Stock 109 Maneuvers - How To

[GloriousRuse]

I often recommend a series of stock maneuvers to new 109 pilots, or 109 pilots who have plateau'd at the point where they can win a bounce, but not a dogfight. I have no claim to being an ace dogfighter myself, but I do know that with these basic moves in the quiver, any intermediate 109 pilot can greatly increase their chances of prevailing over all but the best spit and hurri drivers. Comments are welcome. The first maneuver we look at is...

The Displacement Roll

The Problem: I keep up my discipline, get good bounces, but those Red's keep looking out their six and just start to TUUURRRRNNN for life when I come down. My 109 cannot TUURRRN for life, so eventually I either run out of E or break off the attack. Even if I Yo Yo in for a deflection shot, I am not very good at it, and would much rather reset to his high six than gamble my position on a fleeting snap shot.

The Solution: The displacement roll converts your angle of movement 60-120 degrees left or right while storing E as altitude. You can adjust your distance off the enemy by tightening or loosening the roll, tighter brings you closer, which is good for aggressively pursuing shots at some deflection. That said, tighter also increases the chance you muck it up or end up in an accidental turning match. Looser rolls tend to leave you higher and at a cleaner chase, but are much more of a reset to the high six than a gun pass. When in doubt, go looser.

How To Do It:

1) Begin your six o clock bounce. The spitfire starts a break turn that you cannot or will not match. You should make this call before the overshoot, and the earlier you make it the more E you will save.

2) Begin a climb; increase the angle of the climb to keep the turning spit visible in your side view. DO NOT TURN WITH THE SPIT. Regain an altitude advantage, but don't fall into stall speeds. 250 kph+ minimum, 300+ preferred. Your nose should be pointing fairly steeply into the sky at this point. Short climbs = closer to the enemy, more deflection later, long climbs = further away, more aligned on the six.

3) As the spit starts to flush out of your view, ROLL IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF THE SPITFIRE'S TURN. You should be able to track the spit through the top of your canopy through most, possibly all, of the roll. You are now higher than the spitfire, inverted, and with him in sight underneath you. Because you are at the top of a climb, adjusting your angle here is energy cheap - use the roll rate to point you where you want to go, and small stick moves to adjust. His turn is still very expensive, because he is breaking hard and horizontal. From here you can:

4a) Decide to drop inside his turn with a steep dive. If he is still turning, you are already pointed across his probable turn, and just need to pull back on the stick to push your plane down into a lead pursuit solution. Requires a touch of E to avoid a stall, and you will have to adjust your roll for a deflection shot. This is the most aggressive answer, but you are often aided by the fact that many spit pilots will lose you in the roll or lighten their stick pressure this far in to the turn, knowing you could not have turned with them for a full 90 degrees.

4b) Roll out to his high six. You can follow him all the way until he stops turning by moderating the rate of your roll. Chances are you'll have the energy advantage, and can afford to climb longer than he can afford to break turn. Finish a roll to right side up and level as he stops turning, and you'll find yourself at his high six. A solid move that effectively resets the game...but now he has even less energy thanks to that break turn, and has fewer options when you come in for the next attack.

4c) Respond to his vertical move. He may split S, dive, or try to Immelman in to you. The good ones will try to pull you into a dive, then use their turn radius to out - Immelman you. If you roll out on top and add a slight spiral climb to keep him in sight, none of these will matter. You came in high E, and he is burning his in vertical moves while you stored most of yours in the climb. If he goes low, you can easily shadow him from on high and pounce at will. If he tries to do a vertical reversal in to you, he will end up flopping long before you do unless you give in to the temptation to go head to head. Don't. You'll be higher, and half way through turning on to him again just when he runs out of Schlitz.

5) Repeat as needed. He'll break too early, or burn too much E to sustain a turn, or end up a few feet off the waves with no options, and then you kill him. Every time this process plays out, your relative energy advantage grows, and you can begin getting more and more aggressive in your moves as he runs out of options. At the end of the day, your gunnery still needs to put him away, but the consistent maneuver fight will leave you advantaged.

[GloriousRuse]

The High Yo-Yo

The Problem: I am advantaged, but no matter what I do, I cannot get a firing solution when the spit turns hard. I need to get shots on, and frankly, it would be better if that happened before his friends arrive or we end up on the deck. I need a way to turn inside of his break that won't leave me flopping like a fish.

