. I was now engaged by second enemy aircraft. I manoevured onto his tail, as 2 other enemy aircraft attacked me from the rear. I broke away and after considerable manoevuring we had lost height to 4000 feet. One Me.109 again

    attacked from behind but I was able to turn slightly and get on his tail. I followed him as he turned and seeing me closing on him he half rolled. This brought the other two aircraft out of position for attack on me. I followed inside

    the first enemy aircraft and fired two very short bursts at about 250 yards and I saw enemy aircraft dive into the ground. 77


    F/O William Nelson D.F.C., an American in the R.C.A.F. and serving with No. 74 Squadron, recorded in his Combat Report for 11-8-40:

    I was yellow 3 in No. 74 Squadron, on patrol over Dover at about 24,000 feet and sighted 8 M.E. 109s's to port. My leader suddenly dived on one ME 109, so I circled looking for any E/A coming down on our section. While climbing and

    turning I saw 6 M.E. 109's at 28,000 feet who obviously did not see me, they were circling widely so I climbed onto the last E/A. I was sighted and they started turning steeply, I easily out-turned them. They all broke up and the last

    E/A flich-rolled away from me, I closed rapidly and at the short range of 150 yards I opened fire with a 3 seconds burst dead astern, and he burst into flames. I immediately turned quickly away and saw the remainder E/A speeding for

    home, well away. Not seeing any further E/A I pancaked Manston. The M.E. 109's were sky - blue beneath and ordinary camouflaged above with black crosses. 81


    P/O George Bennions, of No 41 Squadron, demonstrated that the Spitfire was especially effective against the Me 109 when the turn was combined with a steep climb:

    As Mitor Red 2 in line astern of Red 1 while acting as rear guard to blue and green sections, I noticed 2 ME 109's above and to the right diving to attack Red 1. I warned Red 1 and we turned right to evade them. We then turned left

    behind them to engage them. Half way around the turn I noticed another ME 109 about 800 yards astern and to the left. I immediately went into a steep right hand climbing turn at full throttle. The ME 109 tried to follow but after about 2

    turns he fell out of the turn completely stalled, and I turned down on his tail. He carried out a left hand climbing turn and he ded S.E. at full throttle. I immediately closed astern but slightly left and opened fire at approx 100

    yards. After two very short bursts I observed coolant pouring from the radiator... 92
    Leading Blue Section I was attacked by ME 109. After a steep right hand climbing turn the ME 109 with a Yellow nose fell out of the turn and I turned on to his tail. He rolled over and went vertically downwards and pulled out heading

    south east as soon as he straightened up. I gave him three short bursts. He burst into flames and after knocking off his roof bailed out. 93


    Combat-report-2LG[1].jpg

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Nobody will listen to combat reports. You will be told they all lied or they were mistaken or you deliberately chose the few reports where 109s caught fire.
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Roblex View Post
    Nobody will listen to combat reports. You will be told they all lied or they were mistaken or you deliberately chose the few reports where 109s caught fire.
    Questioning or not relying on combat reports is pretty reasonable, given todays psychological research... And no, with that I don`t want to argue for one side, but I am happy that TF first takes into account what can be interpreted from technical reports, etc...
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Continu0 View Post
    Questioning or not relying on combat reports is pretty reasonable, given todays psychological research... And no, with that I don`t want to argue for one side, but I am happy that TF first takes into account what can be interpreted from technical reports, etc...
    Well put Sir!
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Well put Sir!
    Physics and data first, anecdotal evidence taken with a grain of salt. Love the methodology of these guys.
    Last edited by trademe900; Apr-07-2014 at 04:43.

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    Veteran Combat pilot Wulf's Avatar
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Roblex View Post
    Nobody will listen to combat reports. You will be told they all lied or they were mistaken or you deliberately chose the few reports where 109s caught fire.

    I really don't see the point of this thread. Any WW 2 aircraft will burn.

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    The question is not why are the 109's catching fire allot

    but What position are you putting yourself into to make your 109 burst into flames


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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Basically, don't get shot.

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    Basically, don't get shot.
    +1
    Works every time

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    Basically, don't get shot.
    Hahaha don't get shot !! . In clod that's like saying go run in the rain but don't get wet

    But in clod there are tricks to not get as wet


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    Veteran Combat pilot Wulf's Avatar
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattias View Post
    +1
    Works every time

    yes there's always that I suppose or, you could just fly a CloD Spitfire.

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    Supporting Member 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)'s Avatar
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    yes there's always that I suppose or, you could just fly a CloD Spitfire.
    sounds like a date.

    You in a CloD spitfire. Hans Gruber in a 109.

