Please please create a mod that allows aileron trim in Spits and Hurricanes

[scpelly]

Dear Team Fusion

I'm new to IL2 Cliffs of Dover and I'm really excited at the potential of the game. However, I've noticed the Spits and Hurricanes have an awful sharp right bank tendency on starting the game. My joystick is calibrated and I can sort of correct the problem with rudder trim but then I end up flying in a slip (yep, that's how much rudder is needed). PLEASE could you enable aileron trim for these aircraft as that will solve the problem perfectly. I know these planes didn't have aileron trim in real life but I must say this problem is so irritating that I've stopped playing the game. Would this be difficult to enable?

Many thanks
Steve

[Mysticpuma]

Hi Steve. I'm not going to say it isn't possible but you sort of answered your own question with "I know these planes didn't have aileron trim in real life".

Team Fusion have a huge list of things to fix, create, update, improve and add BUT this is a Flight Simulator and as such the aircraft and features are designed to be historic (as much as possible) and if an aircraft didn't have trim then that's exactly how it's modelled. Moving forward in real life aircraft for WW2, it was realised trim was important, that's why new aircraft had that feature included.

We are building new aircraft and as such these will include the features they had in real life, but adding features to aircraft to make them.easier to.fly isn't what a Simulation is about, it's about simulating the difficulty had by the fledgling aviators of WW2 and as such this isn't a bug but a simulated feature.

Sorry to be negative but it's better to be honest than raise false hope for an historical inaccurate feature.

Cheers, MP

[scpelly]

Hi MP

I hear you when it comes to keeping it real but that's just the point, a sharp bank to the right with all trims neutral and stick centred isn't realistic. If anything, the aircraft should be rolling left counter to the propeller. Here's a thought, as far as I know aileron trim could be adjusted by the ground crew (on the ground obviously), so the pilot could give feedback as to whether he felt the plane was rolling one way or another at a set speed (cruising speed usually). With a bit of trial and error, the ground crew could eventually set up aileron trim to his liking. Something like that could be built into the game and adjusted under an aircraft setup menu?

Steve

[ATAG_Paranoid_Glitch]

Dear Team Fusion

I'm new to IL2 Cliffs of Dover and I'm really excited at the potential of the game. However, I've noticed the Spits and Hurricanes have an awful sharp right bank tendency on starting the game. My joystick is calibrated and I can sort of correct the problem with rudder trim but then I end up flying in a slip (yep, that's how much rudder is needed). PLEASE could you enable aileron trim for these aircraft as that will solve the problem perfectly. I know these planes didn't have aileron trim in real life but I must say this problem is so irritating that I've stopped playing the game. Would this be difficult to enable?

Many thanks
Steve

Hi Steve

I think you may find that after a week or so your hand and mind have adjusted and you automatically fly with a bit of pressure on the stick for aileron adjustment all the time without thinking about it anymore.

That has been my experience.

[Continu0]

Hi MP

I hear you when it comes to keeping it real but that's just the point, a sharp bank to the right with all trims neutral and stick centred isn't realistic. If anything, the aircraft should be rolling left counter to the propeller. Here's a thought, as far as I know aileron trim could be adjusted by the ground crew (on the ground obviously), so the pilot could give feedback as to whether he felt the plane was rolling one way or another at a set speed (cruising speed usually). With a bit of trial and error, the ground crew could eventually set up aileron trim to his liking. Something like that could be built into the game and adjusted under an aircraft setup menu?

Steve

Hey Steve

What you are mentioning about the ground crew might be right, but trim is in close relationsship with speed. So at a certain speed, even in the game as it is now, the plane will fly quite straight. Your suggested solution would probably just shift the proble to another speed-range.

But something else: Please have a look at the aileron-positions in the game (look at your virtual wing). I had some strange bugs lately where my joystick was calibrated perfectly but the game didn't seem to read the joystick-position correctly, resulting in a rolling that was way too hard. I then discovered that the ailerons were slightly off on my virtual wing. Restarting the PC/Game did solve that.

I hope I was able to help,
Conti

[1lokos]

scpelly

You problem is:

The aileron trim is adjusted - by ground crew - for cruise speed, at specific RPM, in that speed Spit fly straight all day,
but when you go full throttle or near you need compensate with control column.

