Br20, Oh lordy!

[Uther]

After my usual JU88 death dive on the server last night, I decided to try the BR20 offline. Any tips on flying the beast, or even just take off precedures/engine settings etc, because this Italian crate seems a bit of a contraption!

[MajorBorris]

heres a jimbosmith123 startup vid:happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-U4WbDezwo

Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_BR.20



http://italianaircraftofwwii.devhub.com/blog/584810-fiat-br20-cicogna/

Watchman was having fun in the Br.20 sometime back and may be of assistance.

I hope we get some more info soon as she is a sexy plane.

[Uther]

I actually managed to get it up and fly around a bit, a nice plane, but a bit of a handful. I feel like I need another throttle quad to fly it.
She literally fell out of the sky when I let the speed drop too much on landing.
What were they thinking when they modelled the 'engineers?' position! All I see is some none functioning controls and a nice view out the window...

[ATAG_Torian]

I took my 1st flight in one a couple of days ago. Got it off the ground and up to a
reasonable altitude. I then went to take a tour around the various positions and
as soon as I got into the ventral gunner position the plane kinda dropped outta
the sky.
I got back into the pilot position to find both engine throttles had gone back to
zero even tho I hadn't touched them. The plane became quite unresponsive and I
eventually had to crash land. 2nd time up I just stayed put in the cockpit and flew
over to a target objective. There was no real way to accurately bomb anything
and both my 500kg bombs missed. Interesting to fly for the heck of it but not one u
would take on a serious attempt to hit a target with. The bomb fuses only have a
high altitude mechanism so not sure if they would even work trying to low level or
even skip-bomb with.

[MajorBorris]

I actually managed to get it up and fly around a bit, a nice plane, but a bit of a handful. I feel like I need another throttle quad to fly it.
She literally fell out of the sky when I let the speed drop too much on landing.
What were they thinking when they modelled the 'engineers?' position! All I see is some none functioning controls and a nice view out the window...

I was thinking of another quad too but not sure if this one aircraft warrants the investment, it would be nice though! Maybe I can find some xtra jing in the couch:hiding2:

[Jara4]

I took my 1st flight in one a couple of days ago. Got it off the ground and up to a
reasonable altitude. I then went to take a tour around the various positions and
as soon as I got into the ventral gunner position the plane kinda dropped outta
the sky.
I got back into the pilot position to find both engine throttles had gone back to
zero even tho I hadn't touched them. The plane became quite unresponsive and I
eventually had to crash land. 2nd time up I just stayed put in the cockpit and flew
over to a target objective. There was no real way to accurately bomb anything
and both my 500kg bombs missed. Interesting to fly for the heck of it but not one u
would take on a serious attempt to hit a target with. The bomb fuses only have a
high altitude mechanism so not sure if they would even work trying to low level or
even skip-bomb with.

Yesterday I tried to fly this plane, but with the same results.:( Did someone find a solution?

[Archie]

Not sure Jara, I have not flown it for a while. I can't remember the last time I saw anyone fly one on the server either.A shame as its an interesting aircraft, but the German bombers just work so much better.

[Torric270]

I have been experimenting with the Br20 just for grins. Level bombing in the 2000-2700 range, I started hitting targets with the 250s and 800s by using indicated airspeed minus 20 km/h. Tested online with the 250s and hit 2 targets at around 2300 m.

For switching postions if you have issues, use Alt 1-5 instead of C per Keller.

[1lokos]

The bomb fuses only have a high altitude mechanism so not sure if they would even work trying to low level or
even skip-bomb with.

With 100kg GP bombs and Mechanical Type C - Medium Altitude fuse you can do skip bomb with Br-20.
Two well placed bombs sunk transport ship (probable just one sunk).

Dont forget to arm bombs and open bomb bay doors - press key/button for ~15 seconds.

With this new elevator settings for Br-20/He-111 in TF Patch 3.01 you can do skip with Br-20bombs without loose wings. :thumbsup:

Sokol1

[Archie]

Interesting! So, it sounds as if it is somewhat usable, but certainly not a plane you can just jump into and do well with. Although to be fair, thats most planes in CoD!

