Joystick Centre Tension....

[ATAG_Lewis]

I remember when I first started flight simming and flying the original IL-2...I had a Saitek Cyborg Evo as a backup to my Microsoft Sidewinder 2 and just to try a different stick....Compared to my Sidewinder 2 which was the spring version (Not FFB) the centre tension was very high....It almost felt in a dogfight like I was fighting 2 foes...the enemy and the tension on the joystick...My very first stick was a Logitech Extreme 3D which also suffered from this strong centering issue but at the time I knew no better...I never really found a solution until I got my first Sidewinder 2...and since then haven't really looked back...I sold the Evo and cut up the 3D Pro to make a trim slider...

I struck me that there are a lot of sticks out there which have way too much resistance to be competitive dogfighting joysticks..

Anyway...

I have been flying with a new player recently who has a Warthog...he was snap rolling in hard turns with me when we tested some basic manoeuvres...It occured to me that his issue seemed as if he was having that tough time of trying to find the crucial degree on the stick between snap roll and maximum hard turn which would be a lot harder (IMO) with a stick that had strong resistance....Something that in a dogfight you need to master....I quizzed him about the centre spring tension and he said it was pretty strong...Just the fact that long hours flying would be unbearable with a strong spring I wondered if any other folks have trouble with strong spring tension in dogfights....and have sought any solutions...Since then I have googled this issue with the Warthog and apparently many folks have worked at Mods and solutions to this issue with this particular stick....

Although why on earth knowing that this would be an issue would an expensive stick manufacturer not put in a variable tensioner or provide different strength centre springs to be interchanged for preference, I don't know...After all we are not all the same strength as human beings are we?

My issue is that with any joystick you need some resistance and centering spring...but that if that resistance is too strong then finding accurate positions in stick movement for things like turning would be a whole lot harder the stronger the stick was and not just a matter of preference...Imagine this...Two weight lifters are bench pressing a weight...One has a manageable but heavy weight and the other has no weight at all...A mark is positioned half way up an upright ruler that they have to pass through with their bar...They are asked push up their bars until their bar is level with the mark and hold...In the same way as a weight lifter needs a high energy to move a heavy weight the one with the heavy weight would find it a lot harder to be accurate at the same time as someone who is lifting with no weight...

My point is here that it is harder to be accurate if you have strong resistance in anything and that a joystick is just the same.......A joystick that has a little bit of manageable resistance is a lot more accurate than one that has high resistance in dogfights....Am I correct in that physics?

I wanted to ask the community what they thought?...what is the physics behind this?.....soft spring or strong is better for dogfighting...?

[1lokos]

Although why on earth knowing that this would be an issue would an expensive stick manufacturer not put in a variable tensioner or provide different strength centre springs to be interchanged for preference, I don't know...After all we are not all the same strength as human beings are we?

X-55 come with 4 different springs for exchange, from soft to hard.

VKB new CAM gimbal come with 2 options of CAM - soft and hard center, and 2 sets of springs with different tension, allow for example have a hard pitch and a soft roll, or vice versa.

Warthog + extension became "soft", due lever effect.

Tm joysticks come with hard springs since end of 90's because follow the jet sim pilots motto: "Hard is realistic"...

Moreover different people have different preferences on the matter.

[9./JG52 Mindle]

This is a picture of a Warthog user: note the overdeveloped right arm.



Kidding, that's not true!

Seriously though, you get used to the WH quite quickly and I find using a sensitivity curve in the axis joystick set up of around 0.80 for elevator and aileron gives good control.

Also gets your bowling arm in shape for the cricket season.

[JG27-Gaidin]

This is actually funny from my stand point. In the original IL2 I ran across a video put out my MysticPuma that involved cutting out the center of a DVD case to stiffen up a X52. I flew that way for 8 to 10 years until the Joystick wore out. When the new stick arrived I found I no longer liked the stiffness of the stick and started flying commando. I now fly without the added tension that the DVD case cut-out added. Not sure if it has anything to do with the different games or if Saitek changed the springs in the X52.

Gaidin

[ATAG_Dave]

I have been flying with a new player recently who has a Warthog...he was snap rolling in hard turns with me when we tested some basic manoeuvres...It occured to me that his issue seemed as if he was having that tough time of trying to find the crucial degree on the stick between snap roll and maximum hard turn which would be a lot harder (IMO) with a stick that had strong resistance....

The stock WH is quite stiff for sure compared to most. But I doubt its the cause of the above for the new player. You very quickly adapt to the strength of the spring (its not THAT hard - its not gonna be a substitute for a workout lol) and the WH is a very accurate stick. Its more likely to be an issue with how he has the non linearity curves set as Mindle suggests (possibly combined with being a new player - no disrespect intended - clod is a hard game to learn). If he is using the excellent T.A.R.G.E.T software he can adjust it there, if not he can do so by adjusting the very counter intuitive and badly named in-game 'sensitivity' setting in the axis menu - the higher the sensitivity figure, the less 'sensitive' the stick will be apart from at the extremes of stick travel.

A lot of people seem to like the WH with an extension which as well as reducing the stiffness through the lever effect must also give greater range of movement of the stick (again because its a longer lever) and so presumably be more precise.

The WH is a great stick - but I still like my MSFFB better

[1lokos]

If the second X-52 one is PRO version, in this the spring system is different, with 2 spring concentric.

[ATAG_((dB))]

I made this easy modification with my WT and I fly it with 2 finger.It give me continuous precision for the looooooooooong session in you guys company

[Baffin]

There are a lot of mods available for loosening up a warthog. Since I prefer the stick between my knees, I opted for a four inch (80 mm) extension. It was easy to fashion from PVC pipe and garden hose fittings, and retains good centering tension. The modification is totally external, requiring no disassembly other than the designed screw connections used for initial assembly after unboxing it.

These are also available to buy...

[ATAG_Highseas]

The stock WH is quite stiff for sure compared to most. But I doubt its the cause of the above for the new player. You very quickly adapt to the strength of the spring (its not THAT hard - its not gonna be a substitute for a workout lol) and the WH is a very accurate stick. Its more likely to be an issue with how he has the non linearity curves set as Mindle suggests (possibly combined with being a new player - no disrespect intended - clod is a hard game to learn). If he is using the excellent T.A.R.G.E.T software he can adjust it there, if not he can do so by adjusting the very counter intuitive and badly named in-game 'sensitivity' setting in the axis menu - the higher the sensitivity figure, the less 'sensitive' the stick will be apart from at the extremes of stick travel.

A lot of people seem to like the WH with an extension which as well as reducing the stiffness through the lever effect must also give greater range of movement of the stick (again because its a longer lever) and so presumably be more precise.

The WH is a great stick - but I still like my MSFFB better

Hehe ! Dont worry ! I don't get offended from input! (yes it is me of whom ATAG_Lewis speaks)

And for sure I need practice in the turns.

It's a hell of a learning curve this game... but man... how much fun ?!


I had a saitex x-52 pro before the warthog which was MILES softer to use.

An extention on the warthog would no doubt help massively for accuracy, but prices are.. erm... the kids need shoes ok... !

I'm going to play around with alternative springs... my aim being to make the stick loose enough for easy of turn, but still retain the centering... which is an absolute must for some of the other games I play.

I will let you know how I get on !

Its possible i guess that I end up right back with it as standard... but i doubt it...

greased up with castrol LM made a significant difference....

but yeah... i still think its on the overly stiff side.

And I too am amazed that there are no officially produced alternative springs. To me its a no brainer... to my mind it really should have at least three alternatives ranging form stock AC10, floppy as hell, and a mid range best of both worlds.

basically i like this stick a LOT. But its not perfect. Not yet.

See you up there chaps !

[ATAG_Highseas]

Oh also... ATAG_Septic offered some advice and he has already done this himself... but wasn't sure on the springs he settled on...

Given that it's not just spring length or wire diameter that govens spring tension it kinda makes sence that I need to start from scratch really...

I'm just copying him... (Cheers Septic!)

[Vadr]

I'm with Mindle & Dave. If I was snap-rolling out of hard turns, I'd look first at linearity curves, not spring tension. I fly a Warthog and I love it, especially the stiffness, which I think adds precision, but I'm an old hand (20+ years) at this stuff and understand that everyone has different preferences.

I'd go down the linearity curve path for a while before I started modding my stick.

My 2 pfennings, YMMV. Best of luck and welcome to the game.

