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View Full Version : Questions for TF on future single player changes



FightingSteel1
Jul-28-2014, 19:12
I would like to start a thread asking about some of the specific issues that Cliffs of Dover has towards making it a passable single player experience. I realize this is a multiplayer oriented group, but I don't know of any other place even slightly concerned with this game offline.

I would describe myself as someone that likes a good strike between realism and accessibility in a game like this. I have no interest in an arcade like setting with ridiculous kill counts or junk flight models, but also have no desire to learn how to operate one of these aircraft with every setting, lever and button. I tend towards a game like Jane's WW2 fighters.

That being said, with those games long in the past, IL-2 and Cliffs of Dover are the frontline games of the century. Right now I seem to have to balance between IL-2 being a quality game experience, while is Cliffs of Dover being much nicer to look at and operate. Will the single player side of Cliffs of Dover be upgraded in future patch releases?

At this point, the lack of everything from a quick mission generator to a detailed dynamic campaign are huge. But the quality of the AI and the command structure are deal breakers. I have flown a good chunk of the Redux campaigns, CFS1, etc. and the worst part is the lack of control in the sky. The game has an odd system of either ignoring your commands to wingman, accepting them without you having any idea just exactly what they are going to do, or "auto" commanding the flight for you when enemies are spotted. It's difficult to successfully escort a bomber group when your wingmen can't be ordered to specifically focus on the bomber destroying units, or they decide to chase after something and abandon you/the bombers altogether. Even more puzzling is when they just decide in the middle of it to announce they are returning to base. The whole experience reinforces that you are definitely flying by yourself and are on your own.

Also, at this current point, I can't figure out the bomber and AA defense. In past games, attacking bomber groups from certain directions/lower speed, etc. were bad ideas. In CLOD, attacking them at all means certain damage. I watch the enemy AI fighters take out some bombers, but all of them end up limping back to base or getting shot down themselves in the process. Ground AA is also murder as well. Are those elements of the game overdone now, or is that somehow more realistic? This says nothing of the AI also having no tactics against any kind of target, ground or air.

I know this is rambling, but I just wanted to gauge where the single player part of this game is, and whether it is worth continuing to play in the future waiting for fixes. At this point, regardless of new aircraft or maps, it is too frustrating to seriously stay with like the games of the past.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Jul-28-2014, 22:32
We hope to have revisions to the AI code for TF 5.0, but again, this depends on the amount of time the unpaid members of TF have available.

We have already made some changes to reduce the 'lawndarting' tendency of AI for TF 4.312. So it is certainly within our capabilities.

But we are not going to make any promises at this point. Sorry we can't be more specific. :salute:


I would like to start a thread asking about some of the specific issues that Cliffs of Dover has towards making it a passable single player experience. I realize this is a multiplayer oriented group, but I don't know of any other place even slightly concerned with this game offline.

I would describe myself as someone that likes a good strike between realism and accessibility in a game like this. I have no interest in an arcade like setting with ridiculous kill counts or junk flight models, but also have no desire to learn how to operate one of these aircraft with every setting, lever and button. I tend towards a game like Jane's WW2 fighters.

That being said, with those games long in the past, IL-2 and Cliffs of Dover are the frontline games of the century. Right now I seem to have to balance between IL-2 being a quality game experience, while is Cliffs of Dover being much nicer to look at and operate. Will the single player side of Cliffs of Dover be upgraded in future patch releases?

At this point, the lack of everything from a quick mission generator to a detailed dynamic campaign are huge. But the quality of the AI and the command structure are deal breakers. I have flown a good chunk of the Redux campaigns, CFS1, etc. and the worst part is the lack of control in the sky. The game has an odd system of either ignoring your commands to wingman, accepting them without you having any idea just exactly what they are going to do, or "auto" commanding the flight for you when enemies are spotted. It's difficult to successfully escort a bomber group when your wingmen can't be ordered to specifically focus on the bomber destroying units, or they decide to chase after something and abandon you/the bombers altogether. Even more puzzling is when they just decide in the middle of it to announce they are returning to base. The whole experience reinforces that you are definitely flying by yourself and are on your own.

Also, at this current point, I can't figure out the bomber and AA defense. In past games, attacking bomber groups from certain directions/lower speed, etc. were bad ideas. In CLOD, attacking them at all means certain damage. I watch the enemy AI fighters take out some bombers, but all of them end up limping back to base or getting shot down themselves in the process. Ground AA is also murder as well. Are those elements of the game overdone now, or is that somehow more realistic? This says nothing of the AI also having no tactics against any kind of target, ground or air.

I know this is rambling, but I just wanted to gauge where the single player part of this game is, and whether it is worth continuing to play in the future waiting for fixes. At this point, regardless of new aircraft or maps, it is too frustrating to seriously stay with like the games of the past.

heinkill
Jul-29-2014, 11:09
We hope to have revisions to the AI code for TF 5.0, but again, this depends on the amount of time the unpaid members of TF have available.

We have already made some changes to reduce the 'lawndarting' tendency of AI for TF 4.312. So it is certainly within our capabilities.

But we are not going to make any promises at this point. Sorry we can't be more specific. :salute:

Would like to add my vote to the need to tone down AAA effectiveness (it is way too effective now, resulting in kill rates of 90% at anything approaching historical numbers of barrels) and bomber gunner accuracy, even when bomber gunners are individually set to novice.

H

FightingSteel1
Jul-29-2014, 19:38
We hope to have revisions to the AI code for TF 5.0, but again, this depends on the amount of time the unpaid members of TF have available.

We have already made some changes to reduce the 'lawndarting' tendency of AI for TF 4.312. So it is certainly within our capabilities.

But we are not going to make any promises at this point. Sorry we can't be more specific. :salute:

Don't take it the wrong way...I wasn't attempting to complain about the free updates and time you all are putting into this game. I appreciate the enormous work the TF team has done on this, as it wasn't worth playing at all before the mods.

I simply am trying to get an idea of whether the single player side of things will improve or it's a lost cause. When you say AI improvements, is that just combat AI or also general flight command issues and tactics I mentioned in my first post?

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Jul-29-2014, 21:23
When you say AI improvements, is that just combat AI or also general flight command issues and tactics I mentioned in my first post?

We are aware of and are interested in improving the deficiencies of all aspects of the game, including combat AI behaviour and the lack of proper flight commands.

The issue as always is to find a way to locate, then decrypt the part of the game which controls these aspects and then rewrite the game to correct the problems.

We do have a number of members who specialize in AI behaviour and commands and who have done work with other sims.

But we cannot make any promises. Unlike the methods used in creation of new aircraft/objects, this is an area where our knowledge is still limited. :salute:

X-Raptor
Jul-31-2014, 14:56
We are aware of and are interested in improving the deficiencies of all aspects of the game, including combat AI behaviour and the lack of proper flight commands.

The issue as always is to find a way to locate, then decrypt the part of the game which controls these aspects and then rewrite the game to correct the problems.

We do have a number of members who specialize in AI behaviour and commands and who have done work with other sims.

But we cannot make any promises. Unlike the methods used in creation of new aircraft/objects, this is an area where our knowledge is still limited. :salute:


WILL be VERY important to focus on A.I. behaviour and to correct its native bugs like described.
There are many Single Player playing CLOD.. and remember that even if there are exceptions, normally every On-Line player come from a Single Player experience, if TF great Band of developers/debuggers here could pay BIG attention on resolving A.I. wrong (like A.I. coming home at the middle of a mission...:(.. or similar big problem this will be a good step to involve more new players to go on-line after some good-time-satisfaction on playing CLOD in S.P. Just my opinion.:salute:

Mysticpuma
Aug-01-2014, 06:34
X-Raptor. Ai is one of the features Team Fusion really want to work on, especially the Radio Commands and actually Ai Logarithms. It sadly does all take time as there are so many areas to work on and as a Team we can only work on what we have been able to decode as we don't have the "Source Code". Ultimately we are community members as you are and not all of us are interested in online play, so please don't think this is something we are ignoring. I would love nothing better than to play the Single Player missions all with active radio commands and Ai that does what it should do.

All I can say is stick with us. We are in it for the long run and are doing our best as time allows.

Cheers, MP

X-Raptor
Aug-01-2014, 15:43
X-Raptor. Ai is one of the features Team Fusion really want to work on, especially the Radio Commands and actually Ai Logarithms. It sadly does all take time as there are so many areas to work on and as a Team we can only work on what we have been able to decode as we don't have the "Source Code". Ultimately we are community members as you are and not all of us are interested in online play, so please don't think this is something we are ignoring. I would love nothing better than to play the Single Player missions all with active radio commands and Ai that does what it should do.

All I can say is stick with us. We are in it for the long run and are doing our best as time allows.

Cheers, MP

:salute::salute:

Redeye
Aug-01-2014, 17:06
Hi Guys,

Just another offline pilot with his thumbs crossed for better offline play.

Cheerio,

Redeye

dburne
Aug-01-2014, 19:07
Hi Guys,

Just another offline pilot with his thumbs crossed for better offline play.

Cheerio,

Redeye

Add me to that list as well, I only do offline and anything at all done to improve the offline content is very much appreciated.

heinkill
Aug-02-2014, 07:27
Would love to get close to what we have in BoB2, which is all I need...

http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob_dev/PaulPics/BoB_Radio_commands1.jpg
http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob_dev/PaulPics/BoB_Radio_commands2.jpg
http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob_dev/PaulPics/BoB_Radio_commands3.jpg
http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob_dev/PaulPics/BOBC776p51.jpg[/quote]

Whizkid
Aug-02-2014, 21:36
Hi, gents. Most interesting discussion re. single players, of which I am one. I'm pretty ancient, so feel that Online play isn't my thing as I'd slow the game down to a crawl, so I just dodder around by myself in my Hurri and try and stick on the WingCo's wing. He has an awfully short fuse, so I try hard.
Anyway, I for one would love to see more corrections take place, as CoD is certainly the premiere Flight Sim out there, but certainly sympathize with the ones doing the correcting, as todays demands on our time is horrendous. So whatever is offered is gratefully accepted by all of us, I'm sure.
As an aside, I would like to thank all the TF Managers, or whatever you call yourselves, for a superb job on the Forum, and on the Website as a whole. You guys go beyond any thanks for your dedication to the game and our whining, and were it in my power to do so I'd foot the bill for a bloody good dinner for all, along with drinks, of course! Thanks, gents!

Mysticpuma
Aug-04-2014, 04:54
Would love to get close to what we have in BoB2, which is all I need...

http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob_dev/PaulPics/BoB_Radio_commands1.jpg
http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob_dev/PaulPics/BoB_Radio_commands2.jpg
http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob_dev/PaulPics/BoB_Radio_commands3.jpg
http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob_dev/PaulPics/BOBC776p51.jpg[/QUOTE]

Very nice :)

heinkill
Aug-04-2014, 05:52
Hell, I'd be happy if we just got this ONE command working - 'ATTACK!' Ie attack any darned enemy aircraft in visual range.

In BoB2 that is 3-5 (or a joystick button) and it works beautifully in a furball because the AI is programmed to assign no more than 2 AI per enemy target. You call ATTACK and your flight break off in pairs and go for the enemy.

If they would just follow that one order, and the rest of the time follow me like dumb sheep, I'd be in heaven!

The whole 'attack fighters, attack bombers' thing would be great, but I just want them to attack anything, no questions asked, no workarounds needed...

H

zionid
Aug-07-2014, 08:55
Attack, reform and RTB would be the essential commands to make things work:) Everything after that is icing on the cake:)

ahab71
Aug-08-2014, 09:22
Hi Guys,

Just another offline pilot with his thumbs crossed for better offline play.

Cheerio,

Redeye

+one more...
S!:salute:

blackshark
Sep-18-2014, 09:34
+one more...

i was planning to start single player campaigns on CoD; based on what i read here i suppose it's better to wait ...

mayday
Oct-15-2014, 07:37
Another dedicated Offliner here. Massively appreciative of all you guys have done and are continuing to do for this game. One day at a time boys.:salute:

Mysticpuma
Oct-15-2014, 08:29
It is something that TF are keen to look at....it's just finding the right area of the code to look in.

Imagine the scene at the end of the Matrix where Neo starts to see the world around him as strings of numbers. Now place yourself in that world with 4,000,000 of them moving around you.....then spot the string that contains the correct code.......at the moment it's a bit harder than that.....but we're looking :)

nemo7
Oct-15-2014, 09:31
Another dedicated Offliner here. Massively appreciative of all you guys have done and are continuing to do for this game. One day at a time boys.:salute:

+1

SkyHigh
Oct-18-2014, 10:50
Hello, chaps. Just downloading the game. Looking forward to trying it very much. As a complete off-liner who has at various times tried my luck (not much!) at CFS1, CFS3, EAW, FS-SDOE, BoB I and II, Il-2 1946 amongst others, I personally value dogfighting AI, bomber-gunner AI and flak AI as the most important ingredients, along with general atmosphere (EAW and BoB I &2). I am grateful for the great achievements heretofore and eagerly anticipate what can be achieved hereon in.

dburne
Oct-18-2014, 17:41
Hello, chaps. Just downloading the game.

Welcome to the forums! You are in for a treat!
Don't hesitate to ask on anything you need help with , lot of great knowledgeable guys in here that will be glad to help out!

SkyHigh
Oct-18-2014, 18:53
Welcome to the forums! You are in for a treat!
Don't hesitate to ask on anything you need help with , lot of great knowledgeable guys in here that will be glad to help out!

Thanks for the welcome. Already got it going but still waiting for the TF patches to all come down. Running very well on my rig, looks good already.