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Thread: Spitfire on fire!!!

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Talisman View Post
    It would appear that many RAF fighter pilots seem to have survived fuel tank fires during the BoB, but I am not aware of accounts of many LW 109 pilots surviving fuel tank fires; has anyone seen evidence of many BoB 109 pilots surviving fuel tank fires?
    An odd question.
    It would appear that many RAF fighter pilots indeed did survive fires. The strange thing is though, the RAF don't seem to catch fire in Cliffs
    How quaint
    Last edited by Vlerkies; Jul-28-2014 at 12:22.
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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    I think Talisman's question relates to an earlier expressed concern that the Clod 109 pilots die too quickly and have no time to bail out. For those who measure their kill/death ratios or even their mission survival rate I can see how this would have a bearing.


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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    I have (only twice) got my 109 tank on fire and didn't get any burns. I did end up without any fuel in a few seconds though

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    An odd question.
    It would appear that many RAF fighter pilots indeed did survive fires. The strange thing is though, the RAF don't seem to catch fire in Cliffs
    How quaint
    Have you been flying a different version of CloD then? Also, have you not seen pictures and vids?

    P.S. I find that I see very few 109 fuel tank fires in on line servers these days. Possibly because more 109 pilots are taking less risks in dogfights with the RAF (flying a little bit more realistically perhaps), although I suspect they will still be taking far more risks than the real life BoB LW fighter pilots did.

    Also, you might find that if servers provided more BoB type scenarios, like they used to, with RAF fighters trying to attack formations of AI bombers protected by LW fighters, you might find the RAF fighters having to take more risks than they currently do, resulting in more kills, including Spit and Hurry fuel tank fires, for LW fighters as they would then have more of the advantage that they actually had in the BoB.

    Remember that the ATAG map scenarios do not give us the actual tactical situation of the BoB. So the RAF and LW in Cliffs is not fighting like the actual BoB. Bf 109 aircraft dropping in from altitude on lower flying RAF fighters trying to attack bombers in the BoB is likely to have provided a lot of opportunity for fuel tanks to get hit on the RAF side; we don't get that sort of thing much in Cliffs though.

    Happy landings,

    Talisman

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    I have (only twice) got my 109 tank on fire and didn't get any burns. I did end up without any fuel in a few seconds though
    That is 2 more fuel tank fires than I have ever had when flying a 109, but then I try not tend to take too many risks. However, if I was to approach my flying as more of a game than a sim, then I would probably have crashed and burned a lot more. The only fires I have experienced have been in the Hurry, Spit, Me 110, JU88 and Blenny; never the Bf 109.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    You are both clearly 109 Uber gods then and I am imagining it all.

    Cheerio.
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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Maybe the answer lies in the way the 109 attacks RAF planes in conjunction with the position of the fuel tanks in spits:

    To my experience, in order to put a fueltank on fire, it needs to be punctured first. The 109 guns aren't known for their firing rate and maybe the M-Geschoss doesn't ignite on first hit (or with lesser chance, don't know the code). Perhaps people just don't get enough igniting ammunition in the proper place due to the on target time they have on spits (dodgy buggers they are). Also remember the way 109s usually attack their opponents. Staying time on target is usually short compared to the RAF planes who pretty much hose their opponents.

    Perhaps the reduced ratios of fires in RAF planes stems from before a fueltank gets hit, the plane already suffered enough critical hits that it had to be abandoned (control cables, I'm looking at you) which would of course reduce the ratio of noticed burning defeats (as putting stuff on fire requires concentrated fire for a comparatively long stretch of time).

    It could very well be circumstances outside of the damage modelling that reduce the chance of a 109 putting their opponent on fire... And to draw a line below it all: 109 can put RAF planes down well enough, whether they burn or not.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    I regularly get PK'd (The Black Screen of Death) by 109's. When that happens I usually ALT F2 to morbidly watch my Spitfire's demise. Busted up, yes. In flames -- never. Logic tells me that the proximity of the fuel tanks behind the instrument panel should erupt in massive flames with all that explosive cannon fire and armour piercing flying about the cockpit area. Not every time perhaps, but probably more often than naught. I'm dead anyway, but the pyrotechnics should be there. In short, based on my misadventures, Spitfires should be in flames far more often than what we're seeing online just based on the odds of fuel tanks being punctured and ignited.

