Last Night

[AKA_Recon]

So I finally had a good chance to try this out since steam was down last night...

I'm really unimpressed. I obviously am interested in seeing this be good, as I don't like to throw $85 around for nothing. But it was very cartoonish compared to Cliffs of Dover.

It does a good job in it's interface, but that is gravy, I'm more interested in how the plane flies, gunnery, dm, etc..

I was very frustrated by the TrackIR - in CloD when I zoom all the way out, I'm zoomed all the way out. In BoS, I zoomed all the way back, but then had to actually lean back in my chair to 'fully zoom back' - so I just found this very awkward (and my neck hurts this morning - lol). There is an annoying 'cinematic effect' - which I was just utterly confused by... luckily I learned it could turned off - maybe the devs think when we turn out heads we get blurred vision - reminded me of 'ghosting' on my HDTV, not a feature for sure right ??? Perhaps the dev who created this needs to get his head checked, well, at least his eyes! :)

I do need work on the controls as well, maybe I'm just used to the smoothness of CloD, and need special settings in BoS - but it does concern me that I might have to be a joystick curves expert just to get simple controls to work correctly.

And then again, this is 'early access', but I find it interesting that the game doesn't look very good to me.

All in all, I didn't enjoy it too much. I ended up switching back to CloD to do some offline gunnery practice instead. Back to wonderful cockpits, and a believable sense of flight.

This experience reminds me of how good of a job TF has done, as CloD is smooth, clean, crisp, looks wonderful, plays even better!

[ATAG_Lewis]

Thanks for the review....I have been toying with the idea of buying BOS...but at nearly $100 its a bit steep I think when CLOD is so good....If this had been the only WWII flight sim around I would have it by now....but at the moment I am between buying it now or waiting for it to dramatically come down in price....I mean the benefits for getting early access will be outweighed by the cost of the game when it does eventually drop pricewise......Hmmmmmm...a dilema

[dburne]

So I finally had a good chance to try this out since steam was down last night...


I do need work on the controls as well, maybe I'm just used to the smoothness of CloD, and need special settings in BoS - but it does concern me that I might have to be a joystick curves expert just to get simple controls to work correctly.


Personally I think the controls are off - the planes are just too sensitive in the pitch and yaw axis - at least to me. There has been much discussion over on their forums on this topic, and there a handful of hard core realists that insist this is how it should be and how it should have been done all along. Well if that is the case, I guess up until now all flight sims got it wrong...
I find it very difficult to aim and get some decent shots off, due to this sensitivity. I have never seen this kind of sensitivity in any other flight sim, including ROF.

Remains to be seen I guess whether this will be adjusted for the final version or not.

[The ghost]

I have a honest question, I am not trying to pick a fight, this is something worth thinking about.

Are you basing your dislike of the flight model on what has been noted about the aircraft in reality or on your specific experiences with Cliffs of Dover?

The two sims are very different, that much is sure, both Cliffs of Dover and Battle of Stalingrad feel entirely different, though to be perfectly truthful, it is difficult to really know what one "gets it right" and what one gets it wrong, I know that I have very few difficulties with Battle of Stalingrad's controls but at the same time, I find the controls in Cliffs of Dover a bit floaty, more-so than in titles like DCS P-51D (which I consider the pinnacle) and any other WWII sim that I have played.

Everyone is going to have a preferred product, many here have spent significant amounts of time learning Cliffs of Dover, adjusting to it's specific quirks, sticking with it despite it's initial difficulties and forgiving more of them while we wait for them to be fixed, Battle of Stalingrad comes along and is so different, built entirely on a different set of building blocks and with different approaches to just about everything, well, it is no wonder that many Cliffs of Dover players are put off, perhaps it is more a matter of adjustment and less on the overall quality of the sim.

[LuseKofte]

Due to me flying with a yoke full length I find BOS controls very nice lack of trim yes but no different than clod. TrackIr is better to me in BOS than in CLOD. So I really cannot understand why these things are so different between the users.
For me , I have no favorite other than I am a bit fed up with CLOD and looking for some change. I am atm in favor for CLOD since the servers there are campaign , but for fast offline fun I like BOS better

[darkside3/4]

I have a honest question, I am not trying to pick a fight, this is something worth thinking about.

Are you basing your dislike of the flight model on what has been noted about the aircraft in reality or on your specific experiences with Cliffs of Dover?

The two sims are very different, that much is sure, both Cliffs of Dover and Battle of Stalingrad feel entirely different, though to be perfectly truthful, it is difficult to really know what one "gets it right" and what one gets it wrong, I know that I have very few difficulties with Battle of Stalingrad's controls but at the same time, I find the controls in Cliffs of Dover a bit floaty, more-so than in titles like DCS P-51D (which I consider the pinnacle) and any other WWII sim that I have played.

Everyone is going to have a preferred product, many here have spent significant amounts of time learning Cliffs of Dover, adjusting to it's specific quirks, sticking with it despite it's initial difficulties and forgiving more of them while we wait for them to be fixed, Battle of Stalingrad comes along and is so different, built entirely on a different set of building blocks and with different approaches to just about everything, well, it is no wonder that many Cliffs of Dover players are put off, perhaps it is more a matter of adjustment and less on the overall quality of the sim.

Not directed at you but towards everyone who talks about FM's, I've thrown this at many Cliffs players as well. Books ain't flying, until any of us have flown any of these airframes in real life they don't have a clue. Five words on a page don't translate to the 1000 air molecules flowing over a real 109 wing or Lagg Stab. With that being said we dont know squat about the reality of the FM situation unless you can grab these old aviators out of the retirement home and play both. There is a reason seat of the pants is a a common term, books don't give you that feel and never will. Every test pilot report on control effectiveness gives you only a excerpt of the control forces and inputs required. So all of our idea of good bad might be completely garbage on all sims.

Regardless of this, in my opinion from many years of RL life flying, something just feels off as the BOS birds go thru the air, I don't know if its the physics model or my joystick but that's my main gripe with it so far.

[AKA_Recon]

Well I don't care for fast online fun, ROF became like that, one server called flying circus where people go round in round in circles isn't what I invest $85 for :)

We will see, this is my impression, and the game isn't done yet, but I think the visual is cartoonish, the snow landscape boring, the planes fly strangely. I'm hoping for more!

I just think clod is the current pinnacle

Perhaps it's from years of il2 1946

I did like the sense of flight in ROF

[dburne]

I have a honest question, I am not trying to pick a fight, this is something worth thinking about.

Are you basing your dislike of the flight model on what has been noted about the aircraft in reality or on your specific experiences with Cliffs of Dover?


In my case, I just base it off of every flight sim I have flow over the last couple of decades or so.

I have absolutely no clue how these aircraft should fly and feel in reality, and that really does not matter that much to me, as I am not nor will I ever be flying in reality.

I do want to be able to maintain some semblance of decent control of the virtual aircraft I am flying - and yes I can maintain control in the BOS planes , but it just seems to me to be overly sensitive in the pitch and yaw axis and it just aggravates me when trying to fine tune an aim to get that good shot off.

Other than that I am enjoying the Alpha version of the sim for what it is, though my main love and go to sim is Cliffs of Dover...

I hope to get a lot of enjoyment out of BOS when the final product is out as well - however, if what I perceive as the extreme sensitivity remains as is when it is officially released, , I doubt I will do much with it.

[AKA_Recon]

you have summarized exactly my take on it.

glad I'm not alone here :)

[gavagai]

Not directed at you but towards everyone who talks about FM's, I've thrown this at many Cliffs players as well. Books ain't flying, until any of us have flown any of these airframes in real life they don't have a clue. Five words on a page don't translate to the 1000 air molecules flowing over a real 109 wing or Lagg Stab.

1000 air molecules?:stunned: It's funny to me how those who know the least about physics/science are usually the first to claim that you have to fly an authentic warbird before you can reasonably comment on a flight model.

[darkside3/4]

1000 air molecules?:stunned: It's funny to me how those who know the least about physics/science are usually the first to claim that you have to fly an authentic warbird before you can reasonably comment on a flight model.

I guess the fact that I fly upside down and pull G's at work daily doesnt qualify me to talk, roger that internet expert, ill shut up.

[LuseKofte]

Well that tells me this must be realistic then. No one in 1942 fingertip maneuvered any airplane into the perfect shot.
I cannot tell how weird it sounds when people complain about the feeling of flight when they sit in their chair with digital hotas/ joystick and complain about that. Because that is the real unrealistic feature in any flightsim.
I think the scenery is as good as it can be, but it is sooooo boring, but then again there are no mountains in that aerea. And the snow endless.

[vranac]

Regardless of this, in my opinion from many years of RL life flying, something just feels off as the BOS birds go thru the air, I don't know if its the physics model or my joystick but that's my main gripe with it so far.

Exactly what my friend RL military pilot said but he was more specific. Don't get me wrong, he loves RoF FM.
I expected very good FM from them, not the graphics and other stuff but FM.

[darkside3/4]

The scenery is excellent, most of the pits are decent, but many of the aircraft feel like there is a very small portion the aircraft trying to find the relative wind always it seems awkward. These planes were not light and loaded down they should feel like the fly thru the air as a hunk of metal, not a kite. Your correct Lusekofte no sim is ever 100% like flying the real thing but that doesn't mean we cant try to get as darn close as we can. It might not even be the FM, it might be the devs not investing enough time into a good default joystick profile yet.

As an alpha I wouldn't care, but the word is they FM's are pretty much set apparently.

[dburne]

The scenery is excellent, most of the pits are decent, but many of the aircraft feel like there is a very small portion the aircraft trying to find the relative wind always it seems awkward. These planes were not light and loaded down they should feel like the fly thru the air as a hunk of metal, not a kite.

When I am turning, especially in sharper turns, it feels a lot like ROF to me.

[The ghost]

Perhaps my perspective is different because I never really took the time to get _really_ attached to Cliffs of Dover, I enjoy it, I play it pretty darn often but in the end, I tend to take flight sims as a sort of complete package, every one of them does something better than the other and as a whole, they provide a good overall experience.

I don't want to plant my flag in any particular camp, it seems pointless to me anyway, I just take them all for what they are.

[gavagai]

I guess the fact that I fly upside down and pull G's at work daily doesnt qualify me to talk, roger that internet expert, ill shut up.

You were the one saying others had no place commenting, not me.

A 150 degree/second roll rate is what it is. I don't care if it's a 9 year old kid or someone with an 80 point IQ who points it out. Only a few WW2 fighters could roll so fast, and the LagG-3 wasn't one of them. Any criticism based in quantitative fact and dispassionate observation stands on its own merit.

[LuseKofte]

Perhaps my perspective is different because I never really took the time to get _really_ attached to Cliffs of Dover, I enjoy it, I play it pretty darn often but in the end, I tend to take flight sims as a sort of complete package, every one of them does something better than the other and as a whole, they provide a good overall experience.

I don't want to plant my flag in any particular camp, it seems pointless to me anyway, I just take them all for what they are.

And by these simple wise words he did explain what I mean. thank you , mate. I agree totally :)

[darkside3/4]

Deleted double post.

[darkside3/4]

We all have no clue, everyones basis is pure academic including mine with the aircraft FM details. Its funny brought over a friend who flies the same thing as me and had similar handling comments. Thats were P51 got their acts together and got feedback from dudes flying the pony. Stop inferring I meant something different professor.

[Chuck_Owl]

We all have no clue, everyones basis is pure academic including mine with the aircraft FM details. Its funny brought over a friend who flies the same thing as me and had similar handling comments. Thats were P51 got their acts together and got feedback from dudes flying the pony. Stop inferring I meant something different professor.

Couldn't agree more with you on the pony test pilots. Feedback from the pilots is just as important as having game testers to help identify bugs.

Regarding FM, I think some things do not really make sense in some of the planes in BoS (mainly the roll characteristics which are just out of this world at the moment), and that's if you compare historical data with what we can currently do in-game. However, historical data varies from country to country and from aircraft to aircraft. For instance, some aircraft flown by both Germans and Finns (like the 109) were operated differently under different climatic conditions. Lend-lease aircraft handed to the Russians were considered obsolete by the Allies, but the Russian engineers, crew members and pilots found ways to make them much more efficient by using different fuel and adapting them to the operational conditions they were subjected to. Flight performance can vary quite a lot and it is extremely hard, even by today's standards, to have a 100 % accurate picture of an aircraft's theoretical/predicted vs real-life behaviour.

Some very knowledgeable guys (among them aerospace engineers) came to the RoF staff (777 studios, which now does BoS) and presented them with accurate data charts explaining why the in-game flight models were inaccurate. That was a while ago in the Rise of Flight forums. 777 simply disregarded their advice and told them that they had neither the time nor the money to "fix" these models and that they were fine like they were. I suppose that the exact same will happen with BoS as well, as they are pressured to be on time rather than being exact. It seems that it's how the business works nowadays: time and money is always short when you're in a niche market and I wouldn't be surprised that the guys at 777 really care about their sim, have the best intentions in the world and want to be as accurate as possible. But I wouldn't be surprised if some guy higher up at 1C told them the cold hard truth about the video game industry.

Regarding aerodynamic properties and the process in getting it right, I think Eagle Dynamics got the process bang on with the P-51D, and like Jarhead said, they consulted pilots and made major alterations to their flight model, which should be the benchmark for every flight simulator flight model IMHO.

[trademe900]

Thank you for sharing your account of trying out BoS, Recon. I'm sorry to hear what you got from the $85 you paid out. I will not be buying this product either and I simply hope Clod stands it's ground with player population and that people continue to enjoy the FM's and realism from TF's work.

[Hood]

Recon, you don't really comment on what you're interested in other than saying you had problems. Lots do.

I'm confused why people think the CLOD FM is the pinnacle as it's all a bit easy. Maybe it was in real life or maybe it's just the difference between how the joystick profiles are set up at the moment.

I know that BOS had a full length stick, rather than a pc stick, modelled and maybe that's the difference.

In also hoping that the scenario will lead to a better multiplayer experience. In many respects it should do as the situation allows for attack/defend on both sides and there is the planeset to do it.

CLOD is a bit boring now unfortunately as there is no new content. We'll see what comes but it may just be Spits v 109s over sand.

Hood

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

I know that BOS had a full length stick, rather than a pc stick, modelled and maybe that's the difference.

I am really surprised the developers advocated this position or at least have not refuted it. Flight sims are a limited genre as it is, I would not want my product to have the stigma that "special" hardware is required on top of the already demanding hardware requirements. Somehow every other flight sim is able to model the controls to be customized to almost any input device yet BoS is taking a different approach?

I really want this sim to succeed but this seems like a dumb way of doing things.

[ATAG_Snapper]

I am really surprised the developers advocated this position or at least have not refuted it. Flight sims are a limited genre as it is, I would not want my product to have the stigma that "special" hardware is required on top of the already demanding hardware requirements. Somehow every other flight sim is able to model the controls to be customized to almost any input device yet BoS is taking a different approach?

I really want this sim to succeed but this seems like a dumb way of doing things.

Good point. I've been flying DCS P51D and Huey and at the default stick settings I could see how a stick extension would be a good thing for both. In this case, all the DCS axis can be tuned independently for each aircraft type. I found that adjusting the S-curves (easily done in the GUI), while not a perfect solution, helped tremendously in operating these aircraft. Perhaps that's a direction BoS could explore.

[LuseKofte]

Oh that is why my yoke is ideal for this sim.

[Hood]

I reckon they'll adjust the joystick settings to allow for pc joysticks.

I recall Eric Brown really dialling down IL2's joystick curves to mimic what he'd feel in a plane with a full length stick.

Hood

[dburne]

I know that BOS had a full length stick, rather than a pc stick, modelled and maybe that's the difference.



I suspect that is why they are so sensitive, I wonder why they would do that though - I would think the vast majority - by far - would not be using a full length stick...

I do hope they eventually compensate for pc joysticks by final release.