The Solution: The High Yo-Yo uses a short zoom climb to temporarily cut your turning radius and store E as altitude, and then pushes you out straight across your new lead pursuit solution in a dive. You need to time it right and shoot well, but it will bring you around inside a horizontal or diving break turn for the shot. It can result in a risky separation after the deflection shot, so some judgement is required.

How to Do It:

1. Start a short zoom climb as the spit starts turning, and maintain gentle lag pursuit during the climb. Its ok if you have to look out a side window, but try to keep him even or better with the wingline.

2. Start rolling in to the turn of the spit once you gain altitude advantage, and gently pull your nose around as you roll. Once you are 90 degrees into the roll, you should look like you are in a hard lead pursuit turn with the target. The fact that you have zoomed up has given you a smaller comparative turn circle at the price of bringing you out of plane and slowing you down.

3. Apply rudder and stick to drop your nose downwards and in to the turn. You are now in a turning dive and gaining your energy back from the altitude. You should be lined up in a favorable lead pursuit as you dive, possibly even getting a straight dive across his turn if you judged it very well. Chances are you won't, and you'll need to cash some E for the shot, but the point is you can get the shot despite the turning differences.

4. GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!

5. After your pass, you will probably have blown a chunk of E for the firing solution and you are both heading away from each other at 90-180 degrees of separation (unless he obligingly straightens out in front of you). This is judgement call time, but rarely would it be a bad idea to regain altitude right now. You can always convert your climb to another Yo-Yo, displacement roll, Immelman, spiral climb, or - should you have maybe ended up in a turning fight - a disengagement. If you don't have the E left to climb...you did it wrong, and its time to leave the fight.

[3./JG51_Heiden]

High Yo Yo is the best counter to a Spitfire or Hurricane breaking hard left or right in the horizontal. I use this maneuver all the time with excellent results. It suits the 109 quite well.

[ATAG_Lolsav]

I hesitate to post in here, since would perhaps be better to leave the thread clean. But i decided to risk and input some of my own observations and experience in the 109.

I will talk about what i call the "Eternal mistake".

How many times have 109´s pilots went vertical, look back and they see the enemy getting a solution on them? And on top of that the 109 pilot doesnt try to offset the enemy aim. We can see tons of videos showing this behaviour, wich i call the "Eternal mistake".

Ok, the enemy is zooming up on you and you are almost out of Energy to be able to get away, but still, in a stubborn way, the 109 keeps trying to zoom up. The result is predictable.

So i urge 109s pilots to ask themselves what are they doing wrong. Wouldnt be better to avoid to spend all E exposing themselves to that situation? Before running out of E, and the enemy getting a good firing solution, why not to roll out to one of the sides, preferably the side they are climbing into (right or left), and extend away again. It seems so simple, but yet effective. It seems so simple and obvious, but yet i keep seeing this mistake all the time (me included). Lets provide better dogfights by avoiding the "Eternal mistake", shall we :)

[Otyg]

Sorry to pollute this awesome thread, But! if someone had the time to do videos for every movement that would be the icing on the cake..

Good thread guys!

[ATAG_Dave]

Sorry to pollute this awesome thread, But! if someone had the time to do videos for every movement that would be the icing on the cake..

Good thread guys!

From ROF lag displacement roll


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guVMVY2C6mM

[GloriousRuse]

The Offensive Synthesis: Yo-Yos and Rolls

So, now we have two very basic offensive maneuvers. So, how do you put them together to actually kill things?

Well, we'll assume that you begin this portion of the fight advantaged. If your beginning a fight at equivalency, we'll talk that later. If you're trying to attack disadvantaged before gaining position back, you should probably consider whether its really the dogfight that is getting you dead.

The moves come in a series of aggression:

Least Aggressive: Loose Displacement Roll
Medium: Tight Displacement Roll
Most Aggressive: High Yo-Yo

Generally speaking, you want to start with less aggressive responses. This sounds counter-intuitive, given the focus on aggression often emphasized in fighter tactics, but you have to remember that your prime directive in this fight is not to let go of the advantage. So long as you have the advantage, you cannot lose the 1 on 1 fight.

Early in the fight, if the enemy sees your bounce, he is at his least disadvantaged before his first move (assuming you are competently executing these moves.) He still has the potential to break hard, to sideslip, to execute a vertical reversal, and generally cause mayhem. Once he breaks, dives, or zoom climbs he sets his energy state to worse off than before. So long as you retain the advantage, his next move has less possibility to dodge, and more importantly, less energy to convert back to the offense. A loose roll as a response to his first move will comfortably put you in position on his extended six after any defensive move (except a rolling scissors) - whereas aggressive moves will generate the most difficult shots at this point.

In addition, a loose roll lets you track him through the first move and see if he likes to play tricks like reversing his break after you zoom, or straightening out. In either case you are uncommitted in the loose roll, and can convert the roll to a yo yo by simply not completing the roll if he straightens out or revers his turn. Finally, it conserves the most energy if he decides to go vertical.

After his first move or two, he will have far less E to handle the situation - or he'll have dived for new energy and be comfortably below you, increasing your advantage if you wait a few seconds. At this point the odds that you'll be foxed or out-maneuvered when you try a tight roll are much lower, and the resultant angle off shots will be more favorable than if he had E to blow in a break. The tight rolls will still give you some reaction time, as well as some time to set up better shots, while bringing you closer and closer to guns range.

Decisions to use a Yo Yo comes in four basic cases: 1. You've bled his E out with rolls while keeping yours, and can now comfortably Yo-yo without fear that he'll six you on the separation. 2. He has reversed in to your roll and given you a free lead pursuit angle. 3. He broke way too early. 4. His friends are coming and you need to do this right now. In all of those cases, the Yo-Yo is essentially an attempt to cash in your advantage for a clean shot, either because you're sure you can regain the advantage based on E, or because you are willing to gamble your position. As imagined, this is something you would rather not do until you are sure you getting the best pay off for the investment. Sacrificing position early for a deflection shot rarely makes a lot of sense against an energy rich opponent who can make the pass very difficult, and use the separation to try to turn the tables. I personally would not reccommend Yo Yo ing until late in the fight or presented a golden opportunity by enemy error.

[Vadr]

Good Stuff GR <gruss>

[GloriousRuse]

The Max Rate Split S

The Problem: There are tracers going past you right frickin now, and presumably there's a high E spit in guns range behind you.

The Solution: A max rate split S will give you a screaming exit that is hard to pull guns on and buy the space for either a flat, diving, or climbing extension depending on the E balance.

How to:

1. Immediately start to roll and dive. Do not wait to complete the roll before diving. This will create both a vertical issue for your opponent (you slip under his nose and he risks carburettor cut out as he lowers it) and a horizontal one as he is forced to choose between trying to match your roll (he can't in a spit), ruddering over (it'll make shooting hard and increases your lateral separation), or break turning for guns which will leave him out of position as you complete the roll. Also, the combination helps disguise the split S. A half roll on its own is a dead give away.

2. While still diving, slam the stick over into a max rate roll until you are inverted. It must be done as fast as you can rotate the 109 in order to defeat the spitfire's slower roll rate.

3. Pull out as hard as you can without stalling. This is usually where most people muck it up. This is the point where the spit has traveled farther before inversion do his lower roll rate, and his high speed means he cannot complete the 'C" as tightly as you, creating separation. If you try to gently "C" his superior turning radius will bring him out on your six despite the separation you earned via rolling.

4. He should flush out outside of guns ranges on your six either slow and slightly above you or on plane/just under you but with a slight speed advantage. It will be a marked less advantage than he started with because he needs to blow E to hold the position through the "C".

5. Win the foot race. You need to use the space earned to accelerate to 400 kph+ or (300 kph + and outclimbing), keeping in mind that a spit will accelerate faster in that speed band. This is the WEP, close rads, dive if needed point. You are now out of effective guns range and can use your top speed advantage to escape...but the fight isn't over. He is still a threat, he's just not gunning your brains out at the moment.

[hnbdgr]

I like this thread, lots of useful info here GR, thanks for that.

I would add perhaps another scenario and that is the spit breaks off into an immelman or high yoyo or otherwise tries to change his E into altitude. If he does that he managed to push you down while retaining a better position and you can't make a successful comeback without extending and climbing. If his aim was to lower your "threat rating" because say there's another 109 to deal with then he has succeeded as you will be out of the fight for another 1-3 minutes depending on how much energy you blew and altitude you lost in that split S.

[GloriousRuse]

HNBDRG: True, but the split S isn't for "oh, he's back there a ways, what should I do next" its for "he's RIGHT THERE trying to hammer the shiite out of me." Basically its a guns defense that opens up the space. If you're in a position where you need it, you are already losing. Its just a question of whether you'll live through it with a chance to reverse or if you'll be streaming water vapor next.

