For vranac

[Hood]

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18203772

This plus monitor plus SSD and HDD plus Asus Xonar D2X plus bits and pieces actually came to £1,654. I didn't pay the bundle shown price on that thread though. No wonder I hid the receipt from my wife.

No retraction needed.

Hood

[vranac]

I will respond to you anyway.

I will admit that I was wrong, they cherry picked CPU and sold it to you.

But I'll tell you again that was bad choice in that time. Sandy Bridge was out a few months after that and every CPU can work at 4.5 GHz.
With some 20% of those can run @4.7-4.8 GHz without a glitch.

You bought two years old platform (and overpayed it even) and if you were smart enough to ask on some HW dedicated forum you would get unambiguous answer.
Don't buy it, wait for Sandy Bridge.

Do you want me to send you CloD tracks from Jun-July 2011. by the way ?
Version is different, but every pause and freeze stay recorded on a track recording.

EDIT: I forgot to click on the link that you gave. Why is it 4.0 GHz there ?

http://www.dodaj.rs/f/Y/JC/4RsuUXNx/950.jpg

[Hood]

I think the link says 4.0Ghz because they could only find a few CPUs that were good for that overclock. Mine was one of the last.

I really considered the next gen chips but at that time it made more sense to upgrade as the bundle was then cheaper - £530 - and I wanted it then. You can always wait for the next thing but sometimes there is no point. It was actually pretty good as it ran everything inc Crysis 3 at good settings on a 24" monitor. Overall I was very happy with it for over 3 years so it was a good choice. I didn't NEED to do my last upgrade but new shiny kit is always good kit.

Tracks not needed - I believe you could run it smoothly. I could also but then there were micro stutters, then crashes, then control issues then this and that - http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23405&highlight=priority+bugs

I was one of the lucky ones in a squad - at least I could get smooth fps in limited situations when it worked. Now it is very good. There are problems remaining but these are being fixed by TF - I hope for weather with no fps hit, decent AI and a new theatre.


Part of the above is why I don't like CLOD v BOS comparisons because they compare CLOD as it is now (3.5 years post release with major fixes and excellent TF work) compared to BOS pre-release. CLOD may always have some aspects better but any sim anywhere has pros and cons compared to the others. Except M$ CFS. That was all cons. There is too much shooting down of BOS before it has even had a chance to show what it can do.

I also don't like comparisons between CLOD as it is now compared to CLOD as it was. They are two different games for me.

Hood


ps Mods - sorry this is an off topic thread but it very loosely touches on BOS. Close it if you want.

[vranac]

I'll be honest Hood, the most annoying bugs for me were sound disappearing bug and the ghost contacts.
The first one was solved relatively quickly by rewriting the sound engine (month or so) and the second one also when bug was documented and reported to the devs.

CloD was forced out by 1C a bit too early, 6 months or a year maybe. Oleg stayed with the team even after the crysis management was introduced.
He left in October -November 2010. when he saw that management won't give the satisfactory result and will push the release nevertheless.

You're saying a lot about comparisons but how can you compare developement of one sim on a new engine and another on a 3-4 years old one.
Yes, they improved some things, introduced some new technologies within that old engine but that is not enough for me. It is a step back in every way.
It is practicaly moded RoF.
Hey, we would be probably flying over Mediterranean today if "BoM" had got a chance. It was planned for 2013.
That's my point.

Cheers

vranac

[Hood]

Both engines are 3 to 4 years old but they both have very different focuses and so consequently different levels of complexity. I like CLOD and I like BOS (though not the cockpits and the difficulty identifying enemies). I like ROF and I even liked (after 5 minutes in it) the SU25 in DCS (I managed to land first time without setting any keys and finding the airbrake and gear keys by educated guesswork). They are all different but I wouldn't say one is better than the other. And I try to avoid comparisons because they are so different. I also try to ignore any shortcomings in any of them.

CLOD should have been awesome and led to a new Golden Age of WWII sims. But it wasn't and didn't - maybe it will lead to great mods but progress will be sloooooow. We'll have to see what happens with BOS. DCS has huge potential depending on the development cycle but at a cost that may beyond the folks I fly with but we'll have to wait and see.

But my point is that BOS is being sniped at left right and centre. Some is actually genuine critical comment. Other posts are just vindictive - people want to find fault. Mostly these are made by reference to a comparison with other games, predominantly CLOD. Hence I don't like the comparisons.

Give each game a chance to stand on its own merits - that's my thought anyway.