[ATAG_Highseas]

I'm with Mindle & Dave. If I was snap-rolling out of hard turns, I'd look first at linearity curves, not spring tension. I fly a Warthog and I love it, especially the stiffness, which I think adds precision, but I'm an old hand (20+ years) at this stuff and understand that everyone has different preferences.

I'd go down the linearity curve path for a while before I started modding my stick.

My 2 pfennings, YMMV. Best of luck and welcome to the game.

Tell you what does help rather a lot..... putting the stick dead centre of the monitor rather than out on the right hand side. (As in where its supposed to be in the plane). Still gonna mess with the springs mind. It's too stiff for my liking, not by masses... but enough to bother me.

I defeninately take the general point none the less. I definatley need to put a few more hours practice in... basically figure out what these planes are "supposed" to be capable of and what they are not supposed to eba able to achieve.

Basically figure out where the limits are regards stable turning.

Cheers chaps!

[ATAG_Lewis]

As you go into a hard turn you need to aileron over and then pull back....You need to be able to find the sweet spot quickly in a fight...That only comes with practice....Experienced players will get close to that point immediately and then pull slightly harder to maximise the turn and that is when the aircraft will threaten to snap roll...You need to be aware that that is what the aircraft will do and be ready to correct that snap roll with the minimum amount of aileron whilst still keeping hard turn...That's where a lighter joystick will help...

Its all about getting to that sweet spot as fast as you can and holding it...without snap rolling...

In a knife fight you need to be able to do this in both left and right hard turns...

You will learn a lot faster if you get involved with the fighters more often....You will be forced over and over to get use to it....I would suggest for a few days just finding the enemy and going for a fight irrelevant of advantage or disadvantage...That's what I did in the early days...Get as much dogfighting experience as you can and don't worry about getting tagged...You will be a lot better pilot/player for that and spawning in time and again is a luxury the real pilots didn't get...

There are some moves I did out of pure desperation in those first few weeks that stay with me today....because they worked then and still do...

[ATAG_Highseas]

Mini update.

There seem to be two approaches to lightening this stick (assuming like me you actually want to).

One is to uprate the four lower springs with somthing a bit "sproingier" leaving the big spring as is and put it back together, the other is to remove the huge spring entirely and move the four springs from below to above the "slidey uppey-downey bit" inside the base of the stick.

Having now played around with a few sets of springs in both configurations I am very close to achieving what I was after.... lightest possible stick that still accurately self centres.

When I started this I was hoping that I would be able to specify a suitable spring for anyone wanting to try this out, so they could just order, fit and move on... but I've since come to the conclusion that it's only really going to work as a trial and error type affair. The differences between springs that look and feel very similar can be pretty large.

For my part I have ditched the massive sporing and installed different, "sproingier" springs up top slightly shorter as it goes, but clearly with a hirder spring rate. It's only just self centering now so I intend to shim it up with some plain washers between the underside top plate and the top of the spring until it centers reliabley.

I'm obviously keeing the main spring and the original four smaller springs just in case my solution doesn't work indefinitly, though I see no particular reason why it wont.... either way I can put it back to stock in minutes should I want to... which after all at that price makes a lot of sence.

Then I'm going to practice flying more... a lot more !

See you up there...

[Vlerkies]

Mini update.

There seem to be two approaches to lightening this stick (assuming like me you actually want to).

One is to uprate the four lower springs with somthing a bit "sproingier" leaving the big spring as is and put it back together, the other is to remove the huge spring entirely and move the four springs from below to above the "slidey uppey-downey bit" inside the base of the stick.

Having now played around with a few sets of springs in both configurations I am very close to achieving what I was after.... lightest possible stick that still accurately self centres.

When I started this I was hoping that I would be able to specify a suitable spring for anyone wanting to try this out, so they could just order, fit and move on... but I've since come to the conclusion that it's only really going to work as a trial and error type affair. The differences between springs that look and feel very similar can be pretty large.

For my part I have ditched the massive sporing and installed different, "sproingier" springs up top slightly shorter as it goes, but clearly with a hirder spring rate. It's only just self centering now so I intend to shim it up with some plain washers between the underside top plate and the top of the spring until it centers reliabley.

