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vranac
May-05-2014, 19:11
Why Blues have 109E4N's here fighting against Spit Ia 100 oct when 109E4 outperforms SpitIIa on any altitude ?

9./JG52 Ziegler
May-06-2014, 08:38
Why Blues have 109E4N's here fighting against Spit Ia 100 oct when 109E4 outperforms SpitIIa on any altitude ?

Paleeeeease Vranic! We (9./JG52) flew Spits on Sunday to practice for the upcoming campaign and were stunned at the ease in which we got kills on against 109's! It was a joke at how easy it was to outmanuver them and this was a squad of dedicated 109 pilots, several of whom were flying them for the first time. I must say it was very "enlightening" experiance as we lit up several 109's a piece. The only thing the 109's could do was to dive away and run a little faster. In this patch, I never knew how easy you guys had it till now! :) Those spits are Mighty!

vranac
May-06-2014, 09:11
Will you be able to show me that 1 vs 1 map, short distance, no running away from a fight, you can take Spit IIa ?
We can post video later.

Karkara
May-06-2014, 10:55
Vranac.
I hope very much to see this video.
I also think they run the fights.

9./JG52 Ziegler
May-06-2014, 13:31
Will you be able to show me that 1 vs 1 map, short distance, no running away from a fight, you can take Spit IIa ?
We can post video later.

Oh we all know what a virtual Ace (and all round tough guy) you are. See you in the chat trying to taunt people to little avail. Handbags at dawn? :)


Vranac.
I hope very much to see this video.
I also think they run the fights.

Of course they run if they have any sense about staying alive. You don't seem to understand the difference between an energy fighter and turn fighter. Energy fighter is not designed for dogfighting and any prolonged dogfighting with it is at best a 50/50 proposition which for me is not good enough odds.

Foul Ole Ron
May-06-2014, 14:48
We (9./JG52) flew Spits on Sunday to practice for the upcoming campaign and were stunned at the ease in which we got kills on against 109's! It was a joke at how easy it was to outmanuver them and this was a squad of dedicated 109 pilots, several of whom were flying them for the first time.

Those guys who flew 109s only previously would've flown the Spit in the same way I'm betting. Fly any plane on ATAG like you should fly a 109 and you'll be successful as there's often low flying enemy around. Give yourself an initial energy advantage in a Spit and you'll out energy or angle fight almost any one of those low flying 109s fairly easily.

vranac
May-06-2014, 14:53
You just made some statements which I find not true at all. I suggested a very easy way for you to prove them.
If it's so easy for you why don't you show that to me and the others.

So in a 109 I will have no altitude advantage in the first merge and I will not extend and runaway.

9./JG52 Ziegler
May-06-2014, 14:56
Those guys who flew 109s only previously would've flown the Spit in the same way I'm betting. Fly any plane on ATAG like you should fly a 109 and you'll be successful as there's often low flying enemy around. Give yourself an initial energy advantage in a Spit and you'll out energy or angle fight almost any one of those low flying 109s fairly easily.

That's absolutely correct Ron and exactly what we did (use it as an energy fighter) and if you got in trouble, just start turning. :thumbsup::salute:

9./JG52 Ziegler
May-06-2014, 15:49
You just made some statements which I find not true at all. I suggested a very easy way for you to prove them.
If it's so easy for you why don't you show that to me and the others.

So in a 109 I will have no altitude advantage in the first merge and I will not extend and runaway.

9478 Sorry that you don't find the statements true but I don't find that your 1 on 1 proves anything except that you think you're your a better pilot. In my case I'm sure your right. Doesn't prove anything but that Ace. You whining about an E4n in the map versus the Spit Ia 100 oct is unbecoming a pilot of your obvious stature. It's only a semi historical map after all the emphasis on "semi".

