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implicit A
May-30-2014, 11:33
Hi everybody,

I'm a french RAF red spit 1a & hurri pilot since beginning of IL2 COD. I have (only) 580 hours of flight in COD TF in SP and MP on Atag ... but :

I still need a help on those questions :

1) why in campaigns ( redux or other ) I never never manage to climb as the same speed and climb rate as the ia formation ? is it because they have wep always enable ? or is it because of to heavy fuel load ? how can i modifie the fuel load in campaigns ? Are we allowed to use alternatives gun settings in campaings ? how to ?

2) I have always that strange feeling that 109's abilities and power are always a bit more accurate than spit. Hard to catch one on a straight course. is there anything else to do than bost +6 and 2800 rpm ? close partialy radiator maybe ? I tried to change pitch but nothing better found.

3) What i your best way to prevent the unattended boom and zoom which make me so tired. ...

4) how to flight at 17000 feet without lose of so much power in Spit 1a rotol, as the 109 ar comming quickly from upper with comtrails.

5) is there anywhere a post or a best of, of advanced tips & tricks from spit aces or veteran ?
like " always arrive in the sun "
attack first the one who is outside others "
or " stay in high altitude to catch 109 in end climb ...
so interresting but difficult to manage in game because of stress.

thank you so much for yor helpfull responses.

ATAG_EvangelusE
May-30-2014, 13:06
Unless things have changed with TF patches, AI are not subject to overheating (I may be wrong of course) and AI do not need to consider CEM (pretty sure this was an issue with IL1946 untill Team Diadolos fixed it in one of their updates). So yes, AI do seem to squeeze more speed.

The Spit1a 100 oct is slightly slower at altitudes above 18K compared to the Spit Mk2a and the MK2a slightly slower than a Spit 1a at lower altitudes (accurate details are in the TF Wiki). You do not need rads fully open unless you are slow and in a constant turn fight - I keep my rads at around 75% - 80% all times and only open them fully if temp gauge reading is starting to creep up. A 109 is difficult to keep up with at any altitude if you are co alt and it can outclimb you unless you have more energy at the start. At any altititude, having the Spit correctly trimmed helps and you can alter your CSP for max rpm if necessary for short periods (when entering into a gentle climb turn for example).

If you have a 109 contrailing above you then you are at a disadvantage for sure if it engages you - my own strategy is to get separation and speed without losing too much alt. Most encounters in a high altitude 1 v1 situation tend to be a series of smooth turn and climb/tuck unders untill someone makes a mistake or someone gets a defelection shot on target. Alternatively, escape!

implicit A
May-30-2014, 13:42
thank you EvangelusE for theses piece of master lesson. and for the rad management advices.

Do you know is there is a way to direct read temperature gauge in an info window, instead of looking down on cokpit regulary ?

P.M: i always take Spit Ia rotol 100 because there are few Atag server mission where spit IIa is allowed. If spit V were available sure i would use it to perform !

For trimming : when you say correctly trimmed it is the spit go straight without touch the stick ? or it is ajustement in climbing ? What about rudder trim : does it break speed abilities ?

RAF74_Buzzsaw
May-30-2014, 14:14
One of the most important thing to remember with the Spitfire is that it turns best at speeds over 160 mph.

The design of the wing is such that while you can pull into very tight turns, and bring your turn speed down below 160 mph without stalling, when you do that, you start to lose turning efficiency.

Whenever possible you need to resist the temptation to pull really tight turns which see your speed degrade too much. :salute:

implicit A
May-30-2014, 14:20
Another Great fondamental Tips ! I hope to make a compil of the best spit tips ever from aces !

in fact, first a little check list "memo" glued on my screen corner. ;-)
never to late to learn.

Great thanks Buzzsaw ! :salute:

ATAG_EvangelusE
May-30-2014, 14:26
Rudder trimmed for straight line speed is essential (ball in centre). (Use rudder to bleed speed as well)

Some like a bit of nose down trim when straight and level, some neutral others slightly nose up. You have to find what works best for you. I tend to go for a bit of 'nose up' except if I am running like hell!

I take a quick glance at the Temp gauge needle position (sometimes I run the mouse over the gauge) - needle in a Spit usually sits at 12 o clock but, rather than check the gauge in combat, I just open the rads if in doubt and, when convenient, take a quick look then close slightly if Temp is OK.

I generally adjust elevator trim for dive, climb and horizontal but it depends on angle and speed - for example, If I come in fast below a 109 thats in a climb I often adjust my trim to climb with it before firing (using less stick) so reducing or eliminating the amount of 'lead' needed. Depends on it's angle of climb of course.

Having trim on a rotary control is essential for me as I am adjusting it all the time and the rotary gives me much faster and finer degrees of adustment.

implicit A
May-30-2014, 15:25
another good piece of advice. thank you.
I have no wheel device to test it but i will try on my stick viewhat for quick trim.

let 's go, time to practice on Atag's server now. :salute:

k39cocoa
May-31-2014, 01:08
I have no wheel device to test it but i will try on my stick viewhat for quick trim.
:

When I had no wheel device I used my mousewheel for elevator trim and it made a big difference....then I put the rudder trim on the left and right button. Of course if you have HOTAS everything is more handy, but the mouse could be a workaround.

Loopback
May-31-2014, 03:53
Do you know is there is a way to direct read temperature gauge in an info window, instead of looking down on cokpit regulary ?



Hi

You can get your gauges showing in a second monitor (could be a tablet device if you run the right software) by using DeviceLink. Details here:-

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3887

I've got a second 22" monitor mounted under my main 27" at a 45 degree angle so I can see the gauges whilst flying without having to take my eyes of the fight.

A good defence against the boom and zoom is to extend away from them as fast as possible. Let them start to come down on you again but keep extending. As they approach start a very slight turn (left or right) but keep your nose just under the horizon to keep extending. When they start to close, tighten your turn but not too much, just enough to keep out of their guns. They will try and draw lead (lead turn) on you which will cause them to burn energy whilst you are gaining energy because of your slight nose down angle. You will have to tighten your turn as they close but they will likely overshoot but they would have burnt a "chunk of change" trying to lead you to get a shot off. As they overshoot (they will overshoot behind you) do a quick reverse and turn into them. They will try and climb away using their energy advantage but the surprise is that they don't have the huge energy advantage that they thought they did and what they do have is an angry spit with some excess energy in guns range right behind them. Chew them up!

If the energy advantage is still to great for you to keep in guns range DON'T follow them, instead split S and extend away from them again and start over. If you do follow them they will "rope a dope" you by waiting for you to stall and then swoop round on you and nail you whilst your still trying to recover the stall. Don't ever follow them in the climb for any length of time as all you will be doing is wasting the energy you just gained. Retain as much energy as you can for the next extend because at the end of each attacking phase you will end up with more and more energy and therefore lowering the energy difference at the end of the turn so you will have them in your gun range for longer.

The reason you extend is because you need to lessen the angle of their decent so that they don't gain buckets of energy. To give you an example of what I mean draw a line between the two X's and the two Y's below and see how the Y will give the shallower glide path and therefore the least amount of energy gained at the bottom of the flight path.

X....................................Y




.................X................................ .................................................. ...........Y

Y represents the 109's extended flight path in response to you extending and the X indicates a great bounce angle for the 109.

The golden rule with this technique is to never loose sight of them. If you do you will get hit - hard. Learn to judge your slight turn and don't make it obvious what you're doing otherwise they will just break off early and start to climb again. You want them to think that they are being the aggressor and you are in a frantic defence - another helpless victim. The reality is that you're the aggressor and you have the advantageous position not them - they just don't know it! Boom and zoom defence is easy, the hard part is seeing them in time to do something about it!

Wow that was a bit longer than I expected! Anyway, before you ask I'm no expert, I get nailed by the boom and zoom more times than I care to admit and my biggest problem is remembering to not go charging after them and getting "roped".

I never practice what I preach ;0)

S!

Alan

RAF74_Buzzsaw
May-31-2014, 04:14
Group Commander 'Sailor' Malan's Ten Rules for Airfighting (Flt/Lt in No. 74 Squadron during the BoB)



1) Wait until you see the whites of his eyes. Fire short bursts of one to two seconds only when your sights are definitely "ON".
2) Whilst shooting think of nothing else, brace the whole of your body: have both hands on the stick: concentrate on your ring sight.
3) Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out".
4) Height gives you the initiative.
5) Always turn and face the attack.
6) Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though your tactics are not the best.
7) Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
8) When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above to act as a top guard.
9) INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAMWORK are words that MEAN something in Air Fighting.
10) Go in quickly - Punch hard - Get out!

JG4_sKylon
May-31-2014, 05:59
@Loopback:
thank you for this very informative post.:thumbsup:

implicit A
May-31-2014, 06:52
Thanks a lot for your contributions of this best spits tactic & advices compil ! :) from most famous Atag Raf Aces !

hope it will be a nice sticky post, it could became a nice guide for stage 2 & 3 student pilot !

another post on the same subject from "robo's tactic"

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=778

on "missionfortoday" :

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=13769

another one :
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/584423-Spitfire-tactics-Forums

If you have other good link for tips ressources please post it in one all.


:salute:

ATAG_Lewis
May-31-2014, 06:59
Welcome to the community and forums implicit A....~S~

I still use this basic setup as it allows you to forget about the CEM and dogfight in Spits and Hurris online ....I like to keep things simple...and this does that....:

Easy Allied Fighters CEM for Beginners (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9111&highlight=easy)

Any questions then you've come to the right place....

Good to have you with us buddy...and remember its all about the Fun!!!

...lew...

Baffin
May-31-2014, 09:46
Trim basics simplified:

A trim tab is simply an aerodynamic "Machine" for deflecting a control surface such as elevator or rudder in the Spitfire.

One form of drag is "Induced" and results from the production of lift. This drag increases whenever (all other factors such as speed and shape remaining unchanged) a control surface is deflected away from the neutral, streamlined position. So, you pull on the stick and the induced drag increases so speed should decrease.

Considering that trim tabs aerodynamically move the control surface, the point of least induced drag is when the tab is streamlined and is not working to move the control surface. This is, of course, very tiresome for the pilot who then must constantly hold backpressure for control of the pitch. In practical terms, the elevator trim tab has little impact during maneuvering combat since the elevator position is constantly changing by pilot input.

The rudder, however, causes the airplane to "Fly sideways" or slip, skid or whatever term you choose. This creates "Parasite" drag much like a parachute does and is to be avoided. So, keep your slip needle/ball centered and you go faster. This is easier said than done in our CLoD simulator due to the lack of feeling when the yaw changes significantly. To compensate, we must include the trim indicators and the turn and slip indicator in our cockpit scan. We can also practice the old pitch and rudder drill to reinforce feet-hands coordination during big pitch changes. Consider it a challenge to stay coordinated... it's part of the fun!

Baffin
May-31-2014, 09:54
When I had no wheel device I used my mousewheel for elevator trim and it made a big difference....then I put the rudder trim on the left and right button. Of course if you have HOTAS everything is more handy, but the mouse could be a workaround.

In my quest for realism, I have also adopted the mouse trim controller. In fact, I use a second mouse, and locate it just aft of my throttle quadrant on the left. This causes me to trim with the left hand just like the Spitfire pilots did in 1940.

I have encountered no problems with using two mice in my system.

ATAG_Deacon
May-31-2014, 10:00
I use a CH Throttle Quad for trim axis (I have all 3 set up in hopes that one day we see a P-40 on a Med map, maybe :recon: ). Using it along with the TH Warthog throttle is a great combo...

implicit A
May-31-2014, 10:32
fidget, very interresting post about trims.

in RAF authentic manuel of spit they say we should do not fly with feet and rudder except for taxiing and maybe when align with the runway in final approach,
as the spit turn gently without rudder use.

http://www.ianmeredith.com/raf_common/img/rafmuseumshop_pilot_notes.jpg

complete manual here :
http://www.brenorbrophy.com/Spitfire/spit11AIIB/SpitIIAIIB.html


it makes me think also to the Reno "galloping ghost" accident

9887 where we can see these trim part of elevator

Thanks Lewis to up this great link.
:salute:

Baffin
Jun-02-2014, 14:53
fidget, very interresting post about trims.

in RAF authentic manuel of spit they say we should do not fly with feet and rudder except for taxiing and maybe when align with the runway in final approach,
as the spit turn gently without rudder use.

http://www.ianmeredith.com/raf_common/img/rafmuseumshop_pilot_notes.jpg

complete manual here :
http://www.brenorbrophy.com/Spitfire/spit11AIIB/SpitIIAIIB.html


it makes me think also to the Reno "galloping ghost" accident

9887 where we can see these trim part of elevator

Thanks Lewis to up this great link.
:salute:

Flying without using all the controls at your disposal is simply lazy flying. I'm as lazy as the next guy when it comes to "feet on the floor" flying, but I consider that to be a personal shortcoming and something to be overcome, not just accepted as OK. I have studied the Spitfire Pilot's Notes and have come to the conclusion that they are in some respects written for the novice pilot in order to keep him alive during initial transition training. It's impossible for me to accept that experienced Battle of Britain pilots did not use the rudder as much as safety allowed In order to increase their advantage.

I used to teach in a Hot-Rod jet that had clear instructions in the flight manual to refrain from using the rudder. I can guaranty that all of the instructors and most of the good students enhanced their performance with judicious use of rudder when appropriate, regardless of what was in the "book".

It's simple: Use the rudder, but don't be stupid with it!

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Jun-02-2014, 15:06
The key to flying the Spitfire, or any of the other virtual aircraft in CLIFFS OF DOVER, is to pay attention to the feedback systems the game has built in.

If you have a force feedback joystick, you need to pay attention to the level of resistance, the way the stick feels, how much 'buffet' effect you are getting... this is a clear indicator of how your aircraft is flying... whether it is on the edge of a stall, flying incorrectly trimmed, etc.

If you don't have F/F, you can get the same feedback by listening to the 'buffet' sounds which the game generates... As the buffet sounds increase, the aircraft is coming closer to the point of a stall.

To fly an optimal turn rate in the Spitfire, you need to 'ride' the buffet, ie. keep the speed and turn at a rate whereby you are getting just a little buffet, but not to the point at which drag overcomes lift.

The way to obtain optimum results is to practice. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Nothing improves your ability to manage your virtual aircraft better than practice in flying it. Eventually flying to achieve optimum performance becomes second nature... you don't even have to think about it. :salute:

implicit A
Jun-02-2014, 16:08
Fidget ! roflmao

You means that 16 years old newbies pilot in WWII was thrown in a perform fighter with wrong instructions, wrong manuel , advised to keep away of rudder as they should perform to survive against 109 kills and should use everything they could to do so.

You're so true. This fact is so incredible but true !
reallity of war .... :flying2:

Your interpretation of "pilot's note" is really interresting for me because i read it and read it and read again, to find what i have missed and not enough learn, but never never i have thought such an evidence of interpretation. It is for newbies training first flight in a yellow trainig plane ! not advanced pilot in war !

thank you so much for this post (sorry for my poor english)


another recent post with tips and video tactics from Lewis and robo :
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11186


thank you RAF74_Buzzsaw for your great advices about sounds and FF !
I manage to drive motor optimum speed with the sound, but i probalby need alternative or optimised files for forcefeedback
is there anywhere on the forum i can find those kind of files for a MS FF2 ?

:salute:

Baffin
Jun-03-2014, 11:08
The key to flying the Spitfire, or any of the other virtual aircraft in CLIFFS OF DOVER, is to pay attention to the feedback systems the game has built in.

If you have a force feedback joystick, you need to pay attention to the level of resistance, the way the stick feels, how much 'buffet' effect you are getting... this is a clear indicator of how your aircraft is flying... whether it is on the edge of a stall, flying incorrectly trimmed, etc.

If you don't have F/F, you can get the same feedback by listening to the 'buffet' sounds which the game generates... As the buffet sounds increase, the aircraft is coming closer to the point of a stall.

To fly an optimal turn rate in the Spitfire, you need to 'ride' the buffet, ie. keep the speed and turn at a rate whereby you are getting just a little buffet, but not to the point at which drag overcomes lift.

The way to obtain optimum results is to practice. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Nothing improves your ability to manage your virtual aircraft better than practice in flying it. Eventually flying to achieve optimum performance becomes second nature... you don't even have to think about it. :salute:

I can't agree more with Buzzsaw's advice to practice, practice and practice! At the end of every "map", there is a two or three minute window that doesn't mean anything to the "Score" which is frequently wasted by bailing out, crashing, etc. Why not use that time to practice something useful? Try maintaining a level, max performance turn with max power. You can explore the envelope and find that "magic corner" where the buffet occurs, and how much descent you NEED to save airspeed. Try a no-flap landing if you're close to a field (Enemy or friendly) or try a true hammerhead stall recovery instead of spinning out after a vertical climb. The possibilities are endless!

Besides the sound cues for approach to stall, there is also a device that converts base frequencies in your audio into tactile vibrations in your chair. I think of it as a "Poor man's" feel system. It's called "The Buttkicker" and is a real treat if you can afford it. Check it out on Google or:

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/gamer2

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Jun-03-2014, 13:53
My comments in regards to using the force feedback and sounds to guide how hard you pull in a turn is related to maximum rate turns.

These are situations whereby you are sacrificing a lot of speed to achieve an angle on a target or to avoid a bandit getting his guns on you.

Ideally that type of situation, ie. when you are maneuvering hard, only happens for a few seconds.

Just as crucial during the rest of the time you fly, is the importance of flying a coordinated, SMOOTH path.

This means avoiding yanking your stick unnecessarily, avoiding inputs which are sudden or jarring, avoiding flying untrimmed.

If your aircraft is subject to any of the above, you are losing speed, or reducing the rate at which you climb.

To paraphrase an experienced combat Ace:

"SPEED AND ALTITUDE ARE LIFE"

Think of altitude and speed as the currency of air combat.

If you have a sufficient amount of speed or altitude in the 'bank' of your aircraft's current flight status, you have the means to convert these states into maneuver. Maneuver allows you to either initiate or escape an attack. In the case of altitude advantage, it allows you to dictate whether or not combat will occur. As 'Sailor' Malan said, it gives you the initiative.

AT ALL TIMES you should be flying your aircraft in such a way as to 'bank' speed and altitude. You optimize your ability to gain speed and altitude when you fly your virtual aircraft smoothly.

When maneuvering into a typical "Boom and Zoom" diving attack, the pilot who makes his transition from level flight, dive and subsequent zoom in a smooth, coordinated manner, will see the highest speed in the dive, the highest zoom, and the optimum return to the altitude he began the attack.

This also applies in the typical "Turn and Burn" attack... ie. the pilot who uses his rudder and ailerons optimally to roll into a smoothly coordinated turn, pull his elevator back so the aircraft tightens the turn in a smooth, stable line, will see less speed bleed and a better turn rate.

Practice flying turns, both maximum rate turns as well as lower G, "Lag pursuit" turns. This way, when you are actually in combat, a smooth turn will be second nature.

Gentle but precise hands are the sign of a good pilot. :salute: