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AKA_Recon
Aug-26-2014, 20:12
I'm saying this because I don't want the 'you are biased' comments... Now, I have played ROF, IL2, CoD (I used to call it CloD because CoD is 'Call of Duty' but I just found out that is incorrect!) and the controls in IL2 and CloD seem very spot on.

When I mentioned this in BoS forum awhile ago, I was told BoS was more realistic and that IL2/CloD is 'flying on rails'.

So I tried BoS again last night with latest update, and BoS feels very 'mushy' and often times like my plane is on the point of a triangle.

Is this just a controls issue ? Is this more realistic ?

I'd ask on Il2sturmovik forum, but it might get locked if I do :)

Injerin
Aug-26-2014, 20:25
your spot on it sucks! I understand its not finished, but I must say its just a step up from War Thunder. I can't stand the timers and the max fields myself ( I want to fly what i paid for not be forced into flying a side just to make the teams even). I think they need to break away from the ROF model, Only because ROF is slowly dieing and so will BOS if it follows the same path. As far as compairing the flight models is pointless CLOD is better.... hands down.

aus3620
Aug-26-2014, 23:07
Perhaps the most argumentative subject in flight sims - FM!

I think I understand where you are coming from re moving from CLoD to BOS. I thought the same thing when I first moved over. It does feel different.
I do think that BOS models power stalls better than CLoD (or what I understand as power stalls - I'm no RL pilot). And crosswinds on landing/take-off. And aircraft turbulence.

The general consensus of opinion seems to be that DCS has good FM and the DCS FM guy now works for 1C/777.

Next time you are playing BOS, go into a dive/accelerate, you will feel (really see, as in more direct response to minor change in the joystick) the controls stiffen. When flying slowly - mushy.

I have sailed small boats for over 30 years. I bought a new type last year. I felt like a complete newbie! (and probably looked like one). Same as flight sims, although you might have thousands of hours up, you still have to expect you will need to get some hours up on the new sim before you "get up to speed." Part of the fun of trying a new flight sim/sailing boat!

The M stands for "model", not "Must be like this!"

ATAG_Colander
Aug-26-2014, 23:23
I do not have BOS so a quick Q regarding turbulence...
Do the BOS missions have wind at all altitudes?
The reason I ask is because, at least in ATAG, the missions do not have high altitude winds enabled, only ground level for takeoff/landing so that might be something to try to compare apples to apples.

LuseKofte
Aug-27-2014, 00:41
well then I must be a moron, because I find some of the russian plane realistic even better , but your description might describe my opinion on how the 109 is.

Since I will be banned going the same way about many things in COD I will not bring a discussion further.

But Injerin it does not suck, it is not similar to war thunder.

Chuck_Owl
Aug-27-2014, 00:56
your spot on it sucks! I understand its not finished, but I must say its just a step up from War Thunder. I can't stand the timers and the max fields myself ( I want to fly what i paid for not be forced into flying a side just to make the teams even). I think they need to break away from the ROF model, Only because ROF is slowly dieing and so will BOS if it follows the same path. As far as compairing the flight models is pointless CLOD is better.... hands down.

Most of your points (timers and max fields) are server-side settings that can be modified. I just flew a long bomber sortie with a couple of folks and it was a lot of fun. No auto-balance, no timers. What you might have experienced is the main "beta servers" that have settings that are clearly not that suited to squadron play and catering more to airquake. However, with the Syndicate and US Eagles, I must say that their servers seem entirely capable and fun. Try it, and you might even like it.

About the FM debate, give me comparative charts of flight models first and then we might have a constructive discussion. I heard real-life pilots say that they liked it and they felt it behaved like a real airplane, while others were saying the exact opposite. Go figure.

@Colander: We did high-altitude bombing yesterday on the Syndicate server with Peshkas and there were winds at different altitudes of different intensity. Aiming with crosswind is just a nightmare because the higher you aim, the more your bombs will drift away from your target. Hooves was targeting an artillery battery from 4 km altitude and he had entered wind, orientation, speed and altitude parameters correctly. However, because wind speed and turbulence changed with altitude, the bombs drifted away waaaay more than we anticipated. Also, keeping close formation was quite the experience. After a 60-minute-long flight, Cujo and I found ourselves sweating and with our legs hurting because of all the work we had to do to keep the planes trimmed and formed up. For a similar mission in CloD with say, a Blennie, I never found myself having to work so much to keep my plane straight and level with a formation of bombers. We had to keep compensating as long as we climbed.

aus3620
Aug-27-2014, 01:00
Do the BOS missions have wind at all altitudes?


Good question. The short answer is I don't know the details on the wind model. I guess this will become clear when the Mission Builder is released.
Could be interesting for he-111 missions! The he-111 feels nice in BOS. Looking forward to some crewed missions.

I have always thought the "atmosphere" (as in what we fly through) is the missing element in flight sims. I've had rougher flights flying commercial airlines than what is depicted in sims to date.

LuseKofte
Aug-27-2014, 04:30
I did not know syndicate got a server up. Where can I find it. This is the thing I have been waiting for.
Finally a real alternative to clod

Skoshi_Tiger
Aug-27-2014, 05:20
I'm not sure. In single player mode, at least, the He111's seem very fragile when attacked by cannon armed fighters. It might not be such an enjoyable experience.

Leifr
Aug-27-2014, 06:17
I did not know syndicate got a server up. Where can I find it. This is the thing I have been waiting for.
Finally a real alternative to clod

Multiplayer chap!
Hopped on last night shortly after server launch with a couple of friends. Went hunting in the 109s for the Russian artillery positions, found and strafed. There were a few folk ferrying the Heinkels into the German pocket for supply runs too, it was fantastic experience and an excellent sign of things to come.

AKA_Recon
Aug-28-2014, 07:59
my other thought was perhaps more related to the joystick configuration - perhaps in BoS I need to work with the settings to get less of this ?


ie. maybe the deadzone is too much for me and it feels mushy, and maybe my rudder is too sensitive causing that 'swinging' effect.

I'm also not used to the ability to modify the camera views, so that is something else I need to wrap my head around.

I know in ROF I learned to use less stick and more rudder - that was a big shift from IL2:1946 - now that move, I did feel like I was flying vs. 'being on rails'

I do tend to fly the 109 the most when I'm trying things out.

Hood
Aug-28-2014, 17:15
All you need to do is get the right joystick settings for your stick. Until the last few updates and getting my curves right I experienced the same thing, but now it is far better albeit still with a sense of flight.

Comparing it to CloD (which is a fine nomenclature) is really not possible. In fact, comparing it to most flight sims is not really possible as we can all set our control settings to reduce out of envelope commands to a minimum. For example the DCS FW190 seems very docile to me now. I'd love to know what they all feel like with no joystick tweaking but with a full length joystick.

For what it's worth, I do feel aircraft in CloD fly on rails but that might be a function of experience or correct control settings - I don't get the sense that I have to fly the things very carefully. Maybe that is how it was in reality, or maybe they should feel as if they're on the point of a triangle but with bum on seat you have far better control perception.

As for Injerin, take those blinkers off. Maybe CloD has numbers that stack up for accurate climb etc but maybe less parameters are modelled. So, in effect, you have on paper an accurate FM but it doesn't represent the feeling of flight as accurately. Or maybe CloD's "feel" is neutered by lack of weather or by server settings or something.

Who knows, but one thing I do know is that for the devloper's purposes and testing the net code in a BETA the side balancing isn't so bad and it gives you a chance to shoot your mates down and then crow about it. Don't forget that when the server software is released you can have the settings you want.

Hood

Edit: Why don't you ask on the BOS forum - you'd probably get more constructive responses. Don't let the propoganda put you off.

aus3620
Aug-28-2014, 18:49
Do the BOS missions have wind at all altitudes?


From Chuck's excellent PE-2 guide.

11302]

Skoshi_Tiger
Aug-29-2014, 06:48
As for Injerin, take those blinkers off.


Wow! I still can't get my head around you making that statement!




Maybe CloD has numbers that stack up for accurate climb etc but maybe less parameters are modelled.

Hood, do you have any evidence of this or is it just your opinion? CoD gives everyone the ability to get these parameters and log them with a script. It's a pity that Bo$ (which is a fine nomenclature by your standard) doesn't give this functionality. If it did it would settle a lot of arguments about comparing flight models.

Hood
Aug-29-2014, 08:33
It's obvious there are blinkers because there is no reflection on the reason for things being as they are in a game still in development.

And yes it is my conjecture just as opinions about FMs can only be conjecture or subjective opinion in games be it DCS, CloD or BOS. For example my opinion is that BOS gives a better feel of flight. CloD on the other hand is too simplistic in its feel. Both are subjective opinions.

As an aside, CloD is fine nomenclature as it uses the initials but differentiates between Call of Duty i.e. COD. Bo$ is a childish nomenclature.

Hood

LBR=H.Ostermann
Aug-29-2014, 08:33
S!

I remember the day that IL-2 1946 4.01(2?) beta come with the universal flight model upgrade, that patch give us "wobble" like the FM in Rof/Bos, but we have a "big rage wave" in the forums, later the "problem" was solved. :goofy

If the engine of Il-2 1946 can do you it, maybe the engine of Cliffs of Dover can do it too.

9./JG52 Ziegler
Aug-29-2014, 09:47
I like them both and for differing reasons that add up to some of the same reasons. Errrr:grandpa

FM's are always going to be different between sims (IMO). I am a RL pilot in both rotor and fixed wing although it's been quite a while in rotor. That gives me something to compare to and in all honesty, none of them are like the real thing because we are missing a dimension, and it's an importent one that involves feel through out one's body translated to brain, or seat of the pants as one might say.

That said, you have a sort of 2 dimensional situation that requires allot of stick time to master. I for one am glad for it. I would not want it to be easy in any one sim nor be able to easily transition from one to the other. The fact that there is a good sized learning curve is makes these great fun to try and master. Between these two (and DSC) all three fly "differently" IMO. I'm not or rather can't say which one is "right" per se, but rather that you will need skills and stick time in all of them to be competent in any of them. The frustration probably comes in when a pilot whom is decent in one sim, flys another and finds themselves lacking. Got to be the sims fault :) Stick Time :thumbsup:

Hood
Aug-29-2014, 10:23
Precisely which is why it is frustrating that people want to knock BOS by reference to CloD. All flight sims have pluses and minuses.

I just don't get whatever it is that makes people foam at the mouth about BOS.

Hood

LuseKofte
Aug-29-2014, 12:17
I like cod, but I find the Russian planes in BOS more realistic, rollrate ok might be off. But the feel and punishment for not playing attention just feel better in BOS , that is my subjective opinion. Tiger if you want me to accept your subjective opinion, you need to accept others.
I find it a bit hard to take your posting for anything other than trolling since you call it bo$

hnbdgr
Aug-29-2014, 13:39
I do not have BOS so a quick Q regarding turbulence...
Do the BOS missions have wind at all altitudes?
The reason I ask is because, at least in ATAG, the missions do not have high altitude winds enabled, only ground level for takeoff/landing so that might be something to try to compare apples to apples.

I think it might be a good idea to turn them on! is there a major reason why they are turned off?

ATAG_Colander
Aug-29-2014, 14:02
I think it might be a good idea to turn them on! is there a major reason why they are turned off?

The only reason I know is so the FM could match historic values. If you have tail wind, the speeds will change.
Now that we are (I hope) over the FM issues, we could add wind and gusts at all altitudes.

vranac
Aug-29-2014, 16:12
Precisely which is why it is frustrating that people want to knock BOS by reference to CloD. All flight sims have pluses and minuses.

I just don't get whatever it is that makes people foam at the mouth about BOS.

Hood

And what are pluses of BoS when you compare it with other sims?

I don't want to hear about your personal likes for a feeling of flight because I don't care about it.
My good friend who started flying kites, then finished military training on prop planes has completely different opinion than you and even if he likes RoF FM very much.
He said that BoS FM is wrong.
There are other RL pilots claiming similar things and all of them stress out the same FM problems.

Other pluses ?

LuseKofte
Aug-29-2014, 16:33
Vranac you are $$$$ unbelievable. Don't start with that my friend is a pilot crap.
I frankly don't believe it, there is not a plane in cod that is even close to the real thing, and the same goes for BOS.
And you have never had any interest of this game.
The thing is, none here would fly the sim if we had to deal with the real thing. Do you really think we are interested in your personal opinion after stating your not interested in ours? That would make it to a monolog

Pilot have one thing only in their favor, the feel of flight, none of them have ever flown any of the planes we talk about, I have been in control of a cessna several times, and a Robinson chopper once.
This will not bring me any favor in FM talk, neither would it do for your friend. cod got a great deal of realistic feel to it, but the stall , turns and overall physics are better in BOS , (yes you are right it is my personal opinion) But I prefer fly cod because it is played so very well in multiplayer. The pilots in cod make this sim spectacular.
But I ask you this Vranac, you have never tried this sim, why in gods name do you hate it. It is just a game.

ATAG_Colander
Aug-29-2014, 16:45
Closed the thread before being forced to take other actions.

Enough with the personal attacks.