View Poll Results: What do you think of the current TAB-7-1 version?

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  • Is perfect as it stands now

    33 37.50%
  • I would like something different but I can live with it

    28 31.82%
  • I'm neutral or never use it

    11 12.50%
  • I don't like it because of X

    6 6.82%
  • I hate everything of it. Go back to the original version

    10 11.36%
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Thread: Current TAB7-1 Poll

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    ATAG_Colander's Avatar
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    Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Now that some time has passed for everyone to try it, please let us know what you think of the current TAB-7-1 version on ATAG server #1.

    I'm open to ideas on improvements but keep in mind that any idea can be argued to death

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Dave's Avatar
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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    The below is intended as constructive criticism

    One negative aspect from my point of view is that when tab 71 is available to you, you can effectively know you are safe by hitting it - ie that there are no planes near you (unless u had one sneak up and get within 1 mile of course) or that the nearest plane is 15 miles or whatever from you. I think this is an unintended consequence of the otherwise positive changes IMO. Its not a good thing to hit some keys button and know you are safe.

    It might be better to extend the distance within which tab 71 will not give you a result from 1 mile (or is it 1km i cant remember) to 5 miles/km or so


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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dave View Post
    The below is intended as constructive criticism

    One negative aspect from my point of view is that when tab 71 is available to you, you can effectively know you are safe by hitting it - ie that there are no planes near you (unless u had one sneak up and get within 1 mile of course) or that the nearest plane is 15 miles or whatever from you. I think this is an unintended consequence of the otherwise positive changes IMO. Its not a good thing to hit some keys button and know you are safe.

    It might be better to extend the distance within which tab 71 will not give you a result from 1 mile (or is it 1km i cant remember) to 5 miles/km or so

    Point taken and in fact I thought about that originally but the reason I made 1Km is because some people can't spot distant contacts.
    I would like to hear (read) other's opinions on this.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    Now that some time has passed for everyone to try it, please let us know what you think of the current TAB-7-1 version on ATAG server #1.

    I'm open to ideas on improvements but keep in mind that any idea can be argued to death

    Colander,

    I voted "I don't like it because of X". But, if some adjustments can be made, I would be fine with that.

    I few of things I have found are:

    It is very frustrating to be tracking a fighter, for instance, and suddenly info on a bomber pops up, and I lose the fighter. Then a fighter call out shows up. But is it the same one I was tracking before?

    I also find myself being run around in circles. One moment, the target is at 150 and 4 miles. Then, 30 seconds later, it is at 300 and 9 miles, or something like that. Then, in another 30 seconds, it is at 30 and 3 miles. How can the position change so drastically in so short a time?

    Since Tab7-1 has been modified, I have found/seen exactly 2 bombers. I think the pendulum has been swung too far, and we are way on the other side of being neutral.

    All in all, I think we are getting to where we want to be, but aren't there, yet. Some modifications seem to have resulted in unanticipated problems. Which makes you asking for input such a positive and proactive effort.

    Thanks,

    badfinger
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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dave View Post
    The below is intended as constructive criticism

    One negative aspect from my point of view is that when tab 71 is available to you, you can effectively know you are safe by hitting it - ie that there are no planes near you (unless u had one sneak up and get within 1 mile of course) or that the nearest plane is 15 miles or whatever from you. I think this is an unintended consequence of the otherwise positive changes IMO. Its not a good thing to hit some keys button and know you are safe.

    It might be better to extend the distance within which tab 71 will not give you a result from 1 mile (or is it 1km i cant remember) to 5 miles/km or so

    +10.

    I agree with Dave 100% re this and also think 5 km is a good compromise. This will introduce some uncertainty etc.

    As mentioned in an earlier thread if there was some way to encourage high alt flying it would be good. Having a high alt threshold above which tab 7 1 doesn't work or is even more degraded might be one way, but appreciate its not historical.

    I'm happy with the updated version and these are just some suggestions for tweaking it perhaps.

    Ezzie

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by 71st_AH_badfinger View Post
    Colander,

    I voted "I don't like it because of X". But, if some adjustments can be made, I would be fine with that.

    I few of things I have found are:

    It is very frustrating to be tracking a fighter, for instance, and suddenly info on a bomber pops up, and I lose the fighter. Then a fighter call out shows up. But is it the same one I was tracking before?

    I also find myself being run around in circles. One moment, the target is at 150 and 4 miles. Then, 30 seconds later, it is at 300 and 9 miles, or something like that. Then, in another 30 seconds, it is at 30 and 3 miles. How can the position change so drastically in so short a time?

    Since Tab7-1 has been modified, I have found/seen exactly 2 bombers. I think the pendulum has been swung too far, and we are way on the other side of being neutral.

