Now that some time has passed for everyone to try it, please let us know what you think of the current TAB-7-1 version on ATAG server #1.
I'm open to ideas on improvements but keep in mind that any idea can be argued to death
Is perfect as it stands now
I would like something different but I can live with it
I'm neutral or never use it
I don't like it because of X
I hate everything of it. Go back to the original version
Now that some time has passed for everyone to try it, please let us know what you think of the current TAB-7-1 version on ATAG server #1.
I'm open to ideas on improvements but keep in mind that any idea can be argued to death
The below is intended as constructive criticism
One negative aspect from my point of view is that when tab 71 is available to you, you can effectively know you are safe by hitting it - ie that there are no planes near you (unless u had one sneak up and get within 1 mile of course) or that the nearest plane is 15 miles or whatever from you. I think this is an unintended consequence of the otherwise positive changes IMO. Its not a good thing to hit some keys button and know you are safe.
It might be better to extend the distance within which tab 71 will not give you a result from 1 mile (or is it 1km i cant remember) to 5 miles/km or so
Colander,
I voted "I don't like it because of X". But, if some adjustments can be made, I would be fine with that.
I few of things I have found are:
It is very frustrating to be tracking a fighter, for instance, and suddenly info on a bomber pops up, and I lose the fighter. Then a fighter call out shows up. But is it the same one I was tracking before?
I also find myself being run around in circles. One moment, the target is at 150 and 4 miles. Then, 30 seconds later, it is at 300 and 9 miles, or something like that. Then, in another 30 seconds, it is at 30 and 3 miles. How can the position change so drastically in so short a time?
Since Tab7-1 has been modified, I have found/seen exactly 2 bombers. I think the pendulum has been swung too far, and we are way on the other side of being neutral.
All in all, I think we are getting to where we want to be, but aren't there, yet. Some modifications seem to have resulted in unanticipated problems. Which makes you asking for input such a positive and proactive effort.
Thanks,
badfinger
Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming MB,
Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 31ghz CPU, EVGA 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram,
Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte Curved Monitor 165hz, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, Reverb G2
League City, TX
+10.
I agree with Dave 100% re this and also think 5 km is a good compromise. This will introduce some uncertainty etc.
As mentioned in an earlier thread if there was some way to encourage high alt flying it would be good. Having a high alt threshold above which tab 7 1 doesn't work or is even more degraded might be one way, but appreciate its not historical.
I'm happy with the updated version and these are just some suggestions for tweaking it perhaps.
Ezzie
Badfinger - I think what is happening is that your closest tgt is dropping below 500 (or has been destroyed) and the radar then goes to the next closest tgt which then drops below 500m and the radar finds the next tgt etc. if a closer tgt then climbs above 500 you will get the big changes as you've described.
Ezzie
Exactly as Phil said, the readout does not factor slant range. That guy probably just flew under or over you.
Which, as I've said, is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of Tab 7-1. Players with less experience are using it as a crutch and not searching the sky above and below as they should be learning to do all the time.
Last edited by 9./JG52 Savage; Jul-16-2015 at 08:44.
You are correct on the distance. 3Km above you is still 3Km. It is reporting 3d distance and not 2d (map) distance.
You are also correct about the 500m. In anyway, I see TAB-7-1 as a way to find where the action is, not to place you on a target 6.
About bombers, you are correct, they are hard to find now but this is mainly because many of them tend to fly under the radar.
I'm not sure how to make everyone happy. Perhaps a random spotting but that would cause even more confusion.
Regarding the min 5Km. This change will effectively make those with issues spotting angry.
One thing that could be an idea is this (tell me what you think)
1.- If the target is above you closer to 5km, do not report.
2.- if the target is bellow you closer to 1km, do not report.
3.- All other cases, report as now.
The above might be a good compromise between the "where is the action" and "I want to bounce this guy" and would probably also make everyone fly higher.
I think whatever "filter" we put in place would behave like that.
Anyway, I just threw this on the table to see if the idea is worth thinking about in more depth or better not waste time on it.
