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Thread: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

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    Supporting Member III./ZG76_Ezzie's Avatar
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    Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Most of us have the experience of venting an opposing aircraft which then continues to fight as it vents. Im curious to know if there are any tactics to increase the venting rate of the wouded opponent? For instance if the venting opponent is induced to fly at max engine settings will this result in him/her venting all his/her 'stuff' quicker than if he/she flies at less than max engine settings?

    Im thinking that venting rate is related to engine settings but dont know for sure. Be interested in thoughts or the good oil from those who have seen under the hood re the damage model if they are happy to discuss.

    Ezzie

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    Veteran Combat pilot Barone's Avatar
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    The problem is that a venting aircraft should disengage and try to save his life. But there are a lot of kamikaze style players

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post
    Most of us have the experience of venting an opposing aircraft which then continues to fight as it vents. Im curious to know if there are any tactics to increase the venting rate of the wouded opponent? For instance if the venting opponent is induced to fly at max engine settings will this result in him/her venting all his/her 'stuff' quicker than if he/she flies at less than max engine settings?

    Im thinking that venting rate is related to engine settings but dont know for sure. Be interested in thoughts or the good oil from those who have seen under the hood re the damage model if they are happy to discuss.

    Ezzie
    I always wondered myself if it was the case. I am not sure.
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    If I get vented and manage to disengage I will lower my throttle and prop to 50% or so and put my rads on fully...I always assumed that this made my engine last a bit longer and it certainly feels that I get a long time on those settings before my engine starts to give up...It can be fun to see if I can get back to my home base too...
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lewis View Post
    If I get vented and manage to disengage I will lower my throttle and prop to 50% or so and put my rads on fully...I always assumed that this made my engine last a bit longer and it certainly feels that I get a long time on those settings before my engine starts to give up...It can be fun to see if I can get back to my home base too...
    Yep..

    Landing with no engine is certainly worth a go... can be a seriously fun challenge in its own right.

    Like that time you talked me all the was back to Thorney Island... and I came in mere feet above the field at stall speed... then and overshot it awyway !

    Happy days !
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    For instance if the venting opponent is induced to fly at max engine settings will this result in him/her venting all his/her 'stuff' quicker than if he/she flies at less than max engine settings
    You're in combat and NOT at max engine settings already?

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    I use conservative settings throughout...so I don't have to be looking at the dash during a fight...I go max settings only in a climb during a fight...A fight will be up and down and I don't think you gain much by being at max settings in the dive so that's a good time to go back to cooling your engine...

    There's a lot to be learned by watching YouTube vids of dogfights in CLOD...You will often see the engine management window in the lower left side of the screen and be able to watch exactly what folks are doing with settings mid-fight...Dogfights can last 10 minutes or so and to be on max settings for that time WILL blow your engine...so you need to have some restraint throughout...Knowing when to max out or cool is important in the fight...
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Highseas View Post
    Yep..

    Landing with no engine is certainly worth a go... can be a seriously fun challenge in its own right.

    Like that time you talked me all the was back to Thorney Island... and I came in mere feet above the field at stall speed... then and overshot it awyway !

    Happy days !
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Wow !!

    I remember every second of that !!

    Cheers Lew !!

    Cheer Rag Tags !!
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post
    For instance if the venting opponent is induced to fly at max engine settings will this result in him/her venting all his/her 'stuff' quicker than if he/she flies at less than max engine settings?
    Excellent question - Ive always flown assuming that if vented and i back off the revs etc ill last longer and have a better chance of getting back, but its just an assumption...I also wonder if it depends on how many holes you have in your cooling system (for the purpose here Im assuming that the only damage to the plane is to the cooling system)....so if someone shoots (say) 50x .303 holes into your cooling system is the time to total failure different than if just 1x .303 hole is shot...?

    S!
    Last edited by ATAG_Dave; Jan-21-2017 at 19:06.

