Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Map rotation randomness?

  1. #1
    Manual Creation Group ATAG_Ezzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    2,301
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    115.2 KB

    Map rotation randomness?

    Noticed yesterday that K-kamp came on several times (separated by one other mission) and then when i woke up this morning it was on again. This isnt a moan about the mission - i dont mind it - but just wondering if the randomness script is maybe in need for a reboot?

    I cant remember all my uni stats lectures - in fact i think i dkipped those classes mostly - but realise its possible to have a cluster of events that dont look random but are still random. So maybe this is what is happening. But thought i would mention it just in case.

    Ezzie

  2. Likes ATAG_Lewis liked this post
  3. #2
    Public Relations ATAG_Lewis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sheffield UK
    Posts
    7,253
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    506.15 MB

    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    Yep...randomness is not real randomness...I can't be...as true randomness would occasionally see the same map picked 3 or 4 times in succession...so there has to be a clause in the random cycle that it doesn't play the same map twice in a row...Just a heads up incase you thought that making a script for random map rotation was a walk in the park...

    Anyways...The clever folk who work their magic on this stuff will I am sure give it a kick and acknowledge your concerns...

    Good call Ez...~S~
    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.'' - Bertrand Russell
    1.618 - You know this number?
    My Turing machine :CPU: Intel Core i7 2700K 3.50GHz Sandybridge, Motherboard: Asus Maximus IV Extreme -Z Intel Z68 (Socket 1155) PCI-Express DDR3,
    RAM: 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 Dual Channel Kit, Graphics Card: Nvidia GeForce GTX 970 4096MB GDDR5, OS:Windows 10
    Joystick: Microsoft Sidewinder II ForceFeedback Joystick, Throttle: CH Products Pro Throttle
    ATAG_Lewis Youtube Channel

  4. Likes PanTast, ATAG_Pattle, ATAG_Ribbs, Baffin liked this post
  5. #3
    Supporting Member Baffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Northwestern Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,980
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    127.26 MB

    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    Random number generators are as good as we can approximate. Sometimes I get so sick of the maps I don't like, I lay off playing them for awhile... Isn't that the way life is? You cannot expect a good hand with every deal of the cards.
    Windows 11 Pro, ASUS ROG Maximus Z790 Dark Hero, 2 TB Samsung M.2 SSD 990PRO. Intel Core i9 14900KF using TPUII BIOS feature. Air Cooling with Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 SE CPU Cooler w/ 2 fans. Crucial 96GB DDR 5 RAM at 5600 MT/s. LG 55" 4K OLEDC7P TV, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 Gaming X Trio 24G. Realtek High Definition Audio, Sony Surround amp w/ optical cable for 5.1 speakers, Ear Buds from Motherboard for Discord/TeamSpeak3. TrackIR5, Buttkicker Gamer 2, Thrustmaster Warthog, 2x Saitek X-52 (Buttons & Gear), Gear-Falcon Trim Box, Thrustmaster TPR Pendular Rudder Pedals. Voice Activated Controls.

  6. #4
    Novice Pilot Moach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    42
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    it really must be truly random seeing how the apparent results are anything but


    this is a paradoxical phenomena I've noticed as a game programmer while working with "random" elements on various projects - random really isn't, and appears very much biased


    what a map rotation system should have, in order for the results to feel effectively "random" to users, is not really a chance-pick logic, but a shuffle algorithm instead

    that means instead of picking the next from any of the available maps, it'd just pick the next in line from a pre-shuffled list, then once the list is done, it is shuffled again

    that is known as a uniquely-random generator, and is what music players use when you select to play in "shuffle mode" - this method ensures any entry is present only once for every number of elements on the list, and goes a long way into providing a proper sense of randomness

    a fully random system, such as we have in ATAG, has instead no problem whatsoever with picking the same map twice in a row, or in very quick succession - and that leads to the feeling that it's biased towards some group or individual map in the lineup - but that's really just that: an impression

    mathematically, the odds of this sense of grouping appearing in a truly random sorting are larger than not, unless you have a VERY long list - which is why I have more than once found myself programming "derandomizers" for use in a game I was working on - those were systems designed to make random seem a bit more "fair", as far as gameplay is concerned, and often did so by actually introducing a "bias"


    so, if possible to actually implement this, here's how to accomplish map sorting that feels properly random:


    1 - start with a list of all maps in no particular order
    2 - randomly shuffle the ordering of the list
    3 - set selection marker to the start of the list (zero)
    4 - select map on marked position
    5 - increase selection marker by 1
    6 - if marker is past the end of the list, go back to step 2; else, go back to step 4


    this is a little more complex than the current algorithm, which is a single step: "pick any at random from the list"

    as you can see, the simpler method is very prone to repetition, and just as likely to ignoring one or more maps for a time - but this is really to be expected, as per the nature of truly random things
    Last edited by Moach; May-15-2017 at 11:35.
    Rule of thumb: Every '109 has a wingman...

  7. #5
    Supporting Member PreyStalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Mountains of Bulgaria, beaches of Spain and Italy, UK when I have to
    Posts
    202
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    246.12 MB

    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moach View Post
    it really must be truly random seeing how the apparent results are anything but


    this is a paradoxical phenomena I've noticed as a game programmer while working with "random" elements on various projects - random really isn't, and appears very much biased


    what a map rotation system should have, in order for the results to feel effectively "random" to users, is not really a chance-pick logic, but a shuffle algorithm instead

    that means instead of picking the next from any of the available maps, it'd just pick the next in line from a pre-shuffled list, then once the list is done, it is shuffled again

    that is known as a uniquely-random generator, and is what music players use when you select to play in "shuffle mode" - this method ensures any entry is present only once for every number of elements on the list, and goes a long way into providing a proper sense of randomness

    a fully random system, such as we have in ATAG, has instead no problem whatsoever with picking the same map twice in a row, or in very quick succession - and that leads to the feeling that it's biased towards some group or individual map in the lineup - but that's really just that: an impression

    mathematically, the odds of this sense of grouping appearing in a truly random sorting are larger than not, unless you have a VERY long list - which is why I have more than once found myself programming "derandomizers" for use in a game I was working on - those were systems designed to make random seem a bit more "fair", as far as gameplay is concerned, and often did so by actually introducing a "bias"


    so, if possible to actually implement this, here's how to accomplish map sorting that feels properly random:


    1 - start with a list of all maps in no particular order
    2 - randomly shuffle the ordering of the list
    3 - set selection marker to the start of the list (zero)
    4 - select map on marked position
    5 - increase selection marker by 1
    6 - if marker is past the end of the list, go back to step 2; else, go back to step 4


    this is a little more complex than the current algorithm, which is a single step: "pick any at random from the list"

    as you can see, the simpler method is very prone to repetition, and just as likely to ignoring one or more maps for a time - but this is really to be expected, as per the nature of truly random things
    I had to read this post through a few times before I fully got it, but it sounds like an excellent solution to me.

    Have you contacted PanTast to see if it can be implemented on the ATAG server ?

    Be gentle with him, he's heard a lot of moaning about the mission selection, but you've actually suggested a solution that's worth considering in my humble opinion.

    Nice suggestion

    My not so expensive COD rig:
    Windows 7 64 bit
    ASRock b75m r2 motherboard - new
    Intel Core i5 3570 @ 3.4ghz - used
    MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4GB - used
    8gb Crucial Ballistix Sport 1600 ram - new
    Samsung 250gb 850 EVO ssd - new
    EVGA 500 B power supply - new
    Thrustmaster T16000m stick - new
    EDTracker - used / DELAN CLIP PS3 CAMERA - new
    CH Gameport Pro Pedals - used

  8. #6
    Supporting Member PanTast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,795
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    116.50 MB

    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    No chance guys.
    And if you want something other than what we have you need to ask Colander. So this means still no chance.

    o7
    John Lydgate: “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

  9. Likes MezzA liked this post
  10. #7
    ATAG Member ATAG_Highseas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Peurto del Slade, UK
    Posts
    6,445
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    571.41 MB

    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    I really feel for the poor ATATG Server

    I've been told I'm pretty random.

    And people tire of me really quickly too. It's terribly painfiul.

    (not really though)

    - ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO - i9-13900k - ASUS ROG STRIX RTX 4090 OC - 32GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR5 5600MHz -
    - CORSAIR 1200w HX Series PSU - Corsair H100x Hydro Series CPU Cooler -
    - Big Screen Beyond -

    - Virpil T50 Mongoos Flight Stick -
    - TM Warthog Throttle -
    - Slaw Device 109 Cam Rudder Pedals -

    Highseas Peripherals
    - Engine Switch Panel - Munitions Switch Panel - Throttle Quadrant Trim Box - Helicopter Collective - Analogue Brake Lever -


    Operated by a 1972 Standard Issue Talking Monkey

  11. Likes PanTast, ATAG_Pattle, MezzA liked this post
  12. #8
    Supporting Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    swimming in the channel
    Posts
    68
    Post Thanks / Like
    Total Downloaded
    88.53 MB

    Re: Map rotation randomness?

    random numbers think i picked 6, pretty interesting stuff on these videos.

  13. Likes PanTast liked this post

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •