Spitfire vs Hurricane - comparison

[Chaos]

Hello and welcome!

The day when I connect to ATAG online is coming. After short self-preparation like getting familiar with simulator and hard-studying different threads on this forum I've decided to become a RAF pilot I'm not going to ask you which plane is better. However, I would like to know your opinion guys: how does spitfire/hurricane present in online dogfight? What are the pros and cons of flying each aircraft in your opinion? Moreover, in which parts of battle the spit/hurri is better than the Axis planes (from your autopsy)?

As a Newbie, I got to know that bf 109 need to manage its energy in order to stay alive and get a kill. From the other hand, the Allies are better in maneuvers. Is that really right?

Well, I hope a free discussion will allow me and others student pilots get to know these machines better. That's why I decided to post a new thread. Feel free to be a part in this exchange even if you have more similar questions.

Best regards and sorry for bad english,
Chaos

[hnbdgr]

Hello and welcome!

The day when I connect to ATAG online is coming. After short self-preparation like getting familiar with simulator and hard-studying different threads on this forum I've decided to become a RAF pilot I'm not going to ask you which plane is better. However, I would like to know your opinion guys: how does spitfire/hurricane present in online dogfight? What are the pros and cons of flying each aircraft in your opinion? Moreover, in which parts of battle the spit/hurri is better than the Axis planes (from your autopsy)?

As a Newbie, I got to know that bf 109 need to manage its energy in order to stay alive and get a kill. From the other hand, the Allies are better in maneuvers. Is that really right?

Well, I hope a free discussion will allow me and others student pilots get to know these machines better. That's why I decided to post a new thread. Feel free to be a part in this exchange even if you have more similar questions.

Best regards and sorry for bad english,
Chaos

Hi Chaos! Welcome to the game.

here i found this avatar, I thought you might like it :

9536-106a.jpg

General guidelines:

Hurricane Pros:

- Good turning rate (better than spitfire)
- a good weapons platform, practically doesn't move when you shoot.
- can absorb a lot of damage
- easy to fly and land (easier then the spit)
- hydraulic flaps

Hurricane Cons

- slower then the spit or 109
- bad cockpit visibility (though you can open your cockpit in flight and negate that)
- bad climber
- carburetors cut out under negative G (needs to turn over to follow a dive without speed loss)
- doesn't accelerate as quickly in dive
- Maximum Dive Speed: 390 mph (628 kmh)

Spitfire Pros:

- Climbs on par with 109 for the most part, except higher altitudes
- Just as fast as the 109 with boost cutout on the deck
- good turning rate in speeds above 200mph
- good cockpit visibility
- good speed retention
- good acceleration
- easy to fly and land
- hydraulic flaps

Spitfire Cons:

- slightly worse performer than the 109 speedwise and climbwise at certain altitudes
- carburetors cut out under negative G (needs to turn over to follow a dive without speed loss)
- doesn't accelerate as quickly in dive
- difficult to fly with discipline (excessive turning)
- Maximum Dive Speed: 420 mph (676 kmh)


bf 109 pros:

- best climber in game (depending on model, generally E3/b or E4/b and E4/N)
- fastest single seat fighter in most situations (margins are incredibly small sometimes though watch out!)
- gains speed quickly in a dive
- powerful (if not terribly accurate) armament
- Maximum Dive Speed: 750 kmh (466 mph) *I marked it as a pro, because it's the highest allowed dive speed in-game.

bf 109 cons:

- poor speed retention
- poor turning radius(unless under 200mph, then you can match the spit)
- bad cockpit visibility (slightly better then the hurricane)
- difficult to land
- manual hand-turned flaps
- manual pitch adjustment on E-1 and E-3 needed (which along with rad temperatures makes for a more complex CEM)
- Rads - whilst airframe can take a relatively large beating(small calibre), it only takes 3-5 bullets to perforate your rads
- cannons have different round trajectory to bullets (Also: E-3 have different(slower) canons to E-4 versions) - takes a while to learn how to aim properly
- difficult to fly with discipline (keeping turning to a minimum)

Hope this helps! There are other planes to try and tame, but to be honest I found the 3 listed here are more then I can handle at times.