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dave View Post
    Excellent question - Ive always flown assuming that if vented and i back off the revs etc ill last longer and have a better chance of getting back, but its just an assumption...I also wonder if it depends on how many holes you have in your cooling system (for the purpose here Im assuming that the only damage to the plane is to the cooling system)....so if someone shoots (say) 50x .303 holes into your cooling system is the time to total failure different than if just 1x .303 hole is shot...?

    S!
    I'm curious too.

    a hole in your car radiator from a stone will kill your engine and mess up that weekend away..

    total annihilation of your radiator by 50 stones will also screw your weekend away.. probably at much the same rate as you free wheel to the next available services..

    but in a plane?

    Zero cooling.... certain seizure.

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    From my own experiments on this.
    Losing the radiator to bullet hits will make the engine die after 2mins no matter what you do with the revs.

    However bursting the rads due to overheating the engine in combat(no hits recieved) will make the engine last a LOT longer if you come back on power and revs. So at least in this case nursing the engine will make a difference. Pls try it out and report back.

    I read at least one report of a mustang pikot saying the engine would stop completely after ca 15mins if the coolant system was hit. I guess in the end it all depends on where in the coolant system the bullet has penetrated.
    Clod only has one type of damage for the coolant system when its hit. Its either damaged or not. And when it is you have 2 mins period. You can rund idle power or full power. Its one thing TFS hopes to investigate for the future FM and DM updates.

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    Supporting Member III./ZG76_Ezzie's Avatar
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfesser View Post
    You're in combat and NOT at max engine settings already?
    In the -110 i have 3 different engine settings i tend to use - continous, 30min or 5 min. What often happens is that i hit a spit on my 6 with my rear gun and will get some lucky hits on it and sometime it will then vent. I then have to decide what to do next while the spit vents out. And often the spits will not disengage once vented and my goal is to minimise the time the angry spit has left to kill me. And usually im flying at the continous setting by now having flown at the 30 min setting until the spit eventually caught up to me.

    So i have some options - i could fly at 5 min settings to decrease the spit's rate of closure but do i climb or dive? climbing might make the Spit use higher engine settings (ie work harder) and maybe vent at a higher rate than if i dive and the spit can catch up without working as hard.

    But i think from Kling's reply it seems its 2 min regardless if i have vented the spit. So in my case i just need to figure out how to stay out of the spit's guns / ramming for 2 minutes and then hopefully the engine 'ist kaput'.

    Ezzie

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kling View Post
    From my own experiments on this.
    Losing the radiator to bullet hits will make the engine die after 2mins no matter what you do with the revs.

    However bursting the rads due to overheating the engine in combat(no hits recieved) will make the engine last a LOT longer if you come back on power and revs. So at least in this case nursing the engine will make a difference. Pls try it out and report back.

    I read at least one report of a mustang pikot saying the engine would stop completely after ca 15mins if the coolant system was hit. I guess in the end it all depends on where in the coolant system the bullet has penetrated.
    Clod only has one type of damage for the coolant system when its hit. Its either damaged or not. And when it is you have 2 mins period. You can rund idle power or full power. Its one thing TFS hopes to investigate for the future FM and DM updates.

    Thanks Kling - very useful to know.

    Ezzie

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Very good to know. Cheers.
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Pls test online or offline and confirm my statement! It has been a few years since I tested it.

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Ezzie View Post

    But i think from Kling's reply it seems its 2 min regardless if i have vented the spit. So in my case i just need to figure out how to stay out of the spit's guns / ramming for 2 minutes and then hopefully the engine 'ist kaput'.