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P) View Post
    sounds like a date.

    You in a CloD spitfire. Hans Gruber in a 109.

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P) View Post
    sounds like a date.

    You in a CloD spitfire. Hans Gruber in a 109.

    Well, if you want to get a Spitfire to catch fire and burn, I'd say you'd be well advised to enlist the support of Mr G. I can't think of anyone else who can do it.

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    Well, if you want to get a Spitfire to catch fire and burn, I'd say you'd be well advised to enlist the support of Mr G. I can't think of anyone else who can do it.
    I thought you were saying that the only way to avoid getting shot was to fly a spit...certain looked that way based on the preceding conversation...

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    Veteran Combat pilot Wulf's Avatar
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P) View Post
    I thought you were saying that the only way to avoid getting shot was to fly a spit...certain looked that way based on the preceding conversation...

    No, not at all. I just think it's a bit rich telling 109 blokes that they wouldn't catch fire if they didn't put themselves in situations where they get themselves shot. That just seems a bit disingenuous coming from people who are in the privileged position of being able to fly an aircraft that, as currently modeled, wouldn't catch fire if you took to it with a box of fire starters and a blow torch.
    Last edited by Wulf; Apr-07-2014 at 09:56.

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Your natural bias is now swinging into the realms of obsession Wulf. Next is fantasy and imagination, after that the men in white coats turn up. Try relaxing before you get all chewed up by it.

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Your natural bias is now swinging into the realms of obsession Wulf. Next is fantasy and imagination, after that the men in white coats turn up. Try relaxing before you get all chewed up by it.
    Are you suggesting that 'sensitivity to fire' is correctly modeled in the Spitfire? Is that your position?

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    Basically, don't get shot.
    +1 Independently from the DM discussion....

    If you get shot at, you did something wrong.
    If you did something wrong, is not the plane's fault.

    The real problem here is that since is just a game without consequences, one tends to be eager to get into a fight that in real life you would have ran away from.
    One typical example is climbing towards an enemy plane. The proper way to handle this would be to climb away from it and gain altitude advantage before engaging. I know I've done this and I would say that most of the time, if the enemy saw me, I got shot to pieces.

    Since is my mistake, I would not dare to blame the plane, DM, game, lag, cheater or INSERT_EXCUSE_HERE.

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    No, not at all. I just think it's a bit rich telling 109 blokes that they wouldn't catch fire if they didn't put themselves in situations where they get themselves shot. That just seems a bit disingenuous coming from people who are in the privileged position of being able to fly an aircraft that, as currently modeled, wouldn't catch fire if you took to it with a box of fire starters and a blow torch.
    +1

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    <herewegoagain

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritus_Mortem View Post
    <herewegoagain



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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritus_Mortem View Post
    <herewegoagain
    Yep. I don't know whether to or

    Cheers/m

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Fires are nice when the risk of fire is equal for all. By 1940 standards the Spitfire could be considered to be the least vulnerable of the 3 single engine fighters but again that is by early war standards. There is a big difference between less vulnerable and invincible. A few mm of armor plate is not going to matter against 20mm and the 109 Emil certainly did not have the reputation for fire like the Zeke. It's a bit hypocritical that this issue, introduced in 4.3 same as HE bug that led to so many pilot kills, is approached so differently. Why was the advise to red pilots not to simply avoid being shot? Instead a hotfix is rushed out to correct something that is obviously wrong. In my opinion this is something that is also obviously wrong. Let's hope TF adresses in due time.

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    Supporting Member 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)'s Avatar
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52 Hans Gruber View Post
    this issue, introduced in 4.3 .
    Hmmmmm, possibly the first time someone has said that... (atleast that I can recall)

    I was under the impression that;

    1. Spitfires had always been much harder to set alight since the early days, and
    2. 109s had previously been catching fire, it's just that the effects just weren't showing, or "activated" in some way - I think Mattias/ Kling know more about effects.

    The above, I thought/ guessed, was why the fire issue was considered a DM thing, and thus still relatively inaccessible to the FM/DM team... I might be wrong about this though.

    Incidentally, I've shot down around 10 109s since the hotfix, and am yet to see one burn. Not that this means much.. but maybe there is a little more parity now with the fuel tank armour thing that's ion the readme.

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    Are you suggesting that 'sensitivity to fire' is correctly modeled in the Spitfire? Is that your position?
    I've no idea mate, I don't fly the Spitfire.


    Gruber, you have taken the position that a light hearted quip with a smiley on it is the official policy of TF?


    I haven't flown much in the past 2 weeks so I've missed out on all this flaminero stuff, but it looks like it saved me from some PK's.
    Last edited by Osprey; Apr-07-2014 at 11:34.

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    Veteran Combat pilot Wulf's Avatar
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    +1 Independently from the DM discussion....

    If you get shot at, you did something wrong.
    If you did something wrong, is not the plane's fault.

    The real problem here is that since is just a game without consequences, one tends to be eager to get into a fight that in real life you would have ran away from.
    One typical example is climbing towards an enemy plane. The proper way to handle this would be to climb away from it and gain altitude advantage before engaging. I know I've done this and I would say that most of the time, if the enemy saw me, I got shot to pieces.

    Since is my mistake, I would not dare to blame the plane, DM, game, lag, cheater or INSERT_EXCUSE_HERE.

    This has nothing whatsoever to do with being shot down or doing something wrong and paying for it. Everyone gets shot down, no matter what you fly. However, there is a very significant disparity in the number of 109s that catch fire, and the number of Spits that catch fire. As far as I can tell, Spits don't catch fire at all - at least, not online they don't. Now, the problem with that situation, when it goes unacknowledged, is that it generates a perception that maybe other things are also not right. Historically, we know that Spits did burn and so one would imagine that they should do something similar in the game. But for whatever reason they don't and they haven't since day one. In fact, at one point we were actually being told that they do actually burn online, it's just that, we can't see the flames. Well I hate to go around quoting from classic Westerns but, as Fletcher said in Outlaw Jose Wales; "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."

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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Phil, how much was said about this topic in 4.0? Not a whole lot. Now with introduction of 4.3 you have several frag videos being posted of flaming 109s.

    The hotfix release notes are quite vague about which aircraft had fuel tank armor strengthened but buzz said previously that the Emil has no armor at all. Our testing of 4.312 saw the 109 & Hurricane are about equally vulnerable when the correct spot was targeted, lighting within seconds. The Spitfire required 100's of rounds of continuous fire to flame.

    edit: I am removing the video to protect the privacy of those involved. My apologies to them for posting without their permission.
    Last edited by 9./JG52 Hans Gruber; Apr-07-2014 at 15:46.

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    Supporting Member Vlerkies's Avatar
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    Interesting Gruber. Thanks for the vid, at least I know more or less where to (try) aim at.

    If you are referring to the other post about this topic Buzz did not say the 109's did not have armor, he said they did not have self sealing tanks in this period. Unless there is another post somewhere else I could well of missed.
    From Buzz
    -None of the 109E's had self sealing tanks at the time of the battle, and none of the 109E's AFAIK came from the factory with the tanks. Retroactively, it is possible the E model was fitted with them in 1941-42. The F model was the first 109 to have self sealing tanks, but the first versions did not. As protection, 109E's had a laminated Aluminum 'armour' sheet behind the fuel tank to deflect rounds.

    -Spit I and Hurri DH5-20 did not have self sealing tanks and had no protection over the tanks

    -Early Spit IA and Hurri Rotol did not have self sealing tanks but did have thin aluminum sheet 'armour' fitted over the tanks. Beginning in mid September, self Sealing tanks were retro-actively fitted. The schedule for this work is not clear, the weight of these early self sealing tanks is not clear, and at the moment we don't have a 'late' versions of these aircraft with self sealing tanks in the game.

    -Spitfire IIA's came from the factory with self sealing tanks.
    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...l=1#post109727

    So maybe it's my bias coming through here or just logic, choose whichever one you wish, I think the 109 burns to easy all things considered, the Hurricane not, and the Spitfire well, the force is strong with that flying machine.
    Fire in a 109 is pretty much a pk but a rare sight online for the RAF (my perception, or bias, call it what you will)
    Anyway Dowding himself was very concerned at the rate pilots were getting burnt/killed as a result of fires and was the driving force behind the initial makeshift modifications of the tanks and wrapping them in fireproof materials.
    A bit lazy to look it up now, but even the Spitfire, only one (lower) of the 2 front tanks was protected, the other (top) was completely exposed, the thought process being the top tank would empty itself on the way to the fight so to speak.

    Its all interesting stuff, and if there was ever any doubt about these planes (amongst others later in the war) being susceptible to burning, just lookup the 'Guinea Pig Club' or 'East Grinstead the town that did not stare'.
    Seriously sobering stuff and a firm kick in the pants back to reality about the discussion at hand.
    So lets please try and at least conduct the discussion respectfully, thx.
    Last edited by Vlerkies; Apr-07-2014 at 13:04.
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    Re: TF probably have Bf 109 fires correct

    I'll stick to my Hurricane thanks, and avoid getting shot. I like to pretend its a sim, not a game. Lots of lovely clouds to hide in these days.

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