What I said was that my squad practiced in spitfires (the first time for many of us) and found them very easy to fly and score in. I stand by my statement and you'll have your chance in the upcoming campaign (just like all the others we've flown) to test us since we are currently flying Red due to lower signup numbers at the moment on that side.

vranac
May-06-2014, 16:21
No Ziegler, if I wanted to prove that we would be flying the same aeroplane. I just wanted to show you that 109E4 outperforms SpitIIa even in a dogfight without any advantage that 109 pilots usually use.

And I can agree with you that Spitfire is easier to fly but when you are fighting a pilot with similar skill and E chances are something 20:80 for a Spit pilot.
In a 109E4N you can make many mistakes and just leave a fight.

And that pic is funny but I fly all aeroplanes and I miss the old Dunkirk map made by Bliss with g50's on it.

kaliber
May-06-2014, 17:01
I'd love to know the reason it's been removed or not added to any of the maps in rotation except for one. It seems strange to me that the maps have all the blue planes included including several variations of each plane and yet the reds get the short end of the stick. And please I don't want a blue only flyer trying to convince me the a1 is sooo much better than what they get to choose from. Seems pretty one sided and I don't want to make accusations but the reasons I've heard sound like blue fliers and map makers excuses for a slight advantage.


Again I'm not saying this is the case but after retuning to play on atag after maybe almost a year or so of not playing it seems like the blues got a bunch of new planes E4b as an example but my favorite and best red (imo) plane is suddenly taken away from all missions save one. It's seems weird to me and I haven't heard any real good reason why this is the case. (it's only semi historical missions, doesn't really cut it for me as a valid reason).

LuseKofte
May-06-2014, 17:15
Well, in this game the 109 flown by a dedicated skilled pilot and some wing buddies . Lets say 9/JG52 they actually can decide how and where to fight. If they spot the enemy. You need a working Radar and pilots to understand what that radar tells you for getting a historical result. Because the hun in the sun was very often a Spit in the sun and a very surprised hun.
If this was the case you could beat these fine flyers. I find it as a bomber pilot very satisfying surviving against the odds more than win by the odds

ATAG_Colander
May-06-2014, 17:18
I'd love to know the reason it's been removed or not added to any of the maps in rotation except for one.

The missions have not been updated, that's all. No conspiracy theories involved.

9./JG52 Ziegler
May-06-2014, 17:30
The missions in the rotation are currently very competitive with both sides winning the maps and many times, maps ending in draws. That speaks for itself. The "Band of Blennie" boys and their escorts are formidible adversaries and have turned the tide on many a map of late.

vranac
May-06-2014, 17:47
Kaliber, a few years ago till 1.05 official patch actually there was a really strong Spit IIa in the sim. It was fast and climbing very well.
But even then 109 had some advantages that you could use, better roll and ability to hang on a prop much longer.

That myth about "superior" Spit IIa just continued even if there is no any reason for that now.

kaliber
May-06-2014, 18:40
The missions have not been updated, that's all. No conspiracy theories involved.


Which is why I tried to word it diplomatically. I'm not wearing a tin foil hat but you must admit from an new/returning players perspective it seems odd that blue has more choices to choose from whereas red had one taken away or not added whatever the case may be, not to mention it's the best red high alt performer. It looks a little weird without any real explanation so thank you. Any Idea when they may be updated?

DUI
May-06-2014, 18:58
I never fly the E-4N versions on any map and I do not even know if and where they are available. But as far as I read from Gruber's reply in the Hellfire Corner thread (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7392&p=117478&viewfull=1#post117478) there are no E-4N but only E-4N "derated" available. And this only on one single, destructable blue airfield - and even with a limited amount of 8 planes simultaneously.

Come on, so much talk and even conspiracy theories about the derated-version that to my understanding is a slightly better performing E-4?

Incog
May-06-2014, 19:40
I think any fighter who has an energy advantage / better positioning has the advantage.

The 109 still has better dive / energy characteristics, correct?

