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View Full Version : bf110 rear mg15 buged or spitfire hitbox problem ?



Brennus54
May-07-2014, 07:09
Hi atag team and others.
First, sorry for my english i am from the Molière country
I very often fly the bf110, ever with my gunner, HISTERIK, who very efficiently defend our plane.
But there is a problem we want to talk to you.
The fact is when we flyout after have droped our bombs at an objective, one or several spitfires follow us, he fly on our six, come closer and closer very very slowly (we fly around 430-440km/h when we come back to homebase).
My gunner shoot him, sometimes 4, 5 or even 6 magazines in his nose (short and precise burst), he hit him much (we hear the sound effect and see instant visual effect of bullet impact) and i have to say it, HISTERIK is probably the most skilled gunner i ever met in CoD.
The spitfire don't even try to evade the bullets, he shoot us when he is at 50m from our plane and this is the end.. whereas he was hit during 3 minutes by the rear mg15.... !?!?!?
In much record we have done we don't see any damages decals on the spitfire, never.
However, in much occasion, but not always, several minutes or maybe 20 minutes later we read in the sricpt window that HISTERIK have shot down spitfire piloted by 'xxx'.
I have to say that this problem occur frequently with spitfires I and always with spitfires IIa.
We know when we hit oil or water radiator, it occurs when HISTERIK shoot next the 'karman', then we see the precious liquid fall down.
The idea is there is maybe, we think, a problem with the nose hitbox or several spitfire models because when my gunner shot at him, the spitfire can be hit at his radiators but never his engine, and never the pilot.
In my opinion, and there is the case for il2 1946 or il2Bos, the helix can be damaged, the engine too,and the pilot.
The fact is that spitfire pilots, engines and Helix are immunised from the bullets comming from the front !

It seems this problem occurs always with spitfire IIa, but i'm not sure with other models.
This problem seems not occurs with any kind of Hurricane.
It seems that the rear mg15 of ju88 work really better.
So, is it an eventual mg15 bug on several planes? a problem of spitfire Hitbox? i'm sure that many of yours have had this problem.
ps: Beobachtung mg15 magazines doesn't have any effet (we have made many test)
ps: we actually use spitzgeshochz mit kern ammo

Thx for attention !

DUI
May-07-2014, 07:39
Interesting read, thanks for sharing your experiences.


ps: Beobachtung mg15 magazines doesn't have any effet (we have made many test)
ps: we actually use spitzgeshochz mit kern ammo

As far as I know Beobachtungsmunition is not meant to inflict damage. It only indicates with its flash that you are hitting your target. I think in average you need hundreds of bullets to get an enemy plane down.
Personally, I would also try Spitzgeschoss mit Kern Hart - this AP round should be able to penetrate the engine block easier.

JG4_sKylon
May-07-2014, 07:55
Interesting read, thanks for sharing your experiences.



As far as I know Beobachtungsmunition is not meant to inflict damage. It only indicates with its flash that you are hitting your target. I think in average you need hundreds of bullets to get an enemy plane down.
Personally, I would also try Spitzgeschoss mit Kern Hart - this AP round should be able to penetrate the engine block easier.

There is no more SMK-Hart-Geschoss. Though it is still listed in the ammunition Screen, TF has taken it out of the available ammo since 4.3
You get "normal" SMK ammo when selecting SMK-Hart.

Karaya
May-07-2014, 08:40
A short description of 7.92x57mm ammunition:

SmK = armor piercing steel core bullet, best penetration of currently available rounds

SmK Hart = armor piercing tungsten carbide core bullet (has been removed due to historical reasons)

PmK = steel cored bullet with phosphorous (=incendiary) component, less penetration than SmK but makes up for it due to its incendiary nature

B = observation round that explodes on impact in a bright flash, has no penetration at all and does minimal damage to aircraft. Absolutely useless as the other rounds give ample feedback on hits!

Übung = training round that explodes after a certain amount of time, has mediocre penetration, inferior incendiary property compared to PmK, mostly useless!

I prefer mixing my MG17s with a 1:1 mix of SmK & PmK rounds, works well enough for me...

9./JG52 Hans Gruber
May-07-2014, 09:34
There is no more SMK-Hart-Geschoss. Though it is still listed in the ammunition Screen, TF has taken it out of the available ammo since 4.3
You get "normal" SMK ammo when selecting SMK-Hart.

Wait....what? This can't be true, can it? It's effectiveness was greatly reduced but it is not the same as normal SMK.I don't use hart at all anymore as SMK was better in testing.

Catseye
May-07-2014, 10:39
Wait....what? This can't be true, can it? It's effectiveness was greatly reduced but it is not the same as normal SMK.I don't use hart at all anymore as SMK was better in testing.

I can confirm that it is true.

It is the same as the SMK round now. No Tungsten.

Cats . . .

Brennus54
May-10-2014, 11:55
Hey,
The last server update which show inflicted damage will be useful to be sure there is any hitbox problem or bf110 mg15 problem ! thx a lot ;)

trademe900
May-10-2014, 17:32
Next time I see you on I would like to try testing this with hurricane and spitfire flying behind you. Personally I have had great success with 110 rear gunning and I have downed many planes in my seat time. However there have been some occasions where what you say here comes to mind. Perhaps it is related to dispersion properties.

Brennus54
May-12-2014, 07:03
With pleasure trademe.
However It seems you live at the other side of the earth, whereas I live in Europe.
I hope we will be available soon to test this.
One precision: I have no doubt about the hurricane hitbox, but only about spitfire IIa and maybe spitfire I. Because these planes dont even try to avoid bullets.., as if Saint-Michel was coming from the sky to fight my 110..
What Is you steam id ?

trademe900
May-12-2014, 11:48
EG14_trademe900

It will definitely be interesting to test. I am travelling right now and do not have a computer but I'm sure I will see you around on a weekend soon after I fly back home.

Brennus54
May-24-2014, 07:40
Back to this post.
We have made some test and we can tell you that:

Spitfire mkIa_100oct engine hitbox seems to work correctly:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2014/21/1400930716-2014-05-21-00002.jpg
The pilot trademe 900 have been wounded during the test. ;)
Strangely, the fire of one of the the spit's fuel tank doesn't kill him.

Hurricane mkIa_100oct engine hitbox seems to work correctly:
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2014/21/1400930718-2014-05-21-00003.jpg

However this damages have been caused by a skilled human gunner (HISTERIK) who was charge to use the rear mg15 of the bf110 during the test. Damage the spit required 7-8 magazines, which means 500-600 bullets...
Damage the hurri required 4-5 magazines.

Note that the rear gunner can only fire 8 magazines
He used SMK ammo

We surely try the spitfireIIa hitbox soon.

ZG15_robtek
May-24-2014, 11:34
As I've been reading here i saw mentioned that the 'Beobachtungsmunition' has lost it's effectiveness and I wonder why.
I just read about the 7.92x57 ammo and in this pdf : http://www.waffen-welt.de/bilder/DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf (regretfully in german)
at topic 10.6 it is said that while that ammunition was designed to indicate the hit point, it was also used for other things.
Especially it was used to set fire to planes and cars/trucks and it was in high demand by sharpshooters as the Russian sharpshooters used the similar 'ZP' ammo.

Flugber.
May-26-2014, 10:00
A short description of 7.92x57mm ammunition:

SmK = armor piercing steel core bullet, best penetration of currently available rounds

SmK Hart = armor piercing tungsten carbide core bullet (has been removed due to historical reasons)

PmK = steel cored bullet with phosphorous (=incendiary) component, less penetration than SmK but makes up for it due to its incendiary nature

In fact, P.m.K. classified by the Germans as armor-piercing/incendiary with steel core (incendiary composition – white phosphorus):

9821


As I've been reading here i saw mentioned that the 'Beobachtungsmunition' has lost it's effectiveness and I wonder why.
I just read about the 7.92x57 ammo and in this pdf : http://www.waffen-welt.de/bilder/DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf (regretfully in german)
at topic 10.6 it is said that while that ammunition was designed to indicate the hit point, it was also used for other things.
Especially it was used to set fire to planes and cars/trucks and it was in high demand by sharpshooters as the Russian sharpshooters used the similar 'ZP' ammo.
That's right, actually German Beobachtungspatrone and British "Observer, O, .303 Cordite Mk.I" – it was Explosive (Explosive/Incendiary) ammunition. Actually, as Soviet 'PZ' (in Russian transcription – ПЗ: where "П" – Пристрелочный {Observing}, and "З" – Зажигательный {Incendiary}). They had an explosive charge, mixed with incendiary composition.

This name they had because they were prohibited by the Hague Convention for use in hostilities, and therefore, it was emphasized that these cartridges were allegedly intended only for the training of fire, that is, for the zeroing in weapons.

In fact, it is known that during the war they were actively use almost ALL the warring parties, but after the war ended, the problems at the Nuremberg Trials were only in Germany – because of the application of these munitions at Stalingrad.

In the game, these munitions are not implemented correctly.

Flugber.
Jun-10-2014, 14:25

That's right, actually German Beobachtungspatrone and British "Observer, O, .303 Cordite Mk.I" – it was Explosive (Explosive/Incendiary) ammunition... They had an explosive charge, mixed with incendiary composition.

This name they had because they were prohibited by the Hague Convention for use in hostilities, and therefore, it was emphasized that these cartridges were allegedly intended only for the training of fire, that is, for the zeroing in weapons.

In the game, these munitions are not implemented correctly.
Not to be unfounded, I will bring a page from the "Munitionsvorschrift für Fliegerbordwaffen. Teil 10: Handbuch der Munition für Fliegerschußwaffen; Juni 1944":

10088

I guess filling of a bullets labeled as "P-Füllung" – is incendiary composition: Phosphorus (white).

Probably and British 'Observer, O, .303" Cordite Mk.I' also had a similar composition.