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Thread: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

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    Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Before I begin, allow me to point out I am in no way a programmer; this proposal is something that sounds like it should be a simple modification of an existing in game value, but that is with zero actual knowledge. That said:

    I have been thinking for a long time that our sixward view in CLOD is extremely ahistorical. I just could not reconcile all the accounts of pilots weaving all over the sky, needing wingmen, coming back with neck cramps, and generally be killed unawares from the rear, with our ability to effectively clear your six to 180 degrees effortlessly. We have plenty of pilots who can effectively fly in reverse. So I decided to check how realistic the current FOVs are in CLOD. The answer is that our pilots are super human in their ability to look rearward as I'll demonstrate momentarily. I believe that by limiting the range of motion available to the view - and the game already naturally stops you around the 180 degree mark - you could more accurately simulate what a pilot could actually see.

    The Issue

    There are a couple key numbers to hihglight before we go into lots of pretty pictures:

    1. The angle a human neck can turn to one side: Variable on source, but the highest claim it around 80 degrees.

    2. Human field of vision: You get about 60 degrees of focusable vision (30 degrees each side of a center point,), and another 30 degrees on each side of binocular peripheral. You also get some monocular peripheral for 15 degrees - aka "what was that movement?' - and the ability to "rotate your eyes" for about 15 more degrees, albeit only temporarily and losing a lot of field depth. Try looking out the back of your car while driving and you get the idea on how those last two work. You definitely aren't focusing on any car that is more than 100m away from you.

    3. The angle you can rotate your center line without moving your body forward: 5-10 degrees, usually towards the lower end in men.

    What that means...with pictures!

    Now, those numbers are important because added together they provide the following criteria for realistic observation capability (which granted, would be straining your neck and core to do indefinitely, but our virtual pilots are all ripped) that you be able to shift your view point, to include moving your eyes, only 100-105 degrees left or right from where the center of your body is. (Neck 80, torso 5, eye roll 15). How does that compare to CLOD?

    This, a typical CLOD "self six" is according to my track IR, a whopping 174 degrees rotation of my point of view to the left without any "center of body" movement.

    CLOD UnMOD 174.jpg

    This is the 105 degrees that you are actually capable of rotating your body and eyes before you start leaning forward and out.

    CLOD Porop 105.jpg
    Last edited by GloriousRuse; Mar-16-2017 at 19:19.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Now, let's demonstrate what CLOD lets you do in 1G level flight versus what you can actually do while leaning forward and out.

    This is a 180 degree rotation of the center of view to the left, combined with essentially flipping around your body by displacing the seated position onto the control stick and then leaning right until your head hits the glass.

    Full body displace left view.jpg

    This is what happens with a 105 degree leftward rotation, displacing your body 45 degrees forward left. The pilot's shoulders are off the seat; this is the furthest optimal you can move your body and turn rearward with your legs facing forward...any further forward and you lose ability to look over your shoulder as effectively, any further left and your abs stop the forward movement. You do this naturally when you are backing your car up in really close quarters. It is about the maximum you check your own six under optimal conditions.

    MaxCehckSix.jpg

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    And finally, we have the "high G" variant, where the pilot is actually pushed back into the seat...

    What CLOD allows:

    Clod High G.jpg

    What you get in reality with only head turning from a pushed back position:

    Real high g.png

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Now hopefully all those shiny pictures have demonstrated a very real human modelling error in the original source. One that I believe probably impacts air to air combat a lot more than whether or not a Minen round was really that effective, or if the FMs are 99% correct versus 99.9% correct. We cavort about our virtual battlefield with an inhuman ability to observe our six during cruise well beyond that of any pilot ever made, and just as importantly, we can maintain that stare long, stress free, and uninterrupted even as we are various break turning, rolling, and diving to our hearts content. The number of pilot guides that have some version of "yeah, you learn to fly backwards" or "keep up your alertness and you won't get bounced" or "keep your eyes on him as you <INSERT ACM HERE> and watch precisely for the moment he does <X> behind you" speak to this supernatural advantage. There is a reason most fighter kills in real life generally consisted of blowing somebody's brains out un noticed.

