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Thread: Possible mods to Tab4-1

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    Possible mods to Tab4-1

    There has been a lot of talk about the realism and fairness of Tab7-1. Below, I have accumulated information from several sources in Wikipedia, mostly, updating and correcting some of the statements about the range and effectiveness of the Chain Home radar system.

    In addition, I have included a possible modification to Tab4-1, which would enable the removal of Tab7-1.

    Performance and Limitations

    CH was not able to detect aircraft at lower altitudes and thus was used in conjunction with the high-VHF band (200 MHz frequency) Chain Home Low system, or AMES Type 2, which could detect aircraft flying at minimum altitude level of 500 ft (150 m). This was further refined by the addition of Chain Home Extra Low, or AMES Type 14, which gave cover down to 50 ft (15 m) but at short ranges of only approximately 30 miles (50 km).

    Chain Home had many limitations. With fixed antennas facing the sea, the Observer Corps had to be employed to report aircraft movements once the coast was reached. With detection poor below 5,000 ft (1,500 m), Chain Home Low stations were placed between Chain Home stations to detect aircraft down to 2,000 ft (610 m) but only out to 35 mi (56 km) from the coast, about one-third the range of Chain Home.[

    Primitive as Chain Home was, it was brilliantly used. They took advantage of nulls in their radiation pattern to determine the altitude of an incoming formation. If the return dropped off 40 miles out, for instance, it might mean the aircraft were at 15,000 feet.

    Chain Home was especially important with getting the best use out of fighters such as the Spitfire and Hurricane. Rather than have continuous, fuel-consuming patrols, they could be held back and launched when there was just enough time for them to meet the incoming foundations. That allowed them the maximum time for dog-fighting.

    Two displays (see Pics) of the Chain Home coverage during the Battle of Britain. Hopefully, these put to rest any doubts about how soon CH could detect, and track, German raids.

    Here we see WAAF radar operator Denise Miley (see Pic) plotting aircraft on the CRT (cathode ray tube) of an RF7 Receiver in the Receiver Room at RAF Bawdsey CH station.
    The green cathode ray tube displays the signal received. At the left hand edge of the screen is the pulse sent out by the transmitter: the signal returned by an aircraft can be seen towards the centre of the screen. The scale across the tube is calibrated up to 322km (200 miles). A cursor is moved by the operator to the position of the trace, and this information is automatically passed to the calculating machine. Her right hand has selected the direction or height finding and her left hand is ready to register the goniometer (angle measurer) setting to the calculator.
    To measure the bearing from the radar station to the aircraft the operator turns the goniometer until the 'blip' disappears. The scale is calibrated in degrees and this information also passes to the calculator. By means of a switch the goniometer can be connected to the height aerials and the process is repeated to enable the calculator to compute the aircraft's position and height.
    Operating frequency: between 20 and 60MHz
    Wavelength: Between 5 and 15 metres
    Maximum range: 200 miles

    Fighter Command
    The blocks (see Pic) being moved around the table represent the most current positions of German raids and British fighters. These blocks showed aircraft type, altitude, speed, and location relative to locations on the map.

    My suggestion for an improvement to Tab4-1 is to display small blocks in the CloD map, giving direction, height, and probable number and aircraft type. This would replace the text now used for Tab4-1, and would be shown on the CloD map in their current locations each time Tab4-1 was activated.

    This modification to Tab4-1 would, in effect, put on the map the information the Fighter Command control room personal saw and transmitted to the fighters.

    This would not be any different than what was available to the British in real life, during the Battle of Britain.

    1000px-Battle_of_Britain_map.svg.pngChain_home_coverage.jpgWAAF_radar_operator_Denise_Miley_plotting_aircraft_on_a_cathode_ray_tube_in_the_Receiver_Room_at.jpg0.jpg
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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    Nice info great work Badfinger

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    Modification of this kind to the static map image will not be a possibility.

    Regardless, it is only how information is disseminated to planes and pilots which is relevant to this virtual arena, and currently this is done instantaneously, at any second to anybody through either chat bar or TS. The chat bar and TS are fundamental parts of the MP experience and therefore comparisons of this kind between RL and this MP experience are for the most part invalid.

    Great fact summary of the 1940 chain-home radar sytem.
    Last edited by trademe900; Jun-28-2015 at 03:30.

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    Badfinger,

    Thanks for taking the time to gather the information regarding CH as there is a lot of information out there.
    So just to clarify, you now support the removal of Tab7-1, but are you now asking for a Tab4-1 to be refined even further to resemble a Link 16 Tactical data information type system on a map display?
    What if anything would Blue players be given, or are you suggesting this new system is given to both sides?

    Regards

    H
    Last edited by Hazza; Jun-28-2015 at 03:32.

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    It's entirely possble to do the following:

    1. Have chain-high radar scan semi-realistically. ie outward scanning, not inland scanning.
    2. Have chain-low radar scan between the CH stations & at a lower minimum altitude than the CH stations.
    3. Have ground observers inland spotting formations & reporting their speed/heading to a radar filering system.
    4 Have detected aircraft formations for both radars & ground observers appear as icons on the map screen, either in the position where the group is detected or in some calculated postion based upon their speed & heading.
    5. Tie the system to the custom TAB-4-1 menu
    Last edited by Salmo; Jun-28-2015 at 06:12.

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Salmo View Post
    It's entirely possble to do the following:

    1. Have chain-high radar scan semi-realistically. ie outward scanning, not inland scanning.
    2. Have chain-low radar scan between the CH stations & at a lower minimum altitude than the CH stations.
    3. Have ground observers inland spotting formations & reporting their speed/heading to a radar filering system.
    4 Have detected aircraft formations for both radars & ground observers appear as icons on the map screen, either in the position where the group is detected or in some calculated postion based upon their speed & heading.
    5. Tie the system to the custom TAB-4-1 menu
    That would be a wonderful semi-realistic system. But I suspect a high percentage of bombers would still be detected and intercepted, which is, as I understand, the main complaint with Tab-7-1. It also begs the question of what the Blue side would have, as we all know IRL they had nothing comparable.

    ~S~

    AKA Knutsac

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    A map with icons will be like BoS(& WT) "GPS/Radar" - that is enforced in EXPERT servers in the last and MP people beg for remove.



    This make people instead navigate per instruments became follow icons... very "gamey".

    The actual message system is more close that was used in 1940's - radio calls for pilots.
    The problem is not the message "per si", is his 100% precision/infallibility... the radar seeing from 0 to 99.999+fts, in front and back of antennas, the "Observer Corps" seeing trough clouds, at night...

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazza View Post
    Badfinger,

    Thanks for taking the time to gather the information regarding CH as there is a lot of information out there.
    So just to clarify, you now support the removal of Tab7-1, but are you now asking for a Tab4-1 to be refined even further to resemble a Link 16 Tactical data information type system on a map display?
    What if anything would Blue players be given, or are you suggesting this new system is given to both sides?

    Regards

    H
    There are two possibilities, it seems to me:
    Blues get the same type of system
    Blues don't because they didn't have such a system in RL

    I'm going to wimp out and let someone make that decision.

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    "...the "Observer Corps" seeing trough clouds, at night"

    This isn't really an issue in ATAG, all missions are daytime with only minimal cloud cover (if any). IMHO, cloud cover would make for the most interesting tactical change and provide bombers some protection. Based on the historical accounts I've read (and old IL-2 scenerios), night missions would be very boring...lots of groping around hoping to run into something.

    I'm still grappling with how we can make the game "fun" for the bombers guys while maintianing some sort of historical accuracy...clear daylight missions were very dangerous for bombers IRL, what with Y-station intel, radar, observer corps (including searchlight and AAA positions), and the Dowding system for coordinating all.

    ~S~

    AKA Knutsac

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Salmo View Post
    It's entirely possble to do the following:

    1. Have chain-high radar scan semi-realistically. ie outward scanning, not inland scanning.
    2. Have chain-low radar scan between the CH stations & at a lower minimum altitude than the CH stations.
    3. Have ground observers inland spotting formations & reporting their speed/heading to a radar filering system.
    4 Have detected aircraft formations for both radars & ground observers appear as icons on the map screen, either in the position where the group is detected or in some calculated postion based upon their speed & heading.
    5. Tie the system to the custom TAB-4-1 menu

    How do you display icons on servers with icons turned off Salmo?

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by SoW Reddog View Post
    How do you display icons on servers with icons turned off Salmo?
    Not completely sure on this one, Reddog, but I think the icons Salmo is refering to are the static waypoint marker icons that can be added to the map by players using the map tools. I believe you can script these. They'd be labeled "10+ HDG 320 Angels 8" or some such. It might get a bit messy with 100 players on the map though....

    I prefer a system that emulates the RT contact that the S/L would receive from the ground controller though. The map plotted icon kind of thing is great as an offline web interface or 'commander tool', but isn't what I'd want from a pilot's view experience.

    It might be simpler just to revamp the existing 4-1 system to only report the plotted contact that is closest to the player and also the largest plotted contact. That sort of system would work with 100 players or with 2 and help focus the fight to the biggest raid or to the nearest enemy which is needed in order to set up a proper defensive net around a mission objective.
    Last edited by No.401_Wolverine; Jun-28-2015 at 15:49.

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    I'm no expert in the subject but any tracking done by RAF central command would have taken minutes or tens of minutes to identify a target before diverting precious resources to intercept.
    Tab 7 1 gave instantaneous feedback in a small area with a limited number of objects in the air allowing fighters to communicate and intercept quickly.

    Patrols around the targets and mid channel coordinated by all squads could fill the gap. But it requires a change in mindset from kill count to winning the map.



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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    Quote Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
    I'm no expert in the subject but any tracking done by RAF central command would have taken minutes or tens of minutes to identify a target before diverting precious resources to intercept.
    Tab 7 1 gave instantaneous feedback in a small area with a limited number of objects in the air allowing fighters to communicate and intercept quickly.

    Patrols around the targets and mid channel coordinated by all squads could fill the gap. But it requires a change in mindset from kill count to winning the map.



    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
    In the first part of the first sentence, you admit to not being an expert. Then, in the second part, you give an expert opinion with nothing to back it up.

    Please provide substantiation.

    I'm no expert, either. But getting info that was "tens of minutes" old would have been useless, with closing speeds of 5-600 mph.

    I do agree, however, that getting kills seems to be more important than winning the map. But, kills are fun, and this is just a game.

    This is the paradox of trying to simulate real life while also trying to enjoy the flying part. After what we have gone through over Tab7-1, I doubt there is a happy medium possible.

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    Re: Possible mods to Tab4-1

    My comment is related to the impact of modern computing power and the unintended consequences introduced by being able to do more in less time.
    In the context of the game; tab 7 1 is RAF central command.
    Assumptions have to be made to make modelling manageable and not every can be historically accurate.

    To be clear; I said " mins or tens of minutes" Radar was part of the early warning system to intercept incoming threats and part of that system included french resistant spotters. So it is feasible that it could take 10+ minute to identify a threat taking off from one of the axis airfields.
    Besides if something is approaching at 500+ mph is likely attacking and not an early warning issue. It is a real time issue .


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