[=UAi= Shkrab]

BR-20m great airplane, fly only two years on it

[=UAi=Shkrab]

ATAG Server

[1lokos]

Shkrab,

You get good results in level bomber with Br.20?

My attempts end like with Blenheim: ~1% of direct hits. :cry:

I hope that TF make some concession to "reality" and enable, for Blenheim and BR.20, this:

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3926/stablizier.jpg :)

Sokol1

[=UAi=Shkrab]

Shkrab,

You get good results in level bomber with Br.20? ----------Only dive and topmatch

My attempts end like with Blenheim: ~1% of direct hits. :cry:

I hope that TF make some concession to "reality" and enable, for Blenheim and BR.20, this:

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3926/stablizier.jpg :)

Sokol1----------no...no....no...unhistorical

[=UAi=Shkrab]

I still (in spite ATAG_Colander) taught BR-20m dive from a height of 5000 meters. I cheated overload G +4-2.

[Sandy1942]

Guys, Shkrab in the past the real military pilot (MiG-21). In COD he loves BR.20 most of all.

[1lokos]

Shkrab

Br.20 is not a Ju-88 :D
Show us your level bomber skill. :thumbsup:

Sokol1

[=UAi= Shkrab]

Shkrab

Br.20 is not a Ju-88 :D
Show us your level bomber skill. :thumbsup:

Sokol1
no. I used to see H-111 and Ju -88 only in the grid sight ....... I do not like .. mentelitet.

[Torric270]

I have had some luck level bombing in the Br. I use the same setup every time to bomb between 2000 and 2500m. I have my engines set to 700 mm @ 75% prop pitch for an indicated airspeed of about 340-345. I have both my top turret and bottom gunner open (bottom gunner open changes the pitch of aircraft, but use it to see the bomb drop)

I set my alt to my present altitude minus the target height and my airspeed set to 310 km/h (found by trial and error that it usually works at 20-30 km/h under indicated for 100 kgs, and indicated plus 10 km/h for 800 kgs)

The bombs I have used most of the time and do the best with are the GP 100 kgs.

By using this setup every time, it just comes done to getting the plane trimmed up for the most straight and level flight possible without AP. Then it is just a matter of micro adjustments while lining up the target and not getting the plane too out of whack at the time of bomb drop (which happens all the time with last second adjustments) Using this method, when I miss, it just mostly a left and right miss from the plane barely turning (last second adjustment) and not long or short.

He is a pic while bombing the bombers @ B 11.2. I used series with either the default 10m spread or 20 m spread.

2931

[=UAi=Shkrab]

Let Torric 270 fly together on the BR-20 .....

[Roblex]

I need some advice on just keeping the BR20 in the air!

The TF guide says the oil temp has to be at least 50-60, ideally 80-90 with overheat at 95.
It also says the cylinder head needs to be at least 140, ideally 200-240 with overheat at 260

My first attempt at take-off the oil gaskets blew before I even stared my run so I assumed I had allowed something to overheat.
My second attempt I finally got it in the air and climbing slowly then 60 seconds later the oil gasket blew again and I was showing oil temps of 78 & 80 and cylinder head of 180. Revs were 2050 once the gear was raised. Mixture 100%.

Are the figures in the TF guide wrong or is there something else? I must say that the engine was running rough during take-off despite seeming to be at the minimum temps.

That is one touchy plane. Even getting the engines to start is fiddly!

[Torric270]

I need some advice on just keeping the BR20 in the air!

The TF guide says the oil temp has to be at least 50-60, ideally 80-90 with overheat at 95.
It also says the cylinder head needs to be at least 140, ideally 200-240 with overheat at 260

My first attempt at take-off the oil gaskets blew before I even stared my run so I assumed I had allowed something to overheat.
My second attempt I finally got it in the air and climbing slowly then 60 seconds later the oil gasket blew again and I was showing oil temps of 78 & 80 and cylinder head of 180. Revs were 2050 once the gear was raised. Mixture 100%.

Are the figures in the TF guide wrong or is there something else? I must say that the engine was running rough during take-off despite seeming to be at the minimum temps.

That is one touchy plane. Even getting the engines to start is fiddly!

The way I have run it is once oil temp reaches around 40 I'll open oil rad to 35%, once cylinder temp reaches 100 i'll open air louvers to 35% as well. This keeps it from over doing it even though the engines are technically still cold. As I taxi and the temps warm up the shaking starts to subside. You can take-off at full power without worrying about over heat. (At least in my experience)

Once airborne and I set m engines to 30 min limits, I'll then drop my oil rad down to 15% and my air louvers down to 25%.

Hope this helps

[1lokos]

I borrow this tips from Sukhoi-forum, posted by =UAI=Shkrab (The master on this plane :salute:).

Loose translation (I don't know Russian, and my English is... crude)

EDIT - Due chages in original text, now here: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1222&p=51099&viewfull=1#post51099


Sokol1

[Roblex]

Thanks. I will try that though they are pretty much the things I was doing. I can only assume that even though the oil temp looked OK when the engine failed, it had been too low during the take-off and damaged the engine.

[ATAG_Freya]

And after the flight the pilot will run around the aircraft with a revolver in hands to shoot your gunners for treason.

:roflmao: Ha. Those gunners...

[=UAi=Shkrab]

All that is written above and TF Wiki wrong.
May God help you to Google
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67937&page=3&p=1969297#post1969297

[sw1ive]

what do you say ???

that...


Br20 is the best of the best
it is the god of the gods
it's the king of the kings


O.K. I bilive all of you...

================= I W I L L C H E C K I T O U T ================

[1lokos]

All that is written above and TF Wiki wrong.

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=67937&page=3&p=1969297#post1969297



"Typical CloD" : All confuse, incomplet, incorrect, unknow... :)

Latter I edit my "translation" with your "Сегодня" edition. :thumbsup:

Done - basicaly different engines settings and the use of Landing Gear as "dive brake" instead flaps.



Br.20 the "Cicogna"

BASIC SETTINGS

FUEL - Use 30%, that make plane more maneuverable and provide 2 hour of flight - if the eney don't puncture your tanks. (NT - And after all, you will not fly back to Rome).

BOMB LOADING - 12 General Purpose (another types don't show advantages), selec bomb weight (50, 100, 2509, 400, 800kg) accord your target.

TURRET SETTINGS - Put ammo tracer in all turrets (it's help aim if you jump to gunner position, and the most important is the negative effect on human piloted fighters, who tend to move away from the tracers, dodging his attacks).

NT - In il-2:CloD Br.20 rear turret is not designed for control with mouse, but with joystick X and Y axis, but to avoid move turret and plane controls at same time use a modifier key/button (*ie. space bar ) in turret axis configuration together with axis, so pressing this key/button an moving joystick only the turret move, to shoot set joystick trigger. This result in probable the best turret control see in any WWII sim. But this is valid only for BR.20 rear turret. For another turrets (and planes) use mouse (is advisable to increase the sensitivity to 1.5 or more in conf.ini.)
And remember that in il-2:CloD turrets only fire is plane vertical movement is lower than 5 m/s (UbiZ00 wishes).

PRE-FLIGHT SETTINGS

- Set both throttles in 8%
- Cowl flaps and oil radiator in 0%
- Mixture in 100%
- Carburetor heater in 0%
- Propeller pitch in 75% - don't change this settings throughout the flight.
- Select left engine and start
- Select right engine and start
- Select all engines
- Adjust altimeter to "0 m"
- Switch the cylinder head sensor to right or left with "Telepirometrico eletrico" switch on panel.
- Turn on the main and secondary cockpit illumination (that make easy look at instruments even even in daytime flights) .
- Elevator trim - one notch upper (optional during taxi)
- Monitoring engines temperature.
- When engines temperature reached 30 degrees, throttle up smoothly (very slowly) to 15-30% (to quickly engines warm) .
- When engines temperature reached 50 degrees - you are ready to taxi .
- Open cowl flaps to 30%
- Open oil radiator to 25-30% - don't change this settings throughout the flight.
- Due lack of frontal visibility for pilot (especially at night) you can ease taxi if change for bombardier cockpit and look front through bombsight (Shif+F1) adjusted to 370KMH - this provide a good frontal view.
- With engine temperature around 50 degrees ... you can safely increase the engine revs to 100% to aid steer.