    All in all, I think we are getting to where we want to be, but aren't there, yet. Some modifications seem to have resulted in unanticipated problems. Which makes you asking for input such a positive and proactive effort.

    Thanks,

    badfinger
    Badfinger - I think what is happening is that your closest tgt is dropping below 500 (or has been destroyed) and the radar then goes to the next closest tgt which then drops below 500m and the radar finds the next tgt etc. if a closer tgt then climbs above 500 you will get the big changes as you've described.

    Ezzie

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by 71st_AH_badfinger View Post
    I also find myself being run around in circles. One moment, the target is at 150 and 4 miles. Then, 30 seconds later, it is at 300 and 9 miles, or something like that. Then, in another 30 seconds, it is at 30 and 3 miles. How can the position change so drastically in so short a time?
    badfinger
    My understanding is that it reports real distance and not map distance.
    If that is true, then an aircraft that is thee miles away from you vertically, but in the same location on the map, will report as 3 miles away.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by philstyle View Post
    My understanding is that it reports real distance and not map distance.
    If that is true, then an aircraft that is thee miles away from you vertically, but in the same location on the map, will report as 3 miles away.
    Exactly as Phil said, the readout does not factor slant range. That guy probably just flew under or over you.
    Which, as I've said, is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of Tab 7-1. Players with less experience are using it as a crutch and not searching the sky above and below as they should be learning to do all the time.
    Last edited by 9./JG52 Savage; Jul-16-2015 at 08:44.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    You are correct on the distance. 3Km above you is still 3Km. It is reporting 3d distance and not 2d (map) distance.
    You are also correct about the 500m. In anyway, I see TAB-7-1 as a way to find where the action is, not to place you on a target 6.

    About bombers, you are correct, they are hard to find now but this is mainly because many of them tend to fly under the radar.

    I'm not sure how to make everyone happy. Perhaps a random spotting but that would cause even more confusion.

    Regarding the min 5Km. This change will effectively make those with issues spotting angry.
    One thing that could be an idea is this (tell me what you think)
    1.- If the target is above you closer to 5km, do not report.
    2.- if the target is bellow you closer to 1km, do not report.
    3.- All other cases, report as now.

    The above might be a good compromise between the "where is the action" and "I want to bounce this guy" and would probably also make everyone fly higher.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    1.- If the target is above you closer to 5km, do not report.
    2.- if the target is bellow you closer to 1km, do not report.
    3.- All other cases, report as now.
    it mighth depend on what is defined as above / below (i know this sounds obvious but hear me out). So if the target is only 200ft above and 4 km away it will not report, but 30 seconds later (or earlier) he is relatively 200ft below and so it will report?

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dave View Post
    it mighth depend on what is defined as above / below (i know this sounds obvious but hear me out). So if the target is only 200ft above and 4 km away it will not report, but 30 seconds later (or earlier) he is relatively 200ft below and so it will report?
    I think whatever "filter" we put in place would behave like that.
    Anyway, I just threw this on the table to see if the idea is worth thinking about in more depth or better not waste time on it.
    If is something worth perusing, I might be able to find a way around that issue. For example, if the plane is flying towards you, do "A" else do "B"

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    I think whatever "filter" we put in place would behave like that.
    Anyway, I just threw this on the table to see if the idea is worth thinking about in more depth or better not waste time on it.
    If is something worth perusing, I might be able to find a way around that issue. For example, if the plane is flying towards you, do "A" else do "B"
    Yeah i just think you might end up with co alt contacts being there in tab 71 one moment gone the next, back again and so on. But I might be wrong

    Im always a fan of keeping stuff simple hence the suggestion to just increase the range a bit. If people are literally unable to spot things at 5km (3 miles) Im surprised - or rather id be suprised if the reason they cant spot is hardware related - but again i might be wrong - the figures i suggested were just to illustrate the idea rather than stating it was the 'right' number to use - maybe 3km or 4km??.

    Spotting is something you get better at (regardless of your set up) with practice and thats part of learning the game i think (& of course most lessons in clod are learned the hard way lol).

    Anyway for considering some suggestions

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by philstyle View Post
    My understanding is that it reports real distance and not map distance.
    If that is true, then an aircraft that is thee miles away from you vertically, but in the same location on the map, will report as 3 miles away.
    I knew the target could be above or below me. So, I look all around. My problem is that the bearing and distance change more than they should in a short period of time. How can a target be 4 miles away over here, and then 9 miles away over there 30 seconds later? Maybe we need to know more about how Tab7-1 works.

    About using Tab7-1 to find the action, that's what we all do. I think. Whether that's looking for one or many targets.

    This dialog is good. We should be able to find a happy medium.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Issue: Hard to find players in scarcely populated server w/o tab-7-1 and too much info otherwise.

