Chivalry, mercy and being a gentleman.

[Black034]

First of all, lemme get this disclaimer out:

I understand the "fever" you have for your first kills.
Desperately trying to get that bogey in your crosshairs and making sure he gets down is something all (especially new) pilots do from time to time.

However lately, I'm beginning to notice an increase in pilots (side doesn't matter) following a single completely wrecked AC all the way to the other side of the channel only to strafe him on an emergency landing. Bumping their noses into their tails and unleashing everything they have only to be gang-banged later with no ammo and busted controlls.
Or players spawning in, rushing alone towards the nearest enemy airbase in a single engine fighter only to strafe and die.
Then immediately respawn and be back within 5 minutes to try again.

~

I had a funny encounter with a Spit pilot the other day, who after I bounched him started streaming all sorts of liquids.
Followed his high 5 'o clock and after seeing him check his six, I waggled my wings and decided to let him go since he was running home anyway.
Instead of landing, getting a new bird and regrouping with his buddies.. he thought it would be a good idea to pull of a reversal and mid-stall spray some MGs at me from a kilometer away only to crash and die as he spiralled towards the ground.

I'm aware this is allowed by server rules, I'm just completely oblivious to what makes people do this?
For example strafing enemy runways won't make you win the game, it just makes more people come after you. Last night I witnessed 6 109s shoulder shooting a lone vulcher into the ground after he made 2 VERY bad attack runs.
And it wasn't like he was softening up the field for his friendly bombers to come in or anything.
It's almost like I'm playing WarThunder but with a better map and flightmodels..

What's the fun in doing things like this? Or could it be frustration maybe?
Maybe we need respawn times to make people think more about preserving their AC.

The Battlefield 2 mod; Project Reality pulled this off very nicely, the more you die within a certain timeframe.. the longer the respawn time will be!
2 minutes even!

Does anyone else share my thoughts or am I just a dumb pussy?

[FZG_Immel]

I don't attack planes landing.

I don't attack planes spawning on the ground.

I don't attack planes taking off.

I don't attack planes heavily damaged and apparently going down anyway.

(There are exceptions to the rules, of course. It has happened me to shoot at a diving bomber without noticing that the crew had bailed before, or I have killed a spitfire landing at English point, out of fuel, after that guy had shot my ju-88 taking off at Tramecourt 20min before, and killed me on the ground after shooting me while I crashlanded there.. I wanted this guy dead. Bad. I spawned again in a 109 and chased him down until he was dead)


You might have seen me passing you and waving wings as a salute instead. (Yet I scored 389 kills in 388 sorties last month, so it's not required to rack up kills.)

Unfortunately, this is a rare behavior. I still have to understand people straffing pilots that have just crashlanded... What's the point ?

I guess class isn't something that everyone has..



I am all for re spawn times. (For fighters. Bombers have it too difficult already). But we had this discussion before, and someone said that we'd lose too many people if we had them (I'm not sure these people would be a huge loss, but that's just a personal opinion. )

[SlowerBanterSir]

I'm not a master killing machine by any stretch, but I've followed a few struggling planes home and kept at them the whole way. I don't see what's wrong with it, frankly -- I'd expect the same to be done to me (and indeed it has been, many times). If someone's willing to shoot at me when I'm in good condition and a real threat, why wouldn't I expect them to go for the kill when I'm an easier target?

Same goes for strafing and getting guys when they take off: I don't see anything wrong with getting a guy when he's at his least dangerous, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone getting me in the same situation. If you take the "honor" logic to its extreme, you might as well hold back on attacking an oblivious enemy until he sees you and gets a chance to fight back.

But beyond the simple expectation that it be done, I see it all as perfectly historical. I've read a good number of books by RAF pilots, and several refer to missions that ended with so-and-so number of "good Germans" -- the only good Germans being dead ones. These guys were often ruthless, following burning planes into the sea, and it wasn't because they were cruel; they just recognized that an enemy who lived to fight another day might well be the one who kills you or your comrade.

A fitting quote from Clive "Killer" Caldwell, who earned his nickname from his tendency to shoot parachuting Germans after one did the same to his friend: "... there was no blood lust or anything about it like that. It was just a matter of not wanting them back to have another go at us."