No.54 Ghost (KL-G)
May-06-2014, 19:57
i love the old 109 vs spit debate. there will always be a lot of interesting info in these threads.
but as been stated before it really comes down to the pilot in most cases. ive been attacked by high altitude 109´s with and without patience. the latter usually end´s up in the channel.
but when you come up against a 109 pilot with not only skill but also patience you have to bring your "A game".
loose sight of him, and you are most likely dead.
you will also have to be patience since to many mistake on your end will result in you bailing out in best cases.
you have to realize you are on the defense in that situation. you will not be able to go on the offensive until he makes a mistake or reinforcement arrives. both planes have there advantages and disadvantages.
these are a few of them.

spitfire:

better turn rate
better view
easy to handle

BF 109:

better climb rate
higher dive speed
better roll rate
better fire power
faster

when ever you use your plane in a way that lets your enemy gain the advantage you put your self at risk.
trying to outmaneuver a spit in a low level dogfight is one of those risks.
trying to go into a steep climb after a 109 is another one of those risks.
so which is the better plane? well on paper i would say the 109. in reality/sim? most likely the one with the most skilled and patient pilot.

ATAG_EvangelusE
May-06-2014, 19:59
Firstly, the Spit1a 100 oct is my first choice even if the 11a was more widely available. However, I do think it's a shame that the work and effort TF put into getting the FM optimised (for all the ac currently flyable in CloD) should end up with some being largely relegated to SP.

I have no objection to giving players a wider choice in more missions and, as already pointed out, are only 'semi historical' and very rarely played as true historical .

Anything that can be done to encourage more players to try high alt escort/combat is a positive step and to see just how well TF's FM efforts translate in MP against player opponents not SP AI.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
May-06-2014, 23:32
Here are the facts:

The Bf109E-4N, (actually very first versions were E-3 with the N engine, which is not modeled in the game) appeared approx. 1.5 - 2 months ahead of the Spitfire IIA.

So it should be available in early BoB scenarios when the Spit IIA wasn't.

However, from the limited amount of information available, I personally would believe it is quite likely the version which appeared first was 'De-Rated', ie. only 1.35ata was allowed. The full WEP power version wasn't likely available till sometime in mid-September or October. At all times throughout the period July-October, AFAIK there was only one Gruppe, (III/JG26) using the aircraft. That would mean a maximum of 40 Bf-109E-4N aircraft in the sky at any one time, out of the approx. 700 Bf-109's flying.

To be historical, it would probably be best to have the De-Rated version available from July-September, the full power version after that.

Regarding the Spitfire IIA. It didn't appear till the last week of August, and only one Squadron, (12 pilots up at any one time,) was active.

In mid-September additional Spit IIA Squadrons began to arrive, till by the end of October there were 7 Squadrons active. This out of some 60 RAF Fighter Squadrons available.

So whether we are talking the E-4N or the Spit IIA, it is very clear these planes were a definite minority of the aircraft available on either side.

Most of the combat was between the E-1/E-3/E-4 and the Hurricane I (Rotol 100 octane) which was about 55-60% of the British total and the Spitfire IA (100 octane) 40-45% (depending on the date). The Bf110 was also a significant proportion of the German fighter force... being some approx. 200-250 aircraft out of the 1000 total German fighters available.

VO101_Kurfurst
May-07-2014, 03:03
Buzzsaw pretty much nailed it.

In addition, I don't quite see the thing between the Mark I and Mark II. In a BoB configuration, there was practically nothing to choose from between them in performance, if anything, the Mk I was better when running 100 octane, since the emergency boost was usable only for a very limited altitude on the Mark II. The only advantage of the latter is very very marginally better performance at altitude.

9./JG52 Ziegler
May-08-2014, 09:51
I never fly the E-4N versions on any map and I do not even know if and where they are available. But as far as I read from Gruber's reply in the Hellfire Corner thread (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7392&p=117478&viewfull=1#post117478) there are no E-4N but only E-4N "derated" available. And this only on one single, destructable blue airfield - and even with a limited amount of 8 planes simultaneously.

Come on, so much talk and even conspiracy theories about the derated-version that to my understanding is a slightly better performing E-4?

+1 Dui, I never use E4N either. 3's and 4's pretty much exclusively. N's always seemed to be more "tender" in the engine dept and had more overheat/overrev problems for my taste. Just never felt reliable enough?

Chuck_Owl
May-08-2014, 18:20
The missions in the rotation are currently very competitive with both sides winning the maps and many times, maps ending in draws. That speaks for itself. The "Band of Blennie" boys and their escorts are formidible adversaries and have turned the tide on many a map of late.

The "Band of Blennie" boys? Didn't know the blues actually noticed us that much... or that we had a nickname for that matter. I'll take it as a compliment. :D

DUI
May-08-2014, 19:00
@Chuck_Owl: Even your propaganda channel (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10439) is forbidden to us blue, there might be some who dared to listen to and watch some of your movies. Just for intelligence reasons to get an idea where you hit next time, of course...

And even without your movies I would never forget the first time when some squadron mates and me ran into one of your missions: some weeks ago you and some fighter escort were flying mid-Channel, at the deck to Calais. Was the first time that I saw so many red bombers flying together.

AKA_Recon
May-08-2014, 20:47
The "Band of Blennie" boys? Didn't know the blues actually noticed us that much... or that we had a nickname for that matter. I'll take it as a compliment. :D

:thumbsup:

9./JG52 Ziegler
May-09-2014, 13:32
The "Band of Blennie" boys? Didn't know the blues actually noticed us that much... or that we had a nickname for that matter. I'll take it as a compliment. :D

Like Dui said, we were not used to coordinated raids from the red side. I think it's great stuff and good to see it happening in server one. You guys fly to try and do your part to win the map and that is the tact that our squad takes in deciding our missions. It's great practice for the campaigns.:thumbsup:

Broodwich
May-10-2014, 20:06
Here are the facts:
Most of the combat was between the E-1/E-3/E-4 and the Hurricane I (Rotol 100 octane) which was about 55-60% of the British total and the Spitfire IA (100 octane) 40-45% (depending on the date).

Red pilots tend to forget this part. Out of 50 some people on a team there might be 3 hurricanes at best, but its usually all spits

AKA_Knutsac
May-10-2014, 23:23
Red pilots tend to forget this part. Out of 50 some people on a team there might be 3 hurricanes at best, but its usually all spits

And Blue pilots tend to forget the part about their not having radar.

Robo.
May-11-2014, 05:37
Red pilots tend to forget this part. Out of 50 some people on a team there might be 3 hurricanes at best, but its usually all spits

We all tend to forget that the ATAG missions have very little to do with the historical BoB - it's just a nice big scale DF server where everyone can have some fun. We do have some bombers sometimes, we do have some odd 110 or a Hurricane here and there, but majority of players will be in E-4s and Spitfires in a furball on the deck, with very few planes yo be seen above 3.5 km. You can not force people to fly the plane XY so why pretend this has anything to do with the history? With the server being half full, you will see good 50% of Luftwaffe fighters sporting the E-4/N and 90% of the RAF flying the Spit. So why bother and why not allow every plane on the map with no limits at all.

Broodwich
May-11-2014, 17:45
?
The point was why rarer planes are unlimited.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
May-11-2014, 19:03
?
The point was why rarer planes are unlimited.

It's up to mission builders to restrict the number of aircraft.

This is not Team Fusion's responsibility.

As has been mentioned many times... Team Fusion is not the same as ATAG. We do not run their server or any other server which hosts CoD. :salute:

No.64_Johnny
May-12-2014, 17:42
Well all I think is the E4N should not be in the sim anyway. It has a rediculous climb rate. I know the 109 did outclimb the spitfire at certain altitudes but surely it cant climb like that in reality?? What we should do is add a Spitfire Vb and a 109 F2 and then it would even things up

GERMANWOLF
May-12-2014, 17:54
all spits are easy for me to overthrow

9./JG52 Ziegler
May-12-2014, 17:57
Well all I think is the E4N should not be in the sim anyway. It has a rediculous climb rate. I know the 109 did outclimb the spitfire at certain altitudes but surely it cant climb like that in reality?? What we should do is add a Spitfire Vb and a 109 F2 and then it would even things up

At the end of the day it's a video game Johnny and there are many things we see in the game that didn't and in fact couldn't happen in reality. Not without consequences that is. Lately I have seen Spits cartwheeling through the sky after stalling it, only to recover and fly merrily away and all we can do is laugh as he does it again and then again. I promise you that in reality something would have been broken. This occurs on both sides in several scenerios because, it's only a video game! :salute: To much "reality" is missing but they (Designers/TF guys) strive to make as good as they can with what is available and it's a good bit of fun for us.

Mruk
May-18-2014, 18:27
Are there any charts showing speed vs. altitude and climb rate vs. altitude for E4N and SpitIIA available? (after patch 4.3.1)

gavagai
May-26-2014, 21:40
Red pilots tend to forget this part. Out of 50 some people on a team there might be 3 hurricanes at best, but its usually all spits

In the TF splash screens Spitfires are victorious, while Hurricanes go down in flames.

Mruk
Jun-04-2014, 09:43
Anyone knows max speed at sea level E4N vs. IIa?

No.401_Speed (YO-R)
Jun-04-2014, 19:10
post deleted

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Jun-04-2014, 19:59
All I can add gents is that the significant performance edge enjoyed by the 109 is resulting in a serious loss of interest in flying against them. An average 109 pilot who simply learns how to boom and zoom will win every time. The only slim advantage had by the Spitfire was it's turn rate and now that's gone. Unless you gang bang a 109 with two or more, it's no longer a match worth entering. The fun factor is simply fading away.

This is not whining on the part of a disgruntled pilot, simply trying to relay what othera may be experiencing and choosing to walk away. CoD is an amazing sim and worth a bit more effort. If the FM is accurate, then I'll shut up and take up fishing.

Not the case... the Spitfires are more than competitive if flown correctly.

A Spitfire will outturn a 109 in all instances where both aircraft start at similar altitudes and energy. And the Spit will still retain a significant edge even if the 109 has an energy advantage. Only if the Spitfire is damaged or has completely blown its energy and the pilot has pulled it into too slow speed a turn will the 109 be able to match the turn rate.

The Spit IA 100 octane at altitudes under 10,000 ft will out accelerate the 109E-1/E-3/E-4's at low speeds and stay with them in a climb. It is as fast as all these types at sea level.

If you are having problems with a 109 booming and zooming you, then don't stay around, better to make sure you have enough altitude that you can meet him on even terms... or if he is higher, dive away. :salute:

ATAG_Colander
Jun-04-2014, 20:05
As a 109 pilot I can tell you that the only way I will engage a spit is if I have a lot of E advantage. Any other case, the 109 is doomed.

In other words, yes, the 109 tactic is and should be BnZ but no, it takes more than a few hours playing to master it and not fall into errors like trying to turn with a spit.
My guess is that there are not many 109 pilots that "have only a few hours" left in the servers :D

9./JG52_Meyer
Jun-05-2014, 05:43
All I can add gents is that the significant performance edge enjoyed by the 109 is resulting in a serious loss of interest in flying against them. An average 109 pilot who simply learns how to boom and zoom will win every time. The only slim advantage had by the Spitfire was it's turn rate and now that's gone. Unless you gang bang a 109 with two or more, it's no longer a match worth entering. The fun factor is simply fading away.

This is not whining on the part of a disgruntled pilot, simply trying to relay what othera may be experiencing and choosing to walk away. CoD is an amazing sim and worth a bit more effort. If the FM is accurate, then I'll shut up and take up fishing.

I beleive there are a lot of lakes in Canada :thumbsup:

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jun-05-2014, 05:47
All I can add gents is that the significant performance edge enjoyed by the 109 is resulting in a serious loss of interest in flying against them. An average 109 pilot who simply learns how to boom and zoom will win every time. The only slim advantage had by the Spitfire was it's turn rate and now that's gone. Unless you gang bang a 109 with two or more, it's no longer a match worth entering. The fun factor is simply fading away.

This is not whining on the part of a disgruntled pilot, simply trying to relay what othera may be experiencing and choosing to walk away. CoD is an amazing sim and worth a bit more effort. If the FM is accurate, then I'll shut up and take up fishing.

This is interesting, but I must say I cannot agree. I'm hearing of 109 pilots talking about flying less for the same reasons (109s not being powerfull enough etc...) ! If both sides complain, maybe things are OK?

I'm personally pushing for re-introduction of the E4/N across the maps. The performance margin is so much closer than it used to be. I believe there is a place for the E4/N (or at LEAST the E4/N de-rated) to be included online.

Robo.
Jun-05-2014, 06:45
All I can add gents is that the significant performance edge enjoyed by the 109 is resulting in a serious loss of interest in flying against them. An average 109 pilot who simply learns how to boom and zoom will win every time. The only slim advantage had by the Spitfire was it's turn rate and now that's gone. Unless you gang bang a 109 with two or more, it's no longer a match worth entering. The fun factor is simply fading away.

This is not whining on the part of a disgruntled pilot, simply trying to relay what othera may be experiencing and choosing to walk away. CoD is an amazing sim and worth a bit more effort. If the FM is accurate, then I'll shut up and take up fishing.

It takes lots of skill, discipline and experience to master the 109.

Average 109 pilot you describe can and will be outflown by excellent RAF pilot in a Spitfire or even Hurricane. There are, luckily, plenty of great pilots on both sides.

gavagai
Jun-05-2014, 07:56
Energy fighting is not what an average pilot does. By definition it marks a virtual pilot as experienced. What might give the appearance of it being "average" is that it does not require better reflexes or complicated maneuvering for success, but that overlooks the challenge of how much more difficult energy fighting is conceptually. In a Spitfire, your average pilot points his lift vector at his enemy and turns, and he'll have some successes. In a 109 he'll be shot down repeatedly until he gives up on those intuitive maneuvers and gives primary importance to relative energy states (kinetic + potential).

It's one thing to say you'll walk away because you have good evidence that some FMs are inaccurate. It's another to say you'll walk away because if they are accurate you don't like the result. Asymmetrical aircraft matchups are the norm in air combat history, right?

vranac
Jun-05-2014, 07:58
I'm personally pushing for re-introduction of the E4/N across the maps. The performance margin is so much closer than it used to be. I believe there is a place for the E4/N (or at LEAST the E4/N de-rated) to be included online.

You are very wrong with this Phil. Lets meet up online and I'll show you what you can do with it. Even if I tried it two times after the new patch.
I can turn with you ( horizontally) and then I'll just go away up or extend without any problem. You can stall it and run away after that.

109E4 is more than enough to fight SpitIIa if you are familiar with it. I'm fighting them on AX all the time and I'm not talking about newcomers. You can leave the fight any time you want.
Even if bounced with another enemy with more E there are tricks to make him bleed some E and than you can extend. And then you can attack again when you make enough distance.

9./JG52 Ziegler
Jun-05-2014, 08:23
Not the case... the Spitfires are more than competitive if flown correctly.

A Spitfire will outturn a 109 in all instances where both aircraft start at similar altitudes and energy. And the Spit will still retain a significant edge even if the 109 has an energy advantage. Only if the Spitfire is damaged or has completely blown its energy and the pilot has pulled it into too slow speed a turn will the 109 be able to match the turn rate.