    Possible Mitigation
    Add logic to identify high vs low population and dynamically change tab-7-1 behavior; if possible.

    Example

    If population < 20
    30km range
    Updates every 30 secs
    Else
    1km range
    Updates every minute
    End if


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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by 71st_AH_badfinger View Post
    I knew the target could be above or below me. So, I look all around. My problem is that the bearing and distance change more than they should in a short period of time. How can a target be 4 miles away over here, and then 9 miles away over there 30 seconds later? Maybe we need to know more about how Tab7-1 works.

    About using Tab7-1 to find the action, that's what we all do. I think. Whether that's looking for one or many targets.

    This dialog is good. We should be able to find a happy medium.

    badfinger
    Because is not the same target you are getting reported....

    Imagine this:
    "Plane A" is reported at 2 miles from you while at the same time, there's "plane B" at 4 miles.
    Then "Plane A" drops bellow radar (currently 500 meters). So now, the report will show "plane B" instead.
    Now "Plane C", that was bellow radar but at 3 miles, climbs and now you get "Plane C".

    The above example would look like this:
    TAB-7-1: Enemy plane bearing 0 at 2 miles
    TAB-7-1: Enemy plane bearing 80 at 4 miles
    TAB-7-1: Enemy plane bearing 250 at 3 miles

    The other planes are still there, just bellow radar reporting altitude.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
    Issue: Hard to find players in scarcely populated server w/o tab-7-1 and too much info otherwise.

    Possible Mitigation
    Add logic to identify high vs low population and dynamically change tab-7-1 behavior; if possible.

    Example

    If population < 20
    30km range
    Updates every 30 secs
    Else
    1km range
    Updates every minute
    End if
    That has already been done (not the update but the distances) and explained in the other thread.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    I voted "I don't like it because of X but can live with it"

    I would like to see it gone completely, it is not a very good tool and as it was, could be dangerous for the new pilots to rely on who do not understand it. That being said the changes are a HUGE improvement and glad that you took the time to investigate how to modify it.

    I would rather see a C# script for missions with better simulation of GCI introduced, with Radar towers that give a realistic picture that can be disabled reporting incoming contacts and an observer corps that can't be disabled reporting contacts over friendly territory, much like what we have now in some maps in the rotation. Make this script mandatory for all maps in use. IF a map had neither a Tab 4 GCI script or the Tab 7-1 it would be a very discouraging map for most players unless there are 100 players in the server.

    TS is still the best way to find en a/c on the server when it is moderately busy.

    Ultimately if Tab 7-1 can be modified to replace the current functionality in the next TF patch with something that works like one of the better thought out C# GCI scripts that would be the perfect solution.

    My $0.02

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    Because is not the same target you are getting reported....

    Imagine this:
    "Plane A" is reported at 2 miles from you while at the same time, there's "plane B" at 4 miles.
    Then "Plane A" drops bellow radar (currently 500 meters). So now, the report will show "plane B" instead.
    Now "Plane C", that was bellow radar but at 3 miles, climbs and now you get "Plane C".

    The above example would look like this:
    TAB-7-1: Enemy plane bearing 0 at 2 miles
    TAB-7-1: Enemy plane bearing 80 at 4 miles
    TAB-7-1: Enemy plane bearing 250 at 3 miles

    The other planes are still there, just bellow radar reporting altitude.
    Which is why I get run around in circles. Maybe Tab7-1 should label targets as A, B, C etc.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    That has already been done (not the update but the distances) and explained in the other thread.
    Got it. Thanks for the time and effort.


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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by 71st_AH_badfinger View Post
    Which is why I get run around in circles. Maybe Tab7-1 should label targets as A, B, C etc.

    badfinger

    No, please no! There are games out there that have crutches like that. We don't need to start adding arcade features to our sim.

    But I do respect and have fought for your right to express your opinion. See what I did there?

    DS

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    I say do away with it all together and make Chain Home avail on all maps, plus whatever Blue equivalent. It gives you an approximation, but not a bearing. Thats my 2 cents.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    ...
    One thing that could be an idea is this (tell me what you think)
    1.- If the target is above you closer to 5km, do not report.
    2.- if the target is bellow you closer to 1km, do not report.
    3.- All other cases, report as now.
    ...
    No, no, no, I beg you. More filter rules is a bad direction.

    It imbues the spotting experience with its own "AI", so to speak. One can sense this. The more rules, the more artificial and contrived it will become and the more artificial and contrived it will quickly feel.

    I already have in my head:
    • how many people are online?
    • any kills yet?
    • what's my altitude?

    Give something an algorithm and (surprise)...it now has a behavior.

    Trying to please everyone is impossible, but the answer lies in simplicity....somewhere.
    (it always does.)

    EDIT: I voted to leave it just as it is for now. Thanks again, Colander!
    Last edited by 69th_Turn; Jul-17-2015 at 05:17.
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    Smile Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by 69th_Turn View Post
    No, no, no, I beg you. More filter rules is a bad direction.

    It imbues the spotting experience with its own "AI", so to speak. One can sense this. The more rules, the more artificial and contrived it will become and the more artificial and contrived it will quickly feel.

    I already have in my head:
    • how many people are online?
    • any kills yet?
    • what's my altitude?

    Give something an algorithm and (surprise)...it now has a behavior.

    Trying to please everyone is impossible, but the answer lies in simplicity....somewhere.
    (it always does.)
    A wise man once said, "For every difficult problem, there is a simple, easy to understand, wrong answer."

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    ...4km...5km...1km...not above(or maybe yes?)...certainly below(or maybe not!)...500mt...WHERE?I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING!!!!!

    Well guys,to tell you the truth if it's meant to be like that and having to remember all these parameters to correctly interpret the info provided using Tab-7-1...I think I would rather prefer not using it at all as the whole thing would be a total confusion.Setting aside the fact is unreliable in some cases (not few),like it was in the past.In other words it's not 100% accurate.Yesterday evening me and my buddy tried to spot a Tab-7-1 fighter (single) report near Crepon who flew in circles obviously trying to spot us, also obviously following his Tab-7-1 reports.In a matter of seconds the reports was continuously changing both bearing and distance data.After several 360's and without spotting anything no matter how hard we both tried scanning the whole area around us, I spotted a contact 10 o'clock high at about 2-3 km away which seemed to be a bomber (Blenheim) as far as I could tell from the way he flew and its size as well.Strange thing was that the Tab-7-1 report came well after we spotted the contact and finally the only useful info was the distance from target.What I'm trying to underline here is that the whole time we were chasing the fighter following Tab-7-1 reports, the bomber was flying in the very same area in close vicinity,nevertheless no report was given until we already have seen the target with our own eyes!Its altitude was several thousand meters as we flew at 1500-2500 trying to spot the fighter and the Blenheim was approximately 1500-2000Mt above us.Now, how much dependable something like this could be considered?Make things even more complicated adding other "filters" and we'll end up with something totally confusing,unreliable and at the end almost totally useless.
    So my opinion,leave it as it is for some time and wait for a better idea or compromisation come up in the future.We'll be here to discuss it.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Just to bring everyone up to date on the poll, 44% think Tab7-1 is now perfect, while 56% want something changed, don't like it at all, or are neutral.

    Today, I lost Tab7-1 after achieving .34 kills. Under the current mod, at that point, I was deemed an expert who didn't need Tab7-1, anymore. So, I spent the next two hours looking around and listening to TS without firing a shot.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Dave's Avatar
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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by 71st_AH_badfinger View Post
    Just to bring everyone up to date on the poll, 44% think Tab7-1 is now perfect, while 56% want something changed, don't like it at all, or are neutral.


    badfinger
    "there are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics...."

    I read the poll as almost half think its perfect. Another quarter think its perfectly acceptable if not their first choice A fifth dont care. The remainder dont like it.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dave View Post
    ...
    I read the poll as almost half think its perfect. Another quarter think its perfectly acceptable if not their first choice A fifth dont care. The remainder dont like it.
    That's how I interpreted it too, with some relief. Adds up to 90% saying we're done here, let's go fly.

    I'd hazard to guess.
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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Quote Originally Posted by 69th_Turn View Post
    That's how I interpreted it too, with some relief. Adds up to 90% saying we're done here, let's go fly.

    I'd hazard to guess.
    i agree with the caveat that i dont think the 'feeling safe' thing mentioned above is ideal So yes lets race...er I mean fly

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    Like my vote , I don't care!

    When saying this I mean don't have a clue how to use it unless some one smart like Rebel can give me a map reference. In my 4 plus years in the game I have never had a big problem finding trouble, blues always exit France at the same points unless you are in Hardegens group they are a sneaky lot. Reds always exit England the same way as well for the most part. Old hands have tricks but most don't and the really exceptional I will bet never use it. If you can find a happy medium wonderful but it seems most at the moment feel this pretty good right now.
    Last edited by Ohms; Jul-18-2015 at 00:05.

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    Re: Current TAB7-1 Poll

    See. We can't even agree on what the poll tells us. (So what good is the poll?) Much less what attributes Tab7-1 should have.

    Gamecock had a good idea. Eliminate Tab7-1, and give Tab4-1 Chain Home attributes.

    Gamecock, i apologize if I did't say it quite right. Correct me, as necessary.

    All: See Gamecock's earlier thread response for his exact words.

    badfinger
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