    WRT survivability of 109 fires (in fact, all aircraft). If the 109 blows up outright, then it's likely game over for the pilot. But if it's a flamer, then I think there should be in many/most cases time for a quick-thinking pilot to jettison the hood and bail -- say 5 - 10 seconds? This could be accompanied by a rapidly reddened screen to represent injury by burns, but the pilot survives. Dawdling pilots will see the red screen rapidly get darker towards The Black Screen of Death.

    Just my thoughts.
    Last edited by ATAG_Snapper; Jul-29-2014 at 10:12.


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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    I regularly get PK'd (The Black Screen of Death) by 109's. When that happens I usually ALT F2 to morbidly watch my Spitfire's demise. Busted up, yes. In flames -- never. Logic tells me that the proximity of the fuel tanks behind the instrument panel should erupt in massive flames with all that explosive cannon fire and armour piercing flying about the cockpit area. Not every time perhaps, but probably more often than naught. I'm dead anyway, but the pyrotechnics should be there. In short, based on my misadventures, Spitfires should be in flames far more often than what we're seeing online just based on the odds of fuel tanks being punctured and ignited.

    WRT survivability of 109 fires (in fact, all aircraft). If the 109 blows up outright, then it's likely game over for the pilot. But if it's a flamer, then I think there should be in many/most cases time for a quick-thinking pilot to jettison the hood and bail -- say 5 - 10 seconds? This could be accompanied by a rapidly reddened screen to represent injury by burns, but the pilot survives. Dawdling pilots will see the red screen rapidly get darker towards The Black Screen of Death.

    Just my thoughts.
    I concur.

    As I have posted in other similar discussions, I believe that our observations are very affected by the ammunition factor.

    The red planes are way more effective in setting afire planes, because of the De Wilde ammo.

    Blue can set afire too, if used the correct ammo & combo & timing but it's less effective (which I don't find wrong at all).

    The problem may well be in the quantity of De Wilde carried. We all know that historically should be 1/8 o2 2/8, but there is nothing that can be done (AFAIK) to avoid non historical ammo loads.

    You can limit the number of certain models of planes, and such, but the squadron stores I don't think so.

    So yes the blues miss this nice effect, but as it is eye candy I think we can live with it. (learning to jump un historically fast when burning LOL)

    S!

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Talisman View Post

    P.S. I find that I see very few 109 fuel tank fires in on line servers these days. Possibly because more 109 pilots are taking less risks in dogfights with the RAF (flying a little bit more realistically perhaps), although I suspect they will still be taking far more risks than the real life BoB LW fighter pilots did.



    Talisman

    This.

    When the patch came out I died twice in a row burned.

    Now I can't honestly remember the last time I did.

    Or the code changed magically in my PC, or I adapted.

    The funny thing is that you adapt yourself to the new threats and you hardly notice it We are humans and our brains play funny tricks on us.


    S!

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    I regularly get PK'd (The Black Screen of Death) by 109's. When that happens I usually ALT F2 to morbidly watch my Spitfire's demise. Busted up, yes. In flames -- never. Logic tells me that the proximity of the fuel tanks behind the instrument panel should erupt in massive flames with all that explosive cannon fire and armour piercing flying about the cockpit area. Not every time perhaps, but probably more often than naught. I'm dead anyway, but the pyrotechnics should be there. In short, based on my misadventures, Spitfires should be in flames far more often than what we're seeing online just based on the odds of fuel tanks being punctured and ignited.

    WRT survivability of 109 fires (in fact, all aircraft). If the 109 blows up outright, then it's likely game over for the pilot. But if it's a flamer, then I think there should be in many/most cases time for a quick-thinking pilot to jettison the hood and bail -- say 5 - 10 seconds? This could be accompanied by a rapidly reddened screen to represent injury by burns, but the pilot survives. Dawdling pilots will see the red screen rapidly get darker towards The Black Screen of Death.

    Just my thoughts.
    Don't know how well things are modelled in CloD but remember: In order for that fuel in your tank to burn, it needs oxygen. An AP bullet entering your tank will cause a leak but it likely won't ignite as there's probably not enough air around it. Also at the moment it sparks, when it connects with a metal surface, there's no fuel around it. A combustible mixture needs a second to form before a second spark can ignite the runaway fire.

    Don't tell me you're being cockpit hosed by 109s for a second straight on a regular basis, Snapper
    Last edited by arglmauf; Jul-29-2014 at 10:42.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SG1_Lud View Post
    This.