If is something worth perusing, I might be able to find a way around that issue. For example, if the plane is flying towards you, do "A" else do "B"
Yeah i just think you might end up with co alt contacts being there in tab 71 one moment gone the next, back again and so on. But I might be wrong
Im always a fan of keeping stuff simple hence the suggestion to just increase the range a bit. If people are literally unable to spot things at 5km (3 miles) Im surprised - or rather id be suprised if the reason they cant spot is hardware related - but again i might be wrong - the figures i suggested were just to illustrate the idea rather than stating it was the 'right' number to use - maybe 3km or 4km??.
Spotting is something you get better at (regardless of your set up) with practice and thats part of learning the game i think (& of course most lessons in clod are learned the hard way lol).
Anyway for considering some suggestions
I knew the target could be above or below me. So, I look all around. My problem is that the bearing and distance change more than they should in a short period of time. How can a target be 4 miles away over here, and then 9 miles away over there 30 seconds later? Maybe we need to know more about how Tab7-1 works.
About using Tab7-1 to find the action, that's what we all do. I think. Whether that's looking for one or many targets.
This dialog is good. We should be able to find a happy medium.
badfinger
Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming MB,
Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 31ghz CPU, EVGA 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram,
Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte Curved Monitor 165hz, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, Reverb G2
League City, TX
Issue: Hard to find players in scarcely populated server w/o tab-7-1 and too much info otherwise.
Possible Mitigation
Add logic to identify high vs low population and dynamically change tab-7-1 behavior; if possible.
Example
If population < 20
30km range
Updates every 30 secs
Else
1km range
Updates every minute
End if
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Setup:
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Headset: Shiny Tracking: TrackiR5 with ProClip Joystick: Saitek x52 Pro Pedals: Saitek Combat Rudder
Because is not the same target you are getting reported....
Imagine this:
"Plane A" is reported at 2 miles from you while at the same time, there's "plane B" at 4 miles.
Then "Plane A" drops bellow radar (currently 500 meters). So now, the report will show "plane B" instead.
Now "Plane C", that was bellow radar but at 3 miles, climbs and now you get "Plane C".
The above example would look like this:
TAB-7-1: Enemy plane bearing 0 at 2 miles
TAB-7-1: Enemy plane bearing 80 at 4 miles
TAB-7-1: Enemy plane bearing 250 at 3 miles
The other planes are still there, just bellow radar reporting altitude.
I voted "I don't like it because of X but can live with it"
I would like to see it gone completely, it is not a very good tool and as it was, could be dangerous for the new pilots to rely on who do not understand it. That being said the changes are a HUGE improvement and glad that you took the time to investigate how to modify it.
I would rather see a C# script for missions with better simulation of GCI introduced, with Radar towers that give a realistic picture that can be disabled reporting incoming contacts and an observer corps that can't be disabled reporting contacts over friendly territory, much like what we have now in some maps in the rotation. Make this script mandatory for all maps in use. IF a map had neither a Tab 4 GCI script or the Tab 7-1 it would be a very discouraging map for most players unless there are 100 players in the server.
TS is still the best way to find en a/c on the server when it is moderately busy.
Ultimately if Tab 7-1 can be modified to replace the current functionality in the next TF patch with something that works like one of the better thought out C# GCI scripts that would be the perfect solution.
My $0.02
Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming MB,
Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 31ghz CPU, EVGA 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram,
Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte Curved Monitor 165hz, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, Reverb G2
League City, TX
Setup:
CPU: i7 950 3.07 GHz RAM: Corsair Dominator 32 GB GPU: EVGA gtx 970
Headset: Shiny Tracking: TrackiR5 with ProClip Joystick: Saitek x52 Pro Pedals: Saitek Combat Rudder
I say do away with it all together and make Chain Home avail on all maps, plus whatever Blue equivalent. It gives you an approximation, but not a bearing. Thats my 2 cents.
No, no, no, I beg you. More filter rules is a bad direction.
It imbues the spotting experience with its own "AI", so to speak. One can sense this. The more rules, the more artificial and contrived it will become and the more artificial and contrived it will quickly feel.
I already have in my head:
- how many people are online?
- any kills yet?
- what's my altitude?
Give something an algorithm and (surprise)...it now has a behavior.
Trying to please everyone is impossible, but the answer lies in simplicity....somewhere.
