View Full Version : Where's my MG/FF 20mm?
GrafZorn
May-22-2014, 14:55
Gentlemen.
Zorn means anger or wrath and believe me, i'm exceptionally angry. Name is business, atm.
After reading another thread where some people discussed to tweak the 109's Pilot's G Force capabilities i finaly decided to make my own ... discussion.
When 4.3 came out i felt everything was right, Flightmodel, Damagemodel, Graphics.... and i was greatly satisfied that the 20mm MG/FF in my opinion (and many others) was finaly accurate in terms of dealing damage to a vehicle build of aluminium, a bit of steel and wood - flying through the air! Also MG17 became awesome - Remember this Übungsmunition/Zerleger? ...oh dear - good times!
- But then --- the amount of Pilotkills on the Red side raised surpassing. Forum was exploding.
We all know what happened: Hotfix 4.321
Not only that the "issue" with the Sprenggranate 20mm was "fixed" (Though i feel the whole 20mm-Ammo was degraded or the Tankfires and Hurritanks got their armorplates back)-
also Übungsmuniton/Zerleger 7,92mm became totaly useless!! Now, why is that?
An example:
Imagine you sit in your car. Maybe an old one. And someone fire's 2 explosive 20mm shell's of any kind -Splitter/Sprengbrand/Mine whatever- right on your roof. Do you honestly expect to survive that?
You shoot a Boar with a 20mm explosive shell, it disintegrates!!! Nothing left but red dust!
Did it happen for "balancing"? While everyone yearns after Historically accurate - blablabla?
I am sick. Sick of putting 4-6 20mm into a Red Airframe, thinking: "Jesus - he must be dead!" - only to see him fly away like nothing happened.
I'm speaking not only for myself, but for all those Blue Pilots out there who calmly accepted every single disfavour coming up in all these patches caused by the stamina of moaning red Pilots.
I want my "historiacally accurate" ammo back - and my Übungsmunition working again.
Additional: After 10 years of flying online, 3 years CloD i feel ashamed of the way a lot of people use to fly this game nowadays.
70 years ago the Men in these Machines felt terrible fears, died horrifying deaths and only they had one goal: To land and survive the Day.
What you experience now on ATAG, which is the most frequented and recommended server for this game, is nothing but Battlefield 4 or Call of Duty for Flightsimmers.
Of course it is a game... but... you know - only to get the kill. I can respawn. Wheres the Honor? Where are the Salutes? Wheres the will to come home again? Bet 20% of Pilots aren't even able to land their Plane safely. Nevermind.
Friendly reminder: I want my accurate Ammo back!
Thank you, Gentlemen.
92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
May-22-2014, 15:18
you are most welcome to re-install 4.3 and fly that version of the game.
It is BS like this that makes me seriously consider not bothering to help improve this game at all for ungrateful people such as yourself.
ATAG_Septic
May-22-2014, 15:49
Grafzorn,
"...I am sick. Sick of putting 4-6 20mm into a Red Airframe".
Might I suggest you desist then?
Septic.
Hi and welcome to the forums. I am sorry to hear you're frustrated and feel like there is blue or red colour involved in any of these patches. There was an issue with HE munition caused by a simple typing error and this error has been rectified. There is no black magic or conspiracy involved. I suggest you try to fly any of the RAF fighters you claim to be tanks and get shot at by 20mm munition to see the effect from the other perspective.
As for online flying, people are people, they will fly as it suits them, some will indeed see this game as some kind of air quake. Nothing to do with TF I am afraid. People will also always complain (no matter what TF does) as you simply can not please everyone. Some people will even complain about other people complaining too much :D
Hope that helped, good luck online. :thumbsup:
ATAG_Snapper
May-22-2014, 16:08
GrafZorn, your concerns are noted. I leave that for Team Fusion to address, should they wish.
As moderator, I will advise you that coming onto this forum with a rant such as yours -- especially as your first post -- is not the best thing to do here. Should you wish to continue this, or any, discussion on this forum, I suggest you temper your tone considerably. Please do not test me on this aspect.
Thank you,
Snapper
RAF74_Buzzsaw
May-22-2014, 16:10
Oh good, just what we need... :glaughter:
A loudmouth with a big sense of entitlement, who is unhappy about his lack of success, so he decides to vent. :cussing:
No proof, no videos, just a real ignorance of the facts. :td2:
Anyone who bothers to read the forums would understand TF 4.3 was bugged. The effects of all HE rounds was mistakenly set far too high due to a misplaced decimal point in the global weapons file... hence the incredibly effective MG/FF 20mm. (and the AAA)
I would recommend you learn how to fly and shoot. Anyone with the basic skills can shoot down or kill all of the British aircraft with the MG/FF in TF 4.312.
Either that, or go back to WAR THUNDER. :wave:
ATAG_Endless
May-22-2014, 16:16
Here comes the beating of the dead horse again
Well everyone wants pilot kills but the reality is STOP TRYING TO KILL THE PILOT !!!!!!!!
Aim for the engine ,control surfaces , oil system , radiator .
I only fly blue and I have had no issues in shooting planes down with the occasional pk
If you want BF4 or Call of duty style game play then go back to the last patch because shooting wildly in a dogfight and getting 4 or 5 pk's in one sortie takes no skill .
At the moment with the new hotfix I feel that this is the most balanced it has been in a long time
And there are allot of blue pilots who have no issues shooting down enemy planes with the occasional pk and trust me if you are positive the enemy plane will fly off uneffected after receiving 5-6 cannon rounds try flying red and see what happens
I'm sorry but your post seems to be a whinge about not getting enough pk's because your ammo isn't on steroids Pk'S are earned not given
GrafZorn , I have more than 3000 h in this sim flying both sides and G50s also and I can tell you DM here is faaaar away from any other sim.
Hitboxes are so small like supercharger, engine cylinder , MG, MG ammo .....
If you want something else go to War Thunder or BoS :devilish:
AKA_Knutsac
May-22-2014, 18:16
"Imagine you sit in your car. Maybe an old one. And someone fire's 2 explosive 20mm shell's of any kind -Splitter/Sprengbrand/Mine whatever- right on your roof. Do you honestly expect to survive that?
You shoot a Boar with a 20mm explosive shell, it disintegrates!!! Nothing left but red dust!"
Whaa! Whaa! Plenty of real life anecdotes of Spits and Hurris getting hit with 20mm rounds and the pilots flying home, but I can assure you in game a good 20mm hit will red-screen or black-screen a pilot. And just how many boars have you shot with a 20mm?
GunnyMac
May-22-2014, 18:27
A gift horse is a horse that was a gift, quite simply. When given a horse, it would be bad manners to inspect the horse's mouth to see if it has bad teeth. This can be applied as an analogy to any gift: Don't inspect it to make sure it matches some standard you have, just be grateful!
Combat Wombat
May-22-2014, 19:19
Are you sure your hitting the target :P sorry couldn't resist
Maybe he should install patch 4.69 with flying tanks. Blue side gets the flying Tiger. :recon:
ATAG_Endless
May-23-2014, 00:03
maybe he should install patch 4.69 with flying tanks. Blue side gets the flying tiger. :recon:
weeeeeeeeeeee
9744
Vlerkies
May-23-2014, 02:56
Welcome GrafZorn
Might I present you with this, you are going to need it
9745
Oh, and just fly the E1 for 2 reasons, it has no canon so eliminates that disappointment, and its much more satisfying shooting down the 'brylcreem brigade' in their shiny Spitfires in a lil 'ol E1 ;)
:salute:
Welcome GrafZornOh, and just fly the E1 for 2 reasons, it has no canon so eliminates that disappointment,
Disappointment of shooting wings and things off? :goofy E-1
Vlerkies
May-23-2014, 03:52
Disappointment of shooting wings and things off? :goofy E-1
The man is clearly having a frothy over his (perceived) nerfed cannon ammo for his E3/4 :), all I am suggesting is he fly an E1 where there is no canon so he cant be disappointed about how useless he thinks the canon ammo is.
Real men fly E1's :getaway:
:)
Real men fly E1's :getaway:
:)
Real men fly Hurricanes :-P And the real manly men fly 110s or bombers.
GrafZorn
May-25-2014, 10:46
Hohoho - quick reaction, written in anger leads to indignation! Bugger it! :doh:
My apologies for the chosen language - and i agree, the 20mm ammo is modeled accurate. :salute:
But still I'm wondering what has happened to the Übungsmunition/Zerleger, couldn't find anything about it in the readme (4.3 & 4.312)?
Greetings
ATAG_Snapper
May-25-2014, 11:34
All's forgiven! :)
Just for the record, everything is up for discussion. To get anything like this considered or reevaluated by Team Fusion requires some back up -- videos, tracks, recognized documentation, etc etc. I've seen many times TF go the extra mile to either prove or debunk a concern or misconception in the pursuit of historical accuracy to the limit the Clod software permits.
I hope someone from TF can answer your question on the U-Z. :salute:
Hohoho - quick reaction, written in anger leads to indignation! Bugger it! :doh:
My apologies for the chosen language - and i agree, the 20mm ammo is modeled accurate. :salute:
But still I'm wondering what has happened to the Übungsmunition/Zerleger, couldn't find anything about it in the readme (4.3 & 4.312)?
Greetings
Stig1207
May-27-2014, 11:58
I've been wondering a bit about these 3 examples I've observed the last couple of weeks. Is it the damage from the cannon rounds that is underwhelming or perhaps the visual hit effects are somewhat over done? Only one of these Spitfires went down, the one in the first clip made another attack on the bomber and lost a wing colliding with it's tail.
Video removed as it has no relevance on the discussion about 20mm effectiveness. The effects are overdone once the trk. has been edited in the 'External view utilty'
5th_Tot
May-27-2014, 16:38
its interesting how most of the people here try to talk his point down. havent read a qualified answer yet, like 0.303 is simulated with a impact on the wing of certain size and the 20mm therefore should be like 20mm, the HE 20mm should take a piece out like 5 sq ft. id like to know what difference is there between the certain amo in the game...
heres a MK 108 i know its 30 mm but the spit in the track above got hit by ten 20 mm :crazyeyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk
ATAG_Colander
May-27-2014, 17:03
The question is how much damage does around 6 grams of HE in the Minengeschoss can cause when exploding inside a wing that is mostly a big area of empty space?
My guess is not as much as can be thought as the pressure from the explosion will have all the space in the wing to expand and loose energy before affecting the wing skin.
Now, if that same shell hits a spar and explodes embedded in it, the damage will be a lot higher.
5th_Tot
May-27-2014, 17:53
The question is how much damage does around 6 grams of HE in the Minengeschoss can cause when exploding inside a wing that is mostly a big area of empty space?
My guess is not as much as can be thought as the pressure from the explosion will have all the space in the wing to expand and loose energy before affecting the wing skin.
Now, if that same shell hits a spar and explodes embedded in it, the damage will be a lot higher.
check the youtube vid about the 30 mm it takes 1/4 of the wing several 20mm should barely keep it flying
ATAG_Colander
May-27-2014, 18:15
check the youtube vid about the 30 mm it takes 1/4 of the wing several 20mm should barely keep it flying
30mm is not 20mm
RAF74_Buzzsaw
May-27-2014, 18:32
check the youtube vid about the 30 mm it takes 1/4 of the wing several 20mm should barely keep it flying
There is a huge difference between the power of a 30mm round and a 20mm.
It is not just a question of 1/3 increase in value... the amount of explosive carried and weight of the 30mm is far more.
Please look at this following page for an analysis of WWII aircraft armament by Anthony Williams the well known expert and published author.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
For reference the 20mm 'Minen' round used by the MG/FFM is the "20 X 80RB" and the 30mm round used by the MG108 is the "30 X 90RB"
Williams has rated the effectiveness, ('power') of these rounds at 14 for the MG/FFM and 58 for the Mk108. In effect the power of the 30mm is more than 4 times that of the 20mm. This is going to be accentuated by the fact the 20mm will need several rounds to burst in the same area to do serious damage... if they are scattered about... much less effect. Only one 30mm is required.
The values incorporated into the game were arrived at after very careful consideration... are they perfect...? This is a simulation, not real life. Are the values close? Yes.
Anyone who is having problems shooting down British aircraft with the German 20mm weapons needs to work on his gunnery skills. :salute:
ATAG_Snapper
May-27-2014, 18:41
One thing that comes to mind regarding wing strength in Spitfires and Hurricanes are the Browning machine guns themselves. These are heavy chunks of ordnance steel that are solidly bolted into each wing -- four of them on each side. We frequently take weapon damage, as expected, to the firing mechanism which prevents some/all from firing. But surely there must be a buttress effect within each wing to help withstand the effects of 20 mm from a wing structural view.
5th_Tot
May-27-2014, 18:44
i said so allready... but you did not read...(that wing is on the deck no wind no nothing and most important not lodaded)
back to the game and the 20mm HE and those tons of hits with no considerable damage
what do you now about the 20mm HE in the game?? it had 3,7 grams of explosive!?
Anyone who is having problems shooting down British aircraft with the German 20mm weapons needs to work on his gunnery skills. :salute:
+ 100
What do you expect, air to air missile ?
Watch the guncams guys , you'll not see wings and tails fall off and that is pretty common here if you shoot well.
5th_Tot
May-27-2014, 18:56
Please look at this following page for an analysis of WWII aircraft armament by Anthony Williams the well known expert and published author.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
For reference the 20mm 'Minen' round used by the MG/FFM is the "20 X 80RB" and the 30mm round used by the MG108 is the "30 X 90RB"
:salute:
thanks for the charts but thats not the game. it would be nice if anyone who KNOWS can tell about how its simulated.
ATAG_Snapper
May-27-2014, 19:00
thanks for the charts but thats not the game. it would be nice if anyone who KNOWS can tell about how its simulated.
5th_Tot, I hope you find your answer to your question. As moderator, I will ask you to be more respectful in how you interact with other forum members.
Thank you,
Snapper
RAF74_Buzzsaw
May-27-2014, 19:19
The weapons simulation in the game takes into account the following:
1) Muzzle velocity (meters per second velocity at the moment round departs muzzle)
2) Weight of the round (muzzle velocity plus round weight equals kinetic energy at the moment of impact)
3) Weight of the explosive charge (chemical or explosive energy)
4) Round metallurgic composition (ie. what the metallurgy of the round is, which translates into hardness of the metal and ability to penetrate)
5) Rate of fire
6) Dispersion (effect of vibration due to movement of the mounting during firing and flight on the accuracy of the round)
7) Gravitational effect (ie. speed at which the object falls towards the earth's center after leaving the muzzle)
8) Drag effects (rate at which the velocity of the round decays)
9) Type of explosive used in the round (ie. nitro cellulose, tnt, etc. each rated for their explosive power)
All of the game weapons are based on the real life weapons.
I would recommend anyone who is so completely unsatisfied with the way the weapons currently function create their own mod.
This is my last comment in this thread. :salute:
Edit
Forgot to mention:
10) Weight of the complete cartridge is also modeled, (in addition to the weight of the fired round) so the aircraft weight can be adjusted down as cartridges are used
11) Weapon jamming is not modeled, although no doubt it could be if we wanted, and may be incorporated in later TF mods. (the wingmount MG/FF was prone to jamming when fired in other than level flight, especially when fired in high G situations as for example, high G turns to allow deflection firing. In contrast, the Browning .303 and MG17 were not prone to jamming in these situations)
12) Round fusing... ie. how many seconds after an HE round is fired the fuse will cause the round to explode.
ATAG_Colander
May-27-2014, 19:51
Edit:
Nevermind.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
May-27-2014, 20:30
Editing my last post to add parameters I missed including.
ATAG_Bliss
May-28-2014, 00:08
The weapons simulation in the game takes into account the following:
1) Muzzle velocity (meters per second velocity at the moment round departs muzzle)
2) Weight of the round (muzzle velocity plus round weight equals kinetic energy at the moment of impact)
3) Weight of the explosive charge (chemical or explosive energy)
4) Round metallurgic composition (ie. what the metallurgy of the round is, which translates into hardness of the metal and ability to penetrate)
5) Rate of fire
6) Dispersion (effect of vibration due to movement of the mounting during firing and flight on the accuracy of the round)
7) Gravitational effect (ie. speed at which the object falls towards the earth's center after leaving the muzzle)
8) Drag effects (rate at which the velocity of the round decays)
9) Type of explosive used in the round (ie. nitro cellulose, tnt, etc. each rated for their explosive power)
All of the game weapons are based on the real life weapons.
I would recommend anyone who is so completely unsatisfied with the way the weapons currently function create their own mod.
This is my last comment in this thread. :salute:
Edit
Forgot to mention:
10) Weight of the complete cartridge is also modeled, (in addition to the weight of the fired round) so the aircraft weight can be adjusted down as cartridges are used
11) Weapon jamming is not modeled, although no doubt it could be if we wanted, and may be incorporated in later TF mods. (the wingmount MG/FF was prone to jamming when fired in other than level flight, especially when fired in high G situations as for example, high G turns to allow deflection firing. In contrast, the Browning .303 and MG17 were not prone to jamming in these situations)
12) Round fusing... ie. how many seconds after an HE round is fired the fuse will cause the round to explode.
It's always mind boggling the amount of detail that went in to building this sim. To have all those parameters modeled for a type of ammunition is crazy. It's really amazing the game runs at all with all those complexities and detail for realism.
Oh, and I want a laser weapon mounted on my 109 :D
RAF74_Buzzsaw
May-28-2014, 01:33
It's always mind boggling the amount of detail that went in to building this sim. To have all those parameters modeled for a type of ammunition is crazy. It's really amazing the game runs at all with all those complexities and detail for realism.
Oh, and I want a laser weapon mounted on my 109 :D
I'll break my promise just this once... for fun.
Re. your laser... No problem... in fact I've got something better... there is a anti matter weapon modeled... for testing it can be used in comparison with the regular weapons. :D
[RAM_Mk_I]
// Recoilless Antimatter Mortar Mk. I
types Gun
GunClass Aircraft
WeaponType BULLET_HEAVY
BulletClass DetailedAerodynamic
Specification Action SemiAutomatic Fixation Static Dispersion 0.0 deg RateOfFire 60 per minute Reserve 10 Clip 10 ReloadTime 22 sec ActiveRange 300 m to 12000 m Mass 34 kg BarrelBore 50 mm
FSound Bob/Weapons/Antimatter_Cannon
// 0 =
Bullet SmallAntimatterCartridgeMkIcon
[SmallAntimatterCartridgeMkIcon]
types Bullet
Cartridge Mass 1.0 kg
Projectile Type HighExplosive Mass 1.0 g Bore 0.000001 mm FormFactor 0.001 MuzzleVelocity 900 ms LifeSpan 10.5 to 10.6 sec Fuse Timeout Payload Antimatter 1.6E-6 g of AntimatterCharge
Tracer Color Pink FXPath $core/3do/SFX/Tracer/Antimatter_0.eff
If you ever wondered, pre-Team Fusion and our secure patches, why the original game had some players whose weapons seemed to do quite a bit more than the usual damage...? The haxx which could be done with the non-secure original game were simple cut and paste. :grrr:
Here is the current list of explosive effects modeled and which could be used... although obviously some are not. We can also add new effects quite easily... simply look at the physics of the particular substance.
// Concussion --- ôóãàñíûé
// Fragmentation --- îñêîëî÷íûé
// Thermal --- çàæèãàòåëüíûé
// HollowCharge --- êóìóëÿòèâíûé
// Electromagnetic --- ýëåêòðîìàãíèòíûé
// Antimatter --- ðåàêöèÿ àííèãèëÿöèè
// Nuclear --- ÿäåðíûé
// òèïû Â.Â. áûâàþò:
// TNT --- òðèíèòðîòîëóîë (òðîòèë)
// Amatol --- àììîòîë
// AmmoniumNitrate --- íèòðàò àììîíèÿ
// ANFO --- ÀÑÄÒ
// BlackPowder --- äûìíûé ïîðîõ
// C4 --- C4
// CompositionB --- ãåêñîãåí-òðîòèëîâàÿ ñìåñü
// HMX --- îêòîãåí
// Nitroglycerin --- íèòðîãëèöåðèí
// NuclearCharge --- ýêâèâàëåíòíûé òåðìîÿäåðíûé çàðÿä
// Octanitrocubane --- îêòàíèòðîêóáàí
// PETN --- ïåíòàýðèòðèòòåòðàíèòðàò
// RDX --- ãåêñîãåí
// Semtex --- ñåìòåêñ
// Tetryl --- òåòðèë
// Tetrytol --- òåòðèòîë (òåòðèë/òðîòèë)
// AntimatterCharge --- àíòèâåùåñòâî
// Phosphor --- ôîñôîð
// Gasoline --- áåíçèí
You can actually try the antimatter gun (and other silly guns) on Su 26. It is quite epic. If you can hit anything with it.
Anyway on topic i suggest to all those crying about poor 20 mm effectivity to get in hurri or spit and try to get shot. Most of the time few hits mean that you are pretty much done and if you want wings falling off on fe cannon hits try IL2 1946.
AKA_Knutsac
May-28-2014, 07:22
Wow, thanks for that last post Buzzsaw, I had no idea how easy it once was to hack the code. May explain why some previously phenomenal pilots (one in specific who had quite a fan base) are no longer found on the server...their hacks were negated. Hurray for TF!!!
~S~
AKA Knutsac
Bear Pilot
May-28-2014, 09:07
Wow, thanks for that last post Buzzsaw, I had no idea how easy it once was to hack the code. May explain why some previously phenomenal pilots (one in specific who had quite a fan base) are no longer found on the server...their hacks were negated. Hurray for TF!!!
+1
That does explain a few pilots that seemed to be remarkably better than anyone else.
ATAG_Bliss
May-28-2014, 09:23
I'll break my promise just this once... for fun.
Re. your laser... No problem... in fact I've got something better... there is a anti matter weapon modeled... for testing it can be used in comparison with the regular weapons. :D
// Concussion --- ôóãàñíûé
// Fragmentation --- îñêîëî÷íûé
// Thermal --- çàæèãàòåëüíûé
// HollowCharge --- êóìóëÿòèâíûé
// Electromagnetic --- ýëåêòðîìàãíèòíûé
// Antimatter --- ðåàêöèÿ àííèãèëÿöèè
// Nuclear --- ÿäåðíûé
// òèïû Â.Â. áûâàþò:
// TNT --- òðèíèòðîòîëóîë (òðîòèë)
// Amatol --- àììîòîë
// AmmoniumNitrate --- íèòðàò àììîíèÿ
// ANFO --- ÀÑÄÒ
// BlackPowder --- äûìíûé ïîðîõ
// C4 --- C4
// CompositionB --- ãåêñîãåí-òðîòèëîâàÿ ñìåñü
// HMX --- îêòîãåí
// Nitroglycerin --- íèòðîãëèöåðèí
// NuclearCharge --- ýêâèâàëåíòíûé òåðìîÿäåðíûé çàðÿä
// Octanitrocubane --- îêòàíèòðîêóáàí
// PETN --- ïåíòàýðèòðèòòåòðàíèòðàò
// RDX --- ãåêñîãåí
// Semtex --- ñåìòåêñ
// Tetryl --- òåòðèë
// Tetrytol --- òåòðèòîë (òåòðèë/òðîòèë)
// AntimatterCharge --- àíòèâåùåñòâî
// Phosphor --- ôîñôîð
// Gasoline --- áåíçèí
So you're telling me I could have NuclearCharged cannons? :D
It doesn't surprise me they have all those types of explosives sitting there ready to use. I remember seeing the code for every star constellation that could be seen from Earth's orbit somewhere in the code. To say they were anal about having everything is an understatement. Such a shame it was killed off.
ZG15_robtek
May-28-2014, 09:30
I've seen the video from stg1207 yesterday and the many, many 20mm hits the targets absorbed without showing much effect.
The numbers presented for the ammo are showing that the ammo seems to be correctly modeled.
Where is the explanation for the discrepancy that the LW deemed a few 20mm hits fatal for a fighter and the missing effects on the targets in the video?
The difference of a 20mm hit from a MG FF and a MG 151/20 shouldn't be so big as to be the explanation.
Wow, thanks for that last post Buzzsaw, I had no idea how easy it once was to hack the code. May explain why some previously phenomenal pilots (one in specific who had quite a fan base) are no longer found on the server...their hacks were negated. Hurray for TF!!!
~S~
AKA Knutsac
This is just ridiculous. That "previously phenomenal" pilot is just flying other sim. You can watch his videos on YT. Maybe he hacked BoS also.
He just have good SA and he is an excellent shooter. Nothing more.
I don't really know him , a few chats on server after a fight.
I know another guy who was called cheater and then he won the Russian official government sponsored championship "The wings of victory" in il2.
16 finalists were flying in the same room in controlled environment and the price was 2-3000$.
Stig1207
May-28-2014, 12:15
Just for the record, I wasn't complaining, but just wondering at the seeming lack of damage compared to the rather spectacular visual hit effects. Sorry if I have stirred up a hornet's nest, that wasn't the intention. I am also ready to accept my (lack of) prowess in the gunnery department as a viable explanation. However, having studied the tracks more closely, is does seem that many of the rounds that appear to hit are actually exploding in the air around the target. Again, it could just me or maybe the track showing something different than what is actually happening, Anyway here's a couple of quick vids to show what I mean. In the 2nd vid the fireworks start about 0.
Videos removed as they have no relevance on the discussion about 20mm effectiveness. The effects are overdone once the trk. has been edited in the 'External view utilty'
Mattias
May-28-2014, 12:25
Just for the record, I wasn't complaining, but just wondering at the seeming lack of damage compared to the rather spectacular visual hit effects. Sorry if I have stirred up a hornet's nest, that wasn't the intention. I am also ready to accept my (lack of) prowess in the gunnery department as a viable explanation. However, having studied the tracks more closely, is does seem that many of the rounds that appear to hit are actually exploding in the air around the target. Again, it could just me or maybe the track showing something different than what is actually happening, Anyway here's a couple of quick vids to show what I mean. In the 2nd vid the fireworks start about 0.35.
:salute: Stig,
are those vids from ATAG?
The hit SFX can be messed up when using the "ATAG External views enabler", making MG hits appear as cannon hits etc. So what appears to be a Spit surviving a massive cannon barrage might in fact be just (or mostly) MG hits, explaining the lack of more visual damage :thumbsup:
Cheers/m
ATAG_Colander
May-28-2014, 12:33
This is what a 20mm cannon shell does (AND the pilot survived):
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7318&d=1391618764
Mattias
May-28-2014, 12:52
This is what a 20mm cannon shell does (AND the pilot survived):
Yep :thumbsup:
But had the shell ended up one meter more to the front I doubt that picture would have been possible to take :recon:
5th_Tot
May-28-2014, 13:39
This is what a 20mm cannon shell does (AND the pilot survived):
exactly... and having several of them hit your wing means that the liftvector of that wing instantly gets shorter what causes the planes lift vector to move away from the gravity center. if your lucky you can trim but mostlikely you have to work against it with the stick. that lowers the manoverability. the lack of speed due to the massive drag of the opened wingsurface does its part also... next thing is you cant load that wing like an intact one... so your basicly fighting your plane to stay in the air... theres now way you loop around for some other attacks but unfortunately its possible...
Stig1207
May-28-2014, 13:44
:salute: Stig,
are those vids from ATAG?
The hit SFX can be messed up when using the "ATAG External views enabler", making MG hits appear as cannon hits etc. So what appears to be a Spit surviving a massive cannon barrage might in fact be just (or mostly) MG hits, explaining the lack of more visual damage :thumbsup:
Cheers/m
Yes, from ATAG. Your's could very well be the explanation that nails it.:salute:
ATAG_Colander
May-28-2014, 13:47
theres now way you loop around for some other attacks but unfortunately its possible...
I'm not so sure that is correct. Let me explain...
The cannons don't have a high rate of fire. Add to that the big shake they produce and you end up with only a few shells actually hitting the wing.
Now, lets assume 2 or 3 hits created 2 or 3 holes in the wing like the one in the picture. Yes, it will reduce lift AND increase drag. This is modeled in the game now.
From my experience in the game, after I've hit a spit or a hurricane with a few shells, that plane is basically out of the fight and running for home (I do not tend to follow them to the deck so they mostly land).
With those holes in the wing, they do loose speed and lift but, depending on the amount of damage, they will still be able to turn with you (they had better turn rate before so now they are equalized).
In short, don't expect to hit a plane with 2 shells and see it fall out of the sky unless is hit in the right spot (i.e. Engine, control cables etc).
No.54 Ghost (KL-G)
May-28-2014, 13:56
Just for the record, I wasn't complaining, but just wondering at the seeming lack of damage compared to the rather spectacular visual hit effects. Sorry if I have stirred up a hornet's nest, that wasn't the intention. I am also ready to accept my (lack of) prowess in the gunnery department as a viable explanation. However, having studied the tracks more closely, is does seem that many of the rounds that appear to hit are actually exploding in the air around the target. Again, it could just me or maybe the track showing something different than what is actually happening, Anyway here's a couple of quick vids to show what I mean. In the 2nd vid the fireworks start about 0.35.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h6HC5Z3tuI&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-ESdTp2wCs&feature=youtu.be
the first video im almost certain contains a lot of MG hits since the fireworks comes in such rapid succession. he is probably pretty damaged after that i would assume. there should be a lot of bullet holes for sure in that plane but that has to do with the visuals which im not familiar with at all. ask TF.
in the second video you, (or who ever it is shooting) could have saved your ammo. his engine sounds like it will give up at any time.
Stig1207
May-28-2014, 14:52
the first video im almost certain contains a lot of MG hits since the fireworks comes in such rapid succession. he is probably pretty damaged after that i would assume. there should be a lot of bullet holes for sure in that plane but that has to do with the visuals which im not familiar with at all. ask TF.
in the second video you, (or who ever it is shooting) could have saved your ammo. his engine sounds like it will give up at any time.
Yes, it's actually like Mathias explained, After being edited in the 'External view utility' you get the 'Hollywood' version of what happened, at least as far as the hit effects goes. :doh:
As to the one with the engine damage, I couldn't hear his engine running rough from inside my cockpit:salute:
No.54 Ghost (KL-G)
May-28-2014, 16:10
you what? that never occurred to me hahaha :doh:
but it goes to show that even if you dont see any damage doesn't mean there are none.
No.54 Ghost (KL-G)
May-28-2014, 16:10
you know what? that never occurred to me hahaha :doh:
but it goes to show that even if you dont see any damage doesn't mean there are none.
Problem lies in ignorance of reality!
People who have no idea what a real 20mm can do think they should blow planes to bits, reality is it's the fragments that do the real damage, in the gun camera video's from WW2 the planes that are hit may be intact, but , just as in this game, they have suffered fragment damage which put them out of the fight or result in the pilot bailing out later, the planes still a write off, gamers however want to see planes disintegrate and lose wings and tails left right and center, which is fantasy and a legacy of the idiotic damage models of other games!
ATAG_Colander
May-29-2014, 10:26
True but there's an inherent problem with the damage and the fact that this is a game.
In real life pilots don't stay fighting when they receive damage, instead they run home to save their life. In the game some pilots stay fighting no matter what damage they take.
I think this is the underlying reason for the "lack of damage" comments but there's not much TF can do about that.
Continu0
May-29-2014, 10:38
but there's not much TF can do about that.
TF should not do anything about that. It`s rather the game mode, that should change... Imagine what happens if you only could lose 1 plane per evening or so...
You can see the change that happens in the SoW and hopefully ATAG campaigns, and I really like them for that...
92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
May-29-2014, 11:39
. Imagine what happens if you only could lose 1 plane per evening or so...
.
Well, the server would be down to about 10 people after 40 minutes... ;) (cos there aren't enough players in this game)
However, your point is well made. There is no incentive to retain aircraft/ life beyond whatever self-regulation each player places on themselves.
I'mm still of the opinion that a simple stats-reset when players (1) die, (2) leave the server or aircraft when not landed would stop a lot of the the silly behavior, especially by people chasing hundreds of kills per month...
The next part is a little bit in-jest... but not entirely
Incidentally...many of the most "fight until I die" pilots are also the ones with some of the highest numbers of sorties on the stats board (and quite low numbers of landings...)
There are players with hundreds of sorties and less than 100 landings... sometime the ratio is 10:1 (sorties:landings).
The argument that these players "only have enough time for a quick flight now and then" is nonsense. 500 sorties in a month? (that would take around 75 hours of flying, even if each sortie was only 10 minutes!). That's at least two hours per day, EVERY day of the month!
These people (the 500+ sorties club) have plenty of time to land . . .;)
Seriously, to fly 400 or 500 times per month... and only land 50 times or something like that (9:1)? Blimey.
There are even dedicated-bomber pilots who manage ratios of 4:1 with a few hundred missions, surely the fighters can manage it.
;)
JG27-Gaidin
May-29-2014, 12:06
Salute and Howdy all!
I'mm still of the opinion that a simple stats-reset when players (1) die, (2) leave the server or aircraft when not landed would stop a lot of the the silly behavior, especially by people chasing hundreds of kills per month...
Phil, keep in mind that every time a mission ends and your airborne you get an "abandon". I'm no fan of players that fly a mission only to bail instead of returning to base. Of all the different attempts, at alleviating this, the only one I seen come close was the IL2 "WarClouds" solution; you had to land to get credit for your kills, damage. But the problem is Clod's stat tracking sucks. Stat's have always opened a can of worms that most just throw up their hands and give up. But it's the only system that I've seen, in almost 20 years of online combat flight sims, that came close to ending the "mission completion bail syndrome".
Gaidin
5th_Tot
May-29-2014, 12:18
Problem lies in ignorance of reality!
they have suffered fragment damage which put them out of the fight
In the game some pilots stay fighting no matter what damage they take.
thats basicly what im missing here, they shouldn't have the possibility
and i'm not mentioning scratches, im talking about planes where you can clearly look through the wing in 2-3 positions onesided... they can still go for speeds above 400km/h f.e. or keep up in a roller just as good as the intact one.
the drag and lift difference increases and NOT the ability to counteract
Foul Ole Ron
May-29-2014, 12:59
and i'm not mentioning scratches, im talking about planes where you can clearly look through the wing in 2-3 positions onesided... they can still go for speeds above 400km/h f.e. or keep up in a roller just as good as the intact one. the drag and lift difference increases and NOT the ability to counteract
Have you tried flying a Spit with a couple of big 20mm holes in the wing? You won't get over 200mph and rolling becomes significantly more difficult to do. You're essentially out of the fight with 2 large holes in the wing. The best you can hope for at that point is running away and they don't bother to try and follow you. If the 109 wants the kill record your only chance is that they get greedy and are prepared to get into a really slow scissors fight.
thats basicly what im missing here, they shouldn't have the possibility
and i'm not mentioning scratches, im talking about planes where you can clearly look through the wing in 2-3 positions onesided... they can still go for speeds above 400km/h f.e. or keep up in a roller just as good as the intact one.
the drag and lift difference increases and NOT the ability to counteract
Sorry Tot, but that's just plain wrong, you need to fly the Spits and Hurri's with damage before making statements like this, all the aircraft suffer increased drag if damaged regardless of type as it's in the damage coding, they also sufer control problems if damaged, try a Hurricane with wing damage, that's a flying brick!
5th_Tot
May-29-2014, 14:50
no but im fighting them... at the end of the vid the spit goes inverted in split S i decide to follow to push him around for the wingman. i can barely gain on him witch was not the problem but flying strait at those speeds with 2 holes in the wing far away from the gravity center is just ridiculus. some maneuverability below 350 km/h i understand but a high speed dive like he did should roll and yaw the plane to the right spiraling towards the deck.
not enough we end up in a 3000ft tailstand climb... stop it at 1:27 you see both holes left and right of the marking.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=668649509871180
ATAG_Colander
May-29-2014, 14:53
Tot,
I'm exclusively a 109 pilot and trust me when I tell you that they do feel it but obviously not as much as you would like.
No.54 Ghost (KL-G)
May-29-2014, 15:17
not to sound arrogant and with all due respect. maybe the problem is that some players fail to realize that they might be facing off with somebody who has A LOT more experience and knows exactly how to handle there aircraft and what defensive maneuvers work best in the current situation.
they might also think they are FAR better than they really are. this is a common thing with people. they overestimate them self's and underestimate there opponent. instead of blaming the other sides aircraft (or your own for that matter) sometimes maybe we should just accept that the other guy was simply better on all levels, and even though he was damaged he still came out on top.
this is in no way targeted to someone in particular, but just an observation that everybody should consider. some people will always be better than others, and its not because of the plane there in.
ATAG_Colander
May-29-2014, 15:37
Not me. I know I suck :)
ATAG_Snapper
May-29-2014, 16:26
I suck worse than you suck. :ind:
I suck worse than all of you when dragging the most of the RAF on my six :ind::crazyeyes:
but don't get yourself in that position :idea:
92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
May-30-2014, 04:57
not enough we end up in a 3000ft tailstand climb... stop it at 1:27 you see both holes left and right of the marking.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=668649509871180
I not sure I understand your problem here.
The Spitfire is clearly in trouble when you easily overhaul him - you can see just prior to your 1:24 shots that his aircraft is unstable. Look at how it is flying about out-of-balance. That's a slow, unstable aircraft.
After he takes more damage at 1:27 watch the turn he makes, the wing snaps over half way through the roll. That's a sick spitfire.
From memory, damage to the aircraft now costs 50km/h in induced drag (this was well publicised in the last TF release). I suspect that Spitfire will have had it's maximum speed reduced from 309mph down to about 240mph thanks to the two obviously inflicted damages.
ATAG_Colander
May-30-2014, 08:47
From memory, damage to the aircraft now costs 50km/h in induced drag (this was well publicised in the last TF release). I suspect that Spitfire will have had it's maximum speed reduced from 309mph down to about 240mph thanks to the two obviously inflicted damages.
Drag is proportional to the damage and the part of the wing where the damage is.
A single hole in the widest part of the wing will cause more drag than one in the wing tip. Of course, the drag increments with more holes :D
92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
May-30-2014, 09:09
Drag is proportional to the damage and the part of the wing where the damage is.
A single hole in the widest part of the wing will cause more drag than one in the wing tip. Of course, the drag increments with more holes :D
Cheers Colander, I couldn't recall the details.
5th_Tot
May-30-2014, 14:29
I not sure I understand your problem here.
The Spitfire is clearly in trouble when you easily overhaul him - you can see just prior to your 1:24 shots that his aircraft is unstable. Look at how it is flying about out-of-balance. That's a slow, unstable aircraft.
no hes not theres no sing of stall like vapor which you see BEFORE a stall. all he does there is rolling back right to be a tiny target insted of showing me hes wings like in the first merge. and after 1.27 there no snap over. how could it be since its a left roll and right wing with decreased liftvector and yaws back tothe right? to me it locks like a constant rollrate theres no interuption while he rolls inverted. but even if im wrong here no big deal from my point of view... like i said already, counteracting should be ok at lower speeds at high speeds you run out of trim and room for the stick. high speed with that kind of damage should be fatal and its not.
those 50km/h are you assuming that or is that the effect of one 20mm HE on the wing? its part of what i asked before but nobody could tell yet...
ATAG_Snapper
May-30-2014, 14:53
This thread has gone as far as it can with good input from all. Final word goes to 5th_Tot.
Thanks to all for contributing. :salute:
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