    Ezzie
    I think it's 20 not 2 minutes looking at what happens in the game...pretty much it works in this way:

    Hit in the Bf 110 engines ( one bullet is enough ): engines stop working almost immediately and aircraft always pointing down as if it weights like an Egyptian pyramid

    Spit-Hurry with damaged engines ( especially if only radiators has been damaged ): Narvik - French point - Isle of Wight - Coffee in Paris - way back to home base and capable of going in levelled flight more faster than an undamaged Bf 110

    A little bit better if you let them losing oil ( here the about 2 minutes rule seems to work...sometimes )


    ...but the damage model is ok...they say.... permit me to say that I have really big doubts about it...( at least speaking of damage balance between fighters against heavy-fighters\medium bomber )


    Sorry to say that, but actually, there is not any kind of balance between heavy-fighters\bombers and fighters sustainable damage ( of both sides...because also a Bf 109 flies for ages in respect to the Bf 110\medium bombers ) and that's why, mainly, most of fighter pilots remain at your six regardless of the shoots taken.

    The most fast solution actually? Kill, if you can, the pilot with the rear gunner otherwise he will continue to fly around you for ages....and often enough to shoot you down also if he is piloting a " flying colander " crippled with bullets.


    I really hope that this will be one of the major fixes that TF will that care of in the next patches. ( with some other " odd " behaviours\features of the Bf 110 )
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stab I./JG 51 - Mölders View Post
    I think it's 20 not 2 minutes looking at what happens in the game...pretty much it works in this way:

    Hit in the Bf 110 engines ( one bullet is enough ): engines stop working almost immediately and aircraft always pointing down as if it weights like an Egyptian pyramid

    Spit-Hurry with damaged engines ( especially if only radiators has been damaged ): Narvik - French point - Isle of Wight - Coffee in Paris - way back to home base and capable of going in levelled flight more faster than an undamaged Bf 110

    A little bit better if you let them losing oil ( here the about 2 minutes rule seems to work...sometimes )


    ...but the damage model is ok...they say.... permit me to say that I have really big doubts about it...( at least speaking of damage balance between fighters against heavy-fighters\medium bomber )


    Sorry to say that, but actually, there is not any kind of balance between heavy-fighters\bombers and fighters sustainable damage ( of both sides...because also a Bf 109 flies for ages in respect to the Bf 110\medium bombers ) and that's why, mainly, most of fighter pilots remain at your six regardless of the shoots taken.

    The most fast solution actually? Kill, if you can, the pilot with the rear gunner otherwise he will continue to fly around you for ages....and often enough to shoot you down also if he is piloting a " flying colander " crippled with bullets.


    I really hope that this will be one of the major fixes that TF will that care of in the next patches. ( with some other " odd " behaviours\features of the Bf 110 )
    Put up a track of your engine getting hit (resulting in a radiator leak only) and time it from there onwards. Put the video here so we can watch it. Otherwise its only based on feelings.

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kling View Post
    Put up a track of your engine getting hit (resulting in a radiator leak only) and time it from there onwards. Put the video here so we can watch it. Otherwise its only based on feelings.
    Will do so certainly soon as possible. ( in addition there are also some other ways to provide clear data about this argument ).
    Somehow the things reported above are not only based on feelings but also on tracking precisely both aircraft positions after the dogfight.

    As said ( and I agree with you completely ) solid data must be presented to result credible. ( and so to be able to present incontrovertible evidence )


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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    It's not exactly 2 minutes... it depends on the reservoir of coolant fluid in the plane in question.

    All the water cooled engines in the game have different reservoir sizes. A Hurricane had a large reservoir of coolant than a 109 for example.

    But the rate at which the coolant leaks? Yes, it is a set amount... this is something we want to fix... hopefully for TF 5.0 but no guarantee.

    We would like to change it to reflect the size of the round which hit, and also the number of rounds.

    And yes, as Kling mentions, the loss of radiator fluid is not what kills your engine, its the heat generated by the engine.

    So if you run the engine at low power settings after the fluid has been hit, so as little heat as possible is generated, the engine will last longer before seizing.

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Thanks Buzz - good to know as well.

    Ezzie

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Still noone bothered to put up a video of the results..