[LuseKofte]

Bottom line is, being a part of this and other endless discussions I find myself disagreeing a lot.
Now I know why I find the controls far better in BOS than in CLOD, I find the environment far better in BOS also, only a bit fed up with the snow. I do not find it more cartoonish than CLOD, even if I try hard.
The sim feels entirely different than CLOD, this might be the reason for me finding myself not flying CLOD anymore and just a little bit BOS. I don't know why my experience on this game are so much better than most of the guys here find it. For me it just is, I am now only waiting for something to do with it :ind:
I have enjoyed flying here at ATAG, but to me it has almost comes to an end, I just hope BOS is a new start, if not I probably sell my rig and do something else

[ElGringo]

Bottom line is, being a part of this and other endless discussions I find myself disagreeing a lot.
Now I know why I find the controls far better in BOS than in CLOD, I find the environment far better in BOS also, only a bit fed up with the snow. I do not find it more cartoonish than CLOD, even if I try hard.
The sim feels entirely different than CLOD, this might be the reason for me finding myself not flying CLOD anymore and just a little bit BOS. I don't know why my experience on this game are so much better than most of the guys here find it. For me it just is, I am now only waiting for something to do with it :ind:
I have enjoyed flying here at ATAG, but to me it has almost comes to an end, I just hope BOS is a new start, if not I probably sell my rig and do something else

Farewell...

[ATAG_Lolsav]

Nah, he is just a bit bored, happens to us all. A rest from flying, do something else, then the urge to get back on the plane will be back. This is "leisure" time, only do what gives you pleasure, to give trouble we have work, school, real life, etc.

So lets just have leisure in here :)

[LuseKofte]

Yes you are right, mate. Right now my throttle setup is gone to heaven, it did not survive the move. So fixing it temporarily still make it a bit messy. I tried to start up my plane several times but just abort right away .
It will come back one day, right now I investigate other ways to do the throttle. Make a new pedestal for it, and new buttons. I will most probably get the urge back when this is done

[vranac]

They are picking a lot of flak there at Russian forum because a lot of people realized what will they get at the end.
Loft said that they are looking for a way to make a refund to those that are not satisfied and have locked the diary thread.

One of the posts:


What's the point? These thousands have already bought the game at a price premium versions .. La-5 and fw190 included in the premium package, whom we need something now? Even in the forum, instead of the normal respectful communication, rhetoric in the style of "Eat what's given." But here there was a bummer version and immediately "Dear friends!" and touching stories about the train from RoF. Very nice. But it's all words, poems, and should be judged on actions . The game definitely has good potential, but for some reason it's consciously trimmed. Killed graphics settings, then even without comment. Now we impose simulator busy person (s) departing in MP for 30 minutes. It seems that 99% of people are against it, but someone has rested in the end neither myself nor the people. Beautiful clouds, explosions decent polygons in aircraft models enough .. But too low-resolution textures, looks out the window, you see there is blurred wing of 2000, it is sad. Physics collision of aircraft with the ground ... very sad. In short, in principle, it is clear that we will have in the end ... I bought myself a premium, and brother also because the text on the main page and the high price promised next-gen. But guys converted a free RoF is not next-gen. And I probably would have bought it, but not for three rubles .. Just for comparison: ArmA 3 is worth two. The conclusion is: IL-2 CPB game is good in itself, it is possible to fly and have fun. But I think that will be forced to abandon further funding this developer. Speaking the official language, the quality of service that was offered for the money, it turned out improperly. Anyway, renounce buy early access to the game

Of course there were few others that responded to him but he got 10-20 likes on every post he made.
To clear out that he isn't an amateur he posted this:


Do not want to offtopic, but then God himself commanded. What if I say that I have experience in developing games for 13 years (before that, I worked as a programmer)? When I joined the firm where I work now, there were 30 people, now we have more than 200. With my participation came to release several AAA titles, as well as a year ago released a very successful free game, I have worked together with my brother. Currently we are working on the second part of our game, where I was responsible for 3d art, animation, of course participate in game design, development and integration of game mechanics, and writing our own animation system in C #. Well, now will subscribe to my every word?