The Spit IA 100 octane at altitudes under 10,000 ft will out accelerate the 109E-1/E-3/E-4's at low speeds and stay with them in a climb. It is as fast as all these types at sea level.

If you are having problems with a 109 booming and zooming you, then don't stay around, better to make sure you have enough altitude that you can meet him on even terms... or if he is higher, dive away. :salute:

+1 in total agreement. I've been flying a Spit in the ATAG campaign this time and can atest to Buzz's comments. Properly flown the Spitfire is a mighty ride.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jun-05-2014, 08:36
Lets meet up online and I'll show you what you can do with it. e.

yes, a good idea!
I'm always happy to do some experiments in a controlled environment.

ATAG_Endless
Jun-05-2014, 16:17
This is interesting, but I must say I cannot agree. I'm hearing of 109 pilots talking about flying less for the same reasons (109s not being powerfull enough etc...) ! If both sides complain, maybe things are OK?

I'm personally pushing for re-introduction of the E4/N across the maps. The performance margin is so much closer than it used to be. I believe there is a place for the E4/N (or at LEAST the E4/N de-rated) to be included online.

I agree with phil I too have heard 109 pilots say they are struggling with the 109 and in saying that I have had to change my flying style and be extremely diligent in the way I fly

But to say the 109 is overpowered I disagree hell the other night I chased down and shot two E 4N's in a spit 1a if the 109 has a energy advantage of course it's going to extend away and get separation every time

Gromit
Jun-05-2014, 16:42
Well I have caught and knocked down E4N's in a Hurricane, but all that tells me is the guy didn't know how to get the best out of it!

ATAG_Endless
Jun-05-2014, 17:21
Yea but the point was is if the 109 was overpowered there would have been no way for me to have climbed with it and get a solution

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Jun-05-2014, 17:23
I regularly fly the Hurricane Rotol 100 octane, a plane with is much slower and poorer climbing than either the Spit IA 100 octane or Spit IIA, and I regularly shoot down E-4Ns, but that only happens when three situations and all require me to have more energy or potential energy:

1) I place myself tactically at a +1000 meter altitude advantage over the E-4N so I have the energy/alt advantage, and the E-4N pilot has less than 1000 meters under him so he can't dive away and outrun me even if he sees me coming.

2) E-4N pilot isn't paying attention and I surprise him in a dive from higher altitude. (my dive temporarily allows me to sustain higher than his level flight speed)

3) E-4N is on the deck maneuvering at low speed and I enter with an energy/alt advantage of +500 meters. (this is most common way E-4N's die)

In pretty much any other situation an E-4N pilot who sees me is in absolutely no danger, he can simply fly away, dive away, or outclimb me.

Players need to remember that ANY given fighter aircraft in the game accelerates in a dive much faster than any other given fighter aircraft accelerates in level flight.

I often wander over to the French coast in a Hurricane at 23,000 ft.... (as Gromit said in another thread... just under contrail height makes you less visible, but at the same time anyone over you will immediately be visible by their contrails)

If I can't find a single German heading out from a Blue field towards England in a low speed climb who I can bounce, or if there are two many 109's climbing up below me... I just put my nose down gently... and dive away towards the English coast... My aircraft's dive speed will take me out of danger.

-Place yourself in a tactically advantageous position
-Keep a sharp lookout around you... don't allow yourself to fly underneath enemy aircraft
-Make your attack quickly... get out.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Jun-05-2014, 17:30
I'll add another couple points:

-Get on Comms...

I don't know how many times I've seen a Spitfire or Hurricane blithly motoring along without a care in the world, as a 109 knifes down from above them... and calls on comms for "Spitfire off the coast of Dover, Break!" go completely unheeded and another insta-pilot kill happens.

Get on comms... ATAG Teamspeak has a great bunch of guys who will help you out and save your sorry noob a$$ many times.

