Team Fusion 5.0

[Osprey]

8.1 users complain.

I have been working on my buddy to come back. There needs to be a big fat warning on this game that if you have an old Win 7 disk its time for dual boot.

http://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/foru...php?f=5&t=3658

[ATAG_Lolsav]

http://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/foru...php?f=5&t=3658

I dont get it Osprey. You post a link to your forum that has a thread that will redirect to this forum again. Uh? Why not post to the specific thread on this forum since its a redirect. Oh, wait, i get it, nevermind.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

I know, as soon as money changes hands--even if not to TF--folks will understandably get nervous.

There in lies the problem.

[Osprey]

I dont get it Osprey. You post a link to your forum that has a thread that will redirect to this forum again. Uh? Why not post to the specific thread on this forum since its a redirect. Oh, wait, i get it, nevermind.

I was being lazy, I already had that link open on my browser. I see what you are implying but no, he's in a squadron already, so I think I get what you say you got but you got the wrong end of the stick there chum

[Continu0]

I wish I would be adept in 3Ds Max or Blender so that I could contribute.
I know this is a stupid question, but how is the learning curve with those programs?

Ask Spiritus Mortem. He started with Blender for Team Fusion and now is a Member...!

[Salmo]

I wish I would be adept in 3Ds Max or Blender so that I could contribute.
I know this is a stupid question, but how is the learning curve with those programs?

Blender is free, the learning curve is steep but people with virtually no previously 3D experence seem to be able to produce reasonable models. You could try contacting 69th_Spiritus_Mortem (US-S SM) for advice.

[edit] - Ha! Continu0 beat me to it

[♣_Spiritus_♣]

PM sent, feel free to ask questions when you get stuck although that link I sent should give you a plethora of info.

[spartan18a]

I have a question about future improvements in the CLOD.
Are the damage models going to be change? I mean, what is more realistic the ones in IL2 1946 or in the CLOD?
I don't want to create a hot debate but what was the real one? Is the IL2 real or Hollywood style? Is the CLOD real or lame?
Thanks

[Mysticpuma]

I have a question about future improvements in the CLOD.
Are the damage models going to be change? I mean, what is more realistic the ones in IL2 1946 or in the CLOD?
I don't want to create a hot debate but what was the real one? Is the IL2 real or Hollywood style? Is the CLOD real or lame?
Thanks

"I don't want to create a hot debate" but throw out a loaded question and use words like Hollywood and lame?

Whatever!

MP

[spartan18a]

Don't get offended. English is not my first language. I went to both extremes just to make my point and because I'm just confused with the difference in both models. I try to be honest but not offensive at all. Many people think that and it's a fact.
I've been watching gun camara footage, as surely you have too, and ... Well, which is more accurate to real life?
You're a genius and what Team Fusion is doing with CLOD is just undescriptable. But many people wonder about the damage models. What is your opinion about it?
We all seek the max reality in a sim. You guys are creating the best sim ever, no doubt about that. So I just raise the question to help you reach perfection.
I hope I have expressed myself better in second language. The message is always stronger in a L1 that in an L2. So that is why my words sound stronger for you than your non-native speaker. I swear no bad intention in my words!!! But don't wanna talk about linguistics now. lol

[ATAG_Colander]

I have a question about future improvements in the CLOD.
Are the damage models going to be change? I mean, what is more realistic the ones in IL2 1946 or in the CLOD?
I don't want to create a hot debate but what was the real one? Is the IL2 real or Hollywood style? Is the CLOD real or lame?
Thanks

Hola Spartan,
CLOD damage model is a lot better than old IL2.
One thing to take into consideration are the bullets available on the current period of the war. Latter on the war, with heavier guns, you will see more Hollywood style damages.

[spartan18a]

Hola Spartan,
CLOD damage model is a lot better than old IL2.
One thing to take into consideration are the bullets available on the current period of the war. Latter on the war, with heavier guns, you will see more Hollywood style damages.

Ok, that sounds reasonable. I thought 20mm cannons would be more devastating but I didn't take into account the guns & bullets and their evolution during the war. Good point.

[ATAG_Snapper]

You raise a good topic, Spartan. There are some excellent threads/posts in this forum that describe the complexities of the Clod damage modelling in great detail, which I can't find at the moment.

I will hunt them down, merge them into one thread, and "sticky" them to make it easier to find. I was amazed at how much work went into the aircraft systems modelled, the individual bullet's penetrative and destructive powers modelled based on type and kinetic energy on impact, coupled to the various elements of aircraft construction and flammability (wood, metal, fabric, etc). Utterly mind boggling that not only such parameters can be programmed into a £10 game, but that home PC's can handle it!

[spartan18a]

You raise a good topic, Spartan. There are some excellent threads/posts in this forum that describe the complexities of the Clod damage modelling in great detail, which I can't find at the moment.

I will hunt them down, merge them into one thread, and "sticky" them to make it easier to find. I was amazed at how much work went into the aircraft systems modelled, the individual bullet's penetrative and destructive powers modelled based on type and kinetic energy on impact, coupled to the various elements of aircraft construction and flammability (wood, metal, fabric, etc). Utterly mind boggling that not only such parameters can be programmed into a £10 game, but that home PC's can handle it!

Sounds really interesting. I would love to read about it if you find it.
My squad recently moved from the old IL2 to CLOD and we have many pilots arguing about the damage models. It would be great if I had some data to argue that back.
I must confess that I opinion is divided on this topic and that the transition is very VERY hard.
Right now we are in a HRcodwar and we are all learning to to compete with the CLOD sim.
Another issue we have is the planes spinning or rotating in take off and landings. What are we doing wrong? For example, I was landing the other day and the plane had touched down and was rolling bleeding speed, suddenly with a slight touch in the wheel brakes, the plane skidded and the right wing touched the ground. Fortunately, no systems were damage. It's sad to have these issues in the middle of a competition
Thanks to all from other virtual flying fans overseas

[ATAG_Lolsav]

Another issue we have is the planes spinning or rotating in take off and landings. Whatbare we doing wrong?

Adjustments takes time, your not doing anything wrong. In time it will be almost intuitive, to counter the torque on take off. Evry pilot has its own technique, but there is one common to all: Take off into wind direction to avoid spinning ; Use the rudder wisely to counter torque, not to increase more instability of the plane (its a very thin line); practice... you might be il2 veterans but in CLOD they are rookies. Planes are diffrent (althought same principles of flying applies) and FM is diffrent. And its a new game engine, more complex and for that same reason, more fun to learn. Not wanting to be disrespectfull but when veterans come to CLOD they have to eat "humble pie" before they can put their experience into the game. And that process is part of the fun! S!

[spartan18a]

Adjustments takes time, your not doing anything wrong. In time it will be almost intuitive, to counter the torque on take off. Evry pilot has its own technique, but there is one common to all: Take off into wind direction to avoid spinning ; Use the rudder wisely to counter torque, not to increase more instability of the plane (its a very thin line); practice... you might be il2 veterans but in CLOD they are rookies. Planes are diffrent (althought same principles of flying applies) and FM is diffrent. And its a new game engine, more complex and for that same reason, more fun to learn. Not wanting to be disrespectfull but when veterans come to CLOD they have to eat "humble pie" before they can put their experience into the game. And that process is part of the fun! S!

Thanks Lolsav, one thing. Do we have to counter the torque effects also in the landings?
Thanks

[spartan18a]

Another thing I was wondering about. When you spawn in the cockpit you don't know where you are in relation to the airfield. This not realistic, so my idea is: what about having a way to show where you are? Maybe an airport mini map which shows where you have spawned. I don't know if this is too crazy but I always so disoriented at spawning. In real life you would have driven or walked to your crate and have a situational awareness.
What do you guys think?

[ATAG_Lolsav]

Thanks Lolsav, one thing. Do we have to counter the torque effects also in the landings?

If throtle is back, no, but you still have to take into account the wind. Its tricky, thats for sure.

Another thing I was wondering about. When you spawn in the cockpit you don't know where you are in relation to the airfield. This not realistic, so my idea is: what about having a way to show where you are? Maybe an airport mini map which shows where you have spawned. I don't know if this is too crazy but I always so disoriented at spawning. In real life you would have driven or walked to your crate and have a situational awareness.
What do you guys think?

You have the cockpit instruments.. pointing to where your nose is. No mini-map... full real server. Look for the runway (yellow boards always point to the best take off position on the runway). Also, due to a bug we hope to be squashed in the future, when you spawn the plane will turn itself into the wind. Thats why it spins a bit.

[♣_Spiritus_♣]

You have to counter torque and wind as long as you are spawned in your aircraft, wind all the time if its present and torque all the time if your engine is on and any throttle is applied.

CloD's damage model is the most detailed there is. You may not get an aircraft to blow up into a thousand pieces like we see in 46 (Did it happen in RL? Yes but way overdone IMO as far as how often). Watch some Karaya videos in regards to the 20mm, I think they are potent as does many a red pilot, especially Blenny pilots.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ad.php?t=16621

See post 3.

There are other threads out there discussing possibilities of exploding fuel, ordnance and O2 bottles which will mimic what I think you are saying.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ad.php?t=16670

See post 3 as well.

As far as SA on airfields... you will actually learn the airfields rather quickly and it will be like driving in real life, you'll know where to go. There are great maps from Tom here plus a lot of goodies:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ad.php?t=12895

You can use those and zoom in and see the layout of the airfields runways and with that you should be able to make a judgement call.

I love 46 but CloD is miles above it in every category except content.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Nothing in a simulation is going to be able to completely replicate the variables of real life damage.

However, you can model a lot of elements in CLIFFS OF DOVER... all the major effects of kinetic and explosive damage.

Right now it is at a level which is higher than most of the simulations out there. (not sure about DCS as I have not seen the engine files)

We could take the level of complexity much further, basically CLIFFS OF DOVER's damage modeling can be as complex as we want to make it.

However that can become a bit obsessive and counterproductive, for example, there is a question of how much time and effort would be required to create an aircraft where every single major electrical component, and all the wiring for that component has a damage system. Right now for example the various gauges in the cockpit can be damaged by being directly impacted, but the game does not model the wiring for these or damage which might be caused by the severing of a connection.

There are things which I would like to see introduced for TF 5.0, which at the moment are not modeled... those being Oxygen bottles exploding when penetrated, and ammunition exploding or igniting when penetrated. We also want to see the game be a little more systematic and consistent in how existing damage systems are modeled... there are various bugs and idiosyncrasies with some planes. We will move forward as time and resources allow.

In any case, even as it stands now, DM in CoD is much better than IL-2 1946.

By the way, you can get an aircraft to blow up and disintegrate in CoD, enough rounds of inciendary/explosive 20mm into a fuel tank will cause a large explosion.

[Quinte]

Since we're talking about the damage model, I've had two questions on my mind for a while, for you engine gurus.

1- Can battle damage affect the resistance of the plane to non-battle damage? i.e, if my wing is heavily damaged, is it more likely to rip in a low G turn, or even at high speed?

2- Is the DM actually, to your knowledge, handled differently in SP and online? In my offline warm-up rounds, I tend to flame Spitfires quite regularly. It doesn't seem to happen that regularly online, but I can't tell if it's just placebo or not.

[Salmo]

Since we're talking about the damage model, I've had two questions on my mind for a while, for you engine gurus. 1- Can battle damage affect the resistance of the plane to non-battle damage? i.e, if my wing is heavily damaged, is it more likely to rip in a low G turn, or even at high speed?

Yes.

2- Is the DM actually, to your knowledge, handled differently in SP and online? In my offline warm-up rounds, I tend to flame Spitfires quite regularly. It doesn't seem to happen that regularly online, but I can't tell if it's just placebo or not.

In theory there should be no difference between SP & MP. Experience has shown, however, that there are some aspects of the game which play completely differently offline & online. So I wouln't be surprised if what you describe is really happening & may be a legacy bug.

[spartan18a]

OK. I also have another question. This time is about the wind. When you spawn and do NOT start the engine the plane moves in a rotation mode. Is that so in real life? Could the wind move the planes in such a way?
Thanks. I'm really learning in this thread

[=AFJ=Oracle]

Yes. from personal experience with light aircraft, such as the J-3 Cub, PA-18 Super Cub and B75N Stearman, if they are equipped with free-castoring tailwheels will happily weathervane into the wind and worse.

Free-castoring tail wheels that could be locked into place was common in that time and it was proper procedure to put the chocks in and lock the tail wheel when parked.

The ones I fly have clutched tail wheel assemblies that will "break away" and become free-castoring if they are torqued beyond a certain point. When that happens, relatively gentle gusts will weathervane you unless you have enough speed or propwash for the rudder to be effective.

On heavier fighters I understand that this was still a factor because the rudder and side surface area were proportionally larger and they caught the wind just as well.

IMHO, I think the FM leans on the side of forgiving in the area of ground handling. It would probably discourage too many new players if it were made tougher.

[Davis0079]

Speaking of propwash and windveining, these are the things you need to think of when taking off and landing. And why you spin while on the ground.

When I land my 109, as soon as I'm wheels down I lightly get on the brakes, then progressively get on them harder (while pulling back on the stick). This can send you into a spin. Matter of fact, I'll say it like this. It will send you into a spin. The best way to counteract this is to increase your throttle just a bit after touchdown. Once the propwash is back on the rudder, you will regain rudder authority. You can still brake all the way to a stop, but you can also taxi without worrying about spinning.

Same when I start up. As I get taxing fast, I dont cut throttle, I use the brakes to maintain my speed instead. The wind from the prop gives you the rudder authority needed for safe taxi (no spin). When you cut throttle you lose the ability to steer with the rudder while on the ground.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

IMHO, I think the FM leans on the side of forgiving in the area of ground handling. It would probably discourage too many new players if it were made tougher.

Yes, and the mission builders could also increase the amount of wind, which would make the buffeting and turbulence inflight much more noticeable, not to mention the on ground handling less than desirable.

[varrattu]

Taildragger rule number 1: Always keep the stick back while taxiing.
The stick should never be held forward of the neutral position when taxiing, it should be all the way back. The only possible exception to this rule is if there is a strong tail wind.

~V~

PS: trimming rudder fully back while taxiing helps a lot.

[5./JG26_Peete]

In clod the wind is a bit hard on the ground! We had that discussion. They made it hard else the clouds did not move in the sky. Very hard wind makes planes spin ... so there you go. In real war most deadly crashes happend with the 109 on the ground. A lot of rooki pilots crasht in to a hanger or something. It was a mean machine in those days... take a hurricane if you want easy handling.. she is a dream.. also on the ground..

[Gromit]

Sounds really interesting. I would love to read about it if you find it.
My squad recently moved from the old IL2 to CLOD and we have many pilots arguing about the damage models. It would be great if I had some data to argue that back.
I must confess that I opinion is divided on this topic and that the transition is very VERY hard.
Right now we are in a HRcodwar and we are all learning to to compete with the CLOD sim.
Another issue we have is the planes spinning or rotating in take off and landings. What are we doing wrong? For example, I was landing the other day and the plane had touched down and was rolling bleeding speed, suddenly with a slight touch in the wheel brakes, the plane skidded and the right wing touched the ground. Fortunately, no systems were damage. It's sad to have these issues in the middle of a competition
Thanks to all from other virtual flying fans overseas

The damage model on old IL2 was totally over the top, with aircraft disintegrating with short bursts, wings and tails disappearing everywhere, it was unrealistic to the extreme, spend a couple of hours reviewing online gun camera film and you see very few aircraft lose wings or disintegrate, practically none explode, did it happen , yes , but very rarely, gamers tend to grossly overestimate the damage a 20mm cannon round can do!

Consider the fact aircraft limped home after sustaining 37mm or 40mm hits, they didn't all get blown to pieces, it really really matters where the damage is sustained, a single .303/7.9mm can bring down any liquid cooled fighter if it hits the wrong place!

[spartan18a]

Thanks to all for the excellent replies. It helps a lot to understand the complexity and beauty of this sim.