[LuseKofte]

Yes and people wonder why we don't get any new flightsim on marked. This site and many other has seen to this result. It sickened me to my stomach what a bunch of whining bastards the majority of flight simmers are for spending a few buck.
How all you fanboys are happy to see the ending of this genre , right in front of your eyes

Do you really believe CLOD got the capability to hold on to simmers the next 10 years. It manage to entertain me for nearly one year.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Please don't take it so much to heart, mate. In the past (pre-Team Fusion) I had so many frustrations with Clod -- Spitfires could barely reach 10 angels before coughing and sputtering! I was reminded that this is indeed only a video game. :salute:

[ElGringo]

Yes and people wonder why we don't get any new flightsim on marked. This site and many other has seen to this result. It sickened me to my stomach what a bunch of whining bastards the majority of flight simmers are for spending a few buck.
How all you fanboys are happy to see the ending of this genre , right in front of your eyes

Do you really believe CLOD got the capability to hold on to simmers the next 10 years. It manage to entertain me for nearly one year.

I' m pretty sure TF can make it live 10 years, with new planes and maps out regularly. That' s what I' m hoping for anyway.

[Hood]

I' m pretty sure TF can make it live 10 years, with new planes and maps out regularly.

No chance or at least not in the form that TF is in now.

My opinion only of course.

Hood

[LuseKofte]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebtKm0GY7cg¨

You are missing the point entirely. CLOD can live 20 years if this genre keep growing, it is now way people in number of importance will stick to this genre without more to offer.
I am not attacking CLOD, far from it. But look at this video. It is crazy not to give this sim chance. Right now it just get its nose above being a sim and not a game. Note the snow tracks behind the tanks, the way the train go off tracks after being hit. This is surly not any more cartoonish than any other sim
With the right move this will increase numbers of simmers, witch eventually will gain CLOD and other sims.
DCS is going to be old news 5 years head until it is equipped with a descant number of aircraft and it is far too complicated as a recruitment sim. All honor for these developers dedication for making authentic AC.
I react on the noise by the community, whenever they spend a few buck they own the right to be abusive and in some cases hateful. Much of it based on politics and not facts.
I am not saying BOS is perfect, but it looks promising. I hope they give the money back, then it might be some peace around the game

[Skoshi_Tiger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebtKm0GY7cg¨

I hope they give the money back, then it might be some peace around the game

Don't bet on it. LOL! :)

You just have to look back at what happened to the COD developers towards the end. As soon as one of the development team apologized for the way things went the haters took it as a sign of weakness and combined with the disenfranchised fanboi's they attacked like a pack of one toothed Chihuahua's on the last dog biscuit in the bowl.

777 has had it EASY so far.

Personally I'm looking forward to seeing what BoS turns into. I don't post much over on the BoS forum because there is a very vocal minority over there that make the site unpleasant by their continual personal attacks on anyone that states their honest opinions.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hell, never mind Team Fusion, 777, or ED for that matter.....I'll be glad if I'm around in 10 years! (Of course, that's just my opinion. :D

:)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hell, never mind Team Fusion, 777, or ED for that matter.....I'll be glad if I'm around in 10 years! (Of course, that's just my opinion.) :D

:)

[Archie]

If the Russian sim community is starting to kick off, then 777 has a problem IMO. Love it or hate it, I can see BoS becoming the ghost town that RoF is within a relatively short space of time, because the devs don't, or won't listen to the concerns of their fans.
Just sayin'

[LuseKofte]

My guess is that is exactly what is going to be the change. There are many issues to solve, but it isn't finished yet. I hope they will listen

[Archie]

No, I have a feeling they won't listen. This makes interesting reading, it seems some people did not know exactly what they were buying in to:
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/page-17

[Continu0]

No chance or at least not in the form that TF is in now.

My opinion only of course.

Hood


LOL to Snapper....

Hood, how do you come to that conclusion...? Do you have inside-informations?

[Bounder!]

Even though I'm not exactly surprised, those answers from Loft are depressing. I knew that BoS was going to more in the realms of an combat game than a flight sim but wow.