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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Here you can find the .trk file ( already processed with the track editor to enable external views ) to provide you some solid proofs, as you requested, of what I mean. ( My aircraft Bf 110 C-4/N, combats happened around Dover area so move forward to it if you do not want to watch the full video )
    I have upload it both on MEGA and MediaFire ( see links\instructions below ) and the file is ready to be run in the in-game track viewer. ( Menu " Extras " )

    MEGA: https://mega.nz/#!O1IinALB

    Decryption key: !TNuuFGoZKHSCjdvq9NMVrBzIpOSzrNcereip0xrHaJQ

    MediaFire: https://www.mediafire.com/?1pr3faaoxufa3lo



    Based on what you can notice in the video track plus my combat experience ( about 4584 hours of virtual flight in IL2 Cliffs of Dover at the moment I'm writing this post ) it seems to me to have noticed the following:

    A - If you provoke an oil leak to an engine ( both LW and RAF fighters ) the plane's engine will last for about 2-3 minutes in average ( depending on the situation ).
    Speaking, in particular, about the Bf 110 against RAF fighters ( about this argument ) the situation is not so bad because if you are able to provoke them an oil leak at least, if you can force them to fly for 2-3 minutes without taking damages to your plane, their engine completely quits and stop working.

    Difference noted: In the Bf 110 in 99% of the cases soon as you get an oil leak the engine almost immediately stops working ( as you can see clearly in the video track ).

    Speaking of " game times " this difference of 2-3 minutes in the RAF engine stop working in respect to the Bf 110 one ( immediately stop working ) corresponds pretty much to aeons intended as time units.

    Possible causes: or the Bf 110 engine\s stop working too fast once it suffer an oil leak or the RAF fighter engines last for too long once they suffer an oil leak ( My opinion: The Bf 110 stops working too fast and so of consequence the situation is not balanced in respect to when happens the same to a RAF fighter engine )

    B - As you can see in the video track my right engine was not damaged at all nor hit anytime. Soon as the left one stopped working the right one stops working too immediately.
    This do not happens all the times ( undamaged engine stop working if the other one is not working anymore ) but it seems to happen with a certain " sustained " frequency.

    Possible causes: I do not know if this happens due to the Bf 110 oil\cooling system or if it is a bug of the aircraft. Probably some investigations about it by TFS should be not bad to solve or to eventually clarify why this seems to happen.

    C - This point, in my opinion, is the one where the differences in the damage system are more clear and so of consequence the worst ones for a Bf 110 pilot...or rather the HUGE difference that there seems to be in how the Bf 110\RAF fighters engines react after have suffered a water radiator leak.
    Again, when you get a similar damage in the Bf 110, its engine seems to stop almost immediately once instead, as you can very clearly notice in the video track, if a RAF fighter suffers the same kind of damage is capable of flying for ages as if nothing as happened.
    In the video track you can, in fact, noticing for how long they were able to fly " as per normal " until they were able, at the end, to provoke damages to my plane too.
    I can assure you that the Bf 110 engines will not last for so long when you get a similar damage, NEVER.
    In addition, as you can well notice in the video track, soon as you get any kind of damage to your Bf 110 ( oil leak, water leak, bullet holes, etc ) the aircraft immediately points the nose down and in the fortunate case that you are able to get a levelled flight after have sustained the damage ( and that the engine stops working ) you get an approximated maximum speed of about 200 Km\h ( IAS ) while instead RAF fighters are able to fly, climb and continuing making maneuvers as per normal ( please note in the video track what kind of climbs\dives he was able to perform with the engine already damaged by some minutes! ).
    I can assure you that in the Bf 110 if you get a similar damage you can forget about making climbs and dives in that way and for such a long time!
    The RAF planes in addition to the more extended time for which they can fly in respect to the Bf 110 ( and tendency of the nose to go down ) seems to keep a sort of strong " positive buoyancy " ( I know it's not the correct term, I used it just to give the idea of what I mean ) after have sustained damages to the water radiator permitting them to perform that maneuvers.

    My opinion: or the Bf 110 engine\s stop working too fast once it suffer a water radiator leak or the RAF fighter engines last for too long once they suffer a water radiator leak ( My personal opinion: The Bf 110 engine stops working in a realistic way, it's the RAF fighter engines that last for too long times once suffering this kind of damage )

    The only occasions in which, so far, I've noticed that the Bf 110 engine last for quite a long time is when you self-inflict engine damages due to overrevving ( RPMs too high or too high for a too long time ) and you have not suffered any kind of damage by the enemy

    D - The rear machine gun bullets of the Bf 110 seems to provoke a too low damage to the RAF fighters fuselage\parts when an hit occurs, also if you hit them a lot of times ( In the video track my rear machine gun belt composition was: 1 x S.m.K. L’spur (gelb) - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, Leuchtspur, 1 x S.m.K.H. - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, Hart, 1 x P.m.K. - Phosphor mit Stahlkern ).
    You can notice it very well both in the video track or if you do some tests using the rear machine gun belt composition set with only 1 x S.m.K. L’spur (gelb) - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern...they seems to have pretty much, against the RAF fighters, an effect similar to paper balls made with the spit fired with a blowgun...

    E - Said in general the RAF fighters seems to have a very strong " armour value " ( again, I know it's not the correct term, I used it just to give the idea of what I mean ) in respect to the Bf 110 late variants were instead the armour plates of the aircraft, in particular around the canopy area, seems to be highly insufficient or completely missing ( for example like the frontal armoured bulletproof glass missing from all the Bf 110 later variants or like the additional armour plates around the crew area clearly not sufficient in the actual available late Bf 110 variants or like no chance at all to fire with the rear canopy closed using so the protection of the rear armoured bulletproof glass to protect the rear machine gunner ).
    The armour plates on the later Bf 110 variants were added exactly to render the crew " virtually " impossible to be killed by an RAF early variant due to the very well know low penetration capabilities of the 303 caliber.
    You can do a cross-check to have " solid proofs " of this , in the case that you are not a bullet penetration expert about the 303 caliber against the armour plates of the Bf 110 late variants, checking one of the lots of videos available on YouTube about this argument or cross-checking the number of rear gunner deaths sustained by Bf 110 crews during the Battle of Britain period ( Most of the crew members of the Bf 110s in the period of interest were killed after crash landing, parachute failed to open, etc ) and a rear gunner ( or a pilot ) killed by a direct 303 hit were very rare occasions while in the game the pilot seems to suffer most of his kills due to the fact that the bullets enter and bounce all around inside canopy ( entering from the rear canopy open and very rarely by a direct hit ) and instead the rear gunner continuously dies as if he is firing staying sit in his underwear directly on the tail of the Bf 110.
    In addition, once wounded, the Bf 110 pilot and rear gunner seems to manage the blood bleeding in two different ways: lots of times, in fact, they have a similar blood bleeding ( both dark red screen ) but the pilots survives the rear gunner after some minutes instead dies all of a sudden ( but he is so dedicated to the Luftwaffe cause that he always reload the rear machine gun, also when already running in the Valhalla or the Elysian fields )



    As you can easily understand this is only a single video ( I can not realise thousand of them ) but I can assure you that this what is happening almost every single time that you decide to fight against a RAF fighter so I hope that the points raised above should be not marked ( again! ) as an " anecdote " or as a " personal opinion ".
    You asked the solid proofs, now you have them!

    As always I'm fully available to collaborate, exchange opinions and material about this argument if you think it's the case!


    Hoping that the material provided above could be of help for TFS Team to better balance the damage model\system between LW heavy fighters and the RAF fighters ( that actually seems to be a little bit " offset " ) and having full trust and a great confidence that the TFS Team will succeed in all its tasks and projects, I pose you my best personal regards!