[Black034]

Well if that's your view on it SlowerBanter, fine.
I can relate to a few of your points but for the most, wasting ammo and fuel on a guy that's already had it.. no thanks.
That's the difference between someone landing or someone that's already airborne and looking for a fight.

But I'll be happy to put a few 20's in your canopy if I ever catch ya strafing a wounded pilot

[ATAG_Colander]

"...snip...It was just a matter of not wanting them back to have another go at us."

This is the difference. In the game they WILL come back and you WILL come back even if you spend 10 minutes strafing and airfield feeling the wrath of the AA and other fighters.

This is a game. People is different. Different people plays differently.
If dead was dead, some behaviors would change but since many only have a few minutes a day to play after a long work day, the "dead is dead" can not be implemented.

[Otyg]

I dont chase planes who dives away. I know i won, and they do too.. but if i even have the slightest hint it might be Dave or Pantast i will follow them to Isles of Scilly if need be!

[JG4_sKylon]

A fitting quote from Clive "Killer" Caldwell, who earned his nickname from his tendency to shoot parachuting Germans after one did the same to his friend: "... there was no blood lust or anything about it like that. It was just a matter of not wanting them back to have another go at us."

There is a logic in this quote, but where to stop?
If any measure to prevent the enemy having another "go at us" is valid, then there will be no limit, no moral and no humanity at all.
Total annihilation is the final logic consequence.

[SlowerBanterSir]

This is the difference. In the game they WILL come back and you WILL come back even if you spend 10 minutes strafing and airfield feeling the wrath of the AA and other fighters.

Agreed, but that can cut both ways. Yes, it's a game, so finishing off a struggling plane won't really put the pilot out of action -- but on the same token, you're not really killing a helpless man so there's no need to feel it's unchivalrous or cruel.

Certainly nothing wrong with following the "chivalry" model, of course! I just don't spend a lot of time worrying about it in the heat of battle, and I wouldn't blame any Blue player who rightly sees me as an easy kill stat when I'm limping home.

But I'll be happy to put a few 20's in your canopy if I ever catch ya strafing a wounded pilot

Believe me, you'll never see me shoot a parachutist! I'm bad enough at hitting planes, let alone tiny men falling from the sky.

[♣_Spiritus_♣]

The Battlefield 2 mod; Project Reality pulled this off very nicely, the more you die within a certain timeframe.. the longer the respawn time will be!

2 minutes even!

This isn't good for bomber pilots or new guys who might crash and burn on multiple take off attempts.

In the end its a game and people will play how they want. I for one do it all depending upon how much time I have and what type of mood I'm in.

Airfield suppression is the term I use because it is a tactic and used often in real war. Most map makers try to make it hard to continue this tactic for more than a couple passes and I think we have done a good job to encourage this tactic how it is seen in real war and gun cam footage. Two to three passes before its bugging out time. Yes the AA in CloD is finicky and sometimes they planes can stay longer but if I get rolled once while warming up or taking off, I either jump in an AA gun and take them out or just spawn in at another airfield.

I do agree with you about your chivalry though! Again, depends upon my mood but if I have an exceptional dogfight with a German and they start limping home I will wiggle my wings and "escort" them to mid channel. With that said though, my mood might be different one night and I might run my belts dry into him too.

Just like real war, tactics and moods change day to day from those participating in it. I like this because it keeps things more fluid.

Either way we got a special thing going with ATAG, SoW, 401, ACG and all the other servers and lobbies.



A suggestion to help your mind and well being:
I try to get the markings and numbers on planes and remember them. Rollinstoned's thread has lots of peoples markings! Then you can get to know (especially if you fly around the same times every time) the planes and their tactics and pilots. Then you see, oh this guy was a good fight last time and broke off his attack after I was going down, I'll treat him the same or vice versa.

[FZG_Immel]

I'm not a master killing machine by any stretch, but I've followed a few struggling planes home and kept at them the whole way. I don't see what's wrong with it, frankly

Since you like to relate to what really happened during ww2, I'll tell you what's wrong with it..

No sane mined RAF pilot would have chased a crippled plane back to France, straffing him while landing for 2 reasons... (Same on the other side)

First, the AAA on airbases were much much more dangerous than what we have, and the chances of being it and never making it back home were quite important.

second, that plane would probably face an overwhelming number of german planes over France and on the way back, which would make his chances of survival almost nill..

In the atag server, I see people doing that, and chasing a plane all the way to the runway, even straffing, with 2 or 3 planes on their tail, knowing perfectly well that they will never make it back to his homebase and that he will most probably die... But they don't care. They don't even care about evading the planes behind them, and shooting at them.. They will stay on their targets, not giving a f#%# that they are being shot at.. Until they die or are brought down.


This would have NEVER happened for real, because everybody has some sort of survival instinct... Some more than others.

Yes. This is a game. But more than a game it's a SIMULATION. And simulation gets sooooo much better if everyone tries to simulated, at least just a little, that your life/survival has some kind of value.

Some pilots, on both sides, don't care about their life one bit, and will fight to the death each and every time. (Bombers have no other choice. I don't blame them).


I see some experienced fighter pilots that have less than 1/10th the landings they have sorties... And more than a 50% death rate...

These pilots, in my opinion, kinda make the game worst then it could be. Also. They would probably find it more rewarding if they cared about their virtual life, just a little.

But again, that's my opinion and I can only enforce it on myself. I'll keep enjoying shooting those kamikaze down every chance I get.

[ATAG_Dave]

I dont chase planes who dives away. I know i won, and they do too.. but if i even have the slightest hint it might be Dave or Pantast i will follow them to Isles of Scilly if i have need be!

Wouldnt have it any other way Otyg

[AKA_Knutsac]

Not just chivalrous to let a damaged a/c go (or to ignore a ditched a/c) it's self interest. I'll be damned if I'm going to put myself at a tactical disadvantage (either in SA, position, altitude, or ammo) just to finish off a damaged a/c. Nor will I let myself get sucked into those ridiculous tail-chasing, shoulder-shooting cluster effs where you see five a/c from one side chasing one enemy. IMHO, the participants are just asking to collide or get bounced.

~S~

AKA Knutsac

[Roblex]

I see some experienced fighter pilots that have less than 1/10th the landings they have sorties... And more than a 50% death rate...

These pilots, in my opinion, kinda make the game worst then it could be. Also. They would probably find it more rewarding if they cared about their virtual life, just a little.

Thankfully most of the special events only allow one life and this makes people care about staying alive. The Storm Of War server ends your virtual 'career' when you die and starts a fresh one with no kills to your name which encourages some people to stay alive but people can still fly suicidally if they want so you may still have to deal with idiots.

..I see people doing that, and chasing a plane all the way to the runway, even straffing, with 2 or 3 planes on their tail, knowing perfectly well that they will never make it back to his homebase and that he will most probably die... But they don't care. They don't even care about evading the planes behind them, and shooting at them.. They will stay on their targets, not giving a f#%# that they are being shot at.. Until they die or are brought down.

Like many people I would love to see a stats table where you don't get any credit for the kill unless you get home alive. This would make it pointless for people to commit suicide just to get a kill. ATAG does not want to ruin the fun for casual 'deathmatch' pilots and risk losing players. This is an understandable policy but it would be nice if we had an alternative server where more serious pilots could fly. Unfortunately we don't really have the numbers yet to populate more than one server effectively 24/7 and although TF has done some wonderful work to attract more players I can't help wondering whether Battle Of Stalingrad or DCS- WWII might undo that if they ever get their shit together.

[SlowerBanterSir]

No sane mined RAF pilot would have chased a crippled plane back to France,

That's definitely a fair point. And I'll agree with the reply that noted it's tactically unsound, as well ... long, co-alt stern chases always seem to end with the pursuer dead or out of ammo (at least they do for me!).

A stat system in which you have to survive the fight to get the kills would be awesome. I've always felt the relief of landing alive is better than the fleeting joy of a few extra hits on the enemy -- even a great dogfight leaves a bad taste in my mouth if it ends with my plane slamming into the sea.

That being said, caring for your own virtual life doesn't necessarily mean you'll spare the enemy's in the name of chivalry. But it's a good point, realism-wise.

[ATAG_Ezzie]

Although uncommon there are at least 2 reported case of RAF pilots chasing the Luftwaffe back to France. On page 69 of Chris Goss' book ' the Luftwaffe fighters' Battle of Britain ' contains a story about 234 Sqn Spitfires fighting a running battle back to Cherboug. One Spitfire ended up landing at I./JG 53's base at Cherbourg-east and the pilot captured.

Earlier that day (15 Aug) a Spitfire landed on a beach near Wissant and a total of 3 RAF pilots were captured on this day.

Tactically unsound and very rare but it did happen that RAF pilots chased Lufwaffe aircraft back to France.

Ezzie

[FZG_Immel]

Yup. Seeing the results that wasn't very smart nor useful at all.

That's why I specified sane minded pilots.

And in the first case, it's not like one pilot followed a crippled plane back there. There was a battle going on, and maybe they had no choice of egressing and the fights brought them above French coast unknowingly.

[Black034]

Like many people I would love to see a stats table where you don't get any credit for the kill unless you get home alive. This would make it pointless for people to commit suicide just to get a kill.

I think this is all you need.

It would make sense in a way, and just might push more casual players to play in a realistic way.
Without making it super-duper hardcore.

[ATAG_Ezzie]

A example of chivalry from Chris Goss luftwaffes bomber' Battle of Britain.

A I/KG 26 He-111 was attacked and badly damaged and the pilot turned back to glide towards England rather than ditch. Seeing this the Hurricane stopped attacking and escorted the bomber till it ditched.

I realise all I'm doing is confirming what most people already know but I'm kinda curious to see first hand reports of both sides of the discussion. In the Luftwaffe fighters book there was one story of a badly damaged 110 flying slowly on one engine well inside England with Spitfires queuing up to within 5 m of the tail pumping lead into the 110 till it went down ( the gunner was out of ammo).

[ATAG_Dave]

I think this is all you need.

It would make sense in a way, and just might push more casual players to play in a realistic way.
Without making it super-duper hardcore.

That assumes people fly for stats......many dont

[FZG_Immel]

A example of chivalry from Chris Goss luftwaffes bomber' Battle of Britain.

A I/KG 26 He-111 was attacked and badly damaged and the pilot turned back to glide towards England rather than ditch. Seeing this the Hurricane stopped attacking and escorted the bomber till it ditched.

I realise all I'm doing is confirming what most people already know but I'm kinda curious to see first hand reports of both sides of the discussion. In the Luftwaffe fighters book there was one story of a badly damaged 110 flying slowly on one engine well inside England with Spitfires queuing up to within 5 m of the tail pumping lead into the 110 till it went down ( the gunner was out of ammo).

Love the anecdotes. Keep posting them

[FZG_Immel]

That assumes people fly for stats......many dont

Maybe stats no, but kills ? For sure.

Remove the kill notice on the chat, as well as the kill points from net stats if you don't bring your plane or skin back and I will assure you that most of the nonsense will stop

[trademe900]

The status quo remains. An unpleasant situation that continues to blemish this wonderful server.

Spits will be spits. BF109s will turn to their deaths, and the parasitic Vulchers despised by all, with no regard for their own safety will remain ruining the experience for the many. An unnecessary and continuing trend that would all be fixed by one thing:

Stats upon landing.

...All these problems of deplorable airmanship and behavior, all the blatant disregard for one's own plane in the name of 'stats', the tumour that plagues this community and causes so much unnecessary outrage via the chatbar and forums, not to mention killing incentive for real teamwork and bomb raids.

Time penalties before respawn? 'Dead is dead'? As others have noted, these measures are too extreme and would do harm in taking away from the casual and friendly ethos that is the ATAG server. However, these problems we face now would be rid of once and for all with this one simple and entirely constructive concept... stats upon landing.

[ATAG_Dave]

Maybe stats no, but kills ? For sure.

Remove the kill notice on the chat, as well as the kill points from net stats if you don't bring your plane or skin back and I will assure you that most of the nonsense will stop

Im my experience people will be people - for better and worse If people wish to play in that style its their choice on the ATAG server. Better not to get wound up by it and 'keep calm and carry on' as the saying goes

[javelina]

The status quo remains. An unpleasant situation that continues to blemish this wonderful server.

Spits will be spits. BF109s will turn to their deaths, and the parasitic Vulchers despised by all, with no regard for their own safety will remain ruining the experience for the many. An unnecessary and continuing trend that would all be fixed by one thing:

Stats upon landing.

...All these problems of deplorable airmanship and behavior, and blatant disregard for one's own plane in the name of 'stats', the tumour that plagues this community and causes so much unnecessary outrage via the chatbar and forums. All of this would be rid of once and for all with this one simple concept... stats upon landing.

+1 M8. completely agree.

Land first, then you get the cred's.

[Black034]

Don't you already get the damage detail after you landed and escaped out of the game?

[Skoshi_Tiger]

There is a logic in this quote, but where to stop?
If any measure to prevent the enemy having another "go at us" is valid, then there will be no limit, no moral and no humanity at all.
Total annihilation is the final logic consequence.

The next sentence in the quote from Cadwell was something like "I never shot any who landed where they could be taken prisoner"

In context, at this point of the war the Germans had more experienced pilots, better Aircraft and better supply chain. "It's your life or theirs. This is war"

Gaming wise, I say go for it! Some of my most intense moments in sim have been at one side or the other of a protracted chase. The more the merrier! Push the planes to their limit and see who comes out on top!

[FZG_Immel]

Im my experience people will be people - for better and worse If people wish to play in that style its their choice on the ATAG server. Better not to get wound up by it and 'keep calm and carry on' as the saying goes

Everybody is calm it seems. Lots of people simply proposing solutions to improve the quality of gaming.

I financially contribute to the server as often as I can. Ideas are free

[FZG_Immel]

The next sentence in the quote from Cadwell was something like "I never shot any who landed where they could be taken prisoner"

In context, at this point of the war the Germans had more experienced pilots, better Aircraft and better supply chain. "It's your life or theirs. This is war"

Gaming wise, I say go for it! Some of my most intense moments in sim have been at one side or the other of a protracted chase. The more the merrier! Push the planes to their limit and see who comes out on top!

Repeatedly straffing people spawning at an airfield by circling over it with a totally ineffective AAA doing nothing against it is far from that ideal.

Same goes for straffing crashlanded bombers shot down 40km inland minutes after they took off thanks to that all knowing tab 7 - 1 and convenient net stats which let's you when someone jumps into a bomber

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Repeatedly straffing people spawning at an airfield by circling over it with a totally ineffective AAA doing nothing against it is far from that ideal.

Same goes for straffing crashlanded bombers shot down 40km inland minutes after they took off thanks to that all knowing tab 7 - 1 and convenient net stats which let's you when someone jumps into a bomber

IMHO if someone is able to repeatedly strafe your airfield it means your team is not defending it properly. If someone can chase you from England back to your own airfield then your not using team work. Maybe your team mates are too fixated on getting their kills rather than protecting and helping out their own side.

Back in the day if someone got a reputation for not helping their squad mates they'd be shunned and ostracised no matter how good they were.

Maybe people should use teamspeak and ask for help. More often than not it works for me!

[Tinkicker]

Any BoB pilot would tell you that stooging around on your own in the area of the channel would be suicide, yet that is exactly what we all usually do.
I have flown the perfect mission in my hurricane, at the required altitude where I had at least a chance of surviving. I have climbed, crossed the channel and circumnavigated Rouen, then returned to Blighty, all without seeing another single distant speck of an aircraft. I have landed back at base wondering what the point of applying all my full size piloting, historical air war knowledge and navigation experience if the 12 year olds are all skimming the trees and I never see them?

These days I spawn and exit to jump on a bofors to defend an airfield, if the air raid siren is wailing, any speck overhead gets blasted at, at least that situation is historically accurate. Much more fun than trying to fight me109 4s at low level in a hurricane, where in real life you would not be, not if you valued life at any rate.

German bombers rarely came in low, and the cap were usually well above. The defenders were after the bombers, so min alt was the bomber stream. If the server were real life, most fighter pilots on here would be court martialled for dereliction of duty by way of a abandoning the mission parameters for personal gain.