I'm obviously keeing the main spring and the original four smaller springs just in case my solution doesn't work indefinitly, though I see no particular reason why it wont.... either way I can put it back to stock in minutes should I want to... which after all at that price makes a lot of sence.

Then I'm going to practice flying more... a lot more !

See you up there...

Alternatively just have a new custom center spring made up.
Heres mine

[ATAG_Highseas]

Alternatively just have a new custom center spring made up.
Heres mine

Ohhh... where from? what spring rate etc! Tell me !!


The only downside to my springs on top version is that it gets a bit tight at the extream outer edges... hardly noticable, and easy to calibrate out. But you could say not 100% perfection.

but using it....

it's night a day.

may well be prefence to some degree... but i just went fron cant turn for toffee to look at me swooping.

WAY easier.

No way im going back to stock now.

[ATAG_((dB))]

Ohhh... where from? what spring rate etc! Tell me !!

LOL this thread posting number 7

[Vlerkies]

Ohhh... where from? what spring rate etc! Tell me !

I just took Hog Joystick and went to a local engineering shop that does this stuff and manufactures springs and explained to the guy what I was looking to accomplish with a spring mod.
I explained the stiffness on the center and let him test for himself. Then dismantled the thing on the counter and showed him the springs.
Best to target someone with a grey beard when trying to relay this information

They measured up the center spring and I went back the next day to pick up 4 custom made springs to different tensions.
They can manipulate the tension by the number of coils and the material thickness/strength.

NOTE: one key consideration is that because the spring is in a confined space, stress to the person doing the work that the custom spring when 'compressed' must not have a greater height than the stock spring when compressed.
If it does it will restrict the stick movement through the full axis. I figured this out afterwards only.

It's not quite 100%, but pretty darn close to it for me. I need to actually stiffen up the 4 smaller springs a little, but haven't bothered yet. The 4 small springs work against the main one. The stick (without any springs) is front heavy by design, so with my custom main spring, it sometimes centers leaning a little forward. This could easily be fixed with a tension up of the 4 smaller springs. It just doesn't bother me enough (if at all) to do it.

I see you live in the UK. I have it on good authority that pretty much anything can be fabricated there in a shed in the backyard by old men in blue coats, so you should not struggle to get a few springs made up to test.


I did try the other quick mods mentioned and they were not to my liking at all.

[Vlerkies]

LOL this thread posting number 7

Different mod, and that makes it pretty floppy.

[ATAG_((dB))]

Not at all if you ad the suggest washer. In the same time I never tried your's. I did that one since that was well explain, easy to do and that it works.

[Vlerkies]

Each to their own. I went through that process.

[ATAG_Highseas]

Just to finish this one...

Been flying without the main spring and with my trial and error sourced springs on top of the slidey plate for a while. Works well.

Got a parcel today from my American niece. A packet of the Hillman Group springs made in Michigan.

I put the main spring back in with those under the slidey plate in place of the stock ones.

It's a tiny bit stiffer than I have had these past couple of months but noticeably smoother. Presumably because that main spring gives constant load around the top of the slidey plate that four individual springs up top can't acheive.

Centres perfectly too.

Still WAY softer than standard. In short it now feels great.

There we go.... We have closure....

[FS~Fenice_1965]

I remember when I first started flight simming and flying the original IL-2...I had a Saitek Cyborg Evo as a backup to my Microsoft Sidewinder 2 and just to try a different stick....Compared to my Sidewinder 2 which was the spring version (Not FFB) the centre tension was very high....It almost felt in a dogfight like I was fighting 2 foes...the enemy and the tension on the joystick...My very first stick was a Logitech Extreme 3D which also suffered from this strong centering issue but at the time I knew no better...I never really found a solution until I got my first Sidewinder 2...and since then haven't really looked back...I sold the Evo and cut up the 3D Pro to make a trim slider...

I struck me that there are a lot of sticks out there which have way too much resistance to be competitive dogfighting joysticks..

Anyway...

I have been flying with a new player recently who has a Warthog...he was snap rolling in hard turns with me when we tested some basic manoeuvres...It occured to me that his issue seemed as if he was having that tough time of trying to find the crucial degree on the stick between snap roll and maximum hard turn which would be a lot harder (IMO) with a stick that had strong resistance....Something that in a dogfight you need to master....I quizzed him about the centre spring tension and he said it was pretty strong...Just the fact that long hours flying would be unbearable with a strong spring I wondered if any other folks have trouble with strong spring tension in dogfights....and have sought any solutions...Since then I have googled this issue with the Warthog and apparently many folks have worked at Mods and solutions to this issue with this particular stick....

Although why on earth knowing that this would be an issue would an expensive stick manufacturer not put in a variable tensioner or provide different strength centre springs to be interchanged for preference, I don't know...After all we are not all the same strength as human beings are we?

My issue is that with any joystick you need some resistance and centering spring...but that if that resistance is too strong then finding accurate positions in stick movement for things like turning would be a whole lot harder the stronger the stick was and not just a matter of preference...Imagine this...Two weight lifters are bench pressing a weight...One has a manageable but heavy weight and the other has no weight at all...A mark is positioned half way up an upright ruler that they have to pass through with their bar...They are asked push up their bars until their bar is level with the mark and hold...In the same way as a weight lifter needs a high energy to move a heavy weight the one with the heavy weight would find it a lot harder to be accurate at the same time as someone who is lifting with no weight...

My point is here that it is harder to be accurate if you have strong resistance in anything and that a joystick is just the same.......A joystick that has a little bit of manageable resistance is a lot more accurate than one that has high resistance in dogfights....Am I correct in that physics?

I wanted to ask the community what they thought?...what is the physics behind this?.....soft spring or strong is better for dogfighting...?

Hi Lew !
I have the Warthog and had a lot of other joysticks of opposite approach (CH and Saitek X52 for instance). In my opinion, flying prop planes the Warthog is too much stiff. The precision of the hall sensors and the general building quality of the stick make it a better choice than other joystick I had, but the stiffness is a limit to accurate manouvers in many cases.
Recently I bought a 7,5 cm extension and I can say that with that mod it has become the best stick I can imagine. I found a night and day difference with Battle of Stalingrad where I found a lot easier to counteract the notorious "woobling" of the planes and a lot easier to get accurate shots. In my opinion the stiffness contrasts accuracy when you have to make fast moves (like it happens more - in my opinion - using prop planes than jets).

[ATAG_Lewis]

Good to see you Fen....my old friend...~S~

[FS~Fenice_1965]

~S~ my friend,
I am always around even if I do not play so much.
Always a pleasure to stay in touch with such a passionate community

[ATAG_Highseas]

In my opinion, flying prop planes the Warthog is too much stiff.

Totally agree.

The only way I have been able to use this stick to it's full potential was to mess about changing springs untill I could get the stick as light as possible such that it can still (only just) centre itself.

Out of the box it's just a constant fight. Not sure about for jets, presumably perfect for the A10, (I have no idea...) ... but I totally agree in respect of flying single prop '40s planes in this particular sim.

I looked at the extentions since that makes a lot of sence technically but I just can't justify £60 on a threaded tube and I don't really want the stick any higher on my desk than it already is.

The absolute cheapest option as far as all my many versions of messing about goes is actually to leave it stock with the main spring in, but add two plain washers beneath each of the small lower springs. (yes... I changed it AGAIN already from my previous post above). And I may even change back to one of my previous "cures". I have many options now !

Whichever method... for me its got to be as light as possible... which fairly oviously is 'just about' able to recentre.

Not gonna post any more on this topic...

If anyone want's any advice or further info on the multitude of options I've tried feel free to PM me. Always happy to share.

[ATAG_Lewis]

Sounds good....The MSFFB2 actually is different centre strength depending on how fast you are travelling because it is electric motors inside that move it and keep it straight....So the more airflow over the control surfaces and the more input you need to move them...which is probably more realistic....The centring strength is never that strong and still easily manageable when flying full tilt...

As for not posting on this thread...well I'd still like to hear how you get on if you settle on anything in the future...Its always good as some folks do follow technical threads like this without ever posting...I don't even have the stick and its been a good read so far...lol

[9./JG52 Mindle]

I hope I remember how this lot goes back together

[9./JG52 Mindle]

Yup, back better than ever!

£3 of silicone bearing grease and some fine wet n dry paper and some patience.

'Sticktion' cured!

[ATAG_Highseas]

£4 bag of M6 shims...

LM grease.

(yes I switched it all out again again again !! )

My tinkering here is done. Very happy now.