    When the patch came out I died twice in a row burned.

    Now I can't honestly remember the last time I did.

    Or the code changed magically in my PC, or I adapted.

    The funny thing is that you adapt yourself to the new threats and you hardly notice it We are humans and our brains play funny tricks on us.


    S!
    Or, you just fly once a month on ATAG
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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Or, you just fly once a month on ATAG
    Hi Vlerkies: You spy me? LOL
    +2000 hours, I am holidays now and I dont fly.

    Cheers!

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=4036&dateline=1382347  940

    If it's brown, shoot it down!

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by arglmauf View Post
    Don't know how well things are modelled in CloD but remember: In order for that fuel in your tank to burn, it needs oxygen. An AP bullet entering your tank will cause a leak but it likely won't ignite as there's probably not enough air around it. Also at the moment it sparks, when it connects with a metal surface, there's no fuel around it. A combustible mixture needs a second to form before a second spark can ignite the runaway fire.

    Don't tell me you're being cockpit hosed by 109s for a second straight on a regular basis, Snapper
    That's why I mentioned exploding cannon fire in the cockpit. Do you not think that would provide a sufficient ignition source for 100 octane petrol spraying the cockpit? LOL

    When you fly online on the ATAG Server, you'll find there are lots of ways to die in a Spitfire. It's a feature.


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    Last edited by arglmauf; Jul-29-2014 at 11:15.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    I remember somebody mentioned that the Spit had a lot of armour around it's fuel tank, that could be pierced by AP 20mm but not the minengeschoss... Now who here honestly uses a 20mm AP? not me And bullets won't cut it. So you'd need 20mm AP + HE + minengeschoss to get a chance of a spittie fire. But honestly I've only seen a "small" spit fire once in MP.

    Anyway I also remember there's a review coming up of the fuel tank armour for both planes in the next patch.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    from an old post for interest only.

    Decisive Duel


    The BoB: Myth and Reality



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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by hnbdgr View Post
    Now who here honestly uses a 20mm AP?

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    LOL Karaya.

    Never fear, a 20mm anything is devastating.

    I just fly an E1 with pop gun ammo
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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    Ha, maybe that's the secret then which ones are you using exactly? you might start a new trend.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Panzerbrandgranate (API)
    Brandgranate (I)
    3xMinengeschoss (HE high cap.)

    for the FF/M

    4x Sprenggranate (HE)
    1x Panzergranate (AP)

    for the FF

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Perhaps the Luftwaffe pilots here would see more flaming RAF fighters if the very same RAF fighters took more to the Hurricane! Aircraft ratio is very often completely skewed 3:1 for the Spitfires, something which is a bit of a bugbear for me (and I assume many others).

    My Hurricane has no problem alighting itself when a 109 shuffles nearby.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Ive managed to light small fires in the engines of spits by hitting them with API machine-gun rounds in the 109 directly to the engine.
    However just today I pulled this off:

    Thats one crispy Hurri

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leifr View Post
    Perhaps the Luftwaffe pilots here would see more flaming RAF fighters if the very same RAF fighters took more to the Hurricane! Aircraft ratio is very often completely skewed 3:1 for the Spitfires, something which is a bit of a bugbear for me (and I assume many others).

    My Hurricane has no problem alighting itself when a 109 shuffles nearby.
    Realistic Ratios for both sides would be nice, but it requires a custom script to be put in by the mission builder. noone is able to do such a thing atm.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leifr View Post
    Perhaps the Luftwaffe pilots here would see more flaming RAF fighters if the very same RAF fighters took more to the Hurricane! Aircraft ratio is very often completely skewed 3:1 for the Spitfires, something which is a bit of a bugbear for me (and I assume many others).

    My Hurricane has no problem alighting itself when a 109 shuffles nearby.
    The ratio of LW bombers and 2 engine fighters in the BoB would mean less single seat fighters available for the blue side, so I don't think an historic ratio would be very popular. If you split a server of 100 pilot slots to 50 aircraft for blue and 50 aircraft for red (or perhaps less for red, as the RAF was outnumbered) and then took into account that the LW used more bombers than fighters because it was attacking with a bombing campaign, then a lot of people might be put off. Especially if people wanted to fly a LW single engine fighter but there was only bomber pilot slots left. Red would likely have 100% of its slots for single engine fighter aircraft, as the BoB was a defensive action by RAF Fighter Command, so red players hoping to fly an RAF bomber might be disappointed. Setting a ratio might be good for a set of server campaign missions, but not for a general sand box server.
    Last edited by Talisman; Jul-31-2014 at 09:52.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by indyscout View Post
    Ive managed to light small fires in the engines of spits by hitting them with API machine-gun rounds in the 109 directly to the engine.
    However just today I pulled this off:

    Thats one crispy Hurri
    Nice kill with that Spitfire in a fire ball too as shown by the picture with your signature at the bottom of your first post. Has any one seen a Bf 109 fuel tank explode like that when set on fire by a Spit or Hurry since recent patches? Yes, they burn, but 109 fuel tanks don't seem to explode. Or am I wrong about that?

    I seem to remember that you could hit a 109 fuel tank with a Spit or Hurry early on in CloD and the 109 would explode. When it did though, nothing much would happen and it would fly on as though no explosion had taken place. There is now some benefit from a hitting the Bf 109 in the fuel tank, after a long time waiting for it (well done TF) but no explosion. Should we see more explosions if fuel tanks are hit, on all aircraft, or not?
    Last edited by Talisman; Jul-31-2014 at 10:13.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Talisman View Post
    The ratio of LW bombers and 2 engine fighters in the BoB would mean less single seat fighters available for the blue side, so I don't think an historic ratio would be very popular. If you split a server of 100 pilot slots to 50 aircraft for blue and 50 aircraft for red (or perhaps less for red, as the RAF was outnumbered) and then took into account that the LW used more bombers than fighters because it was attacking with a bombing campaign, then a lot of people might be put off. Especially if people wanted to fly a LW single engine fighter but there was only bomber pilot slots left. Red would likely have 100% of its slots for single engine fighter aircraft, as the BoB was a defensive action by RAF Fighter Command, so red players hoping to fly an RAF bomber might be disappointed. Setting a ratio might be good for a set of server campaign missions, but not for a general sand box server.
    It would be a hotly discussed topic and there would be many people that would disagree for sure. My take is that in a "completely ideal world" we could consider only putting limitations on fighters and don't touch the bombers (they would be AI and still available to fly) - the only problem would be bf110's as the ratio of twin to single fighters was 2:8 i believe and it's not a very popular aircraft to fly.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    OT

    The ratio of LW bombers and 2 engine fighters in the BoB...
    Depends on day/attack:

    September, 7

    Bombers - 348
    Fighters - 617 (both types)

    September, 15 Midday Attack

    Bombers - 25
    Fighters - 171 (both types)

    This attack was meet by 254 RAF fighters.

    The 25 Do17 of KG76 Dornier's fight a epic battle - be his luck at some stage with the ineffective Balbo "circus" - Leigh-Mallory's/Badder "Big Wing", more occupied in dont collide with each other, than hit the bombers.

    15 Dorniers returning to France after bombing his targets (London docks) - four others had try return before.

    They lost six bombers (24%), include the famous Zehbe's F1+FH, the one rammed by Sergeant Raymond Towers Holmes - and the myth that his target where Buckingham Palace.

    as the BoB was a defensive action by RAF Fighter Command, so red players hoping to fly an RAF bomber might be disappointed.
    About 2/3 of missions flow by Bomber Command during BoB period was against Channel ports, "Sea Lion" invasion barges, German airfields in France and Belgium. One can say in support of Fighter Command.

    Numbers from this book - that use references/researchs of several other books written before:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Most-Dan.../dp/1845134818



    Myth - The RAF fighters were hopelessly outnumbered by the Luftwaffe fighters.
    At the beginning of the battle the RAF had approximately 650 fighters whereas the Luftwaffe had about 1000 - if one includes twin-engined Me-110s.
    By the end of the battle the RAF had over 700 fighters, and the Luftwaffe had fewer than 300.
    Numbers based on serviceable aircraft (~80% in Luftwaffe ~84% in RAF).

    Sokol1
    Last edited by 1lokos; Jul-31-2014 at 11:33.

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    Re: Spitfire on fire!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by hnbdgr View Post
    Realistic Ratios for both sides would be nice, but it requires a custom script to be put in by the mission builder. noone is able to do such a thing atm.
    Really? I could have sworn I've seen it in at least two missions.

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