Hood

[aus3620]

But my point is that BOS is being sniped at left right and centre. Some is actually genuine critical comment. Other posts are just vindictive - people want to find fault. Mostly these are made by reference to a comparison with other games, predominantly CLOD. Hence I don't like the comparisons.

Give each game a chance to stand on its own merits - that's my thought anyway.



+1

Appreciate many of the positive comments from CLoD boosters re comparison with BOS, but that does not mean BOS will be universally inferior either. The jury is still out on BOS and in the short term I think it could be WW2 aviation enthusiasts best bet re development of future titles. Until final release and the inevitable first patch we should keep an open mind on the project.

[LuseKofte]

What point exactly Vranac? BOM did not happend because we the community did not fund BOB. CLOD prooved only one thing, it is not possible to build a flightsim just funding it by one sale, your point is what? That BOS ruined for BOM?
If anyone did, it was the community acted like most do against BOS now.
We Are to few, and we dont like to pay for stuff.

[Osprey]

Well 777 took money for development in advance before they even had a beta out so there is your funding. The release data was pushed waaaaay out after people handed over the cash. Had 1C done the same as 777 then BoM would've been finished a year ago, and I agree with Vranac that we'd have BoM with fixes such as AA, weather, mapmaking dev tool, collisions in trees, and probably we'd be looking at the MTO now, today. Instead, nearly 2 years on, a 65% done 'half-sim' and a split community still at war. So, if you wonder about the vitriol and bitterness, are you really surprised? I'm really bloody annoyed at the game 777 played in infiltrating and tearing it all down from the inside because I'm sad, I only do saddo flight sim war so this is my hobby. To be perfectly honest part of me really wants them to go under the bloody cuckoos.

Bring on IL2: Mediterranean from TF, and DCS WW2.

[Continu0]

I don't agree with you osprey. I dont know the wohole story behind the curtains but pointing that anger against 777 does not seem to be fair. after all, mistakes had been made by clod-developers and I believe it's save to say that luthier was not the right man to take over. So if you want to point your anger anywhere, point it towards the 1c management because they pushed out clod too early...

I as for one take bos the same way as warthunder: it brings people into flying business in the end and some of them will end up with clod if we act as a good, friendly and helpfull community. I believe TF can gather a lot of attention for 5.0 trough bos-community-channels.
Starting a war towards bos wont help cliffs and in the end, helping cliffs is what i want to do...

what happened can not be changed...

[Osprey]

There's been a war since before COD was even released for many people, it goes a long way back and it's naive to think otherwise. I put platinum money into BoS because I felt it needed a chance but I'm hopelessly disappointed and I can't be arsed to write those many reasons, but my point stands, that 777 undermined it all in order to get the pie. Do you think they suddenly picked up the contract and a team of 1C employees within a month of the cessation of BOM development like they did without talking months before in secret? It's common sense, this isn't a court where we have to provide hard evidence.

You can say I don't know, and that's true but it's quite obvious to say "1c management" really.

So to the point I made, hypothetically had 777 not stepped in and BOM been sold in advance like 777 have done, do you think that it would've been out by now or at 65%? We fly in a virtual world, this is a virtual question.

[startrekmike]

There's been a war since before COD was even released for many people, it goes a long way back and it's naive to think otherwise. I put platinum money into BoS because I felt it needed a chance but I'm hopelessly disappointed and I can't be arsed to write those many reasons, but my point stands, that 777 undermined it all in order to get the pie. Do you think they suddenly picked up the contract and a team of 1C employees within a month of the cessation of BOM development like they did without talking months before in secret? It's common sense, this isn't a court where we have to provide hard evidence.

You can say I don't know, and that's true but it's quite obvious to say "1c management" really.

So to the point I made, hypothetically had 777 not stepped in and BOM been sold in advance like 777 have done, do you think that it would've been out by now or at 65%? We fly in a virtual world, this is a virtual question.


To be really honest here, you perhaps should provide something more than your gut feeling on this because I personally find it a bit hard to believe that 777 insidiously and intentionally undermined the CloD/BoM developers, I mean, I just can't really think of a situation where that would really help them.

Until a reliable source comes forward, it will continue to be impossible to really know what happened behind the scenes but I have never got the indication that there was some sort of evil plan in motion, I never got the feeling that the 777 guys and the CloD dev's were at odds in any real way. To be blunt, most of what I have heard is rumors and hearsay from Banana forum users around the time that CloD's official development ended (the last patch being released).

