View Full Version : BOS Cockpits....
ATAG_Lewis
Apr-21-2014, 09:24
Please forgive me if this has been discussed before..I haven't spent any time looking into this sim nor reading about it....I have a question about an aspect that is quite important to me..
When this sim was introduced to us a question someone put forward was 'Will the cockpits be as good as the CLOD cockpits?'...The answer on the BOD forum in the form of an update was..'No, the CLOD cockpits took a year each to make'..Being an important part of CLOD I felt that this was a step backwards in the WW2 flight sim genre being that it had already been done in CLOD...So my question is...Will the cockpits ever be as good as CLOD?....Seeing as the response was a time limitation can one assume that if the devs (at a later date) feel they want to tweak the cockpits..then they can bring them upto the same standard as CLOD...or..is their an unmentioned limitation to the software that means the cockpit will never be as good
The reason I ask this question is that at some point I WILL be buying this sim...and I see tweaks on BOS like pilot movement and lights and nice graphics...but the cockpits to me actually do look less detailed and underpar compared to CLOD.....and seeing as in a full real server the cockpit is a big part of my immersion it would be nice to know that this will be addressed at some point..
Thanks in advance.
LuseKofte
Apr-21-2014, 09:53
Personally Iprefer the looks in CLOD , if you take away the clickable features in CLOD and just look at the eye candy. I still prefer CLOD German cockpits. IL2 modded cockpits and the 109 in BOS is almost identical but BOS got shadows.
The russian cockpits vs the Spit and Hurry I say is the same . I like the russian cockpits.
The feeling flying the PE-2 is unique by all standards, something about the physics, same goes for the Lagg. All in all Igot much the same feeling flying full realism in BOS and CLOD , but you aint got much to do in BOS compared to CLOD.
I am waiting for the same feature offline in BOS as they got in ROF. I am not much of a online flier. I like the behavior better on AI :)
All in all I think you will be pleased by the pits , but clickable they aint going to be ever
Most of the cockpits look very 'flat' to me, and flying 'full real' it definitely feels like a step backwards after the CoD 'pits. The Stuka 'pit is quite good, the 109 'pit is terrible. I doubt very much they will change them.
Depends if you can get over that or not, to me it is a big part of the game experience.
The ghost
Apr-21-2014, 10:21
I kinda like the Battle of Stalingrad cockpits myself, they don't look as detailed but I can understand the logistics behind that choice, perhaps in the future they will revisit them when time is not such a factor as it is now.
They did kinda make it clear (as the OP quoted) that the cockpits just would not be the same, it is not like they did so because they intentionally wanted to compromise, it was just a choice that had to be made, taking the time needed to make Cliffs of Dover level cockpits would have hurt the development more than it would have helped it and while we can sigh and say it is a step back, it is reality and it makes logical sense.
If they did everything required to please the existing Cliffs of Dover fanbase, the sim would take much longer to complete than they have and it would run far over-budget (and probably risk getting cancelled outright while dragging 777 and it's Rise of flight development down with it).
AS far as clickable pits go, since Cliffs of Dover only has a few clickable elements per pit, I don't really worry about it, all in all, I would rather either fully clickable or not at all, half way seemed like a odd choice and makes for a lot of "can I click that? No? hmm".
If I want to click around in a pit, I kinda stick to DCS A-10C or the other DCS modules.
Arthursmedley
Apr-21-2014, 11:02
The reason I ask this question is that at some point I WILL be buying this sim...and I see tweaks on BOS like pilot movement and lights and nice graphics...but the cockpits to me actually do look less detailed and underpar compared to CLOD.....and seeing as in a full real server the cockpit is a big part of my immersion it would be nice to know that this will be addressed at some point..
Thanks in advance.
I understand completely where you are coming from on this Lewis as for me too, one of the joys of CoD is flying high above the channel in the still quite stunning 'pits we have. The short answer to your question is no. The 'pits in BoS will not be on the same level as CoD. They have been made by a different method and to a different standard. They have grown on me but as has been pointed out above, the standard can vary. For me personally my favourites are the Stuka, the LaGG and the PE2 so far. I think the '109 and Yak 'pits a bit of a let down. The 109 in particular I don't think is a big enough advance over some of the really good repaints done for IL2 1946 by modders. In some aspects I think the 'pits in Rise of Flight still exceed them.
BoS '109 pit in action with the slightly bizarre founders-skin-nicked-from-a-190!:stunned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyWHSGABaf0
The really strong point for BoS ( and RoF ) immersion at the moment - at least for me - is how well they have created the illusion of flight on a pc. The 'pits it ain't! Will these be changed in the future? Unlikely.
Their skin choices completely baffle me...
Talisman
Apr-21-2014, 11:57
Most of the cockpits look very 'flat' to me, and flying 'full real' it definitely feels like a step backwards after the CoD 'pits. The Stuka 'pit is quite good, the 109 'pit is terrible. I doubt very much they will change them.
Depends if you can get over that or not, to me it is a big part of the game experience.
Interesting you should say 'flat' Archie, because I find the CloD cockpits very 'flat' compared to BoS; it was the main thing that first struck me with early access.
I find the CloD cockpits 'sharper' than BoS, but definitely 'flat' in comparison. On my PC, the BoS cockpits have much more depth (3D effect) and I feel much more like I am in the cockpit. I also like the slight vibration effect as it adds to the immersion.
One of my squad mates, who also has early access, said at first that he thought the BoS cockpits were 'flat', but after I said they appeared just the opposite to me, he checked his PC settings and found that by adjusting something, I can't remember what, he then had more of a 3D effect too. Also, it appears to me that since the last update, to bring us up to 45% complete, the BoS graphics are now sharper than they were.
Perhaps you need to check your graphic settings for optimum effect. You might be missing out.
P.S. I really don't like the cinematic motion blur setting that has been put in for film makers and make sure that I don't have it turned on for flight. Good for film effects after the event, but not for normal flight IMHO. The default setting appears to tick the box for the film makers motion blur effect as on. Each time I get an update I need to turn it off or I get that awful motion blur effect when moving my head with TIR in the cockpit.
Happy landings,
Talisman
Bo$ cockpit don't have the CloD visuals (maybe due DX9 x DX10), but looks very good and are easy readable.
CloD ones are too dark under no proper light conditions, and his illumination seems done with 6v tired bulbs... on BoS is used 24v LED illumination. :D
Bo$ cockpit have too better 6DOF that CloD ones, and say with the possibility of creating snap view for specific points (what CloD P-8 claim...)
The operable controls are animated - in Clod some are not (e.g. Spit trim wheels, brake lever, Bf 109 brakes)...
In short, Bo$ cockpits are very good, and combine well with the overall game proposal and look - which his excessive blur (similar to Wings of Prey).
Is like his clouds, are not the more beautiful see on sim's, but I say that have the best implementation I see on CFS, his overcast actually
covers the entire visible area. In the last EA suffer from excessive blur.
Sokol1
The ghost
Apr-21-2014, 13:15
Bo$ cockpit don't have the CloD visuals (maybe due DX9 x DX10), but looks very good and are easy readable.
CloD ones are too dark under no proper light conditions, and his illumination seems done with 6v tired bulbs... on BoS is used 24v LED illumination. :D
Bo$ cockpit have too better 6DOF that CloD ones, and say with the possibility of creating snap view for specific points (what CloD P-8 claim...)
The operable controls are animated - in Clod some are not (e.g. Spit trim wheels, brake lever, Bf 109 brakes)...
In short, Bo$ cockpits are very good, and combine well with the overall game proposal and look - which his excessive blur (similar to Wings of Prey).
Is like his clouds, are not the more beautiful see on sim's, but I say that have the best implementation I see on CFS, his overcast actually
covers the entire visible area. In the last EA suffer from excessive blur.
Sokol1
I think the headtracking thing is actually a really important point, in Cliffs of Dover, the head tracking feels really sloppy, it is difficult to get your head into a position behind the gunsight on the 109 (not so bad in other planes) but everything overall feels very odd, other flight sims (Battle of Stalingrad included) seem to handle head tracking just fine, very smooth and with no real difficulty.
Perhaps this is something that Team fusion can fix?
ATAG_Lolsav
Apr-21-2014, 13:33
I think the headtracking thing is actually a really important point, in Cliffs of Dover, the head tracking feels really sloppy, it is difficult to get your head into a position behind the gunsight on the 109 (not so bad in other planes) but everything overall feels very odd, other flight sims (Battle of Stalingrad included) seem to handle head tracking just fine, very smooth and with no real difficulty.
Perhaps this is something that Team fusion can fix?
We have diffrent experiences towards CLOD i guess. I fine tune my TrackIr and get no "sloppy" behaviour. Maybe i didnt quite understood or i am a "easy guy" to content, but definetly we have diffrent perceptions. If you wish i will leave here my trackir profile for you to test, its slow/steady in the middle and fast on the sides (i think you get the general idea).
Of course you have to "lean to gunsight" a heritage from IL246 behaviour, but... i was used to it and takes less than a second to lean foward/back.
Don't have that TiR problem in CoD either...
MonThackma
Apr-21-2014, 13:42
The cockpits look good in BoS, but not as refined as CoD in my opinion. The worst part is that nothing is clickable. No plans to make anything clickable in the future. They specifically stated that this sim is not a trainer, like DCS.
But... flying is fun and the damage model is freakin sweet. I expect many things will get better with time.
I can't think of a reason not to own CoD, BoS, RoF and DCS. I don't get too bent out of shape about the shortcomings of each, and instead, enjoy what's good in each. At the end of the day, CoD is still providing the best overall experience. Thanks Team Fusion!
Indeed, I hate the motion blur in BoS with TiR movement. Very distracting. Still think the clouds look bad. After flying with REX + ASN in FSX for so many hours, everything else pales in comparison. Simple truth is - the clouds in CoD and BoS don't look like clouds at all, until you are right up on them.
The ghost
Apr-21-2014, 13:45
We have diffrent experiences towards CLOD i guess. I fine tune my TrackIr and get no "sloppy" behaviour. Maybe i didnt quite understood or i am a "easy guy" to content, but definetly we have diffrent perceptions. If you wish i will leave here my trackir profile for you to test, its slow/steady in the middle and fast on the sides (i think you get the general idea).
Of course you have to "lean to gunsight" a heritage from IL246 behaviour, but... i was used to it and takes less than a second to lean foward/back.
I suppose I was a bit vague, it has nothing to do with settings (I use freetrack and have tuned it very carefully so that it works as well as I could want with every sim) but more to do with how Cliffs of Dover itself handles it, to be more precise, when I am flying a 109, I find that there is a odd bit of resistance around the gunsight itself, it makes getting behind the gunsight take longer than it really should and it does not feel smooth at all.
Keep in kind, this is not really a deadzone issue as the other planes in Cliffs of Dover work okay, it is just the 109 that really has issues for some reason or another.
Lets not turn this into a place where we get defensive about our favorite sims, I am not trying to say that Cliffs of Dover is a abject failure or anything else to get defensive about, I am simply saying that it's headtracking implementation (at least in regards to the 109) could have been a lot better, it feels odd (and yes, I have tried tweaking and even making a head tracking profile just for Cliffs of Dover but I just had to accept that it was not something I can fix through my head tracking).
To further try to explain what I experience, it feels like the gunsight itself is "slippery", I can move freely everywhere else but if I try to move my head in a way that puts the gunsight where it needs to be, the view "slides" quickly away from it, like my center view and the gunsight are magnets that are opposing each other, that is why I say it feels sloppy.
No other sim I play has this behavior and I am fully aware of how to adjust my head tracking for various applications.
ATAG_Lolsav
Apr-21-2014, 13:49
Lets not turn this into a place where we get defensive about our favorite sims
Was not my itention to do so. I just stated i couldnt replicate the behaviour you have described and offered the help i could give to overcome that specific problem. I now realize you have a diffrent tracking system and it is out of my powers to provide assistance.
Its all good :)
I suppose I was a bit vague, it has nothing to do with settings (I use freetrack and have tuned it very carefully so that it works as well as I could want with every sim) but more to do with how Cliffs of Dover itself handles it, to be more precise, when I am flying a 109, I find that there is a odd bit of resistance around the gunsight itself, it makes getting behind the gunsight take longer than it really should and it does not feel smooth at all.
Keep in kind, this is not really a deadzone issue as the other planes in Cliffs of Dover work okay, it is just the 109 that really has issues for some reason or another.
Lets not turn this into a place where we get defensive about our favorite sims, I am not trying to say that Cliffs of Dover is a abject failure or anything else to get defensive about, I am simply saying that it's headtracking implementation (at least in regards to the 109) could have been a lot better, it feels odd (and yes, I have tried tweaking and even making a head tracking profile just for Cliffs of Dover but I just had to accept that it was not something I can fix through my head tracking).
To further try to explain what I experience, it feels like the gunsight itself is "slippery", I can move freely everywhere else but if I try to move my head in a way that puts the gunsight where it needs to be, the view "slides" quickly away from it, like my center view and the gunsight are magnets that are opposing each other, that is why I say it feels sloppy.
No other sim I play has this behavior and I am fully aware of how to adjust my head tracking for various applications.
Nothing is wrong with head tracking in CloD. Freetrack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVulGZQ20Os
And about cockpits, they are using 3D models made by MG team and they just placed low resolution textures on it.
Why? We don't know for sure. Devs were asked can they include hi-res ones to be optional and answer was no.
MonThackma
Apr-21-2014, 14:09
Devs were asked can they include hi-res ones to be optional and answer was no.
I am quite sure modders will make some hires textures in the future. Give it time.
The ghost
Apr-21-2014, 14:16
Nothing is wrong with head tracking in CloD. Freetrack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVulGZQ20Os
And about cockpits, they are using 3D models made by MG team and they just placed low resolution textures on it.
Why? We don't know for sure. Devs were asked can they include hi-res ones to be optional and answer was no.
Do you have horizontal movement enabled? I mean, I see you are zooming to the gunsight and that works fine for me as well but when I am not zoomed into the gunsight (which I prefer because I don't like the FOV limitation of it zoomed), I find it is a fight to get a clear, nicely centered view on the gunsight, it fights me and it very much does not feel like a problem with my head tracking as it does not occur on any other aircraft in Cliffs of Dover.
It would be difficult to show in video (both because I don't know how to record videos as well as the fact that it would not really show up in video because it is more of a feeling thing than a visual thing).
I'm a laymen about 3D but they had the original textures also. A texture is a texture, not engine specific if one can support hi-res textures.
But I could be wrong.
The thing is, the Bo$ 6DOF is more "gamer", what please the crowd.
Look at this picture posted above:
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9213&d=1398092079
The camera POV are outside of plane, and you can use this in flight if open the canopy (in Bf 109 is need eject then), for example for landing.
Or looking at six you can see from behind pilot seat head rest. You have a direct six "Linda Blair" vision. :devilish:
In short, the camera have move movement, freedom.
IMO - For me at moment the game low point is the 90% done (so is more Gold, than Alpha or Beta) appellative "Hollywood" DM with planes cracking -getting surfaces together by "strands of glue", flapping - and still flying - looking as if were made of papier maché... and the (engine) dyssynchrony between physical and visual damages - e.g. the explosion of 20mm grenades will not appear on hitting surfaces (e.g. wing), but appears some meters behind, this cause a impression that the surface have a big "hit box" (dont see the case).
But truth be told, all this "Hollywood" has conquered many "hearts and minds". :thumbsup:
As game, depending on how this campaign "Unlock things" is implemented, I dare say will have a big "fun factor". :)
Sokol1
Do you have horizontal movement enabled? I mean, I see you are zooming to the gunsight and that works fine for me as well but when I am not zoomed into the gunsight (which I prefer because I don't like the FOV limitation of it zoomed), I find it is a fight to get a clear, nicely centered view on the gunsight, it fights me and it very much does not feel like a problem with my head tracking as it does not occur on any other aircraft in Cliffs of Dover.
Horizontal movement yes, but only on x axis. It works well on all of them but I find it more comfortable this way especially when aiming.
They made precise position of the gunsight because it was a bit right from the center of a cockpit.
You can just lean a bit to the left and center your FT there or you can make another custom center point and assign a key for it in FT.
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2049/190revi1.jpg
ATAG_EvangelusE
Apr-21-2014, 14:36
It's very subjective, for me the BoS pits are less detailed and 'flat' in comparison to CloD. Freetrack works well in both and I haven't found it necessary to make any changes to my sensitivity, axis graphs, etc.
I did have the motion blur problem when panning left right and that was a real 'put off' but I read in the BoS forum this 'blur' can be switched off in the game settings but I haven't tried it yet. I suppose I ought to boot BoS up and see if the fix works but at the moment I prefer to spend my time in CloD.
Most of the cockpits look very 'flat' to me, and flying 'full real' it definitely feels like a step backwards after the CoD 'pits. The Stuka 'pit is quite good, the 109 'pit is terrible. I doubt very much they will change them.
Depends if you can get over that or not, to me it is a big part of the game experience.
Plus one... you are in my mind...
Mastiff
Apr-21-2014, 15:15
It's very subjective, for me the BoS pits are less detailed and 'flat' in comparison to CloD. Freetrack works well in both and I haven't found it necessary to make any changes to my sensitivity, axis graphs, etc.
I did have the motion blur problem when panning left right and that was a real 'put off' but I read in the BoS forum this 'blur' can be switched off in the game settings but I haven't tried it yet. I suppose I ought to boot BoS up and see if the fix works but at the moment I prefer to spend my time in CloD.
Wow E very simple click on camera controls bottom left corner uncheck the cinematic box. and your golden. your simple I cant afford the 2 extra clicks or 10 seconds to uncheck that is really petty. :-P (I'm only being facetious about that response also.)
LuseKofte
Apr-21-2014, 16:46
The russian cockpits beat the Spitfire cockpit in CLOD in my opinion, somehow the 3D effect or whatever work better in the Hurrycane pit in CLOD in my opinion.
The flat appearances in BOS I think goes for 109 cockpit witch to me was a disappointment.
My TrackIr is working smoother and better in BOS wider 6DOF and if that is game like, be my guest I still think that is better. I have no problem with TrackIr in CLOD but it is just not that smooth
Chuck_Owl
Apr-21-2014, 16:49
Lots of russian cockpits feel really "flat" simply because they were actually pretty flat and ugly IRL. Still, I agree that textures could be better. Here is a comparison between BoS and Real-life cockpits.
Bf-109
9220http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/models/aftermarket/aires/32_f/10132_cockpit.jpg
Ju-87
9224http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/Flugzeuge/Erdkampf/Ju87D-5/cockpit/gross/1.jpg
Yak-1
9227
Il-2
9223
Pe-2
9226
LaGG-3
9225http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/cockpits/cockpit1.jpg
Lots of russian cockpits feel really "flat" simply because they were actually pretty flat and ugly IRL.
http://i59.tinypic.com/t5nct3.jpg
:thumbsup:
Sokol1
Foul Ole Ron
Apr-21-2014, 18:09
I am quite sure modders will make some hires textures in the future. Give it time.
Modders don't have access to those files as far as I know. It's not like DCS where users are free to make even higher-res cockpits like the ones Ricardo did for the Hog and Blackshark. The only thing they'll let us play with are skins I think. All in all I find the BOS cockpits a bit on the disappointing side. As has been pointed out some are better than others with the Lagg-3 being fine for me and the 109 being probably the biggest disappointment at all - really needs a do-over as it looks so flat.
That being said I could probably live with the cockpits if they'd improve a few other areas in the game such as the DM, highly excessive roll rates of all planes, etc. It has a really nice feeling of flight - especially the light buffeting you get from wind & turbulence. If they're willing to push on and do it properly they could have a great product on their hands but I'd be afraid their ROF behaviour will just rear it's head again. They're in a rush to get this out the door and there'll be things that need revising as a result which their track record is not great at - they don't see $ in fixing stuff they consider finished. Guess we'll see how it plays out this time.
ATAG_Lolsav
Apr-21-2014, 18:32
Modders don't have access to those files as far as I know.
Have you carefully took a look on 110s cockpits? I dont know if its possible to all of them, but take a bit of time to inspect those cockpits, they might surprise you. ;)
Edit: Sorry, tought you were talking about CLOD cockpits.
They're in a rush to get this out the door and there'll be things that need revising as a result which their track record is not great at - they don't see $ in fixing stuff they consider finished. Guess we'll see how it plays out this time.
This ^
aus3620
Apr-21-2014, 19:42
I still think the CLoD cockpits and the clickable feature make them a winner hands down.
Having said that, it is not like the BOS cockpits are terrible IMHO. In fact I would say they are very good and you can fly by the instruments (the most important factor).
Have not put a heap of time into BOS, a bit annoying not being able to trim the aircraft, it feels like the aircraft has full nose up trim all the time. I'm giving the FM the benefit of the doubt until trim is introduced. Feels a little odd to me at the moment but I'm no expert, and it is still Alpha so you have to have reasonable expectations at this stage.
Lot of good things happening in BOS and I'm quietly confident the devs will get more right than wrong, especially when compared to CLoD's nightmare release. (Huge thanks to TF for their work, I was pessimistic early but they have bought home the bacon!).
ATAG_EvangelusE
Apr-21-2014, 21:00
Wow E very simple click on camera controls bottom left corner uncheck the cinematic box. and your golden. your simple I cant afford the 2 extra clicks or 10 seconds to uncheck that is really petty. :-P (I'm only being facetious about that response also.)
Hi Mastiff, having read developers Blog 62, I uninstalled and re-downloaded the new installer and the game (2Gb in total....took bloody ages!) so will definitely boot up BoS and a have go this week (with offending cinematic camera de-activated).............:D
Mastiff
Apr-21-2014, 22:29
Hi Mastiff, having read developers Blog 62, I uninstalled and re-downloaded the new installer and the game (2Gb in total....took bloody ages!) so will definitely boot up BoS and a have go this week (with offending cinematic camera de-activated).............:D
they do plan to have that auto off so you wont have to keep doing it.
MonThackma
Apr-21-2014, 23:16
a bit annoying not being able to trim the aircraft, it feels like the aircraft has full nose up trim all the time.
Trim wheels on my CH Combatstick work perfectly in BoS. I didn't even have to assign the function - worked with default settings.
Maybe search the IL2 forum for more info. Good luck.
Is because CH joysticks "trim wheels" are not a trim, or a analog axis like in, e.g. Saitek Trim, is a mechanical device that just off center the joystick potentiometer.
Not too useful for other games, but perfect for Bo$ planes, that need a off center joystick. :thumbsup:
This can be done with software, e.g. TARGET, CH Manager or for less "gold" joystick's with DView (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10118).
Of course all this is workaround, not the ideal solution: in game trim. :)
My guess is that RoF engine don't have trim on code... SE5A have adjustable stabilizer angle, already "inherited" by Bf-109. :D
Sokol1
Re: Headtracking - Is it just me or you can't really move your head as freely in BOS? I find it stops me half way when i pitch my head up and I have to do this weird side turn and I loose track of who I'm looking at... no such problem in CloD.
Wow E very simple click on camera controls bottom left corner uncheck the cinematic box. and your golden. your simple I cant afford the 2 extra clicks or 10 seconds to uncheck that is really petty. :-P (I'm only being facetious about that response also.)
Is there a way to "untick" the blurry planes (when they fly through the clouds or flying from them) or blurry horizon when lookin at the clouds (most noticable in superwide view)? This awfull cloud-blurr was "introduced" in the patch before the last one...
JG4_sKylon
Apr-23-2014, 05:50
Re: Headtracking - Is it just me or you can't really move your head as freely in BOS? I find it stops me half way when i pitch my head up and I have to do this weird side turn and I loose track of who I'm looking at... no such problem in CloD.
Are you using FacetrackNoIR?
That´s a known problem, same with ROF.
Try Freetrack or Opentrack instead.
Are you using FacetrackNoIR?
That´s a known problem, same with ROF.
Try Freetrack or Opentrack instead.
ahh... i didn't know that! Couldn't get Freetrack to work, I think it's not supported by devs anyway. I'll give opentrack a try. Thanks!
JG4_sKylon
Apr-23-2014, 06:56
ahh... i didn't know that! Couldn't get Freetrack to work, I think it's not supported by devs anyway. I'll give opentrack a try. Thanks!
I tried Opentrack and it worked fine.
But i had FTNoIR still installed and suddenly none of the trackers was recognized ingame.
Be careful when you try.
Good luck.
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