View Full Version : People don't seem to like the idea BoS is a game...
heinkill
Sep-30-2014, 11:29
BoS will be launching with a simplified campaign system using a random mission generator, requiring in game points to unlock skins and mods.
I used to be a troglodyte who railed against grinding for points, unlocks, and extra content in games - just as I used to rail against my kids spending so much time on screens instead of books - but this is just one of those things I now accept.
Grinding, unlocks, free-to-play/pay-to-win, micro content purchases: these are the new gaming norm. As the devs said, "The guys who want a certain type of deep role-playing campaign are not the average customer any more in this genre unfortunately. I'm one of the old school types myself too, but its not easy making a popular flying game these days with simply the older game-play designs."
Note, he didn't call it a flight sim but rather 'a popular flying game', the same terminology Gaijin uses about its War Thunder title. In the video on the SP game, the devs went to pains to point out they were consciously sacrificing historical accuracy for gameplay fun.
You have to accept that 777 has taken a 'like it or leave it' approach and their priority here has been to get fast to market, with a product that will shift some units by tapping into the current audience for 'flying games'. Not to develop the best flight sim ever. So you get nice white boring landscape (easy on the PC specs and not overtaxing the graphics engine), simpler FMs, hollywood effects, non story driven, non dynamic single player campaign design and a points system to unlock content.
I think it's a reasonable halfway point in the game universe between War Thunder/WoWarplanes and IL2 '46, CoD or DCS.
Maybe what is getting a lot of people's pants in a pickle is the (ab)use of the venerable IL2 brand on something which the developers admit is a 'flying game' rather than a sim?
H
When I gave them $100 I was under the idiotic impression it would be a sim, not merely a game. Still, once bitten twice shy and all that.
They'll not get another penny from me.
ZG15_robtek
Sep-30-2014, 11:57
When I gave them $100 I was under the idiotic impression it would be a sim, not merely a game. Still, once bitten twice shy and all that.
They'll not get another penny from me.
Same for me!!!!
JG4_sKylon
Sep-30-2014, 12:21
When I gave them $100 I was under the idiotic impression it would be a sim, not merely a game. Still, once bitten twice shy and all that.
They'll not get another penny from me.
Same for me.
My only hope is that BoS might reach people who currently not play any "fly game" and that those new players might have a look at CoD.
Some kind of repetition of the Warthunder story, the game which made me fly CoD.
On the other hand, BoS might pull people from CoD away.
heinkill
Sep-30-2014, 13:05
On the other hand, BoS might pull people from CoD away.
A certainty, at least for single players. I've been flying the BoS FW190A lately because it is one of my favourite warbirds, and I'm happy to see it flying in any sim/theatre. So if I have a spare half hour, a quick FW vs Lagg dogfight in BoS is just the thing. The AI in BoS is not at all exceptional, but gives a better challenge than CoD because at least the AI doesn't stop fighting and start going in circles after a couple of minutes, or ignore you completely.
Online I think CoD still has the edge, with larger maps and better performance when players are 50+ but I'm not a big fan of online so others might have a different opinion,
H
I find it endlessly funny how people now say that they regret spending money on BOS. Come on, if you have been only semi-active in the flight simming world these past 5 years you should've seen this coming from miles and miles away. Anyway, there's other games out there you can play, the latest DCS products are fine sims.
JG4_sKylon
Sep-30-2014, 14:58
I find it endlessly funny how people now say that they regret spending money on BOS. Come on, if you have been only semi-active in the flight simming world these past 5 years you should've seen this coming from miles and miles away. Anyway, there's other games out there you can play, the latest DCS products are fine sims.
K, next time i´ll ask you before spending money.
Continu0
Sep-30-2014, 15:53
Maybe what is getting a lot of people's pants in a pickle is the (ab)use of the venerable IL2 brand on something which the developers admit is a 'flying game' rather than a sim?
Not the words I would chose, but quite spot on tough. What bothers me is that they have taken over the brand name, but not the philosophy behind Cliffs of Dover. And with taking over the brand name, I believe many expected that they would take it over too.
Still, for the Devs, it was a good move to do it. Many of the old 1946-people who didn`t get trough the Cliffs-Crysis will come back, compare BoS to 1946 and be happy with it. After all, it`s much more advanced than 1946. I just can`t be happy, because I`ve seen what Cliffs could have been / actually is.
The thing is, I could live in absolute peace with BoS, if it were not "Cliffs of Dover OR BoS". Only one can live officially, and I wish it were Cliffs of Dover.
One thing that I would really like to know is, how active the part of 777 was when Cliffs was abandoned. After all, battle for Moscow was at least halfway done, and shutting down sth. when you are already in the middle is not an usual thing to do. At least not given the fact that they also did push out Cliffs in the state it was, when it came out. I have troubles to believe in the "friendly competition" (as luthier wrote it) between 777 and Cliffs...
Be that as it may. Things can`t be changed. The end.
Lol so many saying it's a game and not a sim. DCS is a game, CloD is a game, IL2 was a game. They're all sims too. BoS is a game but it too is a sim. It's a combat flight sim rather than a study sim but there you go.
Hood
Continu0
Sep-30-2014, 16:26
Lol so many saying it's a game and not a sim. DCS is a game, CloD is a game, IL2 was a game. They're all sims too. BoS is a game but it too is a sim. It's a combat flight sim rather than a study sim but there you go.
Hood
Yes, sure. But still there are differences between those games or sims that matter... What you call them is basically up to you or me or whoever and does not really matter...
ATAG_Colander
Sep-30-2014, 16:46
Life is a sim.
Too deep? Then read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle :)
implicit A
Sep-30-2014, 16:53
BOS front Page :
"IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad is a historically based game. It is the next generation of the legendary Sturmovik series of WWII flight-sim games.
Robust Single-Player Campaign that features a challenging and innovative AI system and includes an extensive in-game achievement system
Realistic graphics and unique visual effects: clouds, lightning, tracers, explosions and huge smoke plumes - all of them fully realized to recreate the aerial combat scenery
Flexible Quick Mission mode that allows you to create your own custom combat scenario in just a couple of minutes
Classic Multiplayer gameplay with dedicated player controlled servers with your favorite settings for team battles and dogfight duels
Realistic sounds and physics, detailed aircraft systems modeling, advanced aerodynamics and state-of-the-art flight modeling gives you a real sensation of flight
Become an ace fighter pilot or try your hand at flying attack planes and bombers where you can destroy tanks, trucks, AAA batteries, artillery units and even armoured trains
Unique and detailed damage model shows how deadly the weapons can be and will challenge even the best pilots
For those that won’t make it back to base, each plane comes equipped with a handy parachute!
Action takes place on a 358 х 230 km map - The largest and most detailed recreation of the Battle of Stalingrad theatre ever modeled in a flight simulation
Single-Player Campaign scenario follows the real chronology of the battle starting with Operation Uranus on November 19th, 1942 and continues to the complete liberation of the city
Ten Legendary aircraft of the era have been thoroughly re-created using original drawings and blueprints from the Central archive of the Russian Ministry of Defense.
Precise simulation of the flight model allows everyone to learn the special character and limits of each and every plane in the game"
So ......
What about today, point after point, from above ?
I think devs did something wich look likes a good flight sim. ( It still a challenge to land a lagg 3 with the groud effect for exemple )
He 111 is an Awesome eyecandy ultradetailled piece of art.
Maps are very big (stalingrad) and good and realistic, eye candy, particulary Zeus' one.
But for me, dogfighting still to much arcadish,cartoonish, when your pilot is hitten, looks like bird of prey with always the same red bloody video sequence, without any chance to make a nice belly landing.
In Fact, I enjoy play it, to discover and make realistic nav on the map, practice take off and landing, until i'm fed up with so much snow. I'm afraid to be fed up already with snow, as the game is not yet release, and no alternativ "green" map is planed until now.
For now, you don't have the feeling to pilot the real thing as you can feel in DCS : excessiv ground looping effects and "spring" gear, requires you to practice some unrealistic tips like landing with almost no flap to avoid bouncing.
Otherwise, "in flight" feeling is quite good.
Looks like some of the dev, wanted to do a nice Fligh sim, and had to finish it quickly in an other way they would have liked.
Anyway, points systems in Single player campaign have always been expected in road map and never hidden
It looks like some of us, wanted to read only what they wanted to remind.
:salute:
ATAG_Colander
Sep-30-2014, 17:28
Looks like some of the dev, wanted to do a nice Fligh sim, and had to finish it quickly in an other way they would have liked.
Sounds familiar?
LBR=H.Ostermann
Sep-30-2014, 17:53
Sounds familiar?
S!
Yep... 1C again.
LuseKofte
Sep-30-2014, 18:58
I am not sure I should say this, I am targeted here they say, but cod is a game too. It is not any closer to a sim than BOS. DCS is the only one combatsim that will be a pure sim , that is when it can be called a combat sim. Now it is just a sim, awesome but sim.
I am 48 years old and I do all games that amuse me, I don't think it is more flattering being called a simmer. We are doing the same thing, looking stupid with a TrackIr hat
I find BOS very entertaining, sorry if some don't, but that is life. Too me right now it is cod that does not rock my boat. I am bored with it atm. Hope the spark will re enter later on. Until then I am gaming something else.
ATAG_Colander
Sep-30-2014, 19:33
I am not sure I should say this, I am targeted here they say, but cod is a game too. It is not any closer to a sim than BOS. DCS is the only one combatsim that will be a pure sim , that is when it can be called a combat sim. Now it is just a sim, awesome but sim.
I am 48 years old and I do all games that amuse me, I don't think it is more flattering being called a simmer. We are doing the same thing, looking stupid with a TrackIr hat
I find BOS very entertaining, sorry if some don't, but that is life. Too me right now it is cod that does not rock my boat. I am bored with it atm. Hope the spark will re enter later on. Until then I am gaming something else.
Luse,
CLOD is a game, I think everyone agrees with it and I consider DCS a game too. In fact, I think everything that runs in a computer for your amusement is to be called game.
ATAG_Septic
Sep-30-2014, 20:39
I think you've a point Heinkill.
I sometimes play games like World of Tanks, which portrays precisely nothing of the realism of operating an armoured vehicle whatsoever. But I don't care about that, there's nothing to forgive, it's just a point and click game, which is rather addictive and fun.
IL2 BoS on the other hand, carried the last hope for the franchise, which many of us loved and in which so many of us had high hopes and expectations. It is all quite sad really and therein may lie one cause of some bitterness.
It feels to me like the developers have missed a trick here though. I suspect there are sufficient people who desire a high fidelity combat simulation game, with great missions and campaigns, both on line and single player, and that they would pay good money for it. Tank game Steel Beasts, which attempts some simulation is horrendously expensive but does as far as I know still exist.
Septic.
I'm disappointed... I threw coins to support sim developers, and not to please everyone with game thing in it... Now I can't wait for dcs Normandy map, in the mean time TF is best.
implicit A
Oct-01-2014, 00:49
Lusesoft said : " We are doing the same thing, looking stupid with a TrackIr hat"
:glaughter:roflmao
you're absolutely right
+1
aus3620
Oct-01-2014, 01:10
I'm a WW2 nut, so I like CLoD and BOS for different reasons. I don't find it necessary to take the Fuhrer's Oath of loyalty to either game!
If you supported BOS I think you have done the flight sim genre a service and you have a game that is better than most. Far better than CLoD at its unfortunate release.
With a little luck BOS will be commercially viable, enabling another WW2 FS title to be developed.
DCS is an interesting project and despite my WW2 leaning I have the Huey module and may get the Sabre. I find DCS interesting without being outstanding, and I really have to be in the "zone" to play it.
So I really think we are well catered for at the moment. They are all good games in their own way.
LuseKofte
Oct-01-2014, 02:01
If you supported BOS I think you have done the flight sim genre a service and you have a game that is better than most. Far better than CLoD at its unfortunate release.
Hear hear, totally agree. I think everyone , and absolutely everyone should know there are a risk buying a flightsim , you might not like it. It is only ROF in History that ever handed out a test game for free. And I guess the same goes for BOS after a while.
But reading about people "waisting" money in a Beta "game". Did they not consider what beta was. I cannot say my eyes get wet over that fact.
I agree in many of the criticism of BOS. But it is a game with great potential and in a dedicated server it is actually fun
JimmyBlonde
Oct-01-2014, 03:18
Life is a sim.
Too deep? Then read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle :)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Best post in this thread, least relevant but still the best post.
All simulations are games unless you're actually using commercial software developed specifically for occupational or scientific reasons. Design and development differences aside the genre is better for having a variety of titles to offer and, once one flight sim gets it's hook into you then you'll soon be keen to try another. If people want to chuck the toys out of the pram before BoS is finished then that's their prerogative, I understand what it's like to be frustrated but I've also found that most of the things I perceived to be wrong with a sim in the past were usually caused by something at my end and not the product itself. I'm happy with what I've seen so far in Battle of Stalingrad and it will stay in my collection alongside CloD, RoF, Il-2 1946, FSX and DCS World.
PFT_Endy
Oct-01-2014, 03:57
...It is only ROF in History that ever handed out a test game for free. And I guess the same goes for BOS after a while...
Just a small correction here. DCS World is free to download with SU25T and TF51 included. The SU25 does not have a fully clickable cockpit up to DCS standards but it's got advanced flight model and is fully playable. The Georgia/Russia map and mission editor are fully operational as well. You can also play multiplayer with people who own other modules no problem. So that's a very good deal for anyone who wants to try modern combat.
For those who prefer WWII you can try the TF51 which is an unarmed, unarmored version of the P51. It's up to DCS standards when it comes to cockpit or functionality, you just can't fight with it.
Anyway, just wanted to correct you that ROF is NOT the only one that hands you the test game for free.
LuseKofte
Oct-01-2014, 05:51
Oh sorry I did not know, even I can see DCS seems to be the sim with most potential . I can imagine it would be fun flying airshow acrobatics with a bunch of fellas in multiplayer. That would be something. Imagine 2 days a week for a couple of hours training formation flying in that game.
9./JG52 Ziegler
Oct-01-2014, 08:25
Luse,
CLOD is a game, I think everyone agrees with it and I consider DCS a game too. In fact, I think everything that runs in a computer for your amusement is to be called game.
Yep have to agree with that C.
Being primarily an on line player, I only ever use SP for gunnery practice, so for me, the SP rants over on BoS don't really concern me. MP against other humans will always trump any AI in SP mode (for me). But as a RL pilot,coming from a Military background they are all games albeit with some good fun thrown in that can make people feel like they are experiancing some aerial combat.
The best of it (again for me) is when someone or some group puts together a campaign that can fly for several weekends and has definative objectives. We have had some great ones with Cliffs and hopfully will have more. We'll have to see how that/those plays out over on BoS.
PFT_Endy
Oct-01-2014, 08:42
Oh sorry I did not know, even I can see DCS seems to be the sim with most potential . I can imagine it would be fun flying airshow acrobatics with a bunch of fellas in multiplayer. That would be something. Imagine 2 days a week for a couple of hours training formation flying in that game.
Hmmm, I'll take it that you're being sarcastic here? I think you underestimate it because you mostly (if not only) like prop planes right? It's a well established MODERN combat sim first and foremost, with a good mission editor, very large map and a very large number of assets, ground units and weapon systems simulated. Su25T is fully playable, even in multiplayer with all weapon systems active. You get a fully functional plane with a fully working environment and multiplayer capabilities as a test sample. WWII stuff is only part of DCS and still much a work in progress, with more planes and maps coming later, but still, you also get the civilain version of the Mustang to try out before you decide to buy the proper one.
Anyway, like I said, your claim that "only ROF in History that ever handed out a test game for free" is incorrect.
Skoshi_Tiger
Oct-01-2014, 10:21
If we go to our good friend Wikipedia we find that
Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. Many games help develop practical skills, serve as a form of exercise, or otherwise perform an educational, simulational, or psychological role.
and that
Toys, and play in general, are important when it comes to growing up and learning about the world around us. The young use toys and play to discover their identity, help their bodies grow strong, learn cause and effect, explore relationships, and practice skills they will need as adults. Adults use toys and play to form and strengthen social bonds, teach, remember and reinforce lessons from their youth, discover their identity, exercise their minds and bodies, explore relationships, practice skills, and decorate their living spaces.
Do artificial constructs like unlocks constitute a rule or a goal?
Thinking about myself and how I tend to use all my flight sims they tend to fit into the "toy" category rather than "games".
Some toys simulate the real world better than others.
heinkill
Oct-01-2014, 11:04
Maybe good to provide a resume of factoids from the mouths of the devs for those who have just joined us then (no speculation or opinion included here):
- The BoS single player game will feature five historical phases of the Battle for Stalingrad: 1) Days before counteroffensive 2) Uranus 3) Air bridge 4)Wintergewitter 5) The ring of death
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/phases_zps52ed9063.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/phases_zps52ed9063.jpg.html)
- Each phase must be completed before the next phase can be played. A player completes a phase by achieving mission success and earning 'XP', or experience points to unlock the next phase. "We don't want you to spend too much time to do this, if you are a player who just likes to finish a campaign you can play phase after phase and your are finished in good time. But if you want of course you can dig deep inside every particular chapter."
- By flying missions however, the points the player earns can be used to unlock weapons mods, or skins.
- Every plane which you have actually bought (either in standard, or premium versions) will be flyable in the campaign and missions will be available for it. "Right now we only have two versions of the game, standard and premium, both of them include ALL airplanes opened from the beginning."
'Founders' (purchasers of the early access version) will have the planes unlocked, but weapon and skin mods will be locked for them like everyone else.
For example, in this 109 screen you can see it has five weapons unlocks possible (and ten skins). Taking into account all ten aircraft, this makes 50 weapons unlocks and 100 skins (+3 premium skins for founders).
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/unlocksexample109_zps6045b181.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/unlocksexample109_zps6045b181.jpg.html)
- In the future, there will 'probably' be a free game: "In the future we can say we probably plan to make a version with only two planes unlocked from the beginning, and all other planes, like six of them, need to be opened by the gameplay...like in Doom."
- In the GUI players will be able to see a 'Pilot card' showing the medals earned, the phases flown, and XP earned in each aircraft.
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/pilotcard_zpsb05c5832.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/pilotcard_zpsb05c5832.jpg.html)
- The player can also access a 'Plane Card' through the GUI showing all the weapon mods and skin unlocks that have been earned or can be earned for that aircraft by achieving the required XP amounts. If you want to unlock the mods and skins for the LaGG, you need to fly the LaGG. If you want to do it for the 109, you need to fly the 109
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/planecard_zps5033a30e.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/planecard_zps5033a30e.jpg.html)
The plane card shows you all the unlocks you have achieved, and the unlocks which are still possible.
This plane card shows the unlocks achieved for this 109
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/unlock_zps500af941.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/unlock_zps500af941.jpg.html)
- Once you have opened a skin in the campaign, you can use it in Quick Missions or in Multiplayer mode.
- Regarding historical accuracy, the map for each phase reflects the correct position of the front line and placement of airfields for that period. This is the extent of the 'historicity' of the sim - from here the player makes their own gameplay - either choosing to fly different aircraft and missions from a single field, the same aircraft type from the same field, or fly out of multiple airfields as they are progressively opened up by earning XP.
- If you play Soviet planes you open Soviet airfields, if you play German, you open German airfields. Airfields and phases are unlocked according to total XP, not according to specific mission or aircraft XP.
The game does not represent the correct military unit for the period at the correct airfield. "This is not about history, this is the place the gameplay begins, because you need to understand that this is a game...We decided not to put specific planes, specific regiments because it would have added six months to development. At this point we need to understand what we are doing - a book about history, or a game? We are game developers...We are doing games, hard core games, historically based games, but games."
- Gameplay. The game uses an 'advanced quick mission generator' to generate random missions every time. First the player chooses the airfield, and then the aircraft they want to fly. "If you are a roleplayer, then do not choose an airfield where the aircraft were not based, this is up to you."
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/missionchooseplane_zpscf105962.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/missionchooseplane_zpscf105962.jpg.html)
"The guys who want a certain type of deep role-playing campaign are not the average customer any more in this genre unfortunately. I'm one of the old school types myself too, but its not easy making a popular flying game these days with simply the older game-play designs."
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/mapexample_zps722dea25.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/mapexample_zps722dea25.jpg.html)
After this, they choose the type of mission (appropriate to that aircraft) and whether they want to fly a long mission (including takeoff and landing) or short mission (start and finish in the air). "We expect you will invest from 15-30 minutes for a short mission, and one hour or more for a long mission."
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/missionselect_zps5cc69744.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/missionselect_zps5cc69744.jpg.html)
The game then shows a graphical mission summary, and allows you to opt out and generate a new mission if you don't like the one that has been generated.
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/missiongeneralbriefing_zpsd1fd7769.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/missiongeneralbriefing_zpsd1fd7769.jpg.html)
The next step is to choose the realism/diffuculty setting: either normal (GUI icons, simple engine management) or expert (no GUI icons, full engine management). Customised realism settings eg icons plus full engine management, are not possible. This realism setting affects the XP points awarded for mission success. Expert = double points.
There follows the mission briefing. To succeed in the mission you must achieve the objectives (eg shoot down two enemy aircraft) and fly through the egress waypoint to collect full XP points. If you do not fly through the egress point, you do not collect any XP.
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/missiontacticalbriefing_zpsc513640c.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/missiontacticalbriefing_zpsc513640c.jpg.html)
You can also access a summary of the maximum possible points achievable in a mission if you were to destroy all available targets.
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/debriefscreen_zps3125bd3c.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/debriefscreen_zps3125bd3c.jpg.html)
- If you succeed with your mission objective and pass the egress point, but bail out, you only receive half XP. You cannot refly missions if you fail. Because missions are generated on the fly, by the BoS server, you must generate a new mission. Every mission is unique, and live only for the time you are flying it.
- At the end of a mission you get an animated summary screen showing targets destroyed and objectives achieved, and how many XP points were earned. Eg in this featured mission debrief screen a large number of air and ground targets were destroyed (WIP example only), the player bailed out, but completed the mission at expert level, and earned 194 XP.
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u534/bigfattfreddy/BoS/missionsummaryscreen_zpse6c326f6.jpg (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/bigfattfreddy/media/BoS/missionsummaryscreen_zpse6c326f6.jpg.html)
- The Full Mission Editor when eventually released, will allow players to create set historical scenarios and customised difficulty settings
- There will be 'decoration' not related to your mission ie ground and air activity in the area which you can choose to interact with or not. "How much 'decoration' is related to the power of modern PCs and we have a lot of people writing to us saying 'my PC is not supergood so pls do something with optimisation'...so we plan to start with something in the middle."
- Coop missions will not be possible at launch but the code is already being created to facilitate this for a future release. "We are not speaking 'for sure', we are not talking 'two weeks'."
- These features are locked. The devs are listening to/reading opinions about the single player game but it will not be changed before launch.
Kwiatek
Oct-01-2014, 12:45
I'm glad that im only online player :)
implicit A
Oct-01-2014, 14:37
thank you, Heinkill for all those great detailed explanations,
let's give a chance to this new modern game SP concept. looks brilliant to grab youngers and new people in the sim genre, anyway quite a lot more sim than WT an so on,
olders could test something different in the flight sim genre with new challenges wich will still easy for hardcore simmers.
As ever said, at this state, before release, it's already very very goof stuff, and i'm pround to be some of the founder and gives some pounds . No regret at this time.
FM is the only thing makes me a bit ?sceptic? but anyway it looks something similar to ROF with same issues, said Rof's fans and real pilots Bos Founders.
As i'm not a Rof's fan because of war period, I don't know about those known issues and limitation.
definitively, a good add to the fligh sim genre... and i've always been really attracted by russian WWII warbirds.
but my personal feeling is i will always prefer a good dogfight and a MP mission on ATAG's TF Clod over Channel, Kent, and Northen France (where i live)
and some studie sim session with incredible accurate jewelry birds,discovering their intimacy tips and personality of those famous birds, on DCS.
heinkill
Oct-01-2014, 14:39
I'm glad that im only online player :)
No such thing anymore buddy!
In BoS you have to play Single Player to unlock the weapons mods online or you will be the only one online without back armour and AP rounds.
And the single players are actually online because they have to be connected to the BoS server to generate missions!
;)
H
JG4_sKylon
Oct-01-2014, 15:22
Hi Heinkill,
thanks for the overview.
What exactly did you mean with "have to be connected to the BoS server".
Will there be the possibility to create your own server like ATAG for CoD?
No such thing anymore buddy!
In BoS you have to play Single Player to unlock the weapons mods online or you will be the only one online without back armour and AP rounds.
And the single players are actually online because they have to be connected to the BoS server to generate missions!
;)
H
I expect you'll get points during online play too, as the test servers all suggest this. Fact is nobody really knows how it'll work except the developers.
A lot of games with a single or multi player capability have to be connected at all times. It's hardly a novel idea so I don't know why it's such a major deal save for those without a connection.
Hood
Will there be the possibility to create your own server like ATAG for CoD?
Yes, a Dserver will be available.
ZAK (Sept, 30)
You already have the game on your PCs. The release version will feature campaign, updated GUI, dserver, OR support and that's pretty much it.
Release is not something special in our case - we've been adding game content bit by bit since November 2013 and no surprise should be expected, just another milestone on a long way with its end far from today.
This server is already done by players:
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/10336-us-eagles-nest-server-new-mission/
Theres a issue with ME (mission editor), actually available only for 777 friends.
JimmyBlonde
Oct-01-2014, 19:58
So where does it say that completing the campaign will be the ONLY way to unlock upgrades?
I think people might be going off half cocked on this.
:thumbsup:
Life is a sim.
Too deep? Then read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle :)
heinkill
Oct-02-2014, 10:55
So where does it say that completing the campaign will be the ONLY way to unlock upgrades?
I think people might be going off half cocked on this.
Question has been asked on multiple forums and you are right, the devs have not confirmed it, but strangely, neither have they ruled it out. If you see an official answer somewhere I'd love to read it.
However the devs have said this: "You already have the game on your PCs. The release version will feature campaign, updated GUI, dserver, OR support and that's pretty much it.
Release is not something special in our case - we've been adding game content bit by bit since November 2013 and no surprise should be expected, just another milestone on a long way with its end far from today."
And as the current multiplayer game in early access shows NO way to earn XP, then taking the above statement on face value means the MP game is finished, no more changes.
IE, there will not be a way to earn XP in multiplayer, only in SP.
H
Question has been asked on multiple forums and you are right, the devs have not confirmed it, but strangely, neither have they ruled it out. If you see an official answer somewhere I'd love to read it.
Can only hope this silence means they have just realised 'OMG what a dumb idea that was' and are having crisis meetings to see what can be done.
H
Take into account how the "big" (80%) part of the game is focused on the SP side. Now take into account how the unlocks are done. Now take into account its 777 and they want to make revenue from this XP points/unlock system. Put it all together and you can probably come to the same conclusion that they will make people play the SP campaign to get unlocks in MP. The next logical step is "buy" the unlocks to bypass the XP grind.
Its 777. There is always a way to make money from trivial things. Scarves anyone?
So where does it say that completing the campaign will be the ONLY way to unlock upgrades?
Question has been asked on multiple forums and you are right, the devs have not confirmed it, but strangely, neither have they ruled it out. If you see an official answer somewhere I'd love to read it.
If they dont change his mind at release (ZAK response):
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/10792-developer-diary-part-79/page-7#entry165922
I think this is implicit in this game statement:
"Robust Single-Player Campaign that features a challenging and innovative AI system. Includes an extensive in-game achievement system that allows players to unlock historically based airplane modifications and upgrades as your campaign progresses". (http://il2sturmovik.com/about/#3)
If player are not playing the SP Campaing, no unlocks...
The purpose of unlocks is "motivate" the player in finish the Campaing, I talk with teenager nephew abouth this, and he say that the "unlocks, anchivements..." is what make then play the actual games, generally they dont have interest in play games because the "history" (of the game). Without it, what reason someone would have to play ugly games like Tibia, Minecraft...?
Here Dev' Leader explain Campaing Design:
http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/1921-obsuzhdenie-79-j-chasti-dnevnikov-razrabotchika/page-4#entry201666
Attention for the "5%". :D
Sokol1
LuseKofte
Oct-02-2014, 14:43
Question has been asked on multiple forums and you are right, the devs have not confirmed it, but strangely, neither have they ruled it out. If you see an official answer somewhere I'd love to read it.
However the devs have said this: "You already have the game on your PCs. The release version will feature campaign, updated GUI, dserver, OR support and that's pretty much it.
Release is not something special in our case - we've been adding game content bit by bit since November 2013 and no surprise should be expected, just another milestone on a long way with its end far from today."
And as the current multiplayer game in early access shows NO way to earn XP, then taking the above statement on face value means the MP game is finished, no more changes.
IE, there will not be a way to earn XP in multiplayer, only in SP.
H
I have supported and defended this game all the way, mostly because many have based their critique on getting tricked to buy it. Witch their not. Many have given fair critiques and valid ones.
But forcing people to play single player to unlock historical weapons online are plain stupid. I get sick just thinking about it, so if this will happened I actually agree on what those I argued against. If this happens I will have access to nothing I suppose to get for my money. I am entitled to armor protection and historical ordonance, I will fly this game offline more than online. Because I am by nature a offline player. If offline was a real option in cod, I would not do online there either
Mysticpuma
Oct-02-2014, 15:45
Because I am by nature a offline player. If offline was a real option in cod, I would not do online there either
In one of the future patches we hope to rework the Ai so it's more like BoB:WoVII
Whether we get a chance to do that for the next patch or the one after, I don't know....but I too am an offliner so it's certainly on my 'nag' list to hope we can get it fixed ASAP :)
Cheers, MP
And as the current multiplayer game in early access shows NO way to earn XP...
H
When I've been on there's always been the basic kills x2 or whatever with points on the right so the mechanism is there.
Hood
LBR=H.Ostermann
Oct-02-2014, 16:38
In one of the future patches we hope to rework the Ai so it's more like BoB:WoVII
Whether we get a chance to do that for the next patch or the one after, I don't know....but I too am an offliner so it's certainly on my 'nag' list to hope we can get it fixed ASAP :)
Cheers, MP
S!
BoB:WoVII AI? Wow, this will be a nice addition! My mother bought as a gift to me in 2000 the Rowan BOB, great memories!
Continu0
Oct-02-2014, 17:39
The purpose of unlocks is "motivate" the player in finish the Campaing, I talk with teenager nephew abouth this, and he say that the "unlocks, anchivements..." is what make then play the actual games, generally they dont have interest in play games because the "history" (of the game). Without it, what reason someone would have to play ugly games like Tibia, Minecraft...?
Well, but if you don`t want to fly a flight simulation because of the game/the flying itself, you are in the wrong place anyways... I don`t see, how such a unlock-system could attach someone to a flight simulation (for a long time) who isn`t interested in flight simulations anyways. And therefore I don`t see a point in having the unlock-system.
And tbh., I prefere a community as well that is there because of the game and not because of the unlocks...
fly a flight simulation
See what Loft say, they hade to opt for a different market approach.
At same time the "il-2" is a bait, is a bullet in the foot. IMO if they had choose a title like "Butchebirds over Stalingrad" or something, things would have gone easy.
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4017391/Re:_Poll:_What_do_you_think_of#Post4017391
Things have changed, only we ("virtual pilots") not. :D
Sokol1
Continu0
Oct-03-2014, 02:21
At same time the "il-2" is a bait, is a bullet in the foot. IMO if they had choose a title like "Butchebirds over Stalingrad" or something, things would have gone easy.
Things have changed, only we ("virtual pilots") not. :D
IL-2 might be a bullet in the foot now, but I am almost sure that a lot of people who did never really play cliffs (because of it`s release) will start playing BoS at it`s release, compare it with 1946 and be really happy with it. Compared to 1946, BoS is great! It`s just not so, if you compare it to CloD. And the ones moaning in the forums right now are the ones who have stayed and played cliffs.
Because of the virtual pilots: Maybe that is true, but in my experience, it`s exactly the virtual pilots who do the most for the community, and in a way also the most for the devs. Still, the virtual pilots are not the customers who are listened to... and that is... hm...
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-03-2014, 03:11
Compared to 1946, BoS is great!
I have to completely disagree here. I don't see many of the hardcore IL246 players playing BoS. Most of them waited for Cliffs and sadly the majority of them have left the flight sim stuff all together. Remember the build up with Clod development? All the forum activity at 1c? 100's of people were logged in almost 24/7, and you couldn't read the posts as fast as they were posted. There was a HUGE anticipation for Cliffs. Sadly, it's like it should of been at release, right now with the TF patches. Makes you wish you could reach out and try to convince all those people to give it another shot doesn't it? But still, the fact of the matter is, even though BoS has grabbed a few of those players by taking the IL2 name. There's nothing IL2 about it.
But to get more to the point. BoS can't do, won't do 99% of what IL2 did, and I'm not talking about content in the slightest. Just ability. 46 was a sandbox just like Cliffs is a sandbox. You can place objects (1000's of them) all over the place and not have to worry about it in mission building. You can actually fly anywhere you want on the map without the game telling you to turn around. Actually you could leave autopilot on, use unlimited fuel, and let your plane fly for months on end in one direction and 46/Clod will let you keep on going. And that's just the tip of the iceburg. That doesn't even get into the SP content, the mission building, or even something as simple as being able to set dot pitch in the server. It's just not a sandbox. Instead you are at the mercy of what you are given. And to top it off, we are dealing with grinding for unlocks, XP points, and restrictions on how you want to play and what you want to use.
I knew full well what it would be like before I ever bought it. Basically everything I said about it, long before anyone was even given a chance to purchase, has been right on the money. I even called out the fact that we wouldn't have a mission builder until long after the game was released, with the real reason being other people (those people used to building missions in the real IL2 games) would find out just how drastically limited the ROF engine is and just how few of objects you can place before it all goes to hell in a hand basket. I should know. I started the SYN server for ROF and built plenty of missions for ROF. To give you an idea, it's so bad and limited that mission builders actually actively hide static objects and deactivate them with mission logic unless a player is near. Heck, you can't even set the amount of a particular plane limit you want. So if you want 5 109's in the air and only 5 available at all times, not even possible with the ME. You can't even raise a static object off the ground in the game to give you an idea.
The developers tout the ME is this complex masterpiece, but the reality is every single thing you can do in the ME can be done in the FMB. The difference is about 10,000 different things can be done in the FMB that can't be done in the ME (ROF mission editor). It's so far backwards in ability from an IL2 mission builder, that it's sadly, not even funny. And even good old IL2 used a component damage model. You could destroy control cables amongst a plethora of other items to critically damage your plane. And to top it off, you could see this data and damage. You'll never see this damage data with ROF/BOS because it's damage model isn't based on component damage, it's based 100% on hitbox damage. So if an entire wing is hitbox and "x" number of rounds destroys that wing that's exactly what happens. Even in the old game, let alone Cliffs, the round actually has to penetrate something in that wing (like a wing spar / strut) to cause that structural failure in the 1st place. But there are people that seriously believe that DM is realistic. Anyone remember the jug that flew all the way home after a 190 unloaded every ounce of ammo it had into it? In BoS, 2 cannon rounds hit anything and that plane is as good as gone.
But on the flip side, BoS is very good for Cliffs. Anyone wanting a more realistic updated IL246 that has that same ability may be steered this way now. Because, mark my words, when the mission builder does come out and the old IL2 hands start building missions thinking they can do and place the types of quantities of stuff they could in IL2, they are going to have a very rude awakening. (Hence why we don't have it yet and won't till long after it's officially released).
heinkill
Oct-03-2014, 04:41
When I've been on there's always been the basic kills x2 or whatever with points on the right so the mechanism is there.
Hood
I hoped so, and asked on the Early Access forum, but I was referred back to this comment from the devs/Zack: "You're right, Mac: planes are all available, and modifications will be usable after you unlock them flying in single player."
H
heinkill
Oct-03-2014, 08:07
I knew full well what it would be like before I ever bought it. Basically everything I said about it, long before anyone was even given a chance to purchase, has been right on the money. I even called out the fact that we wouldn't have a mission builder until long after the game was released, with the real reason being other people (those people used to building missions in the real IL2 games) would find out just how drastically limited the ROF engine is and just how few of objects you can place before it all goes to hell in a hand basket. I should know. I started the SYN server for ROF and built plenty of missions for ROF. To give you an idea, it's so bad and limited that mission builders actually actively hide static objects and deactivate them with mission logic unless a player is near. Heck, you can't even set the amount of a particular plane limit you want. So if you want 5 109's in the air and only 5 available at all times, not even possible with the ME. You can't even raise a static object off the ground in the game to give you an idea.
Good insights Bliss. I have RoF but unlike every other sim I spend time with (BOBII, DCS, IL246, CoD), never tried mission building in it after the first, frustrating few hours.
I understand the compromises the BoS team have had to make with their rush to market approach - they have not been able to do much more than tweak the engine they have from RoF, so people should not expect it to be radically different. Do people really think the map is pure white with a few trees and a river of unmoving ice because that is 'historically authentic'? Of course they have done it because it is easier on the GFX engine than all those taxing colours and water with waves. They have also warned, disingenuously I think, that players have asked them to respect players with older PCs so they have kept incidental air/ground traffic to a minimum. Calling BS on that - the engine just can't handle it.
But what else can they do? They have to make the best game they can with what they have, minimise cost, max profit, if they are ever going to generate enough cash to move to a next gen code platform. Hence also the attempt to pull over some of the gamers who might traditionally not consider a flight sim, by rebranding BoS a 'flight game' and including an XP system with unlocks and rewards. Guarantee you the banner ads for BoS will have a lot of Bang Boom action in them!
As for the mission editor debacle, Maddox was lucky enough to get its ME right, and just needed tweaks for CoD. 777 got the RoF ME wrong and it would need a big investment to fix it, which they can't afford.
I want them to succeed, because BoS has shown this is a team which can make a plan, stick to it, and deliver a good product. I know a lot of people will take issue with that assessment but I believe it. So if they are successful and can keep making games, the future is brighter.
H
Thats some great insight Bliss. Sadly, there are many, many people that believe the exact opposite.
Reading over the BoS various forums, even people that are not happy with the game right now, harp on the fact the ME will save it. They think the "hardcore" modder crowd will be able to work magic and bring it up to old IL2/CoD standards. Hell if Jason posted something about yeah we know its pretty arcade now, but when simmers get the ME its all gravy.
I have stated the ME is much more restrictive than they think, and have been blasted for saying so. I am glad someone that has knowledge about it actually confirmed my assumptions.
Its sad to see it go down that way, but I dont see another path for BoS other than ending up like Wings of Prey. My dream would be for BoS to make me and other critics eat our words....really. I just dont see how they can.
In one of the future patches we hope to rework the Ai so it's more like BoB:WoVII
Whether we get a chance to do that for the next patch or the one after, I don't know....but I too am an offliner so it's certainly on my 'nag' list to hope we can get it fixed ASAP :)
Cheers, MP
That news is so awesome. I swear WoVII AI with a DCG, and I would be in pure bliss.
JimmyBlonde
Oct-03-2014, 20:51
In one of the future patches we hope to rework the Ai so it's more like BoB:WoVII
Whether we get a chance to do that for the next patch or the one after, I don't know....but I too am an offliner so it's certainly on my 'nag' list to hope we can get it fixed ASAP :)
Cheers, MP
I'd donate a kidney to see this happen.
ATAG_Colander
Oct-03-2014, 21:06
I'd donate a kidney to see this happen.
No need, only the adrenal gland would suffice.
gavagai
Oct-03-2014, 21:09
I find it endlessly funny how people now say that they regret spending money on BOS. Come on, if you have been only semi-active in the flight simming world these past 5 years you should've seen this coming from miles and miles away. Anyway, there's other games out there you can play, the latest DCS products are fine sims.
I did not buy BOS because of my experience with Rise of Flight. Plenty of us tried to warn people about where 777 would take "flight simulations." DCS modules are great.
Well I have to say now, with the latest info I am seeing, I am now beginning to regret buying into BOS.
Earn XP, unlock airplanes, unlock airfields, weapons mods, can only fly single player campaign in normal or expert settings, no custom in between settings, locked graphics presets, etc.
Well I have to say now, with the latest info I am seeing, I am now beginning to regret buying into BOS.
Earn XP, unlock airplanes, unlock airfields, weapons mods, can only fly single player campaign in normal or expert settings, no custom in between settings, locked graphics presets, etc.
Me too. I did uninstall it without backing up controls as posted. Once I got it downloaded and found out I had to grind to get to MP I didn't bother to set up my controls and removed it from my Hard drive. I have issues with some in 777 management anyway. They got my 95 bucks, I take it as I "rented" the alpha/beta game for a year for that money. When I voiced my opinion I got a PM to "be nice" Basically STFU as I took it. So I did. Done with that warthunder type of game. Too bad it could have been a good mid level flight sim, not to hard but not arcade mmo either.
MS did very similar with MS flight.
We all know how long that lasted...
Yeah less than a year I think. Too bad It (BOS) could have been a good middle of the road sim.
Well now, aside from the SP letdown, it seems like Jason is getting all in a huff at everyone. The Eagles Nest full real server in the US, has been yanked because members of that group voiced their concerns.
Between the arcade style, the unlocks, the xp points, and now 777 lead "officially" leaving SIMHQ forums, getting all mad at Heinkill, and now closing the only good full real server in the US over hyperbole, I am not sure if there is going to be much life left.
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11138-developer-diary-part-81/page-20
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4017773/No_longer_active_on_this_forum#Post4017773
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4012983/14/Poll:_What_do_you_think_of_the
Talk about defensive...
92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-05-2014, 02:36
Well now, aside from the SP letdown, it seems like Jason is getting all in a huff at everyone. The Eagles Nest full real server in the US, has been yanked because members of that group voiced their concerns.
Between the arcade style, the unlocks, the xp points, and now 777 lead "officially" leaving SIMHQ forums, getting all mad at Heinkill, and now closing the only good full real server in the US over hyperbole, I am not sure if there is going to be much life left.
How about a few voices from the Cliffs "community" get on over to the Eagles Nest website and offer some words, inviting them to bring themselves and their players over to Cliffs of Dover?
Well now, aside from the SP letdown, it seems like Jason is getting all in a huff at everyone. The Eagles Nest full real server in the US, has been yanked because members of that group voiced their concerns.
Between the arcade style, the unlocks, the xp points, and now 777 lead "officially" leaving SIMHQ forums, getting all mad at Heinkill, and now closing the only good full real server in the US over hyperbole, I am not sure if there is going to be much life left.
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11138-developer-diary-part-81/page-20
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4017773/No_longer_active_on_this_forum#Post4017773
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4012983/14/Poll:_What_do_you_think_of_the
Talk about defensive...
Well Hooves, a notorious 777 supporter was one of the admins...daddys gonna hit him with his belt hahaha
heinkill
Oct-06-2014, 09:56
Well now, aside from the SP letdown, it seems like Jason is getting all in a huff at everyone. The Eagles Nest full real server in the US, has been yanked because members of that group voiced their concerns.
Between the arcade style, the unlocks, the xp points, and now 777 lead "officially" leaving SIMHQ forums, getting all mad at Heinkill, and now closing the only good full real server in the US over hyperbole, I am not sure if there is going to be much life left.
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11138-developer-diary-part-81/page-20
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4017773/No_longer_active_on_this_forum#Post4017773
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4012983/14/Poll:_What_do_you_think_of_the
Talk about defensive...
Jason being mad with me is par for the course. "It's Tuesday, wife unhappy, kids want money, Jason is mad at me, late for work...another normal day'.
H
Jason being mad with me is par for the course. "It's Tuesday, wife unhappy, kids want money, Jason is mad at me, late for work...another normal day'.
H
With whom Im talking about?
Jason being mad with me is par for the course. "It's Tuesday, wife unhappy, kids want money, Jason is mad at me, late for work...another normal day'.
H
LOL sounds just like me! I just stay off the ROF forums these days.
And the screw is turned deeper.
- fixed the bug with skins unavailability;
- impossibility to finish tutorial and start the campaign was fixed;
- video cutscenes were converted to Bink to avoid stutters;
- autopilot feature was turned off for campaign mode;
- it's now possible to speed up time for x2 only;
- some corrections were made to the He 111 physical model;
- aim helper added in Normal difficulty;
- incorrectly low resolution at first start of the game via Steam was fixed
JG4_sKylon
Oct-06-2014, 15:54
Haha, they deactivated the autopilot in SP and speed up is limited to 2x.
:P
Haha, they deactivated the autopilot in SP and speed up is limited to 2x.
:P
Seriously, you can't even make this stuff up lol.
ATAG_Colander
Oct-06-2014, 17:05
Haha, they deactivated the autopilot in SP and speed up is limited to 2x.
:P
I can understand this...
Imagine people leaving the plane in autopilot and at 10x to unlock some weapon. Then rinse and repeat for every single mission :)
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-06-2014, 17:09
I can understand this...
Imagine people leaving the plane in autopilot and at 10x to unlock some weapon. Then rinse and repeat for every single mission :)
That's what the MP people were trying to do. The problem is they are forcing every single MP player to play through the SP mode in order to get all the gear they want in MP. I can't believe they think that taking all the player's choices away on how they want to fly is in anyway a good or positive thing. :doh:
Poor MP people.
Nobody is forcing them to do anything. They can be effective with what they've got. If they want a change then they'll have to spend a few hours getting it.
Storm in a very narrow-viewed teacup.
Hood
I particularly enjoy flying through the winter of Stalingrad '42 in a summer skin. :D
I have no desire to play SP at all, I simply want to play MP and the QMB for quick sessions. Why should I be restricted in what is available based upon what I wish to play?
Alternatively; would you enjoy being forced to scrap for XP in MP if everything were locked for SP?
Continu0
Oct-06-2014, 19:08
Alternatively; would you enjoy being forced to scrap for XP in MP if everything were locked for SP?
e.g. shoot someone down if you want to proceed to the next SP-Mission...
Chuck_Owl
Oct-06-2014, 19:39
I received some very colorful comments lately regarding my actions with the aircraft guides. My mailbox is just full of love.
That sucks Chuck, your guides were lovely, but I can understand why you took them down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seeing the last couple of days go down I want to offer some feedback from the trenches:
I'm not a huge fan of the unlock system but it was bearable. I'm sad to see the lack of time compression options, as I do enjoy being able to get to the action quicker in single player.
The single player campaign is not so much a campaign so much as a number of quick missions played one after another. They are not terrible, but they are not very immerse or really anything to write home about. Tragically, the campaign found in RoF is vastly superior and it's not exactly fun to have to play it to unlock modifications to one's plane.
However, what I find the most disturbing is how little the developers care. Pages upon pages of vocal critique from various types of players and all that happens is they kill the Eagle's Nest server because the =SE= guys said they "weren't exactly thrilled" with unlocks. This has hit the North American community like a bombshell and at the moment there is not a single NA server that is based on objectives. There is of course an airquake server generously provided by the developers. The developers also stated that they were talking to another third party provider about resolving some of the issues with MP, although again no form of timetable was given nor was there a promise of a replacement for the Eagle's Nest.
After a weekend where they could have come up with a useful response and at least told the community they were listening, the developers instead resorted to the "Haters gonna' hate" defense. One of the developers, Jason, explained that they thought they had been clear with the direction of the game and said that he was "amazed" at how quickly the flight sim community resorted to anger/hating on 777 studios. To finish his post, he stated that the developers had absolutely no plans to listen to the community and that essentially we should just "play the game."
I'm feeling like an idiot for supporting 777 and 1C, I guess it was just too much to ask that the developers would see the flight sim community as anything more than a stepping stone to the mainstream gamers they believe will save their profits. =FB= Loft, who I believe is the lead producer has been very clear that flight simmers are not and will never be the target audience of the game.
As much as I want to support flight sims and tell people to buy the game, I can't do so at the moment. With Jason, Loft and the rest of 777/1C living in their own imaginary world, I have no hope remaining for this game and I'm going to cut my losses at this point. $94.99 is not a terrible price to pay to learn the true nature of a man.
Also, to the astute readers, I am using a pen name, because judging by their previous actions I expect the developers to punish people for posting negative things about the game on non-official forums.
I have never before in my life felt so swindled and let down by a developer and I lament the beers I have wasted in the form of early access.
S! BoS, S! BoS community (the players and the reasonable moderators), RIP.
I stay out of the politics of these games......I also know nothing about BOS......but I just have to shake my head by what I do hear on occasion.
The single player campaign is not so much a campaign so much as a number of quick missions played one after another. They are not terrible, but they are not very immerse or really anything to write home about. Tragically, the campaign found in RoF is vastly superior and it's not exactly fun to have to play it to unlock modifications to one's plane.
As a SP guy, this is what astounds me. I had such high hopes on the campaign/career mode for BOS, having experienced the ROF Beta Career.
Why in the world, would they not expand on and enhance what they had already developed for ROF? Or also taken some cues from the excellent PWCG Campaign done by Pat Wilson, and merge the two into something truly great for BOS?
Unlocks - XP Grinding - really? Even applies to the QMB? I want unlocks in the form of achievements, moving up in rank, gaining experience, progressing through the campaign in the squad I happen to join, along with my squad members that remain throughout unless they fall prey to the enemy. A story line.
Heck, just look at the controller and graphics settings in ROF, and compare to what is offered today in BOS. No comparison, ROF is way better. How does this happen, I really just don't get the logic there...
I stay out of the politics of these games......I also know nothing about BOS......but I just have to shake my head by what I do hear on occasion.
I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt, honestly, I tried to see the logic in their decisions and I reminded myself they are under a lot of pressure.
However, I can't stand the dishonesty of 777 and 1C.
Throughout the Beta and Early Access they have been exceedingly ambiguous about features and managed to string the flight sim community along, then all of sudden the light sim became merely a "game" and suddenly mainstream gamers were the main focus. Then when people started complaining they simply started arguing "We told you guys from Day 1 this wasn't about flight simming".
So I'm left with two thoughts, either I am such an idiot I somehow managed in an almost a year of following the game to miss where they said that they didn't give 5 cents about flight sims or they were being willingly deceitful about it.
I hate to be negative, but it feels more like a scam than an honest effort. They got our money and now they don't really need us any more.
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-06-2014, 23:25
I've thought quite a bit about why they would have a format where you'd be forced to play something you don't want to play in order to unlock an item. The only thing that makes any sort of sense to me is that they are planning on selling those items as a DLC after release. So you have the choice to grind and get them all, or you can simply give more money to have them without the effort. Hopefully, that's not the case. But it's only logical explanation for doing what they've done that I can come up..
Someone in our virtual squad found this post on SimHQ and we quickly agreed it summed up the mindset of the developers at this point quite nicely:
This goes back to my original post and the sheer arrogance of "We don't care how you - the paying customer - want to play the game. We, the developers, want you to play the game this way and we're going to make damn sure that's your only option".
It's not just a case of not listening to their customers, it's almost a willful taunting of them - "Oh, so you found a workaround for that aspect of the experience you don't like? We'll soon put a stop to that. Back to suffering through the stuff you hate, valued customer!
I think that whoever is in charge and is making the calls at 1C/777 is so hellbent on whatever ideas they've all bought into, that they would rather piss off the entire community and send the game crashing from the skies than accept that maybe they should try to work with the players or at the very least say "Ok, we see you guys don't like this feature, we'll try to figure out some compromise if you give us time."
They seem to be so stubborn that the more things go wrong or the deeper they dig their own graves, the more convinced they are that the playerbase are ungrateful idiots and that it's our fault things are going wrong for them.
I fully expect that in six months when there still hasn't been an influx of mainstream gamers to BoS, they will blame the flight sim community and use the failure of BoS as an example of why "flight sims" are not sound business ventures.
ATAG_Headshot
Oct-07-2014, 01:06
I fully expect that in six months when there still hasn't been an influx of mainstream gamers to BoS, they will blame the flight sim community and use the failure of BoS as an example of why "flight sims" are not sound business ventures.
And at that point they will again call it a "flight sim" instead of a game... ;)
Didn't they say they have to sell 200,000 copies for it to be a success?
I have to share this wonderful comment by Jason, who I think is some sort of higher up developer:
I'm sorry, but all this Devs aren't talking is nonsense. Go read the Russian forum. You'll see many of the guys including Loft discussing these topics with users.
The context is that several players have complained about how vague the Russian developers were in explaining features and how often there English is not good enough for them to actually make proper, understandable sentences (not to say that is something to be ashamed of, but it is a problem when most of the developers can't communicate clearly with a large portion of players...everyone who doesn't speak Russian).
However, clearly the solution to the poor Russian to English communication, is that we, the customers should use google translate on the Russian forum or perhaps even learn Russian ourselves. I'm glad that I have given money to a company that expects me to learn Russian in order to understand them correctly.
:signs6:
Anyone know who in 1C/777 Studios I email about free Russian courses?
And now Jason is threating with bans to everyone, hes gone completely mad. Not that he was ok before that lol.
Anyways, I will be selling my premium version of BOS just after the official release. It will be for less than half of the full price (in the store). The money will go for funding ATAG server. So lets call it a symbolic selling. Just FYI :)
I think Jason is screwed and he knows it. If they don't change things dramatically in the next few weeks before the release (and there is no sign of that happening) then BoS is dead. Even the fanboys are up in arms.
I sold my copy a few months ago, as I saw the writing on the wall.
I can't believe 1c killed CoD for this.
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-07-2014, 03:59
I think Jason is screwed and he knows it. If they don't change things dramatically in the next few weeks before the release (and there is no sign of that happening) then BoS is dead. Even the fanboys are up in arms.
I sold my copy a few months ago, as I saw the writing on the wall.
I can't believe 1c killed CoD for this.
At least Cliffs is far from dead and DCS EDGE, hopefully with a dedicated server is also finally on the horizon. There's options for the more hard core crowd approaching. But one things for sure, taking the IL2 name and adding unlocks, xp, and power-up type stuff to it, will at the very least, kill it for the hard core simmers. The one thing I that boggles the mind is the fact that most of the developers were long time players of old IL2 in the 1st place.
I can't understand how you could play through the heyday of 1000+ people online everyday, thousands more engaged in SP, and 100's if not 1000's more engaged in their own online campaigns and war, and somehow forget all the reasons all those people were sitting there enjoying it in the 1st place.
They have essentially taken away squadron play completely. No squad markings. No online skins. Hardly any server settings. Taken your graphics presets away. And then, to top it all off, taken the ability to simply fly the damn thing how you want away.
How can someone be in the power to finally make a flight sim, be in the position to do so, live through the best time of flight simming, and then magically forget why everything that was in the sim to make it the best time in the 1st place. It boggles the mind completely how one could possibly forget or simply overlook that recipe for success that's already been laid out in front of you.
I truly think the day Oleg left the building, flight simming will never be the same.
ZG15_robtek
Oct-07-2014, 04:51
I've posted this:
IL2-Sturmovik was a brand name which projected a wwii-cfs as detailed and challenging as the computers at that time allowed.
The first successor tried to follow this path and was shot down by the shortage of money and patience of 1c and the too high standards of the devs.
The second successor now puts shame to the brand name, the only thing challenged is the endurance of the people who thought of getting a real IL2 successor.
in the BoS forum.
The "Defenders of the Crown" were fast to reply. :D :D :D
92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-07-2014, 05:01
the heyday of 1000+ people online everyday, thousands more engaged in SP, and 100's if not 1000's more engaged in their own online campaigns and war, and somehow forget all the reasons all those people were sitting there enjoying it in the 1st place.
.
Those were the days! I remember logging on to IL2 and seeing 10+ full servers!
There must be quite a few of us hoping like anything that we can return to this kind of player numbers - and hopefully with Cliffs.
Black034
Oct-07-2014, 05:09
I'm not planning on selling BoS, even thought it feels like WT Sim gamemode it still has glorious graphics and sound production.
However after playing CoD and some 1946 I can see why fans are a bit pissed.
The cockpit buttons aren't even clickable for example, eventhough it's still in development it seems a bit bland and arcady.
Maybe a good thing to interest people who aren't as Hardcore as the original playerbase but still a hindrance for the fans.
And who knows, maybe in 5 years it will have the same fate as CoD? Some cool mods or tweaks.
I wonder what happened to Tree and Furbs, they used to be such BoS fans.
I'm not planning on selling BoS, even thought it feels like WT Sim gamemode it still has glorious graphics and sound production.
However after playing CoD and some 1946 I can see why fans are a bit pissed.
The cockpit buttons aren't even clickable for example, eventhough it's still in development it seems a bit bland and arcady.
Maybe a good thing to interest people who aren't as Hardcore as the original playerbase but still a hindrance for the fans.
And who knows, maybe in 5 years it will have the same fate as CoD? Some cool mods or tweaks.
Bean counter said they will never let the code to anyone.
Black034
Oct-07-2014, 05:35
Bean counter said they will never let the code to anyone.
10-4.
~SELLING IL2 BoS FOUNDER COPY FOR 45 EUROS!~
:-P
Screamadelica
Oct-07-2014, 05:44
I was always very cautious about the Battle Of Stalingrad project and I'm glad I didn't get involved with the pre order.
As Archie said I can't believe they killed Cliffs Of Dover and went down the path they did. If the money that went into giving 777 development funds was instead used to continue work on Cliffs imagine what could have been achieved.
Thankfully we have the brilliant work that has been done and continues to be done by Team Fusion. :thumbsup:
The future of flight sims is looking fantastic with the DCS WW2 series and the planned VEAO releases to go with it, as well as the continuing improvements to Cliffs Of Dover.
I notice that there is no option to close your account on the BOS forum. Hopefully the support section will process my request. :)
LuseKofte
Oct-07-2014, 05:56
To me it seems cod is dead. If you believe 80 people in one server is sustainable , well ok. But sooner or later the incomming pilots will be less than outgoing. Since there Are no real sim to get new fliers.
But my hopes are still up for BOS It kind of typical all this hysteria. For my sake combatsim is dead. If the only one gonna be cod
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-07-2014, 06:11
To me it seems cod is dead. If you believe 80 people in one server is sustainable , well ok. But sooner or later the incomming pilots will be less than outgoing. Since there Are no real sim to get new fliers.
But my hopes are still up for BOS It kind of typical all this hysteria. For my sake combatsim is dead. If the only one gonna be cod
There was almost 300 people online alone in IL2COD alone last weekend. Please tell me another flight sim that is currently on market, past or present, that even comes close to these player numbers? If you think IL2COD online is dead, then all the other flight sims out there must be non-existent. Because Clod is the most active online out of any of them today.
And you're right about combat sims being dead. That's because of the choices the developers have been making. People will most certainly flock to a good capable hardcore sim. It's just the choices for those, especially in the MP arena today, are few and far between. But there are people out there lurking, waiting for the right one to come along, another 1946 or similar. And when all pieces fall into place like the old game did, our little niche market will come back. But not until the people producing the sims realize why the popularity existed in the 1st place.
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-07-2014, 06:14
Those were the days! I remember logging on to IL2 and seeing 10+ full servers!
There must be quite a few of us hoping like anything that we can return to this kind of player numbers - and hopefully with Cliffs.
I hear ya! :thumbsup: Anyone that was fortunate to be able to play in the good old days, knows exactly how amazing that time in history was. Just trying to get a slot in HL was very difficult some days.
To me it seems cod is dead. If you believe 80 people in one server is sustainable , well ok. But sooner or later the incomming pilots will be less than outgoing. Since there Are no real sim to get new fliers.
But my hopes are still up for BOS It kind of typical all this hysteria. For my sake combatsim is dead. If the only one gonna be cod
I agree with this as without major developments in modding CLOD we'll all still be flying across northern France/Southern England in beautiful weather forever more. It does that quite well but it's gotten old now.
I'm looking forward to seeing where BOS takes us. I don't get the "it's not hardcore" statements as if that were the be-all and end-all of sims. Once you're in the air is where it is "hardcore" if you want it to be. The manner of the SP campaign and unlocks doesn't make it less hardcore and the hysteria around those aspects is disturbing. In a year it'll probably be a totally different beast from what we see now. Maybe 6 months.
I also have high hopes for DCS:WWII and that in a year or two we'll have an almost full Normandy environment with sufficient planeset to run a campaign. I dislike the thought of all P51s v only D9s and K4s so it'll be some time before I go more over to DCS.
As an aside I played 1946 again recently. God it looks awful compared to CLOD or BOS. Simplicity of joining via HL and aircraft setup was, though limited, a breath of fresh air. I can't see ANY flight sim getting us back to the glory days of HL being maxxed out. Those that really got into flight sims for WWII are now older, fatter and probably married or with kids. On the whole they're dropping away and won't be replaced because of the generational gap. I'm working hard on my next generation but they're a bit young at the mo.
Hood
Black034
Oct-07-2014, 07:08
Hold yer horses with the pessimism about player base for sims dropping.
More and more folks are stepping into the mechanized field of virtual war gaming every single day.
May it be Warthunder or ArmA, people are slowly demanding more authenticity with every game they play.
A good example might be indeed the WT crowd slowly playing more actual sims because the devs aren't that focussed on historical accuracy.. just read their forums.
Half of the topics are "Why doesn't plane X behave like the real deal?"
I do believe a game like BoS might be a good transition point for the more motivated "arcade" players, nothing more though..
If "we" (super new to this community so I don't feel THAT involved.. yet) are lucky they will crave for even more, something BoS isn't delivering which has been summarized in the previous posts.
To all of the old folks from "ye olde days", keep your damn hopes up!
Most of us new guys depend on you to set the right examples.. see it as a legacy from one Sim enthusiast the the new ones.
A good title and gaming experience is 50% community after all.
Well I can certainly state now what my plans are.
Fall is here, which means soon my yard work, pool work, and trips to the lake are coming to an end, which frees up my weekends once again until the spring.
Yes, I bought into the Early Access of BOS from the start, but now unless something drastic changes I will be shelving it for the time being.
I will continue to fly my most favorite combat sim to date, TF Cliffs of Dover. Heck who knows, I might even have a go at Multiplayer in it before it is over.
I am going to install once again, 1946 and get it up to date with all the mods, and have another go at it. I want some Pacific Theatre action. Has been a long time since I have flown it, looking forward to seeing what the current mods do for it.
And lastly, I have most of the DCS modules already purchased, plus I get all the flyables in DCS WWII from my Kickstarter contribution. Going to spend some time learning the DCS modules I have, namely A-10C and Black Shark 2, and continue to look forward to seeing what WWII and Edge brings.
I think I will have plenty to keep my occupied and happy in the combat flight sim department for this off season! I will monitor the progress of BOS from the sidelines, if things should change drastically and it becomes more like a true successor to IL-2, I might then give it another try.
ChiefRedCloud
Oct-07-2014, 09:58
Good insights Bliss. I have RoF but unlike every other sim I spend time with (BOBII, DCS, IL246, CoD), never tried mission building in it after the first, frustrating few hours.
I understand the compromises the BoS team have had to make with their rush to market approach - they have not been able to do much more than tweak the engine they have from RoF, so people should not expect it to be radically different. Do people really think the map is pure white with a few trees and a river of unmoving ice because that is 'historically authentic'? Of course they have done it because it is easier on the GFX engine than all those taxing colours and water with waves. They have also warned, disingenuously I think, that players have asked them to respect players with older PCs so they have kept incidental air/ground traffic to a minimum. Calling BS on that - the engine just can't handle it.
But what else can they do? They have to make the best game they can with what they have, minimise cost, max profit, if they are ever going to generate enough cash to move to a next gen code platform. Hence also the attempt to pull over some of the gamers who might traditionally not consider a flight sim, by rebranding BoS a 'flight game' and including an XP system with unlocks and rewards. Guarantee you the banner ads for BoS will have a lot of Bang Boom action in them!
As for the mission editor debacle, Maddox was lucky enough to get its ME right, and just needed tweaks for CoD. 777 got the RoF ME wrong and it would need a big investment to fix it, which they can't afford.
I want them to succeed, because BoS has shown this is a team which can make a plan, stick to it, and deliver a good product. I know a lot of people will take issue with that assessment but I believe it. So if they are successful and can keep making games, the future is brighter.
H
It comes to mind (file this under conspiracy thinking) that all this tout about the single player campaign only funnels players to the soon to be released "BUY ALL YOUR UNLOCKS" which will most assuredly come with a statement like ... "DUE TO THE OUTCALL FROM PLAYERS WHO DO 'NOT' WANT TO UNLOCK ANYTHING, WE WILL SELL EVERYTHING" .... or am I mistaken?
And while I'm at it let me say that it's strange with so many listed REAL problems with BoS, isn't it strange that so much hullabaloo is going on about the Campaign unlocks?
Incidentally I fly BoS and though not unhappy with it, will always return to the REAL Flight Sims like CloD.
Chief
I can't see ANY flight sim getting us back to the glory days of HL being maxxed out. Those that really got into flight sims for WWII are now older, fatter and probably married or with kids. On the whole they're dropping away and won't be replaced because of the generational gap. I'm working hard on my next generation but they're a bit young at the mo.
Hood
Hey, I take offense to this...I bought original IL-2 on first release.....I experienced the glory days of HL......I am married with 2 kids.....my waste size has stayed the same!
LuseKofte
Oct-07-2014, 10:51
@ Bliss, I am a big fan of clod, had countless hours in it on your server. But I have seen many leave it. Gladly many come also. BOS work perfectly co sided to COD it is totally different and make you hungry for cod . It is the best sim to get more flyers to cod, and for me to do something else once in a while. I am really hoping for more populated public servers, so we can change missions when you do not want to fly the one in the server you are on.
This does not mean ATAG are doing a bad job, I think cod is alive because of ATAG so :thumbsup: but more populated public servers will improve this.
And if you ask me, BOS is perfect for recruiting, if not Jason burn down his work first that is
ATAG_Colander
Oct-07-2014, 11:02
Hey, I take offense to this...I bought original IL-2 on first release.....I experienced the glory days of HL......I am married with 2 kids.....my waste size has stayed the same!
Are you saying you've been fat all this time? :)
Are you saying you've been fat all this time? :)
We prefer the terms "horizontally challenged" or "person of substance" :D:D:D:D
http://www.bajiroo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/fail-fat-guy.jpg
heinkill
Oct-07-2014, 13:47
Hey, I take offense to this...I bought original IL-2 on first release.....I experienced the glory days of HL......I am married with 2 kids.....my waste size has stayed the same!
My waste size is the same...but the texture is sloppier now.
H
COD is hardly dead. It has the most capable game engine of the lot in regards too the amount of detail, content and activity allowable on a map with decent frame rates.
I had hoped that the BOS development would have been able optimized the ROF game engine a little better by now. Unfortunately they've also taken on another less complex flight sim title, which has to hurt the IL-2 Stalingrad development.
Hopefully the DCS World new EDGE graphic engine will improve its capabilities.
The only thing I see in the future that will bring combat flight sims back from a small genre is VR. VR will provide ten times the immersion we currently have with monitors and TrackIR. Unfortunately current VR hardware requires high Hertz, and high frame rates, which is very hard to achieve with complex combat flight sims. Although I think we will see less complex, high frame rate flight sims with near photorealistic graphics make a considerable comeback with VR.
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-07-2014, 14:09
Regarding the supposed death of CoD I will quote Mark Twain:
"First get your facts, then you can distort them at your leisure."
A little commentary from Winston Churchill might also be appropriate to those who predicted CoD's demise nearly two years ago when 1C pulled the plug, and who continue to babble on with predictions of its death now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJrQuKlktv8
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-07-2014, 14:20
Hold yer horses with the pessimism about player base for sims dropping.
More and more folks are stepping into the mechanized field of virtual war gaming every single day.
May it be Warthunder or ArmA, people are slowly demanding more authenticity with every game they play.
A good example might be indeed the WT crowd slowly playing more actual sims because the devs aren't that focussed on historical accuracy.. just read their forums.
Half of the topics are "Why doesn't plane X behave like the real deal?"
I do believe a game like BoS might be a good transition point for the more motivated "arcade" players, nothing more though..
If "we" (super new to this community so I don't feel THAT involved.. yet) are lucky they will crave for even more, something BoS isn't delivering which has been summarized in the previous posts.
To all of the old folks from "ye olde days", keep your damn hopes up!
Most of us new guys depend on you to set the right examples.. see it as a legacy from one Sim enthusiast the the new ones.
A good title and gaming experience is 50% community after all.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, I think you have hit the nail on the head. ;)
We prefer the terms "horizontally challenged" or "person of substance" :D:D:D:D
http://www.bajiroo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/fail-fat-guy.jpg
Haha gross generalisation retracted in your case.
:)
For CLOD I stick by what I say though I am sad to do so. If a new theatre comes out with new aircraft and proper weather there will be a renaissance for a while. That's a big ask though.
From personal experience, my squad went to CLOD and attendance dropped off massively. More so now.
There aren't big numbers online - mainly ATAG and ACG on Sundays. I hope the Storm of War excels in its latest iteration.
I'm sanguine about the whole thing.
Hood
Oersted
Oct-07-2014, 16:32
"Waste size", hehe....
I think the huffing and puffing by those who viscerally hate the BoS unlocks is terribly exaggerated and really unhelpful for the genre.
1) The developers were upfront about the system from the beginning.
2) the unlocks are pretty quick and easy to achieve (even after the latst update) and many of them are only about cosmetic details.
3) People who buy a sim before release should expect that it can change in many ways before it is finished.
4) To bring in new and young players (all-important) it is necessary to employ modern gaming features.
... - Anyway, if the hate of BoS means that some people will ditch it in favour of Il-2:CoD then that would bring more people to this sim, which would be good.
LuseKofte
Oct-07-2014, 16:47
"Waste size", hehe....
I think the huffing and puffing by those who viscerally hate the BoS unlocks is terribly exaggerated and really unhelpful for the genre.
1) The developers were upfront about the system from the beginning.
2) the unlocks are pretty quick and easy to achieve (even after the latst update) and many of them are only about cosmetic details.
3) People who buy a sim before release should expect that it can change in many ways before it is finished.
4) To bring in new and young players (all-important) it is necessary to employ modern gaming features.
... - Anyway, if the hate of BoS means that some people will ditch it in favour of Il-2:CoD then that would bring more people to this sim, which would be good.
Excactly my points, but there is more to it than that, it is hate involved, and BOS is the big enemy for many
heinkill
Oct-07-2014, 16:55
All of the single player fans losing their gruntle over BoS single player game should just come to CoD...
And as soon as TF fix radio commands and AI glitches, they will never leave again!
H
ZG15_robtek
Oct-07-2014, 17:32
Excactly my points, but there is more to it than that, it is hate involved, and BOS is the big enemy for many
Please don't mix hate and disappointment.
Critic, per se, is not hate, to express one's disappointment about missing/wrong implemented features is not hate.
It is very easy to stamp people which express their disappointment as haters, but that is far from the truth.
Those people love CFS Games, and they were misled by the title IL2-Sturmovik to expect a sim that would be better in all aspects as the original or at least as the abandoned predecessor.
In the case of BoS it is mixed, while it is good in some parts it fails in other parts, i. e. 109 FM, arcadish weapon potency, limited objects etc.
IMO, of course.
There are no haters, just disappointed lovers.
Day 3 or 4 of the time of troubles approaches an end.
After Jason laid down the law and deleted a series of posts, people have had some time to cool down. Although, I think many of the others, like myself have simply come to terms with the fact that 1C / 777 Studios are going to ignore anything the community says.
This post, which will probably be deleted is a great summary:
I've come to the conclusion that I no longer care particularly.
This game will be what they want it to be with or without us.
They don't care whether we stick around or not. They treat us like the enemy rather than a group of valued customers.
It's installed on my PC and it'll remain that way until I get bored of it.
Unless some decent content is added I'm concerned that boredom will come sooner rather than later. It's fun to snack on but there's nothing to really get my teeth into.
Hopefully they get around to making some big changes to rectify some of the mistakes they've made.
I'm not holding my breath - it seems like someone else is pulling the strings other than the people we get to communicate with.
I guess I'll log in and read the forums to see how things are going but I don't see much point in sharing my opinion here any longer.
GL HF
PS. No doubt I'll get the expected "Close the door on your way out" and "What are you telling us for" comments.
Bring them on, they're hilarious.
Anyway, I just felt the developers should know how their attitude (along with the sycophants that feel obligated to comment on behalf of the devs) affects their customer base.
Bad attitude and lack of interesting content will cause people like me to disappear.
Good luck getting the new breed through the door.
Who knows, maybe Jason and company can actually make the campaign better than a glorified quick mission generator maybe they will actually fix the sound hit bug, the buggy flight model for the Bf 109s and the visual lag bug (cannon rounds will explode 10 meters or more behind a plane even if they hit)?
Until then I'm just going to go play some other games and wait on the sidelines.
After all, the hardcore community isn't needed or wanted.
darkside3/4
Oct-07-2014, 20:56
There was almost 300 people online alone in IL2COD alone last weekend. Please tell me another flight sim that is currently on market, past or present, that even comes close to these player numbers? If you think IL2COD online is dead, then all the other flight sims out there must be non-existent. Because Clod is the most active online out of any of them today.
And you're right about combat sims being dead. That's because of the choices the developers have been making. People will most certainly flock to a good capable hardcore sim. It's just the choices for those, especially in the MP arena today, are few and far between. But there are people out there lurking, waiting for the right one to come along, another 1946 or similar. And when all pieces fall into place like the old game did, our little niche market will come back. But not until the people producing the sims realize why the popularity existed in the 1st place.
only online #'s(obviously there's no one on BOS now)
Sep 21st 2100GMT
120 players online on Cliffs
170 on Battle of Stalingrad
300+ on dcs
110 rise of flight
120 hyperlobby il-2 1946
Monday Update Sep 22 2030 GMT with only online visible players....
Cliffs 109
ROF 40
DCS 400
BOS 124
Hyperlobby 1946 115
I enjoy cliffs but Luskofte does have a valid point.
Update now 1800 PST
Cliffs 36
DCS 146
ROF 33
BOS 13 lol
1946 HL 89
And that post you quoted, was made by one of their big supporters from day 1. Good guy.
Kai Lae
Oct-07-2014, 21:21
You know, for all the hating on BoS, the fact that remains is before 777 started saying that their customers are stupid and we know better, that BoS is actually a good game. I mean before the unlock mess, server closings and other stuff. Just ask anyone who was able to play on Eagle's Nest or Syndicate before these changes were made. Sure it wasn't everything you would want it to be, but that doesn't mean it was horrible. If they would just stop telling everyone to drink the cool aid and restore MP to what it was it'd be a perfectly fine game.
It's a shame.
Blade_Meister
Oct-07-2014, 22:40
Well I have to say now, with the latest info I am seeing, I am now beginning to regret buying into BOS.
Earn XP, unlock airplanes, unlock airfields, weapons mods, can only fly single player campaign in normal or expert settings, no custom in between settings, locked graphics presets, etc.
+1 I just left Jason a polite(seriously polite) note in the thread listed above. I love flight Sims, but I rarely have time to fly them much anymore, besides I like to fly ROF, CLOD, DCS and even the old IL2 1946DBW. I do not have time to sit down and fly the Campaign to unlock what I paid for early in the pre purchase. I hope Jason rethinks allowing Gold Members at least to receive BOS fully unlocked. If not I have to admit, I doubt I would be a future customer. While I am here, I just wanted to say thanks to ATAG and especially Team Fusion for forging CLOD ahead into one of the best Flight sims I have ever owned. I wasn't around in the early days of CLOD(heard the nightmare stories, & stayed away, LOL), but even with the limited amount of air time I have had in CLOD(starting from TF 3.0 on) I have thoroughly enjoyed it. The graphics and depiction of simulated flight are top notch, well now that TF has gotten a hold of it. Maybe one of these days I will get a chance to jump in online.:recon:
S!Blade<><
RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-07-2014, 22:52
+1 I just left Jason a polite(seriously polite) note in the thread listed above. I love flight Sims, but I rarely have time to fly them much anymore, besides I like to fly ROF, CLOD, DCS and even the old IL2 1946DBW. I do not have time to sit down and fly the Campaign to unlock what I paid for early in the pre purchase. I hope Jason rethinks allowing Gold Members at least to receive BOS fully unlocked. If not I have to admit, I doubt I would be a future customer. While I am here, I just wanted to say thanks to ATAG and especially Team Fusion for forging CLOD ahead into one of the best Flight sims I have ever owned. I wasn't around in the early days of CLOD(heard the nightmare stories, & stayed away, LOL), but even with the limited amount of air time I have had in CLOD(starting from TF 3.0 on) I have thoroughly enjoyed it. The graphics and depiction of simulated flight are top notch, well now that TF has gotten a hold of it. Maybe one of these days I will get a chance to jump in online.:recon:
S!Blade<><
Thanks for your kind words Blade... comments like yours are the only reward other than personal satisfaction which TF gets for our efforts. :thumbsup:
Glad you enjoy the game and we are hoping to provide additional thrills and chills for the community in the future. ;;)
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-07-2014, 22:58
only online #'s(obviously there's no one on BOS now)
Sep 21st 2100GMT
120 players online on Cliffs
170 on Battle of Stalingrad
300+ on dcs
110 rise of flight
120 hyperlobby il-2 1946
Monday Update Sep 22 2030 GMT with only online visible players....
Cliffs 109
ROF 40
DCS 400
BOS 124
Hyperlobby 1946 115
I enjoy cliffs but Luskofte does have a valid point.
Update now 1800 PST
Cliffs 36
DCS 146
ROF 33
BOS 13 lol
1946 HL 89
But you're not counting players. You're counting servers plus players. There's always 60+ people in HL, for instance, because there's 60 servers. But right now there was 34 "players" in Cliffs and "28" players in HL. 12 players in ROF and there were 0 players in BoS. There were 97 players in DCS. If I added the server count to it, it would be closer to 200. Any name in chat in HL and with the "-H" in hyperlobby is not an actual player in game. And because of how DCS servers work, virtually 70+ servers show 1 player in them at all times because that is the server itself.
I've monitored this for months. Granted DCS did just release several DLC's. But in actual playerbase for virtually the last year, Cliffs has almost always had more total players during peak times than any modern flight sim out there. Of course that can change at any time. But I would hardly call that dying. That's still right on average, at the top where I said it was.
Well thanks ATAG for continuing to help develop this gem of a sim! I'm very thankful this sim is what it is and I agree that its the best sim multiplayer and added bonus that the community can create so much content here! :) Awesom job Fusion! and THANKS again!!!
This game will be what they want it to be with or without us.
They don't care whether we stick around or not. They treat us like the enemy rather than a group of valued customers.
True, Loft alread say in their other forum:
- This game was being made for the other 95% (We are 5%).
- The "Virpilot" is the enemy #1 of the Combat Flight Game.
The problem is these guys previously acting as "cheerleader" and now "betrayed husband" is that they was wearing rainbow glasses al time.
They praise the Devs team as the most communicative off CFS (now renamed for CFG) development of all time, but fail in notice that they were not very informative.
If someone posted a doubt the forum "patrol" usually jump agressivelly, diverting the subject, blame languages differences for misunderstandings, many times leading the topic to be deleted.
As I allways peek in their other forum, the only thing that I faill in understand in early DD is that founders will dont need unlock planes in campaing (as the after release buyers will need do),
all the rest, like unlock things in SP to use in MP, was very clear.
I think that most people fail in understand that this game was planned as "New il-2", not a "il-2 II". :)
Loft explanation for the unlock in SP for use in MP is that the guy will go to MP showing that they are good in SP, that succeeded in campaign, have exclusive skin, custom plane/weapons... :D
Now is wait for the final outcome, wishing they make success with the "95%". :thumbsup:
True, Loft alread say in their other forum:
- This game was being made for the other 95% (We are 5%).
- The "Virpilot" is the enemy #1 of the Combat Flight Game.
The problem is these guys previously acting as "cheerleader" and now "betrayed husband" is that they was wearing rainbow glasses al time.
They praise the Devs team as the most communicative off CFS (now renamed for CFG) development of all time, but fail in notice that they were not very informative.
If someone posted a doubt the forum "patrol" usually jump agressivelly, diverting the subject, blame languages differences for misunderstandings, many times leading the topic to be deleted.
As I allways peek in their other forum, the only thing that I faill in understand in early DD is that founders will dont need unlock planes in campaing (as the after release buyers will need do),
all the rest, like unlock things in SP to use in MP, was very clear.
I think that most people fail in understand that this game was planned as "New il-2", not a "il-2 II". :)
Loft explanation for the unlock in SP for use in MP is that the guy will go to MP showing that they are good in SP, that succeeded in campaign, have exclusive skin, custom plane/weapons... :D
Now is wait for the final outcome, wishing they make success with the "95%". :thumbsup:
You know what, all of that is that correct! Bah I'm now annoyed that I'm agreeing... :stunned: I kinda agree Loft's sentiments too. BOS is a combat flight sim with the emphasis on combat. It's not a study sim or a study sim with guns (DCS) or a half-way house (CLOD), but people don't get that.
The 5% are those that want a study sim or a study sim with guns. They will never be satisfied with BOS and will always consider it a poor relation or not good enough and will criticise it constantly. That's my take on it anyway.
My overall preference is a study sim with guns but with the facility to make things more user-friendly when you're not in the air. DCS seems to have nailed this with the D9 and K4 (or will do when they're all fixed up). It's just a sterile environment for WWII purposes at the moment. I hope DCS becomes the gold standard but that might be in 18 months. I just hope my squad mates have the energy for the increased complexity and possibly the financial cost.
Hood
gavagai
Oct-08-2014, 06:16
If you're curious about the businesses side of these decisions, this presentation is a must-see: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win
While it is not directly applicable to BOS, it is a very candid discussion of how marketers and developers analyze consumer motivation. Loft's point that people will want to show off their single player accomplishments almost makes me think he called Ben Cousins for advice.
TheVino3
Oct-08-2014, 07:02
A lot of games with a single or multi player capability have to be connected at all times. It's hardly a novel idea so I don't know why it's such a major deal save for those without a connection.
Hood
I'm a bit late but...you don't know why it's a major deal? You explained why in your post. Having to be connected at all times has always been a crap idea. It will never not be a crap idea. If I buy a game with an offline component, I should be able to play it whenever/wherever I want. Not where/when the devs think I should be able to play it. If I lose my internet connection for some reason, or want to play somewhere else where I can't get one, I damn well should be able to play offline - there is absolutely no reason why I shouldn't. That's why it's a big deal. It's a joke.
DarkHelmet
Oct-08-2014, 07:15
... I damn well should be able to play offline - there is absolutely no reason why I shouldn't. That's why it's a big deal. It's a joke.
+1
Besides, EA has learned
http://www.simcity.com/en_US/blog/article/simcity-offline-play-now-available-for-pc-and-mac
They received a huge shitstorm after release.
Cheers
Dark
All I can say to this thread (and as a former RoF owner)...I am glad there is Team Fusion. Been flying sims since the "Battle of Britain" days, played IL2 the moment it appeared as demo and pretty much everything else that came out in this regard.
The problem with IL2 BoS, aside the obvious erratics with the Devs, is that I can't see a development. It's a step back to the IL2 days with better graphics. It's really well realized (they really nailed the atmosphere, you gotta give them that)...but in 2014 I somehow expected a bit more in regards to aircraft systems, engine start up and most of all, avionics, which were in many ways much more developed back in those days then most people realize today. IMHO too many developers sacrifice "flying" for just "fighting". I'd like to have both, really, would even spend 1 or 200€ for such a game (think Steal Beasts).
Let's see where DCS is going, by now there are a dozen or more WW2 era planes anounced by various 3d. party developers.
And in the meantime, we have Team Fusion. Thank you guys, you are the only reason my flight gear is not collecting dust currently.
Mysticpuma
Oct-08-2014, 09:27
All of the single player fans losing their gruntle over BoS single player game should just come to CoD...
And as soon as TF fix radio commands and AI glitches, they will never leave again!
H
It's on the list.....hopefully in the next couple of patches.....trust me, I keep poking the nest....I wont let it rest :)
I'm a bit late but...you don't know why it's a major deal? You explained why in your post. Having to be connected at all times has always been a crap idea. It will never not be a crap idea. If I buy a game with an offline component, I should be able to play it whenever/wherever I want. Not where/when the devs think I should be able to play it. If I lose my internet connection for some reason, or want to play somewhere else where I can't get one, I damn well should be able to play offline - there is absolutely no reason why I shouldn't. That's why it's a big deal. It's a joke.
...save for those without a connection
I guess preventing piracy saves them more money than people who won't buy a game because of an always on connection. That plus all the other nefarious reasons (if you listen to some) they might require it.
Hood
I somehow expected a bit more in regards to aircraft systems, engine start up and most of all, avionics, which were in many ways much more developed back in those days then most people realize today. IMHO too many developers sacrifice "flying" for just "fighting". I'd like to have both, really, would even spend 1 or 200€ for such a game (think Steal Beasts).
Ahhhhh a Virpilot! A 5%er! Burn him!
Actually I'm with you on this but with the option to turn off the stuff I don't want (eg engine start up).
Hood
LuseKofte
Oct-08-2014, 10:23
Please don't mix hate and disappointment.
Critic, per se, is not hate, to express one's disappointment about missing/wrong implemented features is not hate.
It is very easy to stamp people which express their disappointment as haters, but that is far from the truth.
Those people love CFS Games, and they were misled by the title IL2-Sturmovik to expect a sim that would be better in all aspects as the original or at least as the abandoned predecessor.
In the case of BoS it is mixed, while it is good in some parts it fails in other parts, i. e. 109 FM, arcadish weapon potency, limited objects etc.
IMO, of course.
There are no haters, just disappointed lovers.
Oh I understand critique, I perfectly understand much of the critiques. But do not tell me much we have seen here not having a agenda against it.
I have written critiques about BOS, there are pretty much with it I do not like. And disappointments yes had those too.
So I critique that part, fair, don't you think?
That said I have learned not to consider anything from this section, Flight sim community get hit annually by hysteria happens most of the time without seeing it coming, but this time you could tell, my guess these two fronts will adapt. Because many in BOS side have done equal against COD. So they aint going over to COD .
Dissapointment and regrets of buying is blamed to the buyer, and the lesson is , do not buy a sim on alpha stage if you cannot afford it
Ahhhhh a Virpilot! A 5%er! Burn him!
Actually I'm with you on this but with the option to turn off the stuff I don't want (eg engine start up).
Hood
The more options the better *nods*
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-08-2014, 12:48
Oh I understand critique, I perfectly understand much of the critiques. But do not tell me much we have seen here not having a agenda against it.
LuseKofte,
The only agenda here is people wanting to get a better sim/game. You may not realize this, but there are people out there, such as myself, where the ONLY style of play they like is in a MP server with lots of people, lots of targets, and immersive action-packed missions. That is it! I'm one of those people. I became accustomed to this in flight simming because of old IL2. I did it years and years. And here I am doing it for years with IL2COD because it allows you to do the same thing.
The point you don't see or fail to see is the fact there are people that ONLY want to play in a situation like I just said. I have 0 interest in a SP campaign. I have never flown one in my life. Once I found MP in HL back in the day, that was the start of the addiction to it.
I got into DCS or should I say, purchased DCS back in beta A10. The ONLY reason I bought it was a mention from the devs, way back then, of them working on a dedicated server. I've bought basically every single DCS module there is and I probably have less than 4 hours in my entire life of playing DCS. And it's simply because you can't get lots of people online at the same time in a mission.
So you look at sims from your own perspective. Even if the FM, AI, DM, graphics or w/e is decent, you think that a sim is a sim and is comparable because of it. Well all the FM, AI, DM, and graphics all take a huge back seat in ability to what I want and what I'm used to doing in flight sims.
So when you use the word agenda, as if you are saying people have pitchforks out, you're very very wrong. I have an agenda to try and make ANY future flight sim do the things I and others enjoy the most. And, maybe by pure luck, the IL2 titles made by Maddox games have done just that. I could care less if an unknown company out of China or Iraq made a modern flight sim that had what I wanted to do in it and that ability. If it did, I would be beyond myself playing it.
You always seem to think there's personal grievances or some sinister plot going on. The only plot and the only reason I write paragraphs to some of these developers is to try to get them to cater to what I want! The beautiful thing about what I want, is it takes absolutely nothing away what you want. If someone decides to develop a sim that can have 100 humans in the air and 1000's of static objects on the ground. It benefits EVERYONE. The problem is, all these new sims are sub par in that area. Will it work for SP? In most cases yes. Will it for small COOP? You bet. Will it work for small fights with your buddies? You bet. But will it work for 80-100 players online with a whole bunch of stuff going on? Nope.
So when I blast off about ability, realize it's because the flight sims that I spend my time on have that ability. And when another sim comes out, especially when it has branded itself as the next continuation of the "IL2" series, and shares jack shit with what the core of IL2 was in the 1st place. People are not complaining because they have some sinister thoughts. People are complaining because the previous 10+ years of IL2 actually had (and what you were used to playing) the ability to do what I as a player, wanted to do in all the years playing it. This new one does not. So do you think I'm going to fly it? Do you think the other IL2 guys who are used to massive online action are going to fly it for years on end when it's a baron wasteland of lifelessness in missions? Probably not.
So while 4-5 years after the original IL2 was out and the community exploded into the best time in flight simming history. ROF kept releasing content and a whole plethora of planes, and, on the other hand, continued to die off. And the reason is the world you fly in has absolutely nothing going on. Cliffs is also boring in the fact that there's one channel map right now.
So don't be so quick to judge people. I'm sure if the flight sim you flew didn't have a mode you enjoyed you wouldn't be so happy either.
Hmmm as of now:
BOS - 76
CLOD - 52
HL - 20 or so
We don't know SP numbers of course.
Hood
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-08-2014, 13:21
Hmmm as of now:
BOS - 76
CLOD - 52
HL - 20 or so
We don't know SP numbers of course.
Hood
Yikes! Don't forget ROF with 16
Doesn't bode well for BOS. You'd think for such a new sim on the verge of final release, it would have hundreds. People unlocking in SP maybe?
Blade_Meister
Oct-08-2014, 13:25
LuseKofte,
The only agenda here is people wanting to get a better sim/game.
THIS IS BLASPHEMY!!! If BOS is a game, don't you dare call CLOD a game!!!
CLOD is a SIM!!! Apologize right now Bliss!
S!Blade<><
Yikes! Don't forget ROF with 16
Doesn't bode well for BOS. You'd think for such a new sim on the verge of final release, it would have hundreds. People unlocking in SP maybe?
Damn, didn't check DCS either.
On the verge of final release but with limited servers/settings plus folks have been playing it for over a year now. Could be the SP unlock or maybe they'll all just wait for final release. Makes more sense than doing everything twice.
Hood
Kai Lae
Oct-08-2014, 21:28
Yikes! Don't forget ROF with 16
Doesn't bode well for BOS. You'd think for such a new sim on the verge of final release, it would have hundreds. People unlocking in SP maybe?
Could be. Also, could be that the available servers are crap. There is, right now, ONE quality server, syndicate. While my playtime has cratered again (plus the unlock thing has sapped motivation) I've only been able to connect to syn's server ONCE. In the middle of the night in europe. Right after the unlock shitstorm. I suspect that there's a good chance that the lack of quality places to play your game is an issue in suppressing participation, which is why them pulling the rug on eagle's is just dumb. They're spiting themselves in the long run no matter what the server costs - as if they were the real problem. Would you want to just play effectively on a dogfight server forever?
Injerin
Oct-08-2014, 23:23
This game isnt what simmers want, it was never built as such and was never really directed towards us. This game will die off just the same. I bought it and I ill live with that :) off to DCS I go
Injerin
Oct-08-2014, 23:29
LuseKofte,
The only agenda here is people wanting to get a better sim/game. You may not realize this, but there are people out there, such as myself, where the ONLY style of play they like is in a MP server with lots of people, lots of targets, and immersive action-packed missions. That is it! I'm one of those people. I became accustomed to this in flight simming because of old IL2. I did it years and years. And here I am doing it for years with IL2COD because it allows you to do the same thing.
The point you don't see or fail to see is the fact there are people that ONLY want to play in a situation like I just said. I have 0 interest in a SP campaign. I have never flown one in my life. Once I found MP in HL back in the day, that was the start of the addiction to it.
I got into DCS or should I say, purchased DCS back in beta A10. The ONLY reason I bought it was a mention from the devs, way back then, of them working on a dedicated server. I've bought basically every single DCS module there is and I probably have less than 4 hours in my entire life of playing DCS. And it's simply because you can't get lots of people online at the same time in a mission.
So you look at sims from your own perspective. Even if the FM, AI, DM, graphics or w/e is decent, you think that a sim is a sim and is comparable because of it. Well all the FM, AI, DM, and graphics all take a huge back seat in ability to what I want and what I'm used to doing in flight sims.
So when you use the word agenda, as if you are saying people have pitchforks out, you're very very wrong. I have an agenda to try and make ANY future flight sim do the things I and others enjoy the most. And, maybe by pure luck, the IL2 titles made by Maddox games have done just that. I could care less if an unknown company out of China or Iraq made a modern flight sim that had what I wanted to do in it and that ability. If it did, I would be beyond myself playing it.
You always seem to think there's personal grievances or some sinister plot going on. The only plot and the only reason I write paragraphs to some of these developers is to try to get them to cater to what I want! The beautiful thing about what I want, is it takes absolutely nothing away what you want. If someone decides to develop a sim that can have 100 humans in the air and 1000's of static objects on the ground. It benefits EVERYONE. The problem is, all these new sims are sub par in that area. Will it work for SP? In most cases yes. Will it for small COOP? You bet. Will it work for small fights with your buddies? You bet. But will it work for 80-100 players online with a whole bunch of stuff going on? Nope.
So when I blast off about ability, realize it's because the flight sims that I spend my time on have that ability. And when another sim comes out, especially when it has branded itself as the next continuation of the "IL2" series, and shares jack shit with what the core of IL2 was in the 1st place. People are not complaining because they have some sinister thoughts. People are complaining because the previous 10+ years of IL2 actually had (and what you were used to playing) the ability to do what I as a player, wanted to do in all the years playing it. This new one does not. So do you think I'm going to fly it? Do you think the other IL2 guys who are used to massive online action are going to fly it for years on end when it's a baron wasteland of lifelessness in missions? Probably not.
So while 4-5 years after the original IL2 was out and the community exploded into the best time in flight simming history. ROF kept releasing content and a whole plethora of planes, and, on the other hand, continued to die off. And the reason is the world you fly in has absolutely nothing going on. Cliffs is also boring in the fact that there's one channel map right now.
So don't be so quick to judge people. I'm sure if the flight sim you flew didn't have a mode you enjoyed you wouldn't be so happy either.
Sorry have to call you out on this my dear friend! We had a campaign last sun that held 40-60 people just fine, it is slowly getting tweaked out. I know DCS will be top dog if there promises of EDGE can hold true.
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-08-2014, 23:42
Sorry have to call you out on this my dear friend! We had a campaign last sun that held 40-60 people just fine, it is slowly getting tweaked out. I know DCS will be top dog if there promises of EDGE can hold true.
That's good. But 50 players compared to 100 is still quite a difference. When our server is full, 40-60 players is usually just on one side (red or blue) not the whole server.
It's good to see it's getting better and better. Lets hope we can get a dedicated server software for it with EDGE.
Chuck_Owl
Oct-09-2014, 00:10
That's good. But 50 players compared to 100 is still quite a difference.
I'd take 50 people with DCS modules anytime over 100 people on CloD.
Like you said, let's wait for EDGE and see the results.
ATAG_Bliss
Oct-09-2014, 00:29
I'd take 50 people with DCS modules anytime over 100 people on CloD.
Like you said, let's wait for EDGE and see the results.
Hi Chuck,
I think you took what I said wrong. I'm a huge WWII prop guy. And I could not imagine trying to do something like this with 25 players a side. (watch the whole thing to get an idea)
Regardless of the fidelity, it would seem like a small squirmish in comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffDMDmk1SpY
I had no idea that they had improved MP so much. I remember chatting with Injerin just a few months back and was told over 30 players it went to hell. So they are either making some serious progress or the servers found a magic setting within the game unbeknown to them before.
Hell, I hope they can get to 200 players. If they can get to 80 - 120, DCS will be unstoppable. Throw in dedicated software so people with machines like ours could host, and it will explode. But I need my WWII planes and Normandy map before getting really excited!! :)
LuseKofte
Oct-09-2014, 01:05
Lets say I am disagreeing, yes I do.
Too me bos still got big potential, it is only some of the people behind it that seems to be the bottleneck.
I agree on the part of basing a game on combatsim community is suicidal for any game developer, we are simply too few, but I disagree on their strategy the way to go is to get rid of those simmers, they seems to believe it is not possible to get both simmers and gamers new to the genre,
Other than that it is really small bits and pieces needed to be fixed.
Yes cod got a better online system, in some way better fm´s but BOS is really not that far behind. In my situation combat simms live or die if one of the two disappear . To me neither of these games will be able to keep an interest in the long run, but both might
PFT_Endy
Oct-09-2014, 02:14
I agree on the part of basing a game on combatsim community is suicidal for any game developer, we are simply too few,
If it was suicidal then Eagle Dynamics (DCS devs) would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. Their customers are pretty much ONLY combatsimmers and the rather hardcore at that, who don't accept half measures.
The point is, any company can make a living making games for the hardcore crowd and be very successful but it needs to find a proper formula. The "you can't make hardcore combat sims and be successfull" is just a lie by 777 and 1C to make you accept lesser standards in BOS just because they went greedy and want to sell more copies, also to non serious simmers.
LuseKofte
Oct-09-2014, 04:05
Dcs are not based on propheads like us they got fsx people too
Foul Ole Ron
Oct-09-2014, 05:34
If it was suicidal then Eagle Dynamics (DCS devs) would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. Their customers are pretty much ONLY combatsimmers and the rather hardcore at that, who don't accept half measures.
I take your point but BOS devs need to make profit more than ED devs. ED have other revenue streams from their military contracts and they're not really in the consumer flight sim business to make oodles of cash. They love hardcore flight sims and if they can avoid making a loss they'll keep going with development. BOS on the other hand need to justify themselves as a business and if they're not delivering a reasonable profit to 1C then there'll be no more development.
gavagai
Oct-09-2014, 06:35
If it was suicidal then Eagle Dynamics (DCS devs) would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. Their customers are pretty much ONLY combatsimmers and the rather hardcore at that, who don't accept half measures.
The point is, any company can make a living making games for the hardcore crowd and be very successful but it needs to find a proper formula. The "you can't make hardcore combat sims and be successfull" is just a lie by 777 and 1C to make you accept lesser standards in BOS just because they went greedy and want to sell more copies, also to non serious simmers.
I'm not sure it is a lie. Jason and his team never figured out how to make Rise of Flight reach its potential, and I think they do not understand why it did not reach its potential. So they attempted to "improve" it in way they understood: with gimmicks and novelties.
The major flaws in RoF are: 1) mission editor that is too obscure for most to learn; 2) aircraft performance discrepancies; 3) very poor AI, which hurts both single-player modes and cooperative play.
Maybe they finally learned on number 3. I hear BOS is supposed to have improved AI someday.
Dcs are not based on propheads like us they got fsx people too
That is the beauty of DCS and why I am looking forward to it...it appeals to the whole range of flight simmers, not just the prop heads. I personally like modern aircraft as well and had huge fun with the A10C. In one or two years, when all those third party aircraft and the WW2 scenario is out, I recon it offers everything to pretty much everybody. I also very much appreciate DCS's sandbox approach towards simming. Throw in a Tornado or a Eurofighter Typhoon and a modern scenario and I will be in sim heaven with everything covered.
LBR=H.Ostermann
Oct-09-2014, 07:49
S!
"new hardcore simmulator"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O-uERZWMxc#t=125
PFT_Endy
Oct-09-2014, 08:10
Dcs are not based on propheads like us they got fsx people too
True, DCS has jets and helos as well. But judging by the interest in DCS P51 and Dora these are profitable projects too, otherwise they would never have been made. Especially Dora would not have been created if the Mustang was a failure. Same goes for future planned planes.
Ron, you are right that ED have other revenue streams, but like any company, if certain projects were not profitable they simply would not get into them. If WWII planes were not profitable they wouldn't have saved the DCS:WWII and bought the project from Luthier. They found their niche and sure, some planes are more and some less profitable but trust me, they're businessmen as much as any other game devs. But they also know they need to stick to their niche and do what their fanbase expects.
I've no idea how much 1C and 777 expected to earn but like you said, apparently they thought they could earn more than could be reasonably expected in this genre. That's why they do many different things to broaden the potential clientele into non simmers, try to add unlocks etc.
This is a very common mistake by many game developer studios. In pursuit of greater revenues they betray their original fanbase, add silly stuff aimed at more people (in theory) etc. I've seen this done many times. Games that were supposed to be ambitious get more and more "streamlined", aimed at a broader audience etc. The funny thing is that in most cases this fails utterly and the game gets neither new customers who are still not into it and it also loses the original fanbase, dismayed by the game getting more mainstream and stupid.
This is how I see BOS. By alienating long time sim fans they will lose this part of revenue and at the same time all the gimmicks they introduce will probably fail to bring in more (or enough) people so far not interested in this type of games to make good revenue. In other words, serious flight simmers will not like it and neither will War Thunder fans who will like WT better anyway, and the game will fail. I may be wrong but this is not a new story in game development and I've really seen it all too often.
ChiefRedCloud
Oct-09-2014, 09:47
To me it seems cod is dead. If you believe 80 people in one server is sustainable , well ok. But sooner or later the incomming pilots will be less than outgoing. Since there Are no real sim to get new fliers.
But my hopes are still up for BOS It kind of typical all this hysteria. For my sake combatsim is dead. If the only one gonna be cod
And when everyone gets tired of noting but snow (barring a spring or fall map release) they will turn else where and most likely back to CloD. I fly both and am entertained (at the moment).
Chief
Here is my take on it, I think BOS is trying to get most WT players over to it. Sure it has unlocks and xp points but no tech tree or having to repair your plane or manage your ground crew. They are thinking a mass exodus of WT to BOS would jump up the sales and the bank account for sure. How long before we see the mouse fly thing? :)
TFcliffs imo was always the successor to 1946. It "feels" like your in the good old IL2, just updated a lot. If you flew 1946 you can find your way around TFcliffs no problem. Even the FMB is about the same . BOS not so much.
I've had this game since day one and I am glad Team Fusion is doing the work they are!
Maybe some day BOS will be a good middle of the road game to go plink around in for fun.
Injerin
Oct-09-2014, 17:46
Hi Chuck,
I think you took what I said wrong. I'm a huge WWII prop guy. And I could not imagine trying to do something like this with 25 players a side. (watch the whole thing to get an idea)
Regardless of the fidelity, it would seem like a small squirmish in comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffDMDmk1SpY
I had no idea that they had improved MP so much. I remember chatting with Injerin just a few months back and was told over 30 players it went to hell. So they are either making some serious progress or the servers found a magic setting within the game unbeknown to them before.
Hell, I hope they can get to 200 players. If they can get to 80 - 120, DCS will be unstoppable. Throw in dedicated software so people with machines like ours could host, and it will explode. But I need my WWII planes and Normandy map before getting really excited!! :)
Yea Bliss Xcom and Greg from the 373rd have been scripting awhile and have come up with alot of Improvements as far as how well DCS plays MP. Its still got some hiccups, but still playable. If that vid was of DCS that would be the Holy Grail to flight simmers being of modern or historical (prop) planes. When DCS gets there ducks in a row and with the release of there WW2 stuff and the EDGE engine I hope we all finally get that holy grail. Of course thats if it is as advertised :)
LuseKofte
Oct-10-2014, 00:53
That is the beauty of DCS and why I am looking forward to it...it appeals to the whole range of flight simmers, not just the prop heads. I personally like modern aircraft as well and had huge fun with the A10C. In one or two years, when all those third party aircraft and the WW2 scenario is out, I recon it offers everything to pretty much everybody. I also very much appreciate DCS's sandbox approach towards simming. Throw in a Tornado or a Eurofighter Typhoon and a modern scenario and I will be in sim heaven with everything covered.
HEy, I want DCS to succeed, I like this sim, But I hate those planes they got, P-51 never liked it, still I bought it, D9 never liked it , aint going to either. For me DCS is not going anywhere where I want to be.
This might change in the future, when multiengine AC comes, but I would not hold my breath. Right now , to me it is a excellent simulation of flight,
heinkill
Oct-10-2014, 02:30
HEy, I want DCS to succeed, I like this sim, But I hate those planes they got, P-51 never liked it, still I bought it, D9 never liked it , aint going to either. For me DCS is not going anywhere where I want to be.
This might change in the future, when multiengine AC comes, but I would not hold my breath. Right now , to me it is a excellent simulation of flight,
Agree, fantastic sim, X plane wise, but no game. Kind of FSX with guns, and one map. The wrong map. Incredibly slow dev timeline, hope I'm still around when WWII title is eventually released!
II/JG77_Con
Oct-10-2014, 09:03
Just been onto the BOS server list and its empty only two servers running ..is that because its a Friday .
Blade_Meister
Oct-10-2014, 15:15
I would encourage Pilots who have tried out BOS to go to Metacritic and register(it takes 2 minutes) and write a fair review of BOS. Right now the only positive reviews are all 10. I am not trying to sway anything, but consumers who are looking at purchasing BOS should know that it is a not a 10. Of course, if you think it is a 10, well then I have to disagree with you, but that is for another thread discussion.:D If you do critique it, please write a fair review, noting positives and negatives. Please don't just bash it. Thanks. :thumbsup:
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/il-2-sturmovik-battle-of-stalingrad/user-reviews
S!Blade<><
wow BoS is getting trashed there!Huge lol at all the 10 scores from the 3rd October. Was there a competition or something?
Continu0
Oct-10-2014, 16:46
wow BoS is getting trashed there!Huge lol at all the 10 scores from the 3rd October. Was there a competition or something?
tbh., Most of those critiques should be deleted. Can`t find one that is actually helpful if you don`t have the game already...
Luthier - 'Trust me, you will love our additions to the single player campaign. Based on true pilot accounts!!'
Flight Sim Community - 'Spitgirl??!! That's your idea of content???!!!'
Jason Williams - 'He should have made her an achievement/unlock, then the community would be like pigs in poo.'
Flight Sim Community - 'Ah, F**k it, I'm off to play 'Rome III - Total Orgy, with breasts'.'
And who could blame them?
:recon:
Screamadelica
Oct-10-2014, 23:17
Rome III - Total Orgy! Where can I get that one? Is it an add on? Definitely a game to add to the collection! :)
II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-11-2014, 04:43
BoS is dead because it's made on an engine not fit for purpose and is shallow in every way that CloD is incredibly deep. Thanks to Team Fusion we now have the means of enjoying those depths.
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 05:09
I have flown cod with great enthusiasm for over a year, but I still don't get the arrogant attitude from this community. Cod really does not have proven itself in any way. COD is a substitute for what could have been. It is 1 living server, with a average on max 80 players weekdays world over.
Bos did not turn out to be what I hoped, but it did turn out the way they said so this massive self-pity nonsense from the victims buying it aint really something I dwell too much over.
That said, it is nothing I would love more than getting 2 servers in cod with population all week. That would have doubled the interest and made a helluva difference. I honestly believe BOS was the one to make that happened, but it was slaughtered here by not too much objectivity.
Myself I am doomed, I am addicted to flightsims, and there are really non around worth spending a weekend on
Continu0
Oct-11-2014, 05:20
I have flown cod with great enthusiasm for over a year, but I still don't get the arrogant attitude from this community.
Can you guide me to a community that is nor arrogant? I have not seen one...
II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-11-2014, 06:52
I have flown cod with great enthusiasm for over a year, but I still don't get the arrogant attitude from this community. Cod really does not have proven itself in any way. COD is a substitute for what could have been. It is 1 living server, with a average on max 80 players weekdays world over.
Bos did not turn out to be what I hoped, but it did turn out the way they said so this massive self-pity nonsense from the victims buying it aint really something I dwell too much over.
That said, it is nothing I would love more than getting 2 servers in cod with population all week. That would have doubled the interest and made a helluva difference. I honestly believe BOS was the one to make that happened, but it was slaughtered here by not too much objectivity.
Myself I am doomed, I am addicted to flightsims, and there are really non around worth spending a weekend on
It's no more arrogant than the Porsche owner saying the Trabant he has hidden in the shed is a POS. It is a simple objective fact that CloD is ten times the sim/game that BoS is. It's also an objective fact that BoS was pitched by its lying devs and producer as a sim when in fact it was always going to be an arcade game. More anger comes from that fraud than any angst over how crap it is.
I have flown cod with great enthusiasm for over a year, but I still don't get the arrogant attitude from this community. Cod really does not have proven itself in any way. COD is a substitute for what could have been. It is 1 living server, with a average on max 80 players weekdays world over.
Bos did not turn out to be what I hoped, but it did turn out the way they said so this massive self-pity nonsense from the victims buying it aint really something I dwell too much over.
That said, it is nothing I would love more than getting 2 servers in cod with population all week. That would have doubled the interest and made a helluva difference. I honestly believe BOS was the one to make that happened, but it was slaughtered here by not too much objectivity.
Myself I am doomed, I am addicted to flightsims, and there are really non around worth spending a weekend on
CloD has not proven itself? With all due respect, why are you still here? This may come as a suprise to you, but some folks actually still like flying here, despite a lack of scenarios. If you are so desperate for a "bigger" flight sim, scenarious and numbers more important then the simulation aspect itself, so much that you just accept everything some Devs throw at you, then that is your (to be respected) descision. Calling others arrogant just because they know what they want from a flight sim themselves and make that argument certainly sounds desperate.
So my condolences to you for being doomed. But yanno, dissing the folks that defend(fly) CloD and have actually found a Sim to their liking won't make BoS any more attractive in return. In fact it is the same people that stayed here during the roughest times of CloD bashing and getting lots of abuse for that. I think a bit of arrogance is justified given this history.
Me, I personally already got burned by the Devs during the RoF times, so been there, done that, stayed with CloD and DCS and could not really bother anymore.
So if you are so unhappy currently, fly around in BoS, or just make a break, look for another hobby, the world's not going to end.
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 07:13
I am here for the same reason as you, and I do not need a permission from you to do so. I am entitled to a opinion as much as you are and what I wrote is no less disrespectful than done here several times.
I enjoy cod as anyone else, but the narrow time and planes to choose from do effect a lot of potential flyers hours in it.
It is too limited and fragile with only one active server. And the patronizing remarks you are spitting out is just a confirmation on my last post
When you have spent the same amount of hours in I will see if you really have the same opinion. You might very well be fed up and left, witch I haven't
Can you guide me to a community that is nor arrogant? I have not seen one...
Arrogant is really a strong word for it, patronizing might cover it better. Simply stating you like BOS is kind of admitting to being retarded in here
I am here for the same reason as you, and I do not need a permission from you to do so. I am entitled to a opinion as much as you are and what I wrote is no less disrespectful than done here several times.
I enjoy cod as anyone else, but the narrow time and planes to choose from do effect a lot of potential flyers hours in it.
It is too limited and fragile with only one active server. And the patronizing remarks you are spitting out is just a confirmation on my last post
And yet I get all the flight Sim fixes I need from this sim and appearantly do lots of others. You may say "fragile", "limited" and you may be right. But as a matter of fact, this condition has remained remarkably stable so far. And it's not as if BoS currently offers any more choice. In fact, it has become stale even faster to a lot of people.
I personally still see much more potential in CloD then in BoS, regarding the engine and it's possebilities alone.
I have flown cod with great enthusiasm for over a year, but I still don't get the arrogant attitude from this community. Cod really does not have proven itself in any way. COD is a substitute for what could have been. It is 1 living server, with a average on max 80 players weekdays world over.
Bos did not turn out to be what I hoped, but it did turn out the way they said so this massive self-pity nonsense from the victims buying it aint really something I dwell too much over.
That said, it is nothing I would love more than getting 2 servers in cod with population all week. That would have doubled the interest and made a helluva difference. I honestly believe BOS was the one to make that happened, but it was slaughtered here by not too much objectivity.
Myself I am doomed, I am addicted to flightsims, and there are really non around worth spending a weekend on
I really don't understand you sometimes.
"COD is a substitute for what could have been."
Maybe, because of 1C decisions. And you're praising one of them. 1C pushed CoD release before it was polished. 1C stopped "BoM" finansing a few months before a relase.
They decided to finance another team for two more years and trying to sell us the product that's in any way behind of a modern sim standards and in some very important parts
behind old il2 standards. And they are using and trashing il2 sturmovik name to decieve people.
Il2 is a sandbox game, people are playing it how they like, some on a servers without cockpit, some on hardcore DF servers, some on online wars, some on great SP campaigns.
That was keeping old il2 alive for so long. If a game is good people will play it, simple as that.
Do you want me to qoute Han saying ," we never wanted to make sandbox" ?
One server ? Well, old il2 DF server couldn't take more than 60 pilots, it started to freeze too much so they had to shut down chat and server messages (that could be due to the mission builders).
Yes there were many small servers but in a last few years before 2011 there were basicaly two main servers. It would be nice to have it in CloD but for that we need more pilots.
Servers are there to choose different type of missions and gameplay. BoS for sure won't help there. People generaly like pew,pew... boom.
How BoS will make that happen ? Look at that "rigid single player" missions that they were concentrating their efforts on. Have you seen more than 10 planes and a few ground units there ?
When your He-111 is burned with 1-2 bursts of MG, two MG by the way ? Is that it ?
Any serious online war is impossible with that engine because of the limitations with a ground units.
Look at the campaigns that we were/are playing, SoW, ACG, ATAG, look what HR guys are doing two times a week, they made SEOW campaigns for Cliffs because it's possible.
And BoS team even have to finance their own servers. That was never needed for il2. People did that because they liked.
Continu0
Oct-11-2014, 07:38
Arrogant is really a strong word for it, patronizing might cover it better. Simply stating you like BOS is kind of admitting to being retarded in here
Same goes for stating to like CloD on the BoS-Forum, I guess. And be aware that there is only a minority even discussing in this corner of the forum. Most people are here, discussing CloD-things and helping each other. You know, it`s always the minority... :D
And btw., how many hours do you have in CloD?
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 07:45
The thing is, I have a tremendous respect for Bliss and his fellow members here, Team Fusion I am eternal grateful. I fly clod when at home and as much as I possible can , but it is and will always be a monotony sequence of repeating flights, if this continues.
I start up on the runway and shut down again, more and more does this happens. Almost like battle fatigue .
I have a solution for this, more active public fliers, BOS site have already recruited quite a few, and the sim itself will make a huge potential for the same.
I have flown computer based sims since 1996, and I wish for it to grow. By doing so, I tend to point the finger on what I think is the problem.
In clod it is easy, decided community,and too few fliers . I do not blame ATAG and their superb server, they probably the one keeping it alive. I do not blame the mission makers, they keep it alive swell. I blame the possibilities for recruitments. Launching a war against BOS does only make a wall. It might very well be inferior to COD, but if I do not like it I ignore it.
To me BOS is a posibility to revitilase the community, but so far it is only brought the typical hysteria and a state of war forcing people to choose sides. For some reason I have been put on the BOS side, in other sites I am on the COD side,
You might put me where you like I am here for flight amusement, that is the side I am on. If that bring me in some sort of a degenerated rank among others , well I am too old to care less
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 07:50
I work 3 weeks on and 3 weeks off. I spend half the year behind a stick in general. I need to access steam to see how many hours here, but IL 2 is about 14 years all in
Continu0
Oct-11-2014, 08:01
I blame the possibilities for recruitments. Launching a war against BOS does only make a wall. It might very well be inferior to COD, but if I do not like it I ignore it.
To me BOS is a posibility to revitilase the community, but so far it is only brought the typical hysteria and a state of war forcing people to choose sides. For some reason I have been put on the BOS side, in other sites I am on the COD side,
Very good and valid point that you have. But personally, I don`t see that war coming to an end, unless 1CGS releases the source code or one of the sims dies permanently.
With the given situation, CloD can`t live (officially) because BoS is there and CloD is percieved as a threat on the BoS-side (+ there is a lot of anger from BoS-players who were disappointed by CloD back in the days). So I belive there will always be these two fronts, because the games are somehow closely connected by the history they have behind them.
I believe those fronts would be weakened if both games were more independent. I don`t think that fronts like this ever existed between other flight sims (e.g. CoD and DCS, or DCS and BoS)...
ATAG_Colander
Oct-11-2014, 08:02
Luse,
Perhaps what you are feeling is the "change of scenery" as in BoS you have a different map with different planes. This will eventually change in CloD.
In any case, an unsolicited word of advice:
You can't convince people that already made up their mind. The must you can do is ask them to give it a try.
You have valid points about both CloD and BoS but, no matter how much you repeat them, those that are on either side of the fence will not jump to the other side.
There are two different ways of thinking, one matches BoS, the other CloD better. That's a fact and that's how it always be.
Personally I don't like BoS, never played it and never will but for completely different reasons than gameplay. For this reason I abstain of giving any opinion about it but I can assure you, there's nothing that any of the players can say that will change my mind.
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 08:21
I respect the fact of people not liking to fly BOS, I am no sure I will after a while. I just want a movement in the genre . Show the people with money we are a group worth invest on. But you right, I only repeat myself and lie this at rest.
I am empty of ammo
Personally I don't like BoS..... For this reason I abstain of giving any opinion about it.
I understand you mean an opinion about gameplay etc rather than its existence?
Overall you're right Colander but it goes both ways. Folks being a moderate or positive voice about BOS get pilloried in here.
This forum is only good for whinging about 1C, 777, Jason Williams or BOS generally.
Hood
ATAG_Colander
Oct-11-2014, 08:28
I respect the fact of people not liking to fly BOS, I am no sure I will after a while. I just want a movement in the genre . Show the people with money we are a group worth invest on. But you right, I only repeat myself and lie this at rest.
I am empty of ammo
That's a different issue altogether.
Yes, there's people with money. There's people that has bought CloD, BoS, and even given to the kickstarter that don't even play all of them.
I think the problem here is the amount of potential players. In a simple game (think Angry Birds) you get millions of people as costumers whereas on a comprehensive flight sim you'll get only a few thousands.
All the game dev. companies know this and this is why only those who love the genre as we do, even try investing time and money on them. Sadly the bean counters are not flight simulator lovers.
Skoshi_Tiger
Oct-11-2014, 08:35
I've just come back from holidays and am downloading the updated BofS.
Have the devs stated if we'll be able to keep any unlocks we achieve after the Beta finishes, or are they going to reset it when it goes live to even up the playing field?
Regarding the previous discussion about waste sizes- over the last three months I dropped about 5 kilo's and a waist size in my jeans..... I feel like I've put half of it back on during the last two weeks! Gward!!! Too much bacon for breakfast and beers watching the sun go down over the ocean! ;)
ATAG_Colander
Oct-11-2014, 08:36
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/40/4057727ac98e785cc3d4662ae1f46a1c0cae05203dd2232b28 e38bedc337f7b0.jpg
Continu0
Oct-11-2014, 08:42
Have the devs stated if we'll be able to keep any unlocks we achieve after the Beta finishes, or are they going to reset it when it goes live to even up the playing field?
Unlocks will be reset at release...
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 08:46
To sum it up for all. inclusive Vranac.
I have debated against you Vranac on several occasions. For one reason only. You are a true BOS / DEV hater and you are / have been deeming BOS on bases you really not have experienced in person.
That said I share your devotion in cod, I have really no reason what so ever disagreeing in your opinion of history, cod and game development.
I have been warned several times discussing in here (defending the fact that BOS simply cannot be defined as a bad sim) I still say that, it is just too good to be bad. It just seems to have a greater potential than the developers are letting it have.
Wether it is going to be worth while in the long run is another thing. One thing is for sure, 777 studios seems to be their own worst enemy, their capacity to understand english is worser than mine, their temperament is worser than mine, and their ways of treating customers are getting worser and worser.
I have many times really felt attacked here just for being moderate and in-between, I am sure it is my limited gramma in english that make me offended and me to offend others.
I just can imagine how it is for those russian blokes.
Anyway, I give up. I have made my point and I have defended it way too many times, and as Colander here says I am repeating myself
To sum it up for all. inclusive Vranac.
I have many times really felt attacked here just for being moderate and in-between, I am sure it is my limited gramma in english that make me offended and me to offend others.
I just can imagine how it is for those russian blokes.
Honestly Luse, I have not seen you attacked for your views, or you being offensive for your views at all.
Some like BOS, some like Cliffs of Dover, some like both. Nothing wrong at all with any of these.
Me personally - I was somewhat fond of BOS all through the early access period, right up to the initial campaign update/release about a week ago. The style they are going is just not for me, so I will focus my combat flight simming elsewhere for now - namely TF Cliffs, IL-2 1946, and DCS. I just reinstalled 1946 this morning and am in process of getting it updated.
Don't give up on TF Cliffs, at least for the long term - TF appears to have some great plans for it, including new planes/maps/theatres... I think it will always be a nice addition for the WWII Combat Sim Genre.
ATAG_Colander
Oct-11-2014, 09:34
Honestly Luse, I have not seen you attacked for your views, or you being offensive for your views at all.
+1
Up to now I think this discussion has been as respectful as it can be. Other similar threads have ended up locked real quick :)
If anyone feels attacked in some way, I suggest a PM to the moderators to clear things up.
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 09:56
I have lied to this community, I do what I say I never would :ind: I have buyed the Dora in DCS, I am starting to get desperat. Now I will find myself as a flying target in DCS world in a DORA
ATAG_Colander
Oct-11-2014, 10:12
I have lied to this community, I do what I say I never would :ind: I have buyed the Dora in DCS, I am starting to get desperat. Now I will find myself as a flying target in DCS world in a DORA
You are doing better than me then. I've been able to take off only once in 5 attempts :)
I have lied to this community, I do what I say I never would :ind: I have buyed the Dora in DCS, I am starting to get desperat. Now I will find myself as a flying target in DCS world in a DORA
One of us, one of us one of us....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C4uTEEOJlM
I knew you would come around lusekoftan.
II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-11-2014, 10:32
I've been playing with the TF51 this afternoon (mostly sitting in it listening to the rain). I managed to take off on my 2nd attempt, after turning off the engine and taking half an hour to work out how to turn it back on. First landing was ok (no brakes but rolled to a stop using the parking brake). My biggest concern was the 30fps. 51fps looking at nothing but sky through the top of the canopy. Something's not right with that kind of graphics-card thumping (GTX780).
The feeling of flight was very nice...the nose didn't twang around on rubber-bands at least and inputs were smooth and natural.
Then I went and looked at the Dora for a while, with "$49" on the page. Followed by thoughts of the EDGE engine never making it, a Normandy map never making it, any kind of WW2 environment never making it, much less a proper combat sim. Paint me cynical and blame BoS. Hopefully they'll have another sale soon.
To sum it up for all. inclusive Vranac.
I have debated against you Vranac on several occasions. For one reason only. You are a true BOS / DEV hater and you are / have been deeming BOS on bases you really not have experienced in person.
That said I share your devotion in cod, I have really no reason what so ever disagreeing in your opinion of history, cod and game development.
I have been warned several times discussing in here (defending the fact that BOS simply cannot be defined as a bad sim) I still say that, it is just too good to be bad. It just seems to have a greater potential than the developers are letting it have.
Wether it is going to be worth while in the long run is another thing. One thing is for sure, 777 studios seems to be their own worst enemy, their capacity to understand english is worser than mine, their temperament is worser than mine, and their ways of treating customers are getting worser and worser.
You're wrong Luse, I don't hate them at all nor their game. It's just not for me, I saw that very early from very detailed explenations from Loft and Han.
You can throw in there very vague way , to say it politely, how did they get a chance to make BoS.
And when I saw the first screenshoots, that was it. It just don't look realistic there is no colors there, there is no contrast, not to mention textures from year 2000.
Does your game look even close to this ? This is from devs.
12240
And you're wrong in your opinion that 777 devs are their own enemy. They understand english very well. They just don't care about opinions.
They have their own and they are entitled to that. Hard core simmers are not their target group. They know that 5% of their customers are writing on the forum and 15% are reading.
They won't change their plans because of that.
I don't beleive you're warned because your opinion here, you're probably because about your chosen words or personal attacks.
My posts about Bos were never against or to provoke anyone and the most of the times were backed with videos or translated answers from devs.
Nevertheless there were always people jumping in with: " Oh it's something lost in a translation", or with " It's only xx %" mantra.
Chuck_Owl
Oct-11-2014, 11:52
@Siggi:
You didn't get banned because you disagreed with what 777 was doing or because you were voicing your opinion. You got banned because you blatantly said that they were balancing flight models to make a side better than the other... a serious accusation that you never backed up with any quantifiable factual proof. It's one thing to say that an unlock system prevents you from enjoying features of the game or that you dislike the setting or the number of planes available, but it's another thing to call BS on physics models. Plus, when people started asking you to back your claims with something, you started spamming EVERY youtuber's videos about Battle of Stalingrad with messages saying "do not buy this product: it is garbage". Including mine, Requiem's and many others'.
It was uncivilized, disrespectful and unacceptable.
Free speech and hate speech are two very different things. I think yours falls in the category of the latter.
I've been playing with the TF51 this afternoon (mostly sitting in it listening to the rain). I managed to take off on my 2nd attempt, after turning off the engine and taking half an hour to work out how to turn it back on. First landing was ok (no brakes but rolled to a stop using the parking brake). My biggest concern was the 30fps. 51fps looking at nothing but sky through the top of the canopy. Something's not right with that kind of graphics-card thumping (GTX780).
The feeling of flight was very nice...the nose didn't twang around on rubber-bands at least and inputs were smooth and natural.
Then I went and looked at the Dora for a while, with "$49" on the page. Followed by thoughts of the EDGE engine never making it, a Normandy map never making it, any kind of WW2 environment never making it, much less a proper combat sim. Paint me cynical and blame BoS. Hopefully they'll have another sale soon.
EDGE is almost here, I saw a demo of elements of it running on the current map a few months ago at the Duxford Flying Legends show. Normandy and DCS:WWII were Luthier's mistakes and ED has stepped in to get them finished and I think the list of third party projects will drive the necessity for a WWII terrain. FWIW development has been slow in the past but I've not seen ED wilfully deceive their customers. With a strong stable of third party developers its no longer all on ED to release content so I don't see why they won't be able to deliver.
@Siggi:
You didn't get banned because you disagreed with what 777 was doing or because you were voicing your opinion. You got banned because you blatantly said that they were balancing flight models to make a side better than the other... a serious accusation that you never backed up with any quantifiable factual proof. It's one thing to say that an unlock system prevents you from enjoying features of the game or that you dislike the setting or the number of planes available, but it's another thing to call BS on physics models. Plus, when people started asking you to back your claims with something, you started spamming EVERY youtuber's videos about Battle of Stalingrad with messages saying "do not buy this product: it is garbage". Including mine, Requiem's and many others'.
It was uncivilized, disrespectful and unacceptable.
Free speech and hate speech are two very different things. I think yours falls in the category of the latter.
and I got banned for saying your use of a smiley was "silly" go figure
Normandy and DCS:WWII were Luthier's mistakes and ED has stepped in to get them finished and I think the list of third party projects will drive the necessity for a WWII terrain.
What mistakes ?
His team was responsible for 3D models and I haven't seen any problems in that part. ED was making FM's.
Maybe it was a mistake to give all planes for 40$ to backers ? ED didn't know that or they didn't know how much will cost them to make those FM's ?
I really doubt that.
Sorry for the off.
II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-11-2014, 12:31
@Siggi:
You didn't get banned because you disagreed with what 777 was doing or because you were voicing your opinion. You got banned because you blatantly said that they were balancing flight models to make a side better than the other... a serious accusation that you never backed up with any quantifiable factual proof. It's one thing to say that an unlock system prevents you from enjoying features of the game or that you dislike the setting or the number of planes available, but it's another thing to call BS on physics models. Plus, when people started asking you to back your claims with something, you started spamming EVERY youtuber's videos about Battle of Stalingrad with messages saying "do not buy this product: it is garbage". Including mine, Requiem's and many others'.
It was uncivilized, disrespectful and unacceptable.
Free speech and hate speech are two very different things. I think yours falls in the category of the latter.
Wrong. I was perma-banned because I exposed their despicable behaviour on a site they couldn't control. They claimed I was banned for posting stuff on their forum, but I'd already been suspended for thirty days, so the lie was rather obvious (how could I be banned for posting stuff if I was suspended and unable to post?).
And yes, I did spam youtube videos. The sowed the whirlwind and got what they deserved, a shed-load of bad (deserved) publicity. And when you talk about "uncivilized, disrespectful and unacceptable" you have no idea what was going on behind the scenes via PM. Talk to me about "uncivilized, disrespectful and unacceptable" when you do. Revvin knows some of it, he was on the sharp end and I came to his defence. Jason Williams is a vicious, egotistical, vindictive bully with not a shred of respect for anyone or anything that doesn't serve his own greedy and self-serving ends. And he employs mods of similar character. Did I fight fire with fire? If I did, sad, matters.
And it is still my opinion the game has nerfed LW FMs. They want a VVS turkey-shooter for the arcade market. Why do I have such an opinion? Ask yourself how it can be the VVS fighters fly so beautifully while the LW ones are like punch-drunk cripples. Accident? LOL!
And don't get me started on the fact that some of the devs are/were members of the two most notorious cheating and game-gaming scumbag squads in the original IL2...Flying Barans and ROSS. Loft and ViKs. Yeah, their dream finally came true...went from having to hack code to cheat to building an entire game themselves so they can cheat.
II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-11-2014, 12:36
EDGE is almost here, I saw a demo of elements of it running on the current map a few months ago at the Duxford Flying Legends show. Normandy and DCS:WWII were Luthier's mistakes and ED has stepped in to get them finished and I think the list of third party projects will drive the necessity for a WWII terrain. FWIW development has been slow in the past but I've not seen ED wilfully deceive their customers. With a strong stable of third party developers its no longer all on ED to release content so I don't see why they won't be able to deliver.
Sounds hopeful. How did it look? Radically different/better than the current graphics engine? Did you get to see any of the effects (cannon-strikes etc)?
I'm fighting hard not to buy the Dora but Chuck's .pdf has got me going weak at the knees. :D
ATAG_Septic
Oct-11-2014, 12:38
Steady on chaps please.
Septic.
ATAG_Colander
Oct-11-2014, 12:38
Normandy and DCS:WWII were Luthier's mistakes
Care to elaborate? Personally I have no idea what happened but I surely would like to know.
What mistakes ?
His team was responsible for 3D models and I haven't seen any problems in that part. ED was making FM's.
Maybe it was a mistake to give all planes for 40$ to backers ? ED didn't know that or they didn't know how much will cost them to make those FM's ?
I really doubt that.
Sorry for the off.
ED wasn't going to be responsible for all FM's to my knowledge though they were helping with the 109 and Spit. Third party modules are submitted to ED so that their flight model and systems (for a jet for example) can be 'certified' by ED as to the level they are AFM, PFM etc. The mistakes I was referring to were simply Luthier's project management, perhaps his over ambition and what he gave away for such a small price and his lack of communication. ED didn't have anything to do with the running of the Kickstarter. Its a shame his project failed, I backed it myself though I wondered how he could give away as much as he was for such little contribution which was why when the rewards system was redefined once ED took over I didn't complain.
ATAG_Snapper
Oct-11-2014, 12:47
Steady on chaps please.
Septic.
Agree. Please stay on topic, everyone.
Sounds hopeful. How did it look? Radically different/better than the current graphics engine? Did you get to see any of the effects (cannon-strikes etc)?
I'm fighting hard not to buy the Dora but Chuck's .pdf has got me going weak at the knees. :D
The map needs to be optimised for EDGE so don't expect huge differences right away on the existing terrain though it will look better and what I saw apparently wasn't full v2.00 just elements of it. I replied because you seemed to think it might not make it and I can understand why given the delays so far but having seen just a sneek peek of it and the increase in communication about it makes me very hopeful ED will have it ready soon.
**EDIT** Sorry I took this off topic talking about DCS
Chuck_Owl
Oct-11-2014, 13:12
And yes, I did spam youtube videos. The sowed the whirlwind and got what they deserved, a shed-load of bad (deserved) publicity. And when you talk about "uncivilized, disrespectful and unacceptable" you have no idea what was going on behind the scenes via PM. Talk to me about "uncivilized, disrespectful and unacceptable" when you do. Revvin knows some of it, he was on the sharp end and I came to his defence. Jason Williams is a vicious, egotistical, vindictive bully with not a shred of respect for anyone or anything that doesn't serve his own greedy and self-serving ends. And he employs mods of similar character. Did I fight fire with fire? If I did, sad, matters.
Believe me, I'm very much aware of what's going on behind the scenes (probably more than you might think), and I got burned pretty bad too. Still, it is neither the time nor place to talk about that kind of stuff.
But last time I checked, I don't work for 777. I did not DESERVE to be part of this crusade against 777. My "uncivilized, disrespectful and unacceptable" point is not about all that happened on the forums (I couldn't care less about that... as it does not concern me). It's about the fact that my videos are my intellectual property. I am not a promoter, nor am I an employee that is paid to make videos about certain flight sims. I do this on a voluntary basis and I don't earn a single cent from it.
You did not hurt 777 by doing what you did. You hurt the guys who made the actual videos. 777 couldn't care less about what I do on youtube.
That's the point I'm trying to make, Siggi.
Moderator's note: Chuck_Owl and Siggi, please take this discussion to Private Mail. This is off topic and and I've already asked once for everyone to stay on-topic. Please show me and the ATAG Forum the respect of doing just that.
Thank you,
Snapper :salute:
gavagai
Oct-11-2014, 13:25
I've been playing with the TF51 this afternoon (mostly sitting in it listening to the rain). I managed to take off on my 2nd attempt, after turning off the engine and taking half an hour to work out how to turn it back on. First landing was ok (no brakes but rolled to a stop using the parking brake). My biggest concern was the 30fps. 51fps looking at nothing but sky through the top of the canopy. Something's not right with that kind of graphics-card thumping (GTX780).
Set the visibility range to medium instead of high.
ChiefRedCloud
Oct-11-2014, 13:34
Hmmm as of now:
BOS - 76
CLOD - 52
HL - 20 or so
We don't know SP numbers of course.
Hood
Sorry but what are these numbers ... ?
Chief
Chuck_Owl
Oct-11-2014, 13:48
@Snapper: Message received and understood.
Sorry about that.
ATAG_Snapper
Oct-11-2014, 13:51
No worries, mate. Thank you! :salute:
ChiefRedCloud
Oct-11-2014, 14:02
The thing is, I have a tremendous respect for Bliss and his fellow members here, Team Fusion I am eternal grateful. I fly clod when at home and as much as I possible can , but it is and will always be a monotony sequence of repeating flights, if this continues.
I start up on the runway and shut down again, more and more does this happens. Almost like battle fatigue .
I have a solution for this, more active public fliers, BOS site have already recruited quite a few, and the sim itself will make a huge potential for the same.
I have flown computer based sims since 1996, and I wish for it to grow. By doing so, I tend to point the finger on what I think is the problem.
In clod it is easy, decided community,and too few fliers . I do not blame ATAG and their superb server, they probably the one keeping it alive. I do not blame the mission makers, they keep it alive swell. I blame the possibilities for recruitments. Launching a war against BOS does only make a wall. It might very well be inferior to COD, but if I do not like it I ignore it.
To me BOS is a posibility to revitilase the community, but so far it is only brought the typical hysteria and a state of war forcing people to choose sides. For some reason I have been put on the BOS side, in other sites I am on the COD side,
You might put me where you like I am here for flight amusement, that is the side I am on. If that bring me in some sort of a degenerated rank among others , well I am too old to care less
It's almost like the "old" Banana Forums have migrated to the BoS forums, huh?
Chief
II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-11-2014, 14:14
Roger that Snapper. Shame you weren't a mod on the BoS forums. :salute:
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 14:16
Yes painful memories comming back....
II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-11-2014, 14:32
Set the visibility range to medium instead of high.
Cheers Gav, I'll give that a go.
It's almost like the "old" Banana Forums have migrated to the BoS forums, huh?
Chief
And luckily so. Some of the newcomers there back during CloD develoment were atrocious.
ATAG_Snapper
Oct-11-2014, 14:45
Roger that Snapper. Shame you weren't a mod on the BoS forums. :salute:
Thanks, Siggi. :salute:
I figure I've got it easy on this forum. :)
Siggi, whatever happened I know your true hardcore simmer. Not a step back for a truth..Some will not like it but thats their problem. Just throw a facts into their faces but have respect for fellow simmers. Arselickers ans personal friends will always do what they think is defending the game. Most of the stuff which youv said is true and I know that since I was their core tester. They changed n17 roll rate (in ROF) just after few of core testers (mouse me included) complained. That was last fix. Now, same guy with whom I worked (Han) cynicaly comments on fw190 roll rate. He asks for data. i wonder where he found his data..data which says it wasnt faster than lagg hahaha....oftpic mode off.
Bos is a great game as warthunder 2 and ill be happingly sell it or gift it to some kid with gamepad...
but future is bright, CLOD is gettin better and better, new dcs is coming...if some are happy with BOS thats ok, but be sure I wouldnt give a damn...
Injerin
Oct-11-2014, 15:42
Thanks, Siggi. :salute:
I figure I've got it easy on this forum. :)
LOL! Is that Snapper Sarcasm?
We just need to issue you the right to do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp-QPNz6e2M
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 15:46
Well. I find Bos as challanging as cod, and that is patronizing right there ;)
But it is also a opinion I can respect. But there is not much respect the other way around and that border to disrespect to fellow simmers
Mastiff
Oct-11-2014, 15:56
@Snapper: Message received and understood.
Sorry about that.
I don't know why snapper and the moderators think that a post needs to be adhered to ASAP, when you where probably typing the same time he posted, so there needs to be a moderator time out for 24 hours response times to other post or rebuttals..
I would suggest moderators, lock the post when they make a please stay on topic or you be banned type response. to give people time to read that statement.
:gmorning:
Mastiff
Oct-11-2014, 16:00
@siggi
I'm still pissed you spammed my youtube, so no respect to your sir, your opinion will not change what I like.
LuseKofte
Oct-11-2014, 16:29
Well, I cannot say I respect hateful revenge spam, it is really really very close to good old banana forum. I just thought we weren't there yet
Keep up the good work Snapper:thumbsup:
Care to elaborate? Personally I have no idea what happened but I surely would like to know.
I don't know either, but suspect he didn't have the financial backing he suggested he had, and the kickstarter monies weren't going to last much longer than six months anyway. I believe he was hoping for a much large Kickstarter stake, and was left between a rock and hard-place to continue after receiving a minimal kickstarter amount. Luthier has always underestimated how long it was going to take to get something done, and also wonder how good he was at managing his employees, judging by some of his forum comments.
You probably understand more than most the endless difficulties in developing a WW2 scenario with one's and zero's. Its almost impossible to suggest an accurate time-line.
II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-11-2014, 19:33
Meanwhile, on-topic, BoS is still shite. :D
I don't know either, but suspect he didn't have the financial backing he suggested he had, and the kickstarter monies weren't going to last much longer than six months anyway. I believe he was hoping for a much large Kickstarter stake, and was left between a rock and hard-place to continue after receiving a minimal kickstarter amount. Luthier has always underestimated how long it was going to take to get something done, and also wonder how good he was at managing his employees, judging by some of his forum comments.
I don't know either, Chivas me ole chum. What's more, I don't much care anymore.
As a consumer, I was let down by 1C/Maddox Games, I was let down by Mr Shevchenko/Kickstarter, then I was let down again by 1C/Uncle Jason.
The one part of Ilya's Kickstarter promo vid which sticks in my mind is; 'No-one can hope to reproduce Oleg's game...'
Damned right. And we should all collectively cease to throw our money at these scheisters.
I can't imagine the total shit storm to come, when 'Star Citizen' is released, and the entire world realises that after all, it's just a computer game.........
1C/Uncle Jason hehe my new name for 777!
I think I have learned in the last few years that I will not back a game, kickstarter or Early Access . I want them all to succeed in the end. If ED didn't step up we backers would be hanging in the wind. And BOS has become, well whatever it is now..console/arcade/thing with XP's. So yeah I wont throw my money at anymore. I will take the "oh yeah you got a good game? Put it out and then I might buy it approach." from now on. 1946 still works!:)
hehe my new name for 777!
I think I have learned in the last few years that I will not back a game, kickstarter or Early Access . I want them all to succeed in the end. If ED didn't step up we bakers would be hanging in the wind. And BOS has become, well whatever it is now..console/arcade/thing with XP's. So yeah I wont throw my money at anymore. I will take the "oh yeah you got a good game? Put it out and then I might buy it approach." from now on. 1946 still works!:)
I am with you, I bought BOS Early Access when it was first offered, and backed the Kickstarter for DCS WWII ( even more funds than BOS Premium ), and I have learned my lesson from both of these.
I will never do that again, especially for 1C/777. And certainly not for anything that Ilya's name might be tagged on.
I am with you, I bought BOS Early Access when it was first offered, and backed the Kickstarter for DCS WWII ( even more funds than BOS Premium ), and I have learned my lesson from both of these.
I will never do that again, especially for 1C/777. And certainly not for anything that Ilya's name might be tagged on.
Long live TFcliffs! My main game, well besides 1946 :-P
Long live TFcliffs! My main game, well besides 1946 :-P
Agree with that!
I also just reinstalled 1946 this morning, got it modded up to HSFX 7.03.
Still have to create my Warthog profile for it, once I get that done looking forward to giving it a spin - has been a long time.
TF Cliffs though, will remain my main game for quite some time! Can't wait to see what TF5 brings.
II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-11-2014, 21:57
I lolled, long and hard:
Dear WernerVoss,
We have all heard your opinions. While a lot of them has merit, you only listen at half of what other posters have to say and keep on hammering on about things that are not relevant to this sim. This was never going to be the "most realistic online squad sim" if you read the dev blogs. It is however a lot of things and the big plus is that the current developer (forget about modders for now) acknowledges that things are wrong and they have indicated that they will be spending effort in the next 6 to 12 months to fix some of them. This developer also asked for suggestions and contributions.
Now instead of venting yourself out here, please consider compiling a list of the most serious issues and submitting them to the developer instead. That way your concerns are heard by someone that cares and can actually make a difference.
I don't believe you are wrong, but your posts are sweeping/immature/tiring and your energy can be spent in a more constructive way. Please make that list and send it to the developer. If you don't want to then fine, but please stop posting about it here.
I'm quite sure any list I might send to the developers would be trumped by their exclusive access to hitherto unknown sources of data. Like the ones that have the LaGG3 out-rolling the Fw190. For just one example amongst many. I think I'll not waste my time. As if any such fidelity could be expected of an arcade game anyway. Or is it the lack of fidelity that makes it an arcade game? A bit chicken and egg I guess.
And we've heard that kind of "6 to 12 months" tosh before, with RoF. We're still waiting for the FM revisions that were promised for it years ago. And we'll be flogging the same dead horse with BoS years from now. Well, we would if its corpse hadn't been dragged to the knacker's yard and boiled for glue.
And that's what all this hullabaloo is about now; a corpse. Yet to be still-born but that's as inevitable as death and taxes. Do you not read the multitude of forums and the posts of the huge majority that have already condemned this game? None of which would have happened if it hadn't been touted as a sim from the outset. If we'd been clearly told what it was really going to be it would have garnered the same kind of attention as Birds of Prey...a quaint arcade blaster that nobody need take particularly seriously or care much about.
There's a Monty Python's sketch about a dead parrot that's quite apropos. Check it out on youtube.
I like your response back to luke.
Meanwhile, on-topic, BoS is still shite. :D
Care to elaborate exactly why it is shite? Objectively and setting aside your prejudices I mean?
Hood
LuseKofte
Oct-12-2014, 05:51
Forget it Hood, knowing the history óf that guy, he really only wish to stir shit. It is about all he can do
ATAG_Snapper
Oct-12-2014, 06:02
This thread has run its course. Thanks to all for contributing.
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