(it always does.)
EDIT: I voted to leave it just as it is for now. Thanks again, Colander!
Last edited by 69th_Turn; Jul-17-2015 at 05:17.
Long Live Team Fusion.
Long Live ATAG.
How can I help?
Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming MB,
Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 31ghz CPU, EVGA 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram,
Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte Curved Monitor 165hz, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, Reverb G2
League City, TX
...4km...5km...1km...not above(or maybe yes?)...certainly below(or maybe not!)...500mt...WHERE?I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING!!!!!
Well guys,to tell you the truth if it's meant to be like that and having to remember all these parameters to correctly interpret the info provided using Tab-7-1...I think I would rather prefer not using it at all as the whole thing would be a total confusion.Setting aside the fact is unreliable in some cases (not few),like it was in the past.In other words it's not 100% accurate.Yesterday evening me and my buddy tried to spot a Tab-7-1 fighter (single) report near Crepon who flew in circles obviously trying to spot us, also obviously following his Tab-7-1 reports.In a matter of seconds the reports was continuously changing both bearing and distance data.After several 360's and without spotting anything no matter how hard we both tried scanning the whole area around us, I spotted a contact 10 o'clock high at about 2-3 km away which seemed to be a bomber (Blenheim) as far as I could tell from the way he flew and its size as well.Strange thing was that the Tab-7-1 report came well after we spotted the contact and finally the only useful info was the distance from target.What I'm trying to underline here is that the whole time we were chasing the fighter following Tab-7-1 reports, the bomber was flying in the very same area in close vicinity,nevertheless no report was given until we already have seen the target with our own eyes!Its altitude was several thousand meters as we flew at 1500-2500 trying to spot the fighter and the Blenheim was approximately 1500-2000Mt above us.Now, how much dependable something like this could be considered?Make things even more complicated adding other "filters" and we'll end up with something totally confusing,unreliable and at the end almost totally useless.
So my opinion,leave it as it is for some time and wait for a better idea or compromisation come up in the future.We'll be here to discuss it.
Nick
CPU:Intel i7 4770K@4.6GHz,CPU Cooling:Thermalright SilverArrow IB-E Extreme,GPU:Gigabyte GTX980 XTREME 4GD@1342MhZ,RAM: 2X4GB G.Skill F3-2400C10D, 2X120Gb Hyper-X 3K Kingston SSD in Raid mode,1 Samsung SSD 850PRO 256GB & 1 Samsung SSD 850PRO 512GB,Motherboard:Gigabyte Z87X-OC,Case:Aerocool X-Predator Evil Black edition.Joystick:Microsoft SideWinder ForceFeedback2.
Just to bring everyone up to date on the poll, 44% think Tab7-1 is now perfect, while 56% want something changed, don't like it at all, or are neutral.
Today, I lost Tab7-1 after achieving .34 kills. Under the current mod, at that point, I was deemed an expert who didn't need Tab7-1, anymore. So, I spent the next two hours looking around and listening to TS without firing a shot.
badfinger
Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming MB,
Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 31ghz CPU, EVGA 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram,
Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte Curved Monitor 165hz, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, Reverb G2
League City, TX
Like my vote , I don't care!
When saying this I mean don't have a clue how to use it unless some one smart like Rebel can give me a map reference. In my 4 plus years in the game I have never had a big problem finding trouble, blues always exit France at the same points unless you are in Hardegens group they are a sneaky lot. Reds always exit England the same way as well for the most part. Old hands have tricks but most don't and the really exceptional I will bet never use it. If you can find a happy medium wonderful but it seems most at the moment feel this pretty good right now.
Last edited by Ohms; Jul-18-2015 at 00:05.
See. We can't even agree on what the poll tells us. (So what good is the poll?) Much less what attributes Tab7-1 should have.
Gamecock had a good idea. Eliminate Tab7-1, and give Tab4-1 Chain Home attributes.
Gamecock, i apologize if I did't say it quite right. Correct me, as necessary.
All: See Gamecock's earlier thread response for his exact words.
badfinger
Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming MB,
Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 31ghz CPU, EVGA 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram,
Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte Curved Monitor 165hz, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, Reverb G2
League City, TX
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