Anyway, if you want a "cheat" with these programming soft for HOTAS - TARGET, CH Manager ... you can set curves that "trim" Spit (or any plane, in any game) aileron at any speed.

[scpelly]

Guys thanks for all the feedback, but I feel we're missing the main point here - my aircraft rolls strongly to the right. If anything, it should roll to the left with trims neutral and the stick centred, as the prop is spinning clockwise (viewed from the cockpit).

Is this not a "bug" in the game? I'm also not sure if everybody is experiencing this same thing. I thought it may be my joystick but it seems the Logitek Extreme 3D pro is quite popular.

[scpelly]

Conti, I think you may be on the button here. With my joystick calibrated and centred, I see that I have some aileron for right bank on my wings. If I give a small push to the left, the ailerons neutralise and the banking stops. Unfortunately however mine is consistent, restarting the game and pc doesn't help at all. Do you think it may be the Logitek Extreme 3D Pro joystick being incompatible?

Steve

Hey Steve

What you are mentioning about the ground crew might be right, but trim is in close relationsship with speed. So at a certain speed, even in the game as it is now, the plane will fly quite straight. Your suggested solution would probably just shift the proble to another speed-range.

But something else: Please have a look at the aileron-positions in the game (look at your virtual wing). I had some strange bugs lately where my joystick was calibrated perfectly but the game didn't seem to read the joystick-position correctly, resulting in a rolling that was way too hard. I then discovered that the ailerons were slightly off on my virtual wing. Restarting the PC/Game did solve that.

I hope I was able to help,
Conti

[-=7th-DR=-Milo]

Guys thanks for all the feedback, but I feel we're missing the main point here - my aircraft rolls strongly to the right. If anything, it should roll to the left with trims neutral and the stick centred, as the prop is spinning clockwise (viewed from the cockpit).

Is this not a "bug" in the game? I'm also not sure if everybody is experiencing this same thing. I thought it may be my joystick but it seems the Logitek Extreme 3D pro is quite popular.

Hi Steve

I can't offer a solution but I can say that this doesn't sound like what I'm experiencing.

I get a slight roll but more often than not I can get it trimmed out pretty well (more problematic with the hurricane).

Hope that helps.

[Continu0]

Conti, I think you may be on the button here. With my joystick calibrated and centred, I see that I have some aileron for right bank on my wings. If I give a small push to the left, the ailerons neutralise and the banking stops. Unfortunately however mine is consistent, restarting the game and pc doesn't help at all. Do you think it may be the Logitek Extreme 3D Pro joystick being incompatible?

Steve

No, you should be fine with that joystick. 2 Things:

-Could you maybe post 2 Screenshots of your ailerons? I am looking forward to seeing it!

- Try setting up a minimal deadzone in the middle... probably 10% at maximum. I remember that I fixed it that way...

If that solves the problem, your complaint will be the key to solving a hughe problem. We really had a lot of people complaining about the really strong rolling, but the community always was like "no, it is realistic, it is how it is..." (which to some degree is true). But as I experienced the way too strong rolling out of a sudden myself, I fear that many of these complaints were justified and the community was wrong with helping...

[scpelly]

OK here we have the left and right wings, it's only a slight deflection of the ailerons but most easily seen on the right wing with that aileron slightly up - but it's enough to cause quite a heavy right roll. When I get a chance, perhaps tomorrow, I'll try and record a short screen capture video. I've set my dead zone on the stick up to 30% but it has no effect on this issue.

ailerons.jpg

No, you should be fine with that joystick. 2 Things:

-Could you maybe post 2 Screenshots of your ailerons? I am looking forward to seeing it!

- Try setting up a minimal deadzone in the middle... probably 10% at maximum. I remember that I fixed it that way...

If that solves the problem, your complaint will be the key to solving a hughe problem. We really had a lot of people complaining about the really strong rolling, but the community always was like "no, it is realistic, it is how it is..." (which to some degree is true). But as I experienced the way too strong rolling out of a sudden myself, I fear that many of these complaints were justified and the community was wrong with helping...

[Continu0]

OK here we have the left and right wings, it's only a slight deflection of the ailerons but most easily seen on the right wing with that aileron slightly up - but it's enough to cause quite a heavy right roll. When I get a chance, perhaps tomorrow, I'll try and record a short screen capture video. I've set my dead zone on the stick up to 30% but it has no effect on this issue.

ailerons.jpg

Where did you set up the deadzone? Ingame or in the stick-drivers?

[scpelly]

I've tried both. I'll check it again but as far as I remember the dead zone made absolutely no difference even with values as high as 30%. It's as if the game is reading a different 0 point for the joystick.

Where did you set up the deadzone? Ingame or in the stick-drivers?

[Continu0]

I've tried both. I'll check it again but as far as I remember the dead zone made absolutely no difference even with values as high as 30%. It's as if the game is reading a different 0 point for the joystick.

But can you feel the deadzone? I mean if you set up 30%, 30% of your axis should be empty, meaning that you really have to push the joystick to have any effect at all... do you feel that?

Btw. thx for the screenshots, your ailerons really seem to be off...

[scpelly]

Yep, I can feel the dead zone - in fact it makes things worse because I need a larger input before I can begin to correct the roll to the right. Here's something else that may help you - I unplugged the joystick and restarted the game - I get the exact same thing. If you guys can solve this problem that would be wonderful!

But can you feel the deadzone? I mean if you set up 30%, 30% of your axis should be empty, meaning that you really have to push the joystick to have any effect at all... do you feel that?

Btw. thx for the screenshots, your ailerons really seem to be off...

[Mysticpuma]

Do you have rudder pedals, a gamepad, anything else plugged in?

[E69_Mezzer]

Hi Steve

You may have the axis of your joystick assigned to the roll off-centered. There is a calibration software for joysticks and other hardware axes called DIView. It´s a lot of better than the Windows utility and much more precise and easier to check and get your hardware calibrated. Here is a link to download DIView --> DIView.zip

And a video tutorial on how to use it.




Hope this helps
Regards Kelso

[Continu0]

hey

Btw. do you have that in other games too, or just in cliffs? Because if other games work fine, it is just not the joystick but cliffs!

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

CLIFFS OF DOVER is a historically based Simulation.

For that reason we do not make changes to aircraft which are not historical.

The historical Spitfire and Hurricane did not have aileron trim, and we will not incorporate it in the game.

Re. how the default trim is set:

Based on research, we determined historical cruise speed and rpm/throttle settings, and set the aileron trim to allow the aircraft to be in trim at that point.

[1lokos]

For that reason we do not make changes to aircraft which are not historical.

BTW - Looks that G-50 have more trim that should.

[scpelly]

Its just in Cliffs. I also fly the P51 in DCS and that is fine. Rise of flight is also fine.

hey

Btw. do you have that in other games too, or just in cliffs? Because if other games work fine, it is just not the joystick but cliffs!

[scpelly]

Buzzsaw, if this is the case please explain to me why my aircraft rolls to the right and not to the left, as would be expected?

CLIFFS OF DOVER is a historically based Simulation.

For that reason we do not make changes to aircraft which are not historical.

The historical Spitfire and Hurricane did not have aileron trim, and we will not incorporate it in the game.

Re. how the default trim is set:

Based on research, we determined historical cruise speed and rpm/throttle settings, and set the aileron trim to allow the aircraft to be in trim at that point.

[ATAG_Dave]

Buzzsaw, if this is the case please explain to me why my aircraft rolls to the right and not to the left, as would be expected?

Spitfires do not only roll to the right - it depends on your speed.......

[scpelly]

Just to be clear this is exactly what is happening:

With gyroscopic effects turned on:
At engine idle, very strong roll to the right
At medium throttle, rolls to the right
At full throttle, more gentle roll to the right (surely this should be left?)

With gyroscopic effects turned off:
Strong roll to the right

Joystick works fine in Rise of flight, and flying the P51 in DCS

Spitfires do not only roll to the right - it depends on your speed.......

[E69_Mezzer]

Just to be clear this is exactly what is happening:

With gyroscopic effects turned on:
At engine idle, very strong roll to the right
At medium throttle, rolls to the right
At full throttle, more gentle roll to the right (surely this should be left?)

With gyroscopic effects turned off:
Strong roll to the right

Joystick works fine in Rise of flight, and flying the P51 in DCS

Hi scpelly,

Assuming that your joystick is actually properly calibrated and is not giving any input roll in the center position, the ailerons should be aligned with the wings.
Please try the following to troubleshoot the issue:

Go to the game Options/Realism, untick the following options to set them off:

Engines
-Complex Engine Management
-Engine Temperature Effects

Atmosphere and Handling
-Wind and turbulence
-Flutter Effects
-Torque and Gyro Effects
-Stalls and Spins

-Make sure that the Anthropomorphic Control is untick, off.

Get into your favorite single engine fighter plane, take off and fly around. Before take off check your ailerons position, joystick neutral the ailerons should be aligned with wing, no roll input.
Go back to the game Options/Realism and set the previous options back to on except the Anthropomorphic Control, it should be off all the time. Jump again into your single engine plane and test again.

[Baaz]

Try setting the sensitivity for x, and y axis to zero from in game options....I have found that the aircraft is very responsive to your joystick inputs when you set the sensitivity to zero.

[Baffin]

Hi Steve. I'm not going to say it isn't possible but you sort of answered your own question with "I know these planes didn't have aileron trim in real life".

Team Fusion have a huge list of things to fix, create, update, improve and add BUT this is a Flight Simulator and as such the aircraft and features are designed to be historic (as much as possible) and if an aircraft didn't have trim then that's exactly how it's modelled. Moving forward in real life aircraft for WW2, it was realised trim was important, that's why new aircraft had that feature included.

We are building new aircraft and as such these will include the features they had in real life, but adding features to aircraft to make them.easier to.fly isn't what a Simulation is about, it's about simulating the difficulty had by the fledgling aviators of WW2 and as such this isn't a bug but a simulated feature.

Sorry to be negative but it's better to be honest than raise false hope for an historical inaccurate feature.

Cheers, MP

That's not negative! That's the reason we enjoy CLoD so much... Realism!

[arnesw]

That's not negative! That's the reason we enjoy CLoD so much... Realism!

For my part - that's why I don't enjoy CLoD at all. There are options to switch off just about any other realism feature, including torque effects, but this one - that clearly annoys a lot of potential users - is apparently a 'realism' feature that is too important to sacrifice for the sake of playability.

I have no right to demand a fix, of course. If this is how you feel it should be - that's fine. To me, this single issue is the deal breaker.

[Tibsun]

Please check out your callibration, for general controllers on W7 go to your device, right mouse then controller settings and open your callibration with control + shift + left mouse at properties and recalibrate it there if it is off.

To fly hands free, fly as slow and center your "ball" with rudder (important to stop slip an roll too!) until your handsfree with your power settings. Your gonna need to climb anyway.
If it's still a problem you might get an weaker stick or take out the spring.

[SIA_Sp00k]

For my part - that's why I don't enjoy CLoD at all. There are options to switch off just about any other realism feature, including torque effects, but this one - that clearly annoys a lot of potential users - is apparently a 'realism' feature that is too important to sacrifice for the sake of playability.

I have no right to demand a fix, of course. If this is how you feel it should be - that's fine. To me, this single issue is the deal breaker.

There is a flip side to that story. While I accept what you say broadens the player base for offline play, it's the difficulty online, which levels the playing field in multiplayer that keeps me there. Every aircraft has its own nuances. Every player has to deal with and learn from them, using their strengths and avoiding their weaknesses. As a result, there a players I fear, not because they are better than me, but because they know their aircraft and its strengths better than I know my own. This challenge inspires me to learn more and continually seek to best my previous efforts. Some I may never beat and in that I shall always have a game with an element of fear in the air. All those little settings add up to my gaming experience and keeps me coming back.

I know there are players that will only ever play offline. Often, I see other offline pilots posts which say, I am not ready yet for online play. If the options are there which allow easy play, many will never challenge themselves to be better than they have to be for AI aircraft. Improvement through adversity, sounds good to me.

Hope you take the plunge and join us online.