[The ghost]

No, I have a feeling they won't listen. This makes interesting reading, it seems some people did not know exactly what they were buying in to:
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/page-17


I just finished reading that thread, as well as the thread discussing it in another part of that forum, from my perspective, I think when you say "some poeple did not know exactly what they were buying into", you are very correct but perhaps the blame for that should be leveled where it belongs, on the users.

There are two major elements at play in that topic that make me say that, the first is that Loft is actually exactly right when he says that nothing about their dialogue has changed since the first dev diary, they have been honest with the audience from day one and never told us that they were going to do things that they were not able to do, that is why there is such strict forum moderation, we flight simmers like to look at every statement made by dev's under a microscope until we can find a way to twist it into saying what we want to hear, they have been very careful to try and avoid that as much as possible.

The second thing is that he has made it clear that we need to adopt a "never say never" approach. He has investors that are putting a lot of pressure on him to deliver a product that will be something of a financial success, Cliffs of Dover left a bad taste in their mouths and rightfully so, it was not a success due to it's condition on release (it is better now, don't misunderstand, I am speaking only of it's state on release and perhaps after some amount of time trying to patch it) and that is enough to give any investor pause.

To add even more pressure, the investors (as Loft indicated) wanted a War thunder, he ended up making a actual simulation, that alone is worth something I think.

Having not spent a lot of time on this forum so far, I spent some time looking at some other threads (both locked and unlocked) and I am afraid that the thread you linked is going to get taken the wrong way here, that it is going to be misguidedly held up as some sort of "victory trophy", I hope that is not the case.

One last thing, I am sorry this is so long but I guess I am feeling wordy this morning :).

Battle of Stalingrad is exactly what it was clearly advertised to be, there are those commenting on that thread you linked who seem to expect it to be something else but in the end, everyone who payed attention to the dev blogs would know exactly what was happening.

Ugh, that was really long, I am sorry.

[Foul Ole Ron]

+1 Ghost

BOS devs were always clear about what the game was going to be. If they deliver a game which has a realistic FM & DM then they'll have delivered what they said they would. I think they still have some work to do but they're on track. Just remains to be seen if they have the time / money to do the additions & tweaks needed to get things right.

[LuseKofte]

LOL to Snapper....

Hood, how do you come to that conclusion...? Do you have inside-informations?

I can give you a answer for this, CLOD is the best to date within its narrow genre. It is narrow and it is only that much to do with it. If you do a server count you find a increase in numbers but very little. Many of these new ones come from WT, but you also see a decrease by the earlier simmers.
Many will come back no and then, but with only one server things goes as it does.
It is no way this will maintain the numbers needed keeping CLOD alive if we don't get other sims to keep interest. When IL 2 got old and microsoft gave up on the genre Combatsims lost about 60 % of its customers.
Maybe more, like it or not, it is needed to get increased WW2 fanboys on general bases to get more interest in CLOD , I was hoping BOS was it. But it is more looked upon as enemies by CLOD communities because of old disputes and politics. Same as it ever was

[vranac]

Sorry. But i realise that here in english part of tje forum you was not informed, and live in the world of dreams. This is truly disaster for me. I think we need to be as honest as possible about what and why we doing. This is why now iam here day by day basis. And may be clod realy the best choice for some pilots here who love clicking knobs and read manuals. Because BOS game about planes and fights and history of course. Every approach, every game must find own audience. 1C invited me to create something different from clod. And now my time and my turn. Sorry for everybody who s expect something else. I was very clear in every diaries i was made.

This is exactly what I was writing here a few times and I tried to change that by translating some devs posts here. And some people just continued their mantra ," It's only xx%, it's alpha .....".

LuseKofte, I don't need a new flight sim with textures from 2000. Old il2 supports hi-res textures. I don't need DM from WT and shooting down aeroplanes from 800m.

[ATAG_Septic]

Hi LuseKofte,

I have some sympathy with your frustrations but would like to speak up about the generalisation of communities here. There are many here who do not become involved in partisan arguments about BoS. The divide you perceive is perhaps informed by an atmosphere created by the more vocal few. If this place is to be judged as a whole please remember about the less vocal and perhaps more moderate majority.