TAKEOFF

- Engine temperatures should be no less than 150 degrees (cowl flaps opened by 25-30% )
- Oil temperature should be no less than 50-70 degrees (oily radiators open to 25-30%, switch indicator arrow at 9 o'clock).
- Mixture in 100%
- Carburetor heater in 0%
- Elevator trim up one notch. The plane have tendency to nose dive after rise Landing Gear.

NOTE

For faster takeoff you can use WEP ("Fast and Furious" accord Google translator :whacky4:) (engines revs in 110%) and set flaps in the takeoff position, the second mark on the indicator (NT- right side of cockpit, behind co-pilot - use "hold to offset camera" key to better view) pressing "Lower Landing Flap Position" key (default V) to 8-10 seconds. - At speed of 150 KM/H the plane smoothly detached itself from the runway. Make sure that immediately after takeoff raised flaps fully.

CLIMB

- Engines temperature should be around 190 - 220 degrees (adjust cowl flaps, usually after takeoff set to 40% open is OK)
- Oil temperature should be 50 - 60 degrees (at all altitudes and flight whit fly flaps pol radiator set in 15% open is OK).
- Reduce mixture 10% at each 1000m of additional altitude(90% at 1000m - 80% at 2000m - 70% at 3000m - 60% at 4000 - 50% at 5000 - 40% >6000).
- Carburetor heater - temperature drops with altitude, but should be maintained at 15-20 degrees. Sometimes in flight you have to switch engine left or right to align the temperature of carburetors. Sometimes ... to maintain carburetors temperature at 15 - 20 degrees, engines revs need to be set a 15% on left and 35% on right. At medium altitudes (up to 3000m) engines temperature control parameters is not affected .. but with the rise to a height above 3000m keeping temperature between 15-20 degrees avoid overheat . 230 degrees is the maximum admissible at height of 7.000m.
- Propeller pitch a 75% (in all flight modes don't need to change).
- WEP (110% of engine revs)- In normal flight it's not need. If used monitor engines temperature.

NOTE

1. Engine temperature instrument. Under FOV 70 (End key) the instruments in cockpit are highly readable. Always after takeoff mouse over temperature instrument - the indicator needle of instrument don't move, but always have seen slightest temperature changes in the digital information.
2. If in flight you move to crew positions , make sure, especially being on upper turret, to return to pilot position via navigator position (or use Alt + F2 - don't use C (change positions) this is command is bugged) to make room for AI gunner. Otherwise, they don't detect and don't react to enemy attacks. And after the flight the pilot will run around the aircraft with a revolver in hands to shoot your gunners for treason.

DIVING BOMBING

Level bombing is not considered ... that's a peculiar subject when looking through bombsight scope. Without Autopilot keep plane aligned with target is unrealistic hard. Visibility, even at height of 2700m is very bad ... Only target area is viable to horizontal bombing. Use Br.20M as dive bomber.

Before attack.

1. Open bombay doors (watch the crank in bombardier cockpit or hold the key/button for at least 6 seconds to open/close teh bombabay doors).
2. Arming bombs
3. Select short delay
4. Select salvo mode single

Dive Bombing Attack

You dive fron any height, even 5.000 -7000 meters. The aircraft is subject to flutter, ie... destruction of planes controls. Dont exceed the speed of 500KMH. Dont overload +4, -2 G.

Before entering into a dive.

Adjusts:

- Propeller Pitch in 0%.
- Oily radiator in 25-30% open.
- Cowl flaps - depending on the actual engines temperature, adjust if need.
- Mixture - Don't change settings.
- Carburetor heater - Don't change settings.
-If the height of input into a dive > 1.000-2.000m reduce throttle to 0%.
- If the height of input into a dive > 3.000-6.000m lower the Landing Gear, to not exceed the speed of 500KM/H. Remember when exiting of dive rise the Landing Gear.

Diving:

- Reduce throttle to 0% .
- Reduce Propeller Pitch to 0%.
- Start the dive.
- Lower the Landing Gear.
- After entering into a dive align with target.
- Center trim.
- Drop the bombs. IF you did all correctly, dont overload +4G. Recover.
- Raise Landing Gear.
- Propeller Pitch 75%.
- Increase the mixture to 100%
- Carburetor Heater 0%.
- Engage WEP (engine revs 110%.)
- Climb to 500m-1000m of height.

The advantages of these methods are...

1. At recovery of dive (at any height), the engines temperature normally are 140-150 degrees. Then increase to 190-200 degrees.
2. High speed at end of dive - 400-500KM/H (but this is not critical).
3. High speed at recovery and engines performance provide greater maneuverability in the climb.


Sokol1

[Torric270]

"Typical CloD" : All confuse, incomplet, incorrect, unknow...

"Quote Originally Posted by =UAi=Shkrab View Post

All that is written above and TF Wiki wrong."

That blanket statement doesn't help me improve the wiki all. More specific statements would help a lot more. The fm was changed in the patch, I took the engine settings from the flight model team and put them into the wiki, if that's what you are referring to.

The only way I can respond at this time with no specifics is that you are successful flying it your way and I am successful flying this way. I can fly for long flights, glide/dive bomb, skip bomb ships, level bomb successfully, and land back at the base. I flew many, many hours in the plane to come up with the rest of the wiki beyond the engine settings.

I am looking forward to more specifics as to what you think is wrong, whether it be with the new flight model, engine settings, etc so we can improve the wiki.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Hmmm...... undercarriage down at 400+ kph..... :coolio:

Think we need to do some tweaking of undercarriage damage systems. :die:

By the way:

BR-20 was built much stronger than most level bombers, better than Heinkel or Dornier. (not as strong as Ju-88, which was dive bomber capable)

We may do some adjustment of the G ratings for this aircraft.

[=UAi= Shkrab]

Thanks 1lokos translation

[=UAi=Shkrab]

1. 1.There are instructions - Mein Kampf for BR-20m
3435
http://turbobit.net/0s5t6nmuwp5r/MI_%20FiatBR201940.pdf.html

2. Landing gear, flaps only affect the inhibition of the aircraft, and no it does not susceptible to damage from high-speed pressure. --- Bug.
3. Open bomb doors do not affect the speed of the plane-bug
4. BR-20m - medium bomber, but not heavy. Overload must be +6 -3 but not like now +4 -2. ---- Bug.
5. In the last patch, greatly reduced the effectiveness of the elevator trim-bug.

6. The effectiveness of the bombs of 50, 100, 250, 500 and even 800 kg --- the same, just a bug-catcher
7. In the first flight to Britain bombed by the Italians from the height of 6000 meters, and we have only bombopritsel maximum of 2700 m. --- Bug
8. If the flight was jumping on the plane, the arrows are silent when attacking an enemy, you need only to click the arrow on the spot Alt + F2, then the arrow is activated, but can not exceed the vertical speed of 5 m / s. --- Bug.
9. The bottom arrows on line always silent-bug.
10. The effectiveness of all the shooters = zero-bug.
11. With the release of the impeller, the engine temperature increases sharply at 30-50 degrees --- bug.
3436

12. A maximum speed of 410km / h at an altitude of 4250m plane does not develop, only 350km/ch-bag.
13. Fly the aircraft in place scorer impossible. Turns out, on the spot scorer to fly horizontally, at the same time, look between the legs on their eggs. Very hard. That is why BR-20m almost no flies. Only maniacs. Make at least autopilot roll ... I understand that it is not historical.
14. Well, the biggest bug (there originally with the appearance of the game).
Buzzsaw, will appear in the on-line server ATAG on BR-20m. Do not touch anything, just click on the button-settings-plane-switching between the position of the selected pilot and
3437
...... and within 10 minutes do not touch anything else ... and you will see a miracle! I am sometimes in-line (so long to warm up using the bug). Then I switch back to manual control. Sometimes when attacking Spitfire also push the button ... and transplanted in place of the upper hand ... and the plane flies itself in a straight line ---- bug.

AND THAT'S NOT ALL. Please unmade BR-20m ... my favorite Maserati.

[1lokos]

Well, is not for nothing that the Italians had a bad performance in the BoB, with thins kind of plane. :D


... can not exceed the vertical speed of 5 m / s. --- Bug.
The effectiveness of all the shooters = zero-bug.

This two I dont call as "bug", but as "UbiZ00 wishes". :grrr:

Sokol1

[AKA_Recon]

Shkrab,

You get good results in level bomber with Br.20?

My attempts end like with Blenheim: ~1% of direct hits. :cry:

I hope that TF make some concession to "reality" and enable, for Blenheim and BR.20, this:

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3926/stablizier.jpg :)

Sokol1

would be nice... every time someone says 'that isn't realistic' I just have to laugh, then we go on to document dive bombing in it with lowering landing gear, etc... as if that is realistic.

question is more 'is this even possible to code' vs. 'it's not realistic'

[Ioshic]

Shkrab, fantastic post!
Very informative, very well written out.

I too love the BR.20 in the online environment, faster than a He.111 and better armed as well,but
there is a very serious BUG when shifting view from the bomb aimer position (shift-F1) online.

When I press the button to look into the bomb aiming device,the game just CTDs.

Did anyone find a solution to that?

And of course there is the bomb aiming system set to only 2.700m max altitude.

Cheers

[Torric270]

I did some trial and error testing bombing from 4700 meters using 12 GP 100 kg bombs. Using 230 km/h @ 2700 m input into the bombsight I was able to get pretty close to my target. (100% throttle and 75% prop) I tried it online and bombed Lympne from around 4700 meters and the bombs hit right on target. Just don't tell those Red guys. :-P

[EG14_Marcast]

I did some trial and error testing bombing from 4700 meters using 12 GP 100 kg bombs. Using 230 km/h @ 2700 m input into the bombsight I was able to get pretty close to my target. (100% throttle and 75% prop) I tried it online and bombed Lympne from around 4700 meters and the bombs hit right on target. Just don't tell those Red guys. :-P

How long did it take to you to get 4700 m? I made an offline test for the new autopilot. I carried two 800 kgs bombs, and taking off was very hard. As soon as I started the compressors still on the ground, as by instructions, the aircraft began to tremble so that I had to cut it off. On air, with or without compressors, the aircraft was leaning to the left also with autopilot R22 on.

[Torric270]

How long did it take to you to get 4700 m? I made an offline test for the new autopilot. I carried two 800 kgs bombs, and taking off was very hard. As soon as I started the compressors still on the ground, as by instructions, the aircraft began to tremble so that I had to cut it off. On air, with or without compressors, the aircraft was leaning to the left also with autopilot R22 on.

I dont recall how long it took but i made 5k in plenty of time to bomb. These numbers will only work with 100kgs as more trial and error will be needed for the 800s as these require different numbers even at 2500m.

How much fuel are you taking as i dont recall having problems taking off with 800s. I take more than most people in case of fuel leaks, 48% for both br20 and 88, some probably take around 30, 35%.

As far as AP, you will have accept the shaking if you want it to be more precise, if not, then you will just have be constantly adjusting to stay on course or fly manually. Just let it shake, you will get used to it.

As far as leaning to the left, it is just that you need to input some aileron trim in mode course, in mode 22 just kick left or right ap or left or right directional gyro to try and help itself staighten out.

[EG14_Marcast]

How much fuel are you taking as i dont recall having problems taking off with 800s. I take more than most people in case of fuel leaks, 48% for both br20 and 88, some probably take around 30, 35%.


Mmm, I probably had full tanks. And maybe I also made some mess, as on the first try it could barely move forward at full throttle and full pitch on taxiing. It's hard to get used to the shaking, it looks like it can fall apart any time.