109's always force we low and slow

[Dai-San]

One of the major things I find is that 109 pilots are also very well organised and disciplined. You only have to watch most of the youtube videos and you see them talking, co-ordinating and dropping in and out on enemies in sequence which does led to you thinking "How the hell is this guy attacking me so often and so easily" when in fact it is 2 or 3 109's in a pack.

[QB.Creep]

I love this forum - I came across this thread while searching for something completely unrelated. Man, what a wealth of information there is in here. Thanks to everyone that contributed!

[Kalthios]

The 109 has more power than the Spit. Unless you engage with more fighters, with surprise, or with much higher energy, you're going to get shot down.

[ATAG_NakedSquirrel]

I like these ol' red vs blue posts so I'll throw more wood into the fire.

One of the major things I find is that 109 pilots are also very well organised and disciplined. You only have to watch most of the youtube videos and you see them talking, co-ordinating and dropping in and out on enemies in sequence which does led to you thinking "How the hell is this guy attacking me so often and so easily" when in fact it is 2 or 3 109's in a pack.

Flying both sides, I have to say it's somewhat of fallacy to say that 109 pilots are just "more organized".

The BnZ tactics sort of forces you to properly coordinate your attacks. It's easier to see a wingman dive in for a hit and run attack and take your turn to strike after he finishes.

Spitfires/Hurricanes have the problem of fixating on targets of opportunity. The Spitfire can stick like glue to the tail end of a 109 that has equal energy, so you'll often find more than 1 Spit fixating on the 109 with the lowest altitude/E... meanwhile 109 pilots are trying to shoot down the Spitfire with the highest altitude...

Dogfights are all about the E (Speed+Altitude), and Spits often start with less altitude and less speed and wind up stuck that way because they are breaking to avoid attacks.

It's really important for Spits to stagger the altitude of their elements, spread out attackers, and fight for altitude.

Which is a lot more than you usually have to do in a 109, which is: pick on the highest Spit.

I find the Spit easy to fly and hard to coordinate.

The 109 is harder to fly but easier to coordinate.

But they're both fun

[ATAG_Endless]

Sorry I meant loose speed in tight turn not right turn...

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Hi Rob when you are in a defensive turn Keep your nose as level as possible or with a slight nose down the spit will retain energy more efficiently.

When in the turn you can try and ruse the 109 pilot.
As soon as you see him start to climb level out your plane and start a slight climb and a gentle turn in the direction of the 109. Even the most diligent 109 pilots get excited and try and attack as quickly as possible thus instead of climbing up and setting up a proper attack the 109 pilot will try and resume the attack as soon as he can therefore he will waste allot of energy in an attempt to resume his attack soon he'll find he has lost significant energy and you'll have a bit more of a even playing field .

The Spitfire is a wonderful airplane but it does require a gentle touch and you have to be smooth with the control surfaces to retain its energy

[Vlerkies]

When in the turn you can try and ruse the 109 pilot.
As soon as you see him start to climb level out your plane and start a slight climb and a gentle turn in the direction of the 109. Even the most diligent 109 pilots get excited and try and attack as quickly as possible thus instead of climbing up and setting up a proper attack the 109 pilot will try and resume the attack as soon as he can therefore he will waste allot of energy in an attempt to resume his attack soon he'll find he has lost significant energy and you'll have a bit more of a even playing field .

Guilty as charged

[Nightdare]

Meh, these days the 109s are hammerheading on your tail in distances you can't follow with a Spit unless you're willing to lose more E than stall speed
If 109s were a difficult plane to fly IRL, I'm not seeing it ingame (even had a 109 turn a stall spin 500 feet above ground and recover then get on my tail and shoot me down, if I pull that stunt with a Spit or Hurry, all that is needed is a headstone with the crater I leave behind)

Half decent 109 pilots don't need to care about E, they'll turn with you until their slats give them the advantage and if they don't get you the first time, rocket 3000 feet in the air with superior engine power,
leaving you down there just to become another inevitable strikethrough roundel on their fuselage
Lately, whenever I find myself hunted by a 109, I just give up, can't counter them in any way, can't climb with them, can't dive with them, and more often than once, can't turn with them, even to the point I'm blacking out, they still get their shots in or evade my shots getting in them

[9./JG52 Sturm]

Meh, these days the 109s are hammerheading on your tail in distances you can't follow with a Spit unless you're willing to lose more E than stall speed
If 109s were a difficult plane to fly IRL, I'm not seeing it ingame (even had a 109 turn a stall spin 500 feet above ground and recover then get on my tail and shoot me down, if I pull that stunt with a Spit or Hurry, all that is needed is a headstone with the crater I leave behind)

Half decent 109 pilots don't need to care about E, they'll turn with you until their slats give them the advantage and if they don't get you the first time, rocket 3000 feet in the air with superior engine power,
leaving you down there just to become another inevitable strikethrough roundel on their fuselage
Lately, whenever I find myself hunted by a 109, I just give up, can't counter them in any way, can't climb with them, can't dive with them, and more often than once, can't turn with them, even to the point I'm blacking out, they still get their shots in or evade my shots getting in them

Try flying 109s if it's really that easy. In a spit you have a decent chance of evading a single 109 with advantage until either your buddies show up or the 109 makes a mistake and loses E. If you face more than 1, on your own, you've turned up to the wrong fight.

[No.119_Bruv]

Meh, these days the 109s are hammerheading on your tail in distances you can't follow with a Spit unless you're willing to lose more E than stall speed
If 109s were a difficult plane to fly IRL, I'm not seeing it ingame (even had a 109 turn a stall spin 500 feet above ground and recover then get on my tail and shoot me down, if I pull that stunt with a Spit or Hurry, all that is needed is a headstone with the crater I leave behind)

Half decent 109 pilots don't need to care about E, they'll turn with you until their slats give them the advantage and if they don't get you the first time, rocket 3000 feet in the air with superior engine power,
leaving you down there just to become another inevitable strikethrough roundel on their fuselage
Lately, whenever I find myself hunted by a 109, I just give up, can't counter them in any way, can't climb with them, can't dive with them, and more often than once, can't turn with them, even to the point I'm blacking out, they still get their shots in or evade my shots getting in them

Sounds like you could use a wingman or 3 Nightdare. You forgot the part where you finally do get the briefest of gun solutions and your puny 303s scratch their paintwork.

I will gladly fly with anyone who wants to practice some better teamwork on the Allied side. Chin up and don't let them bring you down!

[ATAG_Laser]

Meh, these days the 109s are hammerheading on your tail in distances you can't follow with a Spit unless you're willing to lose more E than stall speed
If 109s were a difficult plane to fly IRL, I'm not seeing it ingame (even had a 109 turn a stall spin 500 feet above ground and recover then get on my tail and shoot me down, if I pull that stunt with a Spit or Hurry, all that is needed is a headstone with the crater I leave behind)

Half decent 109 pilots don't need to care about E, they'll turn with you until their slats give them the advantage and if they don't get you the first time, rocket 3000 feet in the air with superior engine power,
leaving you down there just to become another inevitable strikethrough roundel on their fuselage
Lately, whenever I find myself hunted by a 109, I just give up, can't counter them in any way, can't climb with them, can't dive with them, and more often than once, can't turn with them, even to the point I'm blacking out, they still get their shots in or evade my shots getting in them

I feel your pain Nightdare.
.
The 109's are without doubt the apex predators in CLoD, and as a red pilot the best policy is indeed safety in numbers.

If they are higher than you, then keep away from the fight, and if you are attacked, then try and drag them towards other friendlies, or your own flak, that is your best chance of survival I have found. You can out turn them, and that's about it. other than that, a 109 will outrun you, out climb you, and out gun you.
Also it has to be said that those flying blue tend to be those flying as more organised squads, so if you are loan wolfing then you will end up getting shot down, believe me, I speak from experience

[DerDa]

Team work is everything on ATAg server. Its not a 1vs.1 dogfight server. Few pilots fly on their own. Also the blues don't do it too often anymore.
We just had the 'Crepon dogfight map'. I started at Crepon with a Hurri to play the bait, my team mates with Spit IIa at Theville.
It did not take long for two 109s to turn up, with energy advantage and eager to get this stupid Hurricane. I outturned both of them (the Hurri is really good in that), dragged them down on deck and when the Spits arrived they were with out much energy and ammo left.

Now you don't get points in the stats for this, but it was great fun!

[ATAG_Laser]

Team work is everything on ATAg server. Its not a 1vs.1 dogfight server. Few pilots fly on their own. Also the blues don't do it too often anymore.
We just had the 'Crepon dogfight map'. I started at Crepon with a Hurri to play the bait, my team mates with Spit IIa at Theville.
It did not take long for two 109s to turn up, with energy advantage and eager to get this stupid Hurricane. I outturned both of them (the Hurri is really good in that), dragged them down on deck and when the Spits arrived they were with out much energy and ammo left.

Now you don't get points in the stats for this, but it was great fun!

Sounds like you and your squad mates well and truly mugged those 109's DerDa

As you have said, the blue squads always seem to work as a team, and at the times that I am on pretty much all of the blue players are indeed members of such squads.

There doesn't seem to be many inexperienced 109 pilots on, you always seem to be flying against the best all of the time.

I have coming up to two years of combat flight sim experience, yet I am still getting hammered time and time again by the 109's. On two occasions lately I have dropped down on a single lower 109 only to find that I have fallen into a trap, kind of like being on the receiving end of what you done to those 109's DerDa. That's another lesson to learn. If you are in a spit or Hurri, do not lose valuable height going down to engage a lower enemy unless you have team mates to watch your 6. Once you are down there it will take you a long time to regain that height, yet a 109 can "boom and Zoom" at will

[ATAG_Pattle]

I fly mostly Red, but fly all fighters at any point in time. Most of my kills are in the Hurricane, not the best fighter out there, but when it hits, it hits real hard and it's deadly in a tight fight.

I can honestly say, given each aircraft has its plus's and negatives, the pilot is the difference. It is far easier to turn advantage to dis advantage in a 109 that a Spit or Hurri in my experience. Nothing is more humbling being a red pilot then jumping in a 109 and flying it like a Spit or Hurri! Totally different skill set and discipline required to be effective.

I reckon if you are in a turn, your aircraft not damaged and you have a 109 up ya clacker and not letting go, and they have guns on, push your turn harder. The best 109 pilots will stick to you as they are making all sorts of adjustments, but most will eventually have to change that tactic or drop a wing and stall. You see a 109 wings flicker for a split second and the pilot is about to stall. The good one's will never get themselves in that position in the first place. It's a a very vulnerable position for a 109. For a red pilot, engaging a tight turning 109 hellbent on smoking old mate in front of him, is an early Christmas present.

Stick with it. You will get schmoked plenty. Then gradually you will start getting the hang of it.

If you are convinced the 109 is ultimately superior jump on line and fly it. That will more likely change you mind.

Pattle

[BOO]

on a good red day I can kill pretty much 80% of the SINGLE 109s I encounter (go me)

On a good Blue day 80% of the SINGLE red aircraft I encounter kill me. If a pilot is good in a 109 its because they have developed their skills and are probably naturally skilled in any case not because the 109 is superior in every way.

A spitfire is always going to give you more options IF you put it in a position to. A player who is able to start with alt and E is always in a better position regardless of what they are flying.

Stick at it.

[9./JG52 Kettarian_Fox]

Meh, these days the 109s are hammerheading on your tail in distances you can't follow with a Spit unless you're willing to lose more E than stall speed
If 109s were a difficult plane to fly IRL, I'm not seeing it ingame (even had a 109 turn a stall spin 500 feet above ground and recover then get on my tail and shoot me down, if I pull that stunt with a Spit or Hurry, all that is needed is a headstone with the crater I leave behind)

Half decent 109 pilots don't need to care about E, they'll turn with you until their slats give them the advantage and if they don't get you the first time, rocket 3000 feet in the air with superior engine power,
leaving you down there just to become another inevitable strikethrough roundel on their fuselage
Lately, whenever I find myself hunted by a 109, I just give up, can't counter them in any way, can't climb with them, can't dive with them, and more often than once, can't turn with them, even to the point I'm blacking out, they still get their shots in or evade my shots getting in them

I will only say this - my experience in this game is 90% 109s and 10% (at best) Spitfires and Hurricanes.
Yet whenever I fly Spitfire instead of a 109 its like taking a holiday from hard work. I remember one time when I was defending against 3 109s with altitude advantage, survived and smoked one of them too. It was hard, and obviously those guys were not part of a squad or very experienced but still, were I in a 109 instead I GUARANTEE I would be dead within a minute against three Spits with E advantage. Unless I ran screaming like a little girl.

Try flying a 109 if you think it's easy. It is anything but.
And the funny thing is, if you fly a Spit exactly as you would fly a 109 to be successful, meaning BnZ instead of dumb turning in a circle - it is much easier.
Spitfire = Easyfire

[Vlerkies]

Unless I ran screaming like a little girl.

My default defensive tactic right there: edit I even lift my skirt first. trouble is I always leave it to late, because I am stubborn and dumb, then attract a pretty decent Red audience about 10m above the deck with barely enough airspeed to remain dry, and wonder why I cant get home hahahhaa

[ATAG_Dave]

And the funny thing is, if you fly a Spit exactly as you would fly a 109 to be successful, meaning BnZ instead of dumb turning in a circle - it is much easier.

This ^ basically

[ATAG_Laser]

This ^ basically

Sorry, but I cannot see how it is possible to B&Z in a spit.

Once you have "boomed" it takes at least 15 - 20 minutes to "zoom" back up to altitude. In a 109 it takes a matter of seconds

[Vlerkies]

Sorry, but I cannot see how it is possible to B&Z in a spit.

Once you have "boomed" it takes at least 15 - 20 minutes to "zoom" back up to altitude. In a 109 it takes a matter of seconds

Exaggeration much?

[ATAG_Dave]

Sorry, but I cannot see how it is possible to B&Z in a spit.

Once you have "boomed" it takes at least 15 - 20 minutes to "zoom" back up to altitude. In a 109 it takes a matter of seconds

Its perfectly possible - the tactic can be used in any plane in principle - obviously some planes excel at it more (relative to others)

Im sure all the 109 regulars would love your second sentence to be true but of course it is not

[DerDa]

One of the good things on ATAG server is, that you have to change your tatics from time to time and try to adapt.

For quite some time we used to climb with our Spits just below contrail height and started to look for 109s below us, to boom them and hopefully to zoom up again, just like Dave said. This worked quite well ... for some time.
But since several months, while trying to do this, we regularly ran into a well known and very well organised blue squad flying still higher and tearing us to pieces.

So time to think up something new.
Some of the new planes in 4.5 (and even more in 5.0) will offer very different options I think and I look forward to try them out.

[ATAG_Laser]

Exaggeration much?

Ok, fair enough, that was an exaggeration of the truth

Maybe it just seems like a 109 can regain it's height in seconds when you are sat in a spit or Hurri being attacked by one, (although I will concede that in such cases it is probably more than one)

In the same way it probably just seems like the 109 is superior when you are up against it.

In truth a good pilot will be successful in whichever aircraft he chooses to fly. He just needs to know how to get the best out of it, and that I am afraid is the difficult part.

Combat tactics are complex, and the inability to understand them is the reason why I am certainly not likely to be classed as a good pilot anytime soon

[9./JG52 gr00ve]

Maybe it just seems like a 109 can regain it's height in seconds

Its called BnZ for a reason and 109 is well suited for that job in this theatre...play it right, using brain instead of muscles and no one can touch you.
I know it must be frustrating when everything you do gets countered easily, so when you encounter intelligent player in 109, your best bet is to start running and hoping he wont follow you.

[ATAG_Colander]

I would wait for 4.5 before continuing with this discussion