Speaking for myself, I'm skeptical, based on my experience with RoF, but I would still much prefer BoS to succeed.

I, and I suspect many others here would like to see the whole combat-flight-Sim genre prosper and I can't see how a failed BoS would help that cause.

Sadly Skeptic Septic.




But it is more looked upon as enemies by CLOD communities because of old disputes and politics. Same as it ever was

[The ghost]

This is exactly what I was writing here a few times and I tried to change that by translating some devs posts here. And some people just continued their mantra ," It's only xx%, it's alpha .....".

LuseKofte, I don't need a new flight sim with textures from 2000. Old il2 supports hi-res textures. I don't need DM from WT and shooting down aeroplanes from 800m.

As I said before, I have spent some time going through this specific subforum to catch up and you have been saying this for a long while now, I gotta ask though, why are you still on this subforum?

I don't want to make this sound like I am being a fanboi or something, it is just that you have clearly made up your mind about some things and while I could probably dispute some of them (or at least the language you have chosen to describe them), I guess I just don't understand what keeps you in this subforum when you clearly would rather play Cliffs of Dover.

Again, I am asking as a genuine question.


Hi LuseKofte,

I have some sympathy with your frustrations but would like to speak up about the generalisation of communities here. There are many here who do not become involved in partisan arguments about BoS. The divide you perceive is perhaps informed by an atmosphere created by the more vocal few. If this place is to be judged as a whole please remember about the less vocal and perhaps more moderate majority.

Speaking for myself, I'm skeptical, based on my experience with RoF, but I would still much prefer BoS to succeed.

I, and I suspect many others here would like to see the whole combat-flight-Sim genre prosper and I can't see how a failed BoS would help that cause.

Sadly Skeptic Septic.


I think you are absolutely 100% correct here, after reading through this subforum, it feels like there is a very, very, very vocal minority that want to keep the fight going (whatever fight that really is in the long run), the tricky part is that some of them are moderators, I am not going to name names as that will probably create a problem but it is difficult to know what one is allowed to say around here, this is a subforum for Battle of Stalingrad and many (but not all, just to be clear) of the threads here seem to all end up the same way and with the same usernames involved.

Can you think of anything that could be done by this community (or ATAG internally) that could possibly make posting on this subforum less about walking on eggshells and more about actual discussion (with less hyperbole, on both sides)?

[LuseKofte]

This is exactly what I was writing here a few times and I tried to change that by translating some devs posts here. And some people just continued their mantra ," It's only xx%, it's alpha .....".

LuseKofte, I don't need a new flight sim with textures from 2000. Old il2 supports hi-res textures. I don't need DM from WT and shooting down aeroplanes from 800m.

Fact is you know shit, you never tried it, you have from day one worked actively against it . I fly more BOS than I do CLOD now and flown a little WT also. What you say is bullshit.
If I don't like a game I ignore it, but you are obviously not

And Septic , I am sorry. I did a general assumption I know isn't true. You ATAG people have made a good home for dedicated simmers , witch I have great respect for. I know you guys make a important effort keeping this genre alive

[Chuck_Owl]

Gentlemen, guys... try to keep it civil, please.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Fact is you know shit, you never tried it, you have from day one worked actively against it . I fly more BOS than I do CLOD now and flown a little WT also. What you say is bullshit.
If I don't like a game I ignore it, but you are obviously not

And Septic , I am sorry. I did a general assumption I know isn't true. You ATAG people have made a good home for dedicated simmers , witch I have great respect for. I know you guys make a important effort keeping this genre alive

@the_ghost: This is the kind of stuff that is not permitted on this forum. This is what's called a personal attack on another forum member. This is what gets threads closed here. Basically, when this kind of stuff erupts, it's my call as a moderator to declare the thread "is going south".

This kind of stuff used to happen all the time over at the banana forum. It doesn't happen here. At least, not for long. If anyone feels comfortable attacking others here, then yes, they should feel like they're walking on eggshells.

This thread is closed.