[ATAG_Endless]

If you find yourself on the defensive and extending away and are gaining sepperation once the spit or hurrie is at about 600 to 700 metres a way start a shallow reversal not a complete inverted reversal this is important

Once you start the reversal maintain your energy as you will need it to gain the advantage again
Maintain visual with the enemy and start a shallow dive toward the enemy so you will eventually pass underneath the enemy but not to close so he can get a snap shot

The most likely case is he will roll inverted to try and engage your 6 o'clock as soon as he goes inverted go vertical and start climbing use most of your energy to zoom up watch your enemy as he would have just tried to follow you up . This is when you have the advantage again and can now satrt your standard attacks again

if you executed the zoom properly you will find yourself in close proximity to your enemy but going opposite directions ( YOU CLIMBING AND HIM DIVING ) and this just made him make a huge mistake buy him bleeding all of his energy by trying to reverse and follow in a short space most likely pushing his airframe to the limits trying to follow

[hnbdgr]

HNBDRG: True, but the split S isn't for "oh, he's back there a ways, what should I do next" its for "he's RIGHT THERE trying to hammer the shiite out of me." Basically its a guns defense that opens up the space. If you're in a position where you need it, you are already losing. Its just a question of whether you'll live through it with a chance to reverse or if you'll be streaming water vapor next.

You are right, I forgot about the big picture :salute:

[GloriousRuse]

The Diving Extension

The Problem: There is an E favorable spit coming up your six, but outside of guns range. You don't have the angles or space to reverse, don't have the E to evade, and don't want to get all twisted up turn-fight fancy pants pilot stuff anyhow.

The Solution: The diving extension will neatly pull you out of range long enough for your speed advantage to build up until the spit can no longer close. As a teamwork bonus, it will pull the enemy away from wherever he just told his friends you are and towards where your friends are. Anyone who wants to sweep your six has a clean straight shot , as opposed to cursing your name and hoping you die as you burn everyone's energy because you're too stupid to realize that not only won't turning save you, its screwing your friends as well.

How To:

1) Assess the rate of closure. When in doubt, they are closing faster than you think. Then decide on a shallow, steep, or power dive - dive harder when they are closing faster.

2a) A shallow dive will give you a slight speed boost, but the spit can dive with it for an equivalent boost. This won't reset you to Co-E automatically the way other dives might, but if your just shy of equal, it'll make the foot race even. Plus, you retain altitude, which is good.

2b) A steep dive can be matched by a spit, but the aerodynamics involved mean that both sides are Co-E after an acceleration period. Basically, at this point both sides are the same speed and continuing to dive is throwing away altitude that won't convert to energy. Which can be a good thing, because you can regain altitude faster than a spit.

2c) Power dive. Point down. Don't stop until your plane is shuddering and groaning. The spit cannot match this dive, and you will gain a speed advantage regardless of what the initial energy state is. You need 2-3km o make it work. The down side is that most spit pilots will break out of thier dive earlier than you, meaning you'll flush out at an altitude disadvantage.

3) Get back in the band of excellence. If you are below 2km or above 6km, the spit will eventually catch back up. This is a huge error many make, diving to the deck, riding out feeling awesome and then watching in horror as three minutes later the spit starts creeping inwards again. Don't stay outside the band of excellence. As soon as you have both bled off the excessive speeds and down close to normal max speeds (sub 500kph), start your gentle climb back in to the band.

BUT HE'S ABOVE ME STILL! If that is the case, angle your climb to create lateral separation, don't go below 320 KPH. You want his next dive to the least efficient it can be, and are trying to decrease his angle of dive in order to make him waste altitude at an inferior rate of E conversion. You may need extend again in a gentler state than the power dive that probably caused this situation.

4) Start winning the flat race. Rads down, WEP on.

5a) Rope a Dope!

5b) Call a friend to come shoot the guy who is cruising behind you in a straight line.

5c) Just keep running. You know how everyone is always whining because a good spit driver can keep three or four pilots occupied for five minutes by turning and pretending to be Maverick before he dies? A mediocre 109 driver can keep infinite spitfires occupied for as long as the fuel lasts by simply driving straight. The fact that it doesn't look sexy doesn't mean it won't keep you safe for ..roughly..well, they'll run out of interest or blow a rad eventually.

[II/JG77_RC]

The Diving Extension

The Problem: There is an E favorable spit coming up your six, but outside of guns range. You