The problem with your BoM conspiracy theory is that it does not really take the facts we know about 1C/Maddox's development issues into account, I mean, it is pretty clear that a lot of things went wrong with the development of Cliffs of Dover (yes, I know that TF fixed most of those issues but that was after the fact and has nothing to do with CloD's state on release and for a long time after), you don't need to be a insider in the company to see that somebody, somewhere in the Ubisoft/1C/Maddox games chain of command was clearly not doing a very good job and the resulting sales are the proof.

There are other reasons I tend to not believe that 777 was the problem, one need only look at the DCS WWII project, do you notice who is no longer in charge? Did you notice that ED had to take direct control of the project and restructure it in a lot of ways? Do you think that they did that because Luther was doing a great job?

I don't know what happened behind closed doors during the BoM development, none of us really do but I have a hard time believing that 777, a company that could barely afford to get involved in such a project without direct invitation, would insidiously usurp the CloD/BoM developers just so that they could spread their limited resources even thinner.

My personal theory is that 1C called 777 in because Rise of flight was a success overall, it was (and still is) pretty much bug free, runs fine on a range of systems out of the box (no mods required) and has not had any significant and obvious development issues. Why would 1C not want to work with them after the issues they had with the CloD release?

If I can offer a bit of advice, perhaps it is time you let your anger go on this one, thee only "war" that existed was manufactured by bitter forum users on both sides of the issue, I imagine the members of CloD and 777's dev team look at this stuff and just shake their heads at the lunacy of it all, there is no "war", it is just bitterness that some won't let go of.

[vranac]

Until a reliable source comes forward, it will continue to be impossible to really know what happened behind the scenes but I have never got the indication that there was some sort of evil plan in motion, I never got the feeling that the 777 guys and the CloD dev's were at odds in any real way. To be blunt, most of what I have heard is rumors and hearsay from Banana forum users around the time that CloD's official development ended (the last patch being released).

The problem with your BoM conspiracy theory is that it does not really take the facts we know about 1C/Maddox's development issues into account, I mean, it is pretty clear that a lot of things went wrong with the development of Cliffs of Dover (yes, I know that TF fixed most of those issues but that was after the fact and has nothing to do with CloD's state on release and for a long time after), you don't need to be a insider in the company to see that somebody, somewhere in the Ubisoft/1C/Maddox games chain of command was clearly not doing a very good job and the resulting sales are the proof.

There are other reasons I tend to not believe that 777 was the problem, one need only look at the DCS WWII project, do you notice who is no longer in charge? Did you notice that ED had to take direct control of the project and restructure it in a lot of ways? Do you think that they did that because Luther was doing a great job?

I don't know what happened behind closed doors during the BoM development, none of us really do but I have a hard time believing that 777, a company that could barely afford to get involved in such a project without direct invitation, would insidiously usurp the CloD/BoM developers just so that they could spread their limited resources even thinner.

My personal theory is that 1C called 777 in because Rise of flight was a success overall, it was (and still is) pretty much bug free, runs fine on a range of systems out of the box (no mods required) and has not had any significant and obvious development issues. Why would 1C not want to work with them after the issues they had with the CloD release?

If I can offer a bit of advice, perhaps it is time you let your anger go on this one, thee only "war" that existed was manufactured by bitter forum users on both sides of the issue, I imagine the members of CloD and 777's dev team look at this stuff and just shake their heads at the lunacy of it all, there is no "war", it is just bitterness that some won't let go of.

BoM alfa was set for early 2013. All interested could see screenshots of 109's ,LaGG's, il2's flying and shooting. MG team was working on that with full forces.
You can find Luthiers words, that fixing CloD won't bring them one penny. But they were fixing it and released patches regularly.
And then, suddenly a few months before tha release an axe falls down.
So, 1C was financing one project, the engine was polished, a lot of bugs solved, optimizatoin ( I noticed 25% increase in fps with one of the patches)
and then they trashed it and started to finance another project for two years.
OK, that's legitimate business decision and in a few months we will know was it good or bad.

But we are not gaining anythig from that decision. No, we won't get hi-res textures that we already have. No, we wan't get advanced DM, we will get one on the level of old il2.
We won't get access to FMB either, because we are stupid and don't know how to use it.
We won't get possibility to fly on a server with 100 other pilots. Maybe 64, with desert on the ground I suppose.

RoF is sucessfull ? I was just looking for Loft's opinion about that. He have said that RoF was unobtainable for them a long time before they started with BoS.
Sorry I couldn't find the link, but I hope you could trust me on that one.
And there were a lot of bitter words toward MG team and Oleg and Ilya esspecially when they were asked, why we can have xxx, when we have it already in il2 and CloD.

And for your info Jason and the head of 1C are friends. I saw that info on sukhoi from one respectable member.

On this forum there are some people who certainly knows much more about what happened.

And your mentioning Ilya is not working on DCS:WWII is a bit low. Have you noticed a difference what will backers get after that change ?
RRG was responsible for 3D work, have you noticed any delay in that part?

[LuseKofte]

This is conspiracy theories. If its true I guess1 C is to blame
For what it worth I would prefer BOM

[startrekmike]

BoM alfa was set for early 2013. All interested could see screenshots of 109's ,LaGG's, il2's flying and shooting. MG team was working on that with full forces.
You can find Luthiers words, that fixing CloD won't bring them one penny. But they were fixing it and released patches regularly.
And then, suddenly a few months before tha release an axe falls down.
So, 1C was financing one project, the engine was polished, a lot of bugs solved, optimizatoin ( I noticed 25% increase in fps with one of the patches)
and then they trashed it and started to finance another project for two years.
OK, that's legitimate business decision and in a few months we will know was it good or bad.

But we are not gaining anythig from that decision. No, we won't get hi-res textures that we already have. No, we wan't get advanced DM, we will get one on the level of old il2.
We won't get access to FMB either, because we are stupid and don't know how to use it.
We won't get possibility to fly on a server with 100 other pilots. Maybe 64, with desert on the ground I suppose.

RoF is sucessfull ? I was just looking for Loft's opinion about that. He have said that RoF was unobtainable for them a long time before they started with BoS.
Sorry I couldn't find the link, but I hope you could trust me on that one.
And there were a lot of bitter words toward MG team and Oleg and Ilya esspecially when they were asked, why we can have xxx, when we have it already in il2 and CloD.

And for your info Jason and the head of 1C are friends. I saw that info on sukhoi from one respectable member.

On this forum there are some people who certainly knows much more about what happened.

And your mentioning Ilya is not working on DCS:WWII is a bit low. Have you noticed a difference what will backers get after that change ?
RRG was responsible for 3D work, have you noticed any delay in that part?


In all honesty, I spent some time digging in various forums when the whole mess was going on and there was a lot of hearsay and talk but not a lot of actual proof from the mouths of those actually involved.

The thing I can't ignore in all this is how badly the release for CloD was handled, you can tell me all about the exact percentage increase you got in FPS after one official patch or another but at the end of the day, it was perhaps not (always) a unplayable mess but it was a mess either way and the TF team is doing a good job at fixing that mess but there is still work to be done.

To put it simply, CloD was not a good product on release and first impressions are lasting impressions when you are a game publisher, there is a reason it still is not doing very well sales wise, there is a reason that some who waited a long time for it went back to 1946 after seeing it's condition on release.

Do you really think that the guys running 1C did not see the slow sales, the mixed but fairly negative reviews due to it's buggy and incomplete state? I don't, I think they saw this and said "We need to start making some changes around here, something has to give" and since the Maddox guys were hard at work on yet another sim based on that engine, I don't really blame 1C for looking at that project with a lot of skepticism.

As far as Jason being good friends with the head of 1C, I have no doubts but I don't think that is enough to make me really believe that they were planning the end of BoM over glasses of whiskey while laughing maniacally.

I have read Loft's words on ROF and he is right, ROF has no real future at this point since it has sold about as many copies as it is going to sell, this is perhaps due to the fact that it is not a new sim by any measure and has pretty much grabbed as many users as it can or perhaps it or perhaps it was due to it being somewhat poorly marketed but either way, I think that 1C saw 777 as a company that was clearly able to manage a project without letting it get out of control, the 777 dev's have proven with ROF that they could set up a project, lay out clear goals and stick to them, this is attractive to a publisher and I think you can understand why.

As far as 1C/777's words about Ilya and Oleg, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that they were talking crap to start fights when you ignore the context, when the BoS forums were opened, A LOT of people came on there with a giant chip on their shoulder, they picked a lot of fights and used very specific language to get negative attention, part of that was the idea that anything that was not exactly like CloD was somehow a massive step back and any choice that they made was wrong if it did not perfectly match what they had in CloD.

This kind stuff was tiring to read, it was not constructive critique, it was not them offering help to make the sim better, it was bitter and vindictive and often went to points where the posters would start accusing the dev's of being casual arcade game makers or other such hyperbole.

The 777 guys did not say much initially but you could see that it was getting pretty bad and they were started to get really tired of it, heck, a lot of folks on that board were tired of it. The comments that they made were clearly targeted not at the Maddox team but at the users who could not control themselves on the forums, the ones who were there to start trouble and not offer constructive or useful critique.

Sadly, moderation had to be stepped up because the situation was out of control, this is why some complain about the level of moderation it has now when it kinda had to go that way to keep the boards free of anger and pointless arguments.

The departure of Ilya from DCS WWII is worth mentioning whether you think it is a low blow or not, it indicates a pattern and the fact that the project is still moving at a steady clip proves nothing other than that ED was able to take control of the project with a minimum of downtime. It is also worth noticing how much the prices changed when ED took over, you might think that they are being greedy and that Ilya was being very generous but the reality is that each of those aircraft were going to cost much more to make than the original prices would pay for, ED knew this and corrected the problem.

Now, you list some thing that I think need to be addressed.

First and foremost, I agree about 1C/777's handling of the FMB (I was one of the loudest voices asking for the FMB when they originally were not going to publicly release it) but it has been made clear that they are going to release it a bit after the release of the main product and since 777 has not ever lied, I am included to believe them.

The lack of high res textures really does not bother me personally but maybe that is because I can see the appeal of selling a product that a wider range of systems can run easily, on top of that, lets not pretend that CloD did not have some texture issues when it first came out, I remember looking out on the wings of my spitfire Mk I and seeing nothing but blobs of undefined texture because of a patch that lowered the quality for the sake of performance.

Finally on your list, I see you bring up the server player counts, it is indeed true that you can't have as many players on BoS as you can on CloD but at the same time, I have already made some lengthy comments as to why that is not as huge a issue as it is made into, it really only effects those looking for massive sandbox style multiplayer (like the ATAG server) but it still allows very realistic, smaller, focused missions. If you want to make player counts on servers a victory for you, go ahead but in the end, I don't think people are going to look at both products and go "hmmm, CloD lets me have 100+ players on a server and BoS only lets me have 64, clearly BoS is less of a simulation!"


After reading this, you might think I was some sort of 777 fanboy that is loyal to them until the end, don't worry, I am used to it, I had some vindictive folks report me for "advertising" on the banana forums just because I would not take sides against 777 (or CloD's developers for that matter). With that said, I came into the flight sim scene late so Clod was already out (though not for very long) and I had not had a chance to form any sort of loyalty to either Maddox games or 777, I just saw things as I saw them, did my own research about the whole "war" and found it largely just a bunch of people on forums getting angry over rumor and hearsay, I choose not to get involved in such things in any personal way because I can happily enjoy stuff that 777 makes just as much as I enjoy CloD or DCS.

So if you can produce pure, undeniable proof that Jason conspired with 1C to kill CloD/BoM, go ahead and post it and I will happily change my mind but until I see that proof, the whole thing is nothing but rumor and hearsay on internet forums and I don't place a lot of value in that on any forum.

[Osprey]

Finally on your list, I see you bring up the server player counts, it is indeed true that you can't have as many players on BoS as you can on CloD but at the same time, I have already made some lengthy comments as to why that is not as huge a issue as it is made into, it really only effects those looking for massive sandbox style multiplayer (like the ATAG server) but it still allows very realistic, smaller, focused missions. If you want to make player counts on servers a victory for you, go ahead but in the end, I don't think people are going to look at both products and go "hmmm, CloD lets me have 100+ players on a server and BoS only lets me have 64, clearly BoS is less of a simulation!"



You've made a long post and with many decent points but tbh I can't be bothered to go through it all. I said what I think and stand by it and equally you have no proof that I'm wrong so your argument holds as much water as mine. Anyway, I just I wanted to pick up on the comment above really.

My group is a group, not a squadron, we are three squadrons and three staffel, a wing and a gruppe, and we are full. Active members too, not a big list of people on a roster who aren't about anymore. Every Sunday we pile about 65 pilots average into 1 mission which is lavishly caked with another 40+ AI and the cherry on top is all of the wonderful airfield objects and FMB art we put into these missions, plus the historical RDF system in place, and our ASR system. So you see that supporting these numbers is a dealbreaker for my group and it'll be the same for ED unfortunately, I really hope they crack it. COD can handle it on a modest machine perfectly well but we'd destroy DCS and BOS if we attempted a full turnout. I asked Jason about such support after I bought Platinum, boy I was disappointed with the response.

View my sig and check out the many mission videos on our website (or in the Sim Theatre) and you can see those numbers, full Wing's taking off from Kenley together. It's not bragging, I'm proud that we have such a strong group but I'd very much doubt there is a life in BOS for us - the game just ain't up to snuff on the server side even if it was in the air. Sandbox df server? Not interested, we do historical missions and they are big and fat.

Just to finish positive, here's a treat we made for the community, for COD and for us. Like I said, big numbers as WW2 was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6u4JxgE2S4

~S~

[startrekmike]

You've made a post so long and with many decent points and frankly I have better things to do than go through it all. I said what I think and stand by it. Equally you have no proof that I'm wrong, your argument holds as much water as mine. Anyway, I just I wanted to pick up on the comment above.

My group is a group, not a squadron, we are three squadrons and three staffel, a wing and a gruppe, and we are full. Active members too, not a big list of people on a roster who aren't about anymore. Every Sunday we pile about 65 pilots average into 1 mission which is lavishly caked with another 40+ AI and the cherry on top is all of the wonderful airfield objects and FMB art we put into these missions, plus the historical RDF system in place, and our ASR system. So you see that supporting these numbers is a dealbreaker for my group and it'll be the same for ED unfortunately, I really hope they crack it. COD can handle it on a modest machine perfectly well but we'd destroy DCS and BOS if we attempted a full turnout. I asked Jason about such support after I bought Platinum, boy I was disappointed with the response.

View my sig and check out the many mission videos on our website (or in the Sim Theatre) and you can see those numbers, full Wing's taking off from Kenley together. It's not bragging, I'm proud that we have such a strong group but I'd very much doubt there is a life in BOS for us - the game just ain't up to snuff on the server side even if it was in the air. Sandbox df server? Not interested, we do historical missions and they are big and fat.

Just to finish positive, here's a treat we made for the community, for COD and for us. Like I said, big numbers as WW2 was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6u4JxgE2S4

~S~



I suppose I have a different view since I don't often fly with many people at all, perhaps four to six normally with more on occasion, either way, numbers like that make BoS (when there is a FMB) and DCS pretty much perfect for our purposes, likewise, CloD is also good for us since those small missions are just as viable as the larger ones.

Perhaps I just take issue to the player count being such a big deal because it is so often used as a reason for CloD being objectively better than any other sim always without really considering that there are missions that are extremely realistic and very fun that don't involve those player numbers.

As I have said before, the amount of players that CloD can support is indeed one of the things that it does really well but every sim has it's strengths and weaknesses and I have room on my hard drive for all of them, there is no best for me, just what suits my needs most for the moment.

[Osprey]

Understood, but as you can see for us, it's a showstopper

[vranac]

Oh, that was a long one.


In all honesty, I spent some time digging in various forums when the whole mess was going on and there was a lot of hearsay and talk but not a lot of actual proof from the mouths of those actually involved.

The thing I can't ignore in all this is how badly the release for CloD was handled, you can tell me all about the exact percentage increase you got in FPS after one official patch or another but at the end of the day, it was perhaps not (always) a unplayable mess but it was a mess either way and the TF team is doing a good job at fixing that mess but there is still work to be done.

To put it simply, CloD was not a good product on release and first impressions are lasting impressions when you are a game publisher, there is a reason it still is not doing very well sales wise, there is a reason that some who waited a long time for it went back to 1946 after seeing it's condition on release.

Do you really think that the guys running 1C did not see the slow sales, the mixed but fairly negative reviews due to it's buggy and incomplete state? I don't, I think they saw this and said "We need to start making some changes around here, something has to give" and since the Maddox guys were hard at work on yet another sim based on that engine, I don't really blame 1C for looking at that project with a lot of skepticism.

CloD was completely playable for me from the release with a midrange graphic card and with all eye candy on max, just with trees and houses on a lower settings (that's a load on CPU).
Those negative reviews came from the people who didn't wan't to upgrade or a PC illiterate ones. Can you point at some game breaking bugs ?

Again, 1C pushed the release. And again, they continued to finance MG team for more than a year. What do you think they were paying them for, to fix CloD?

Expectations from 1C are pretty high and in a few months we will see if they were realistic. I don't think they are.




As far as Jason being good friends with the head of 1C, I have no doubts but I don't think that is enough to make me really believe that they were planning the end of BoM over glasses of whiskey while laughing maniacally.

I have read Loft's words on ROF and he is right, ROF has no real future at this point since it has sold about as many copies as it is going to sell, this is perhaps due to the fact that it is not a new sim by any measure and has pretty much grabbed as many users as it can or perhaps it or perhaps it was due to it being somewhat poorly marketed but either way, I think that 1C saw 777 as a company that was clearly able to manage a project without letting it get out of control, the 777 dev's have proven with ROF that they could set up a project, lay out clear goals and stick to them, this is attractive to a publisher and I think you can understand why.

As far as 1C/777's words about Ilya and Oleg, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that they were talking crap to start fights when you ignore the context, when the BoS forums were opened, A LOT of people came on there with a giant chip on their shoulder, they picked a lot of fights and used very specific language to get negative attention, part of that was the idea that anything that was not exactly like CloD was somehow a massive step back and any choice that they made was wrong if it did not perfectly match what they had in CloD.

This kind stuff was tiring to read, it was not constructive critique, it was not them offering help to make the sim better, it was bitter and vindictive and often went to points where the posters would start accusing the dev's of being casual arcade game makers or other such hyperbole.

The 777 guys did not say much initially but you could see that it was getting pretty bad and they were started to get really tired of it, heck, a lot of folks on that board were tired of it. The comments that they made were clearly targeted not at the Maddox team but at the users who could not control themselves on the forums, the ones who were there to start trouble and not offer constructive or useful critique.

Sadly, moderation had to be stepped up because the situation was out of control, this is why some complain about the level of moderation it has now when it kinda had to go that way to keep the boards free of anger and pointless arguments.

I'm not talking about the English forums at all. You don't have almost any info there. On the Russian forums critics are allowed. Loft and Han and even Petrovich were writing there a lot from the beginning. Remember when Loft visited a few months ago and dispersed the illusions ? Search for it if you have missed it.




The departure of Ilya from DCS WWII is worth mentioning whether you think it is a low blow or not, it indicates a pattern and the fact that the project is still moving at a steady clip proves nothing other than that ED was able to take control of the project with a minimum of downtime. It is also worth noticing how much the prices changed when ED took over, you might think that they are being greedy and that Ilya was being very generous but the reality is that each of those aircraft were going to cost much more to make than the original prices would pay for, ED knew this and corrected the problem.

We don't know what the deal was between them. I think we can agree that ED knew what was Ilya offering to the backers. They knew how much money he has.
I'll repeat myself again, RRG was doing 3D modeling.
Have you noticed any delay in that part ?
What I have noticed was the problem that some of the backers haven't received their P51 keys. I don't know who was suposed to provide them but I know who has them.
And the other thing I know, that was a huge sale for a niche sim like DCS.


Now, you list some thing that I think need to be addressed.

First and foremost, I agree about 1C/777's handling of the FMB (I was one of the loudest voices asking for the FMB when they originally were not going to publicly release it) but it has been made clear that they are going to release it a bit after the release of the main product and since 777 has not ever lied, I am included to believe them.

The lack of high res textures really does not bother me personally but maybe that is because I can see the appeal of selling a product that a wider range of systems can run easily, on top of that, lets not pretend that CloD did not have some texture issues when it first came out, I remember looking out on the wings of my spitfire Mk I and seeing nothing but blobs of undefined texture because of a patch that lowered the quality for the sake of performance.

Finally on your list, I see you bring up the server player counts, it is indeed true that you can't have as many players on BoS as you can on CloD but at the same time, I have already made some lengthy comments as to why that is not as huge a issue as it is made into, it really only effects those looking for massive sandbox style multiplayer (like the ATAG server) but it still allows very realistic, smaller, focused missions. If you want to make player counts on servers a victory for you, go ahead but in the end, I don't think people are going to look at both products and go "hmmm, CloD lets me have 100+ players on a server and BoS only lets me have 64, clearly BoS is less of a simulation!"

About FMB, they said not a bit later but when (and if) they finish a new ME. Loft also have said that it's a hard and complicated task and that no one is working on that.
They will think about it if the project will be successful. They have two programmers.

I'm not familiar with RoF and it's development, but I know that they promised to fix the FM problems and they didn't.
Is that a lie ?
BoS devs say that they don't have problems with a graphic performance but with a CPU performance. Why they don't introduce hi-res textures for the people with hi-end cards ?
They have the textures finished. I'm not a professional but a texture is a texture. Even old il2 engine can handle hi-res ones (check mods).

Operation Uranus was enormous military operation. How can you simulate that with 50 pilots and 20 tanks ?



After reading this, you might think I was some sort of 777 fanboy that is loyal to them until the end, don't worry, I am used to it, I had some vindictive folks report me for "advertising" on the banana forums just because I would not take sides against 777 (or CloD's developers for that matter). With that said, I came into the flight sim scene late so Clod was already out (though not for very long) and I had not had a chance to form any sort of loyalty to either Maddox games or 777, I just saw things as I saw them, did my own research about the whole "war" and found it largely just a bunch of people on forums getting angry over rumor and hearsay, I choose not to get involved in such things in any personal way because I can happily enjoy stuff that 777 makes just as much as I enjoy CloD or DCS.

So if you can produce pure, undeniable proof that Jason conspired with 1C to kill CloD/BoM, go ahead and post it and I will happily change my mind but until I see that proof, the whole thing is nothing but rumor and hearsay on internet forums and I don't place a lot of value in that on any forum.

I told you already that some people on this forum know what happened. They won't share the proofs because people ( devs) who were involved didn't want to comment anything (you heard for NDA I suppose).
Who knows, maybe Oleg and Ilya will write memoirs some time :whacky4:

Cheers.

[startrekmike]

Oh, that was a long one.



CloD was completely playable for me from the release with a midrange graphic card and with all eye candy on max, just with trees and houses on a lower settings (that's a load on CPU).
Those negative reviews came from the people who didn't wan't to upgrade or a PC illiterate ones. Can you point at some game breaking bugs ?

Again, 1C pushed the release. And again, they continued to finance MG team for more than a year. What do you think they were paying them for, to fix CloD?

Expectations from 1C are pretty high and in a few months we will see if they were realistic. I don't think they are.





I'm not talking about the English forums at all. You don't have almost any info there. On the Russian forums critics are allowed. Loft and Han and even Petrovich were writing there a lot from the beginning. Remember when Loft visited a few months ago and dispersed the illusions ? Search for it if you have missed it.





We don't know what the deal was between them. I think we can agree that ED knew what was Ilya offering to the backers. They knew how much money he has.
I'll repeat myself again, RRG was doing 3D modeling.
Have you noticed any delay in that part ?
What I have noticed was the problem that some of the backers haven't received their P51 keys. I don't know who was suposed to provide them but I know who has them.
And the other thing I know, that was a huge sale for a niche sim like DCS.



About FMB, they said not a bit later but when (and if) they finish a new ME. Loft also have said that it's a hard and complicated task and that no one is working on that.
They will think about it if the project will be successful. They have two programmers.

I'm not familiar with RoF and it's development, but I know that they promised to fix the FM problems and they didn't.
Is that a lie ?
BoS devs say that they don't have problems with a graphic performance but with a CPU performance. Why they don't introduce hi-res textures for the people with hi-end cards ?
They have the textures finished. I'm not a professional but a texture is a texture. Even old il2 engine can handle hi-res ones (check mods).

Operation Uranus was enormous military operation. How can you simulate that with 50 pilots and 20 tanks ?




I told you already that some people on this forum know what happened. They won't share the proofs because people ( devs) who were involved didn't want to comment anything (you heard for NDA I suppose).
Who knows, maybe Oleg and Ilya will write memoirs some time :whacky4:

Cheers.



I am not going to get into a fight here, this debate has been raging on and on and I find it so damn silly that I don't even want to keep it going, it just seems so pointless considering what is done is done.

It is great that CloD worked great for you and I love how you dismiss any critique from actual professional game journalists as either not wanting to upgrade (because game journalists all use crap PC's apparently) or just being PC illiterate (because that totally makes sense). More to the point, even when I did upgrade my system (just for CloD really), I still found that while the performance was better, the bugs and major flight model issues were not, lets not forget that time when you could not get a plane to it's actual altitude limits for some odd reason.

Before you get all defensive here, I enjoy CloD now, I enjoy it now that it's major issues have largely been fixed by either the last patch or TF but before either of those, the sim had problems that were far, far deeper than just performance issues and the reviews reflected that, not just user reviews but official reviews as well.

I won't get any further into the 777/CloD/BoM/BoS thing because (as I said before) it goes nowhere and means nothing at this point, what is done is done and harboring bitterness won't help anybody, if someone on this forum has the magical proof and they refuse to release it, well, it might as well not exist.

As far as BoS's mission editor goes, I think you may need to update your information before you try to correct people, they have made it very clear that the release of the FMB would come after release and it would either come in the form that it is in right now (if they can't afford to simplify it) or they will release a better version (if they can afford to simplify it), this is all on the forums, you need only seek it out.

I don't know if 777 promised FM revisions, I know that they have made it clear that they are not a priority at this stage but they could have made those promises before I arrived on the forums so I can't really speak on that one.


Look, I have made it clear before that I have made a choice to not take sides in the CloD vs every other sim debate, I think the whole debate is kinda silly since I enjoy DCS, ROF, BoS and CloD pretty much equally but for different reasons, I refuse to hold one sim up over the others just because I happen to like it more and I refuse to let myself get further embroiled in this circular debate.


So lets just agree that we each have our own feelings on the situation and move on with our lives with a little less bitterness.