This is a fascinating discussion - especially for someone new to the PC sim/gaming world (but experienced in real planes - including dogfighting in jets - and in military fighter sims). Some background - I'm not flying CLOD yet (waiting to build up a suitable PC to do it justice) but have been flying IL-2 for a while, and play around with sims like Condor, etc. My flying experience includes a career in the USAF as an F-4E WSO, and a second (current) career as a flight sim test engineer for a large US aerospace company, working on a variety of fighter sims. I also fly and race my own glider (LS6-b) and tow gliders in a Pawnee and Supercub. I've been lucky enough to get stick time in a variety of jets (T-33, 37, 38, F-4, F-16, F-104, A-4) and some piston warbirds (Stearman, T-6, T-28B). Yes, I'm lucky, but I work at it! Bottom line, I think I have a bit of experience to compare flying a sim with flying a real plane.
What is most interesting is the comments about wanting a light stick. I currently fly IL2 with a CH setup, and have used a Logitech Extreme Pro, and find them both to be WAY TOO LIGHT in feel. And watching some of the videos of sims, it seems many are flying the planes like video games, with little regard to G-onset and the effect of high G loads on both the plane and the pilot! While this is undoubtedly fun, and probably the way to win fights in the sim environment, it is TOTALLY UNREALISTIC!
Some numbers off the top of my head (specifics can be found online). For fighters, around 5 - 7 lbs/G was regarded as the optimum stick force needed for WW2 fighters; and is still about the same for jets today (the F-15 requires about that, up to 35 lbs pull for max G). What that means is that to pull hard into a 6 G turn, you need to pull with 30 to 42 lbs of force. Some planes were known for light elevators (Spitfire comes to mind) while some had really heavy elevators (P-51Ds) - and of course, in the days before boosted controls, this could increase with airspeed to the point where both hands were needed to maneuver the plane.
And there is a really good reason for this: It keeps you from breaking the plane or G-Locking yourself! BTDT and it isn't fun at all - 9Gs not only hurt, but if you pass out, you are now an easy target for your opponent. And if you break your plane...
What is also missing is just how physically demanding a dogfight is! 5 - 10 minutes at 5 Gs and you are exhausted. If you carefully read WW2 combat reports (or even look carefully at gun camera footage) you can find examples of pilots who just quit trying after a long dogfight and got shot flying straight and level. Because that feeling of letting off the G's is wonderful, and was probably the last thing they felt...
Ideally, you would have light ailerons at all speeds (combined with a fast roll rate - think FW-190) combined with "comfortable" elevators that don't force you to use both hands (P-47) but stiffen up a bit at speed, and a responsive but heavy rudder (since you are using your strong leg muscles) to control any yaw due to torque or use of ailerons and keep the ball centered for accurate shooting. Controls that become impossible to move at high speeds seriously affected tactics and often meant the difference between winning and losing a fight; examples are the aileron problems with early Spitfires or the superiority of the P-38's elevator compared to the Bf-109 when pulling out of a dive at high speed and low altitude.
Of course, since we are limited to simple joysticks, compromises need to be made. It would be nice if someone came out with a new FFB stick that stiffened up at speed realistically, that combined with a longer stick would go a long way towards making these great sims more representative of the real thing. Meanwhile, I'll probably have to spring for a TM (with an extension) ;^).
So - if you are big into twitch gaming and love those long violent dogfights - go for it! But don't kid yourself about how realistic it is... One pass, shoot, break, bug out, regroup - that's what kept Hartman, Marseille, Bong etc alive so long.
Cheers, and looking forward to the steep learning curve when i finally get my Clod working!
Check 6 - Vulture
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Originally Posted by Highseas
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