    Keep up the excellent work!
    Last edited by Stab I./JG 51 - Mölders; Feb-19-2017 at 12:19.

    Visit us at http://stabi.jg51.forumfree.it ( or left-click on the signature above )
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  31. #24
    Team Fusion Kling's Avatar
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stab I./JG 51 - Mölders View Post
    Here you can find the .trk file ( already processed with the track editor to enable external views ) to provide you some solid proofs, as you requested, of what I mean. ( My aircraft Bf 110 C-4/N, combats happened around Dover area so move forward to it if you do not want to watch the full video )
    I have upload it both on MEGA and MediaFire ( see links\instructions below ) and the file is ready to be run in the in-game track viewer. ( Menu " Extras " )

    MEGA: https://mega.nz/#!O1IinALB

    Decryption key: !TNuuFGoZKHSCjdvq9NMVrBzIpOSzrNcereip0xrHaJQ

    MediaFire: https://www.mediafire.com/?1pr3faaoxufa3lo



    Based on what you can notice in the video track plus my combat experience ( about 4584 hours of virtual flight in IL2 Cliffs of Dover at the moment I'm writing this post ) it seems to me to have noticed the following:

    A - If you provoke an oil leak to an engine ( both LW and RAF fighters ) the plane's engine will last for about 2-3 minutes in average ( depending on the situation ).
    Speaking, in particular, about the Bf 110 against RAF fighters ( about this argument ) the situation is not so bad because if you are able to provoke them an oil leak at least, if you can force them to fly for 2-3 minutes without taking damages to your plane, their engine completely quits and stop working.

    Difference noted: In the Bf 110 in 99% of the cases soon as you get an oil leak the engine almost immediately stops working ( as you can see clearly in the video track ).

    Speaking of " game times " this difference of 2-3 minutes in the RAF engine stop working in respect to the Bf 110 one ( immediately stop working ) corresponds pretty much to aeons intended as time units.

    Possible causes: or the Bf 110 engine\s stop working too fast once it suffer an oil leak or the RAF fighter engines last for too long once they suffer an oil leak ( My opinion: The Bf 110 stops working too fast and so of consequence the situation is not balanced in respect to when happens the same to a RAF fighter engine )

    B - As you can see in the video track my right engine was not damaged at all nor hit anytime. Soon as the left one stopped working the right one stops working too immediately.
    This do not happens all the times ( undamaged engine stop working if the other one is not working anymore ) but it seems to happen with a certain " sustained " frequency.

    Possible causes: I do not know if this happens due to the Bf 110 oil\cooling system or if it is a bug of the aircraft. Probably some investigations about it by TFS should be not bad to solve or to eventually clarify why this seems to happen.

    C - This point, in my opinion, is the one where the differences in the damage system are more clear and so of consequence the worst ones for a Bf 110 pilot...or rather the HUGE difference that there seems to be in how the Bf 110\RAF fighters engines react after have suffered a water radiator leak.
    Again, when you get a similar damage in the Bf 110, its engine seems to stop almost immediately once instead, as you can very clearly notice in the video track, if a RAF fighter suffers the same kind of damage is capable of flying for ages as if nothing as happened.
    In the video track you can, in fact, noticing for how long they were able to fly " as per normal " until they were able, at the end, to provoke damages to my plane too.
    I can assure you that the Bf 110 engines will not last for so long when you get a similar damage, NEVER.
    In addition, as you can well notice in the video track, soon as you get any kind of damage to your Bf 110 ( oil leak, water leak, bullet holes, etc ) the aircraft immediately points the nose down and in the fortunate case that you are able to get a levelled flight after have sustained the damage ( and that the engine stops working ) you get an approximated maximum speed of about 200 Km\h ( IAS ) while instead RAF fighters are able to fly, climb and continuing making maneuvers as per normal ( please note in the video track what kind of climbs\dives he was able to perform with the engine already damaged by some minutes! ).
    I can assure you that in the Bf 110 if you get a similar damage you can forget about making climbs and dives in that way and for such a long time!
    The RAF planes in addition to the more extended time for which they can fly in respect to the Bf 110 ( and tendency of the nose to go down ) seems to keep a sort of strong " positive buoyancy " ( I know it's not the correct term, I used it just to give the idea of what I mean ) after have sustained damages to the water radiator permitting them to perform that maneuvers.