    There is also a reason bubble canopies were game changers - imagine if in each of the "real" screenshots there wasn't the rest of the cockpit in the way! You would suddenly have a huge field of view bonus for those 105 degrees you can actually rotate! They're hardly worth mentioning in the CLOD model where any spit or 109 (even more egregious given the bucket seat modeling) can stare 180 degrees out his own tail pipe essentially.

    My humble request to TF would be to see if there is a way to limit DoF in view for 4.5 or 5.0, to more accurately simulate the realities of air combat in WWII. Ideally to 105 degrees from the "center" of view; arguably you could expand that 105 a bit if you needed to make up for ocular deficiencies on screen, such as not being able to simulate mono ocular peripheral vision very well.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    +1 to the sentiment of the above & to add to it IRL the pilot had goggles on - further restricting the periphery / field of vision....

    ...but I was thinking about this in a different context earlier - namely what it will (hopefully, maybe one day ) be like to fly CloD in VR, where you actually have to physically look behind you to , er look behind you as it were, without all the handy multipliers we have if using Track IR or whatever. Wearing a HMD is like doing so IRL whilst wearing a scuba mask...so I guess any changes may need to cater for that also or you may end up making it almost impossible to check six (with historical accuracy) for VR users..

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    ''Check 6''


    I do apologise...I just couldn't resist...

    Seriously you are right...Although to be fair it's bad enough for me with SA anyway even with the advantage of the extra degrees of vision...
    Last edited by ATAG_Lewis; Mar-16-2017 at 22:02.
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    I have magical zoomable eyeballs too.

    I'm like Lee Majors in that respect.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    [QUOTE=ATAG_Lewis;259343]''Check 6''
    QUOTE]

    10:1 this guy is in a wheel chair now..... after one of his drunken friends decided that he could do a complete 360.....

    I implore you folks to not try this at home!
    "If you want to fly, give up everything that weighs you down"......

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Highseas View Post
    I have magical zoomable eyeballs too.

    I'm like Lee Majors in that respect.
    Seas, you are a $10 000 000 man in our eyes!

    And that's in US dollars, which today, in case you are curious is equal to (off the top of my head):

    8,088,194.64 GBP

    and

    13,351,574.82 CAD

    "If you want to fly, give up everything that weighs you down"......

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    You could try limiting your TrackIR to those settings if you have one.

    It's always a balance between realism and gameplay. Looking at a computer screen is not the same as sitting in a cockpit.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Good points made here, but; How helpful were rear-view mirrors (which we don't yet have) in checking six? RAF fighters all had them, and some pilots apparently modified or added extra mirrors as well.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    This is a great thread and a worthy idea. In the very early days of IL2 CLOD development this was discussed as was changing head slew rates and angles as a function of G, unfortunately none of this saw the light of day. In IL2 Classic the TrackIR profile (DLL) could directly limit Head motion ... (Remember the demise of "Linda Blair" view). Somthing along these lines would imo be a great move. Though it needs to be done in way that cant be overridden by the end user.

    Its also worthy pointing out that Body posture control under G in a fight is another huge player. In the modern fighter seat harness design allows a much greater freedom of Torso movement that the standard WWII Harness .... esp the RAF Sutton harness that is more akin to a straight jacket ! modern fighters also have grab handles distributed around the canopy frame to assist in posture control.

    The current head motion available in Azimuth is certainly excessive.
    Last edited by Ivank; Mar-24-2017 at 19:50.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    I agree with the org post and IvanK I think this is indeed something we should look at for future patches of Clod.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    ??

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    A very thoughtful post from GloriousRuse, as always.
    While at first the idea encountered some resistance in my head, upon some consideration I think it is great.
    It will undoubtedly ruffle some feathers, but has a potential to introduce pretty significant changes to the way people play this. And I think the changes will be for the better.

    Teamwork will definitely become even more important than it is now.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Great post mate.

    I agree on this. Even though it would make it more difficult looking back of course, particularly in my trusty Hurricane, I'm all for the realism on that.

    Pattle

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Thank you everyone for your inputs. I am glad to see that this idea is under consideration. I will seek to answer some of the comments here:

    Mirrors: Not a bad question. From what I can tell, they were either mounted inside the cockpit as a field mod, or outside the cockpit much in the same place CLOD has them modeled. Appropriately, mirrors inside the cockpit tended to have less vibration and were easier to glance at, at the cost of wiping out several degrees of vision wherever they were mounted (hope you didn't need to check your highish 12) and generally giving you a very good view of "your seat" with a bit kicked out to the sides. Not great, but a small improvement over natural human observation limits. Several P-51 accounts prefer this kind of mirror because the bubble cockpit meant you could at least glance back for a narrow and specific portion of your rear, namely the part people tended to shoot you from. Hardly an all sky scanning device, more of an emergency "don't die" device.

    Mirrors mounted external to the cockpit naturally had a reflection towards the six, which is good. They were subject to aerodynamic stress during flight and maneuver with a tendency to vibrate into uselessness in a fight, which is less good. The pilot was also effectively staring into them at a relatively high angle off compared to an in cockpit mirror, reducing the potentially observed area in the reflection. Without more specific measurements, it is hard to generate a scientific answer for what the already modelled spit mirror did, so we are left simply with the reality that ambushes form the rear during the BoB became enough of a problem that the brits, not having yet transitioned to elements and the finger four, had to assign "weavers" to turn back and forth behind the formation to check everyone's six, and those weavers themselves were often the first to die when a formation was bounced because they couldn't really check their own. That does not speak to an easy and steady ability to look to the rear and see any critically large chunk of sky via mirror.

    I am sure you could simulate this limited utility circa 1940 given enough time and resources, however it seems like a very tall coding order in terms of ROI.

    Zoom Eyes: Are meant to make up for a computer's deficiency to accurately portray the full range and depth of human focusing ability. Even with the shiniest and largest screens and most advanced cards, we still cannot do dynamic depth perception very well, nor gradated resolution with distance, nor simulate how your can mentally bring an image into or out of focus. So we use zoom eyes as a poor substitute. It isn't super powering the pilot, it is trying to make up for lack of real life capacity. The six issue is beyond super powering the pilot compared to real life restrictions.

    But you could set these limits on your own trackIR, why do this to everyone? Yes, you could. You could also, if you thought that spitfires had less energy at 27k feet than the current FM allows, vow to only run your throttle at 90% when at high altitude. You could personally correct any deficiency in FM or DM overmodelling for yourself by means of imposed restriction. The tragedy of the commons ensures that this is very unlikely. If for some reason you could mount sidewinders to 109s, you can bet that except for dedicated servers, groups, and missions which actively worked to not carry them when working within their own self screened criteria , you would soon see many a spitfire exploding from heat seekers.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Something not mentioned in this thread is the fact that we have a vision of more than 210° horizontally (without moving our eyes and without turning our heads) and about150° vertically with a very strong movement detection in the periphal. Our monitors limit that to less than 90° horizontally and even with the most advanced VR-Headset we cannot get more than 120°.

    I think that moving our heads/torsos more than realistically possible could be seen as a compensation for that.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Artist: The 210 figure relies on large chunks of vision that are considered one eye only, 2 dimensional input only, peripheral vision. Generally speaking, you actually only get 60 degrees of 3D vision (30 to each side of center) and another 60 of 2D vision(for a total of 60 to each side, and 120 total. Which is incidentally, the max CLOD lets you zoom out your "FOV", though with trackIR you can step back your head for a significantly greater view...

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    You're right, of course. My point is the periphal vision and the movement detection: We are aware of that fly crawling slowly on the wall behind us, without even looking at it (turning head and/or eyes). As a solely virtual pilot, I have no idea what that would mean in a real flight/formation keeping/dogfight, but I assume it helps. We do not have that in our current form of simulation (monitor/headset).

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Dave View Post
    +1 to the sentiment of the above & to add to it IRL the pilot had goggles on - further restricting the periphery / field of vision....

    ...but I was thinking about this in a different context earlier - namely what it will (hopefully, maybe one day ) be like to fly CloD in VR, where you actually have to physically look behind you to , er look behind you as it were, without all the handy multipliers we have if using Track IR or whatever. Wearing a HMD is like doing so IRL whilst wearing a scuba mask...so I guess any changes may need to cater for that also or you may end up making it almost impossible to check six (with historical accuracy) for VR users..
    The only way to check six with Rift is to hang out of the chair, leaning sideways and looking past the headrest at the same side you are leaning.
    Impossible if one were really strapped tightly into a cockpit. If you were strapped in, then I expect 5 and 7 o'clock would be about the best you could achieve unless you happened to star in The Exorcist.

    If you have not tried VR in a combat flight simulator, you would be very surprised what hard work it is, when the radar warning receiver is beeping and showing someone on your tail, while you, in a slow mud mover dodge around valleys, hoping to break his radar lock before he gets into eyeball / IR range by employing terrain masking while simultaneously trying to spot the bogey/incoming missile.

    You can get quite a sweat on doing the seat gymnastics trying to look behind.
    Last edited by Tinkicker; Apr-06-2017 at 16:19.
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    maxresdefault.jpg



    Looking straight back. Goggles on his head...... Checking his own six in a tiny 109 cockpit. He's also a lot older than 18 to 21.......

    Don't mess with the depth of field please.


    If you want a limited view mess with your own track IR settings or buy a VR unit which will narrow your field of view without messing with everyone else.

    The narrow field of view is the major reason I do not fly Battle of Stalingrad.


    Also we have some people with injuries. Don't force them to have to do seat gymnastics to play a video game.

    I myself look forward to building a sim pit for VR where I have space to do those gymnastics but to force it on players is a bad idea. I've undergone back surgery as well. While I can still move about one day I will have limited spinal mobility.


    Please TF don't fix what isn't broken.



    Quote Originally Posted by Artist View Post
    Something not mentioned in this thread is the fact that we have a vision of more than 210° horizontally (without moving our eyes and without turning our heads) and about150° vertically with a very strong movement detection in the periphal. Our monitors limit that to less than 90° horizontally and even with the most advanced VR-Headset we cannot get more than 120°.

    I think that moving our heads/torsos more than realistically possible could be seen as a compensation for that.



    Bingo.

    It's not broken.


    This game is the BEST dogfighter out there with the biggest pro being able to see enemy. A pretty big negative with other combat flight sim options currently.


    I feel very strongly against messing with this.
    Last edited by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER; Apr-16-2017 at 15:19.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Congrats to the original poster for his thoughtful discussion of the issue.

    Certainly we will look at this issue... although time and manpower is a factor as always.

    Smokejumper: If we did implement some changes, it would not change the actual physical demands put on the player... the restrictions would be within the game, not in the area of the person's movement in real life.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Congrats to the original poster for his thoughtful discussion of the issue.

    Certainly we will look at this issue... although time and manpower is a factor as always.

    Smokejumper: If we did implement some changes, it would not change the actual physical demands put on the player... the restrictions would be within the game, not in the area of the person's movement in real life.

    I hope so. I certainly did notice how much more I needed to move my head when playing BoS. I didn't like it.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Quote Originally Posted by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER View Post
    I certainly did notice how much more I needed to move my head when playing BoS.
    In this game the check'6 "culprit" is this guy, who has a short neck.

    The early "girafe neck" was shrunken after this guy "scientific studies".
    Last edited by 1lokos; Apr-16-2017 at 21:31.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Quote Originally Posted by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER View Post
    I hope so. I certainly did notice how much more I needed to move my head when playing BoS. I didn't like it.
    You shouldn't have to move your head more, simply modify your TrackIR profile to be more responsive. When I first started using TrackIR I had to turn my head 90° to look behind me, putting a lot of strain on my eyes because I had to look sideways at the screen. I changed the curves on the TrackIR profile so I only had to move my head a little to look behind and above me, eyestrain went down a lot!


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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Quote Originally Posted by Kendy for the State View Post
    You shouldn't have to move your head more, simply modify your TrackIR profile to be more responsive. When I first started using TrackIR I had to turn my head 90° to look behind me, putting a lot of strain on my eyes because I had to look sideways at the screen. I changed the curves on the TrackIR profile so I only had to move my head a little to look behind and above me, eyestrain went down a lot!


    Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk
    The field of view is more narrow in BoS.

    You have to move your head more there is no way around that. No matter how much I screw with Track IR settings making the field of view more narrow means moving more. I have long since figured out my own customization for Track IR so that isn't my issue. ATAG DB has also complained about the BoS field of view among others.


    I've been paying attention to shoulder checking while driving sinbce I read this thread. I still hate OPs idea. I don't have to crank my body around to see past my door posts and straight out the back window. Just like my photo shows of an old man flying a 109 looking straight back using his eyes and peripheral vision.

    The only way to mimic what we can naturally see is a full VR face shield that has a screen past your ears. If you stick your arms straight out many of us can see our fingers waggling.

    Restricting this field of view on something already limited by a computer monitor is something I dislike. Especially considering that Cliffs has the visual aspect of air combat down. No spotting issues like the others for example.

    Not a fan of messing with something that works.

    I understand the open canopy gripes and all that but I can see far more while operating machines and vehicles than my 34" ultrawide curved screen allows. The field of view is a good compromise as Artist said.



    Quote Originally Posted by Artist View Post
    Something not mentioned in this thread is the fact that we have a vision of more than 210° horizontally (without moving our eyes and without turning our heads) and about150° vertically with a very strong movement detection in the periphal. Our monitors limit that to less than 90° horizontally and even with the most advanced VR-Headset we cannot get more than 120°.

    I think that moving our heads/torsos more than realistically possible could be seen as a compensation for that.


    210 degrees is more than arms straight out and wiggling fingers.



    I'm sure if you guys do mess about with it you'll make it work and I'll adapt. I'd just whinge a bit as I adjusted.

    I know you guys play too so if you hate it you're not going to give us stuff you think sucks. So far so good right!
    Last edited by 7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER; Apr-20-2017 at 00:09.

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  37. #28
    Supporting Member TWC_Mackers's Avatar
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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    The limitations on pilot\bomber head movements in the Blenny is frustrating as hell.

    Is that the sort of limitation being suggested for fighters?

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Strange, I find BoS POV control very flexible, what I achieve just using joy HAT.

    https://youtu.be/bKhB8cDs2ko
    TrackIR probably allows "stretch" the neck a bit more - but I don'get used to TrackIR "floating" POV, this leave me sick.

    What I find that lack in CLoD and BoS is this translation movement not be incorporated by default in POV, their virtual pilot head rotate in fixed central point instead in pilot "neck" - and so look straight for seat:

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...4&d=1489705658

    Virtual neck MOD in DCS:

    https://youtu.be/DdluOHsiagg?t=41
    Last edited by 1lokos; Apr-20-2017 at 01:06.

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    Re: Human Observation Limits - OR - Why You Can't Actually Check Your Own Six

    Track Ir allows you to have your head on backwards. I totally get why people might not like that as unrealistic.

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