[ATAG_Lewis]

Great post HoneyBadger....~S~

I would add....Visibility trumps all....If you can see the enemy before he sees you then you can take the correct action...this will save your life and get you kills too..So constantly check your environment for contacts...and once you have visual on an enemy..do not loose visual...and here's the rub...whilst still checking for other enemy...lol

In any flight sim the fastest aircraft or energy fighter is the top dog....This is because the fastest aircraft can choose when to fight and when to outrun....If the fastest aircraft is flown to its potential it is up to the slower aircraft to try to neutralise this potential by taking evasive manoeuvres and trying to force a mistake...As a Spit or Hurri pilot that is your goal...The fun is trying to do this....In CLOD the speed differences are slight so a good energy fighter has a small window within to flight...The best energy fighters can do this and deserve a great deal of respect....

Also try this setup for a Basic CEM...This will get you dogfighting without having to worry about the CEM..

Easy Allied CEM for New Players

[Chaos]

here i found this avatar, I thought you might like it

Thank you Sir! Just set it Thanks for a legible comparison.
It seems to me that Hurricane is easier to fly for Newbies but combat may be a bit demanding and frustraiting. However, I will try as soon as I'm able to connect. Bf 109 is still outside of my skills I think that's why I'm not going to try it at the beginning of my career.

and once you have visual on an enemy..do not loose visual...and here's the rub...whilst still checking for other enemy...lol

Yup, but I still have some problems... usually I lose visual when the background of my contact is...water. Not sure whether it's caused by a screen or it's quite frequent problem. In addition, we have to be careful with our six. And I'm excessively sensitive to that fact.

Also try this setup for a Basic CEM...This will get you dogfighting without having to worry about the CEM..

I've studied your thread Lewis really hard. May you tell me: does any speed limitation (especially lower) exist with this setup? So far, I was decreasing prop pitch during diving in order to reduce drag caused by propeller and increasing prop pitch when climbing (not sure if it's good idea because the plane slows quickly). With your setup... what speed is optimal during maneuvering against for example bf 109?

Thanks for feedback guys!

[ATAG_Colander]

what speed is optimal during maneuvering against for example bf 109?

Is not about speed as much as it is about Energy.
If the 109 has an E advantage over you, you will have to basically try to avoid his attacks until he makes a mistake and looses his E.
If you have the same E or more, the 109 is pretty much screwed (same applies in a lesser extent to the spit).

[Chaos]

How we can recognise this moment when enemy run out of his energy?
And.. returing to comparison: am I understand it correctly that hurricane is easier for the beginners in avoiding bf's attacks because of turning rate? Of course it depends on our sense of aircraft but firstly we have to gain some experience. Well... conclusion number 1: if we don't surprise an enemy our battle begins in defensive stance because bf 109 usually has an E advantage.

[ATAG_Colander]

How we can recognise this moment when enemy run out of his energy?

When you both have the same speed and the 109 is not 2000 meters (6500 feet) above you

[hnbdgr]

How we can recognise this moment when enemy run out of his energy?
And.. returing to comparison: am I understand it correctly that hurricane is easier for the beginners in avoiding bf's attacks because of turning rate? Of course it depends on our sense of aircraft but firstly we have to gain some experience. Well... conclusion number 1: if we don't surprise an enemy our battle begins in defensive stance because bf 109 usually has an E advantage.

Ha! You adopted the avatar, cool

Yes basically a hurri will outturn the bf109 everytime, but don't expect to be able to catch him. Your best chance is to find a furball - usually over targets like ships - and come in with a decent height advantage and see if you can pick off 109's that are chasing someone else already. Once you are outnumbered though it will be difficult for you to run away. you will have to fight and stay unless you've mastered evasion tactics. I know a favoured tactic for veteran players if they are flying solo is to get an alt advantage (22k ft) and check the usual vector of approach of 109's, scanning from their point of origin towards targets. That way you're likely to find one that is climbing to get an alt advantage and perhaps bounce him.

Otherwise, the red TS is always full of people happy to help. Blues are more lone wolfs (including me ), but you do get some deadly schwarms of 4+ 109's like JG4 and others.

Lastly, in combat (virtual that is) things happen quickly, sometimes far too quickly for any kind of thinking to actually take place between oh shit - and - I'm dead. Your best bet is to practice and get certain procedures and tactics in your muscle memory so you don't think about them when you have to use them. It's difficult to do and you will get shot down many times, but that's how you learn.

Good luck, see you up there sometime!

[AKA_Knutsac]

"Rads - whilst airframe can take a relatively large beating(small calibre), it only takes 3-5 bullets to perforate your rads"

I would rephrase this 109 "con" as a Spit/Hurri "pro". I don't believe there's evidence of an inherent weakness of the 109 rad, but that the high cyclic rate of eight British guns just increases the probability that a .303 bullet will find the 109 coolant system (or that of any water-cooled a/c).

~S~

AKA Knutsac

[hnbdgr]

"Rads - whilst airframe can take a relatively large beating(small calibre), it only takes 3-5 bullets to perforate your rads"

I would rephrase this 109 "con" as a Spit/Hurri "pro". I don't believe there's evidence of an inherent weakness of the 109 rad, but that the high cyclic rate of eight British guns just increases the probability that a .303 bullet will find the 109 coolant system (or that of any water-cooled a/c).

~S~

AKA Knutsac

I guess it's a matter of opinion. Vlerkies commented in another thread:

There are numerous accounts of 109's down over Britain with just 2 or 3 303 holes in the rads that forced the pilot to ditch.
The rads were interconnected and rubbish.
Pilots in BoB were asking for them to be armored but requests fell on deaf ears.
Later variants had a cut off valve in the cockpit that allowed you to isolate the damaged rad and fly perfectly fine at reduced power to get home.

It really was a massive weakness in the 109 in combat during Bob.

I'm leaning towards it being a weak spot, even if a single canon shell were to hit the relatively large rad, the fluid would still run out pretty quickly from both.

[AKA_Wiley]

S! Radiator damage is and was always a problem for liquid cooled AC engines,theres no way around it except to armour the rads but for a fighter AC the weight penalty was to high to implement,as for the 109 radiator cutoff valves,these radiator cutoff valves were not installed on the production line but were delivered to frontline units as kits to be installed in the AC for some unexplained reason the retrofitting of the cutoff valves was restricted the "F" series they were neither fitted to the following "G" series during production nor were they made available as kits,for some obscure reason the number of kits was very limited, when a 109 equipped with the valves went down in german held territory it was a race to the downed 109 by all nearby 109 units to recover the coveted valves for their own use.

[AKA_Knutsac]

Has anyone done a Spit v. Spit test to see if the Spit cooling system is as vulnerable as the 109 when at the receiving end of eight 1,200 rpm machine guns? I still suspect the shear number of British projectiles, any one of which can damage the cooling system, has more to do with our observed 109 cooling failures than any inherent flaw in the German system. I assume since both a/c had similar HP engines, they would have similar cooling needs (eg. radiator size), just that in the Spit it was a single larger rad v. the 109's two smaller rads...I'll defer to the experts if this is incorrect. And I assume that even if the 109 pilot could isolate a leak in one rad or the other, the performance of his engine would be greatly limited since he will have lost half his cooling capacity. Enjoying the discussion.

~S~

AKA Knutsac

[ATAG_Colander]

There's more to it than the number of projectiles...
- The 109 has 2 rads, not only 1. This alone doubles the chances of being hit on the rads.
- The spit is typically turning hence the rad is "protected" under the wing.
- The 109 is normally above a spit so the spit will have a clear view of the 2 rads.

Now add to that the number of bullets and chances are 1 will hit the rads

[Chaos]

- The spit is typically turning hence the rad is "protected" under the wing.

One question... Is it possible to damage Spitfire's radiator through the wing? MG's bullets are quite large, shooting through spit's wing shouldn't be a challenge. Or maybe the CloD's damage model doesn't consider it?

[ATAG_Colander]

It is and it does happen.

[Osprey]

Just to get back on topic, namely spit vs 109 rather than that long old and boring 109 rads argument........as a Hurricane pilot I'm pretty sure I can't out turn a Spitfire in a sustained turn fight at any speed, I even have doubts about initial turn. The only place to really get an 'online feel' for this outside of dedicated testing is in AX, where the type is on both sides.

Do others find this? Is there some data I can check to see if it's me or if the Spitfire will out-turn the Hurricane. If so, is there supporting evidence because I've only ever read of the contrary.

thanks

PS Chaos, the Hurricane is a killer, we have 2 squadrons of Hurricane pilots so if you do fancy it but aren't so sure just look us up and we can give you some help. I don't know of many moving from the Hurricane once they get a taste of what she can do.

[hnbdgr]

Hmm... not sure If I'm in a 109 I will sometimes be tempted to turn with a spit for a brief moment to get a gun solution. I will not follow a hurri in a turn though - maybe it's me thinking he turns better so I won't achieve anything if i follow, who knows, maybe it's just allied propaganda doing it's dirty work! When I fly red, I fly spit 99% of the time, can't really compare the turn rates with hurris accurately yet.

edit: I've added 3 more points regarding speed limits to my original comparison post

[ATAG_Septic]

Just to get back on topic, namely spit vs 109 rather than that long old and boring 109 rads argument........as a Hurricane pilot I'm pretty sure I can't out turn a Spitfire in a sustained turn fight at any speed, I even have doubts about initial turn. The only place to really get an 'online feel' for this outside of dedicated testing is in AX, where the type is on both sides.

Do others find this? Is there some data I can check to see if it's me or if the Spitfire will out-turn the Hurricane. If so, is there supporting evidence because I've only ever read of the contrary.

Hi Osprey,

This is what I found testing Spit v Hurri with Lolsav a while ago.

Spit 1a 100oct v Hurricane Rotol 100oct

Hurricane in front

187mph/300kmh Very close, no real advantage until 3rd turn when Spit seemed to have the upper hand, just. Hurricane engine blew first on 5th turn.

250mph/400kmh Spit pulled well inside on first turn, then Hurricane pulled lead on second, Spit pulled lead on 3rd turn. Circles probably a little elliptical but we tried to mitigate this as much as possible. Spit had an advantage on fourth turn then Hurricane engine blew.

Impression was that the Spit was slightly stronger but difficult to prove due to engine failure on the Hurricane.

This was with an RC build close to final release and some changes might have been made subsequently. We were given required engine and rad settings so we didn't mitigate the engine over-heat during the test. We swopped aircraft and repeated tests with similar result.

Septic.

[trademe900]

Hurricane had the lowest wing loading at 23lb ft sq and higher lift profile and so could do the tightest sustained turns. Spitfire wing loading is just slightly higher and can't keep a high angle of attack turn so well but it has a smaller drag profile and so will keep energy in a higher speed-low angle of attack turn.

That's the technical side of it. In practice this is reflected by the fact I will not go into battles with Hurricanes in G.50s but can hand it to Spits often without too much difficulty. They carry too much angle of attack in the lower speed turns and start 'skidding', where the G.50 can then dominate. Douglas Bader, both Spitfire and Hurricane pilot has also commented on this.

[Chaos]

PS Chaos, the Hurricane is a killer, we have 2 squadrons of Hurricane pilots so if you do fancy it but aren't so sure just look us up and we can give you some help. I don't know of many moving from the Hurricane once they get a taste of what she can do.

Thanks buddy! I change my living place tomorrow, there should be better net connection. For sure I will find you guys and look how you fly. I take any advices with pleasure. I was an easy target for messerschmits on ATAG 2 days ago

[FZG_Immel]

It is and it does happen.

On the other hand I have a video made on the atag server in which I fly a 109 E4 with only minengeschosss rounds in which I send a 20mm right into the spit rad from 6oclock, in which you see the explosion on the radiator, without any kind of damage..

I suspect the minengeschoss shrapnells and damages aren't well modeled yet. Maybe online, the explosion happen real behind the plane, which because of the latency has moved from the point of impact.

[hnbdgr]

On the other hand I have a video made on the atag server in which I fly a 109 E4 with only minengeschosss rounds in which I send a 20mm right into the spit rad from 6oclock, in which you see the explosion on the radiator, without any kind of damage..

I suspect the minengeschoss shrapnells and damages aren't well modeled yet. Maybe online, the explosion happen real behind the plane, which because of the latency has moved from the point of impact.

I think the issue is deeper, there is a disparity between offline and online DM. the issue is currently being looked at by TF. My hope is it gets sorted for TF 5.0