    My opinion: or the Bf 110 engine\s stop working too fast once it suffer a water radiator leak or the RAF fighter engines last for too long once they suffer a water radiator leak ( My personal opinion: The Bf 110 engine stops working in a realistic way, it's the RAF fighter engines that last for too long times once suffering this kind of damage )

    The only occasions in which, so far, I've noticed that the Bf 110 engine last for quite a long time is when you self-inflict engine damages due to overrevving ( RPMs too high or too high for a too long time ) and you have not suffered any kind of damage by the enemy

    D - The rear machine gun bullets of the Bf 110 seems to provoke a too low damage to the RAF fighters fuselage\parts when an hit occurs, also if you hit them a lot of times ( In the video track my rear machine gun belt composition was: 1 x S.m.K. L’spur (gelb) - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, Leuchtspur, 1 x S.m.K.H. - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, Hart, 1 x P.m.K. - Phosphor mit Stahlkern ).
    You can notice it very well both in the video track or if you do some tests using the rear machine gun belt composition set with only 1 x S.m.K. L’spur (gelb) - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern...they seems to have pretty much, against the RAF fighters, an effect similar to paper balls made with the spit fired with a blowgun...

    E - Said in general the RAF fighters seems to have a very strong " armour value " ( again, I know it's not the correct term, I used it just to give the idea of what I mean ) in respect to the Bf 110 late variants were instead the armour plates of the aircraft, in particular around the canopy area, seems to be highly insufficient or completely missing ( for example like the frontal armoured bulletproof glass missing from all the Bf 110 later variants or like the additional armour plates around the crew area clearly not sufficient in the actual available late Bf 110 variants or like no chance at all to fire with the rear canopy closed using so the protection of the rear armoured bulletproof glass to protect the rear machine gunner ).
    The armour plates on the later Bf 110 variants were added exactly to render the crew " virtually " impossible to be killed by an RAF early variant due to the very well know low penetration capabilities of the 303 caliber.
    You can do a cross-check to have " solid proofs " of this , in the case that you are not a bullet penetration expert about the 303 caliber against the armour plates of the Bf 110 late variants, checking one of the lots of videos available on YouTube about this argument or cross-checking the number of rear gunner deaths sustained by Bf 110 crews during the Battle of Britain period ( Most of the crew members of the Bf 110s in the period of interest were killed after crash landing, parachute failed to open, etc ) and a rear gunner ( or a pilot ) killed by a direct 303 hit were very rare occasions while in the game the pilot seems to suffer most of his kills due to the fact that the bullets enter and bounce all around inside canopy ( entering from the rear canopy open and very rarely by a direct hit ) and instead the rear gunner continuously dies as if he is firing staying sit in his underwear directly on the tail of the Bf 110.
    In addition, once wounded, the Bf 110 pilot and rear gunner seems to manage the blood bleeding in two different ways: lots of times, in fact, they have a similar blood bleeding ( both dark red screen ) but the pilots survives the rear gunner after some minutes instead dies all of a sudden ( but he is so dedicated to the Luftwaffe cause that he always reload the rear machine gun, also when already running in the Valhalla or the Elysian fields )



    As you can easily understand this is only a single video ( I can not realise thousand of them ) but I can assure you that this what is happening almost every single time that you decide to fight against a RAF fighter so I hope that the points raised above should be not marked ( again! ) as an " anecdote " or as a " personal opinion ".
    You asked the solid proofs, now you have them!

    As always I'm fully available to collaborate, exchange opinions and material about this argument if you think it's the case!


    Hoping that the material provided above could be of help for TFS Team to better balance the damage model\system between LW heavy fighters and the RAF fighters ( that actually seems to be a little bit " offset " ) and having full trust and a great confidence that the TFS Team will succeed in all its tasks and projects, I pose you my best personal regards!


    Keep up the excellent work!

    Got your PM Mölders!

    before I hage looked at it I just want to add that there are different types of oil damage built in system.
    99 times of 100 (I fly the Spit mostly) once my oil system is hit, the engine is dead within va 20 seconds.

    There is one type of oildamag, I think the term is "oil container damaged" or something like that which simulates that all oil is gone and the engine dies after 20 sec. Then there are others(not sure of their exact term) where you get oil on the windscreen but the engine keeps going sometimes for severall minutes. What is important to not is that externally they look exactly the same I.e trailing oil. I have that sometimes and am always surprised that the engine keeps going as it happens once in 100(at least that's the feeling)

    I am not in the DM department so I can't tell what is going on to be honest.
    Fact is that there are many stories of people having the oil system damaged but still flying for a long time with a slowly overheating engine. Pierre Closterman mentioned that in his book. He managed to cross the channel while leaking oil and landed at a coastal base in England with a glowing hot engine.

    The other question is, how long can an ww2 aeroplane engine run if the oil container is shot away completely? Lest play with hypothetical scenario that we from one second to another remove the oil container. How long would it take for the engine to stop? This is an honest question. I would guess that there is still oil in the pipes and system? How long before the cylinders go too hot and the engine stops? What is realistic? I think the current 20secs are too short for this type of damage but that is only based on a feeling. Anyone? I once brought it up and was told to shut up and that I know nothing about this.

    Radiator damage is different IRL, as it depends on the size of the leak. Currently Clod is only modeled with one type so size so the time is almost always the same. I once read a real life ww2 p51 pilot saying that it would take ca 15 mins before the engine goes too hot. But it all depends on the size of the leak.

    anyway, I will check your video out!

    Cheers

  32. Likes Stab I./JG 51 - Mölders liked this post
  33. #25
    Veteran Combat pilot klu.peete's Avatar
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lewis View Post
    If I get vented and manage to disengage I will lower my throttle and prop to 50% or so and put my rads on fully...I always assumed that this made my engine last a bit longer and it certainly feels that I get a long time on those settings before my engine starts to give up...It can be fun to see if I can get back to my home base too...
    Spits can fly way more longer then the 109.... Alwais... Lewis..!

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  34. #26
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Venting?!!!!! All I know is: my rate of venting goes through the roof...the moment Brennus gets behind me with that 110 of his! LOL!

  35. #27
    Supporting Member Kendy for the State's Avatar
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    Huh? My Hurricane or Spitfire give up the ghost within 2 minutes of venting...Oil all over the windscreen, coughing, sputtering (forget the aircraft, that's just from me), while 109s stay in the fight for 10 minutes or more, then fly back across the channel and land safely, venting steam the whole way. (This also seems to happen after I set a 109 on fire, 5 minutes later I'll look behind me and find I'm being shot down by that flaming 109 I thought was out of the fight).

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  36. #28
    Combat pilot Broodwich's Avatar
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?

    obviously, this is all based on feelings (sans buzz and kling )

    No oil = very quickly seized engine. How fast it drains would determine how quickly it seizes, similar to coolant. Also likely similar is how it is a set rate, as i've seen anything with their oil shot out last less than a minute.

    Clostermann had a slow leak, which is obviously not modeled in the game. Most old cars have slow leaks too, but they only seize up once they run out! (disclaimer: do not try this with your daily commuter)
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  37. #29
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    Re: Venting aircraft - is the rate variable?




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