-Fly with a wingman...

Get on ATAG. There are plenty of guys who will fly wing with you... I am happy to fly wing with anyone... even with Noobs... I love to maneuver my pair such that the new guy I am flying with gets his first bounce and kill... no greater satisfaction than hearing him bubble over with enthusiasm and excitement. :thumbsup:

Broodwich
Jun-05-2014, 23:49
This is interesting, but I must say I cannot agree. I'm hearing of 109 pilots talking about flying less for the same reasons (109s not being powerfull enough etc...) ! If both sides complain, maybe things are OK?

Both sides will complain even when one has the clear advantage. Some think they are the best and its never their fault. Such it has been, such it shall be forever *points to sig*

I wouldn't read too much into it

9./JG52 Reinhart
Jun-06-2014, 00:05
Eh... E4/N isn't my cup of tea. I'd rather take something fair that I'm always familiar with than a more advanced version. Plus people get too used to the luxury of it having a really good climb rate.

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Jun-06-2014, 01:02
-Place yourself in a tactically advantageous position
-Keep a sharp lookout around you... don't allow yourself to fly underneath enemy aircraft
-Make your attack quickly... get out.

This is an excellent check-list for engagement.
I'd hazard a guess that at least half the playing community does not heed this but follows this instead;

1. spawn near the front lines
2. fly direct to the most likely combat area
3. vector straight at the first dot they see

Vlerkies
Jun-09-2014, 06:00
You are very wrong with this Phil. Lets meet up online and I'll show you what you can do with it. Even if I tried it two times after the new patch.
I can turn with you ( horizontally) and then I'll just go away up or extend without any problem. You can stall it and run away after that.
.


yes, a good idea!
I'm always happy to do some experiments in a controlled environment.
Has this little duel demo at dawn taken place yet?

I would love to see a 109 endlessly sustain horizontal turns with a Spit or a Hurri without falling out of the sky.

And when you do demonstrate it, please enlighten us on how you managed to do it, that would be appreciated.

vranac
Jun-09-2014, 06:09
Has this little duel demo at dawn taken place yet?

I would love to see a 109 endlessly sustain horizontal turns with a Spit or a Hurri without falling out of the sky.

And when you do demonstrate it, please enlighten us on how you managed to do it, that would be appreciated.

Not yet,but we will for sure.

Read carefully, I never said you can out turn Spit. What I said is you can make 2-3 turns loosing all your E and then just leave.
Ask Osprey, we tried it, he was on SpitIIa me on 109E4N.

Vlerkies
Jun-09-2014, 07:06
Oh I get it now, sry misread.

So you and Phil are essentially saying the same thing then? That the E4N is faster/more powerful, but just to differing degrees really?

dziki
Jan-30-2018, 12:28
We all tend to forget that the ATAG missions have very little to do with the historical BoB - it's just a nice big scale DF server where everyone can have some fun. We do have some bombers sometimes, we do have some odd 110 or a Hurricane here and there, but majority of players will be in E-4s and Spitfires in a furball on the deck, with very few planes yo be seen above 3.5 km. You can not force people to fly the plane XY so why pretend this has anything to do with the history? With the server being half full, you will see good 50% of Luftwaffe fighters sporting the E-4/N and 90% of the RAF flying the Spit. So why bother and why not allow every plane on the map with no limits at all.

My opinion is opposite.
IMO treating ATAG server as simply DF server is not correct.
I think most of us, want to have most historical feelings, in playing CloD, as could be.
This also applies to plane-set in missions.

As was mentioned before , in BoB, Bf 109 E4/N was used only in ~5% (40/700) of all 109's.
At ATAG server Bf 109 E4/N is present in ~75% of maps (I counted only 2 maps without 109 E4/N).
As for me, Bf 109 E4/N and Spit IIa should be available only in maps from November 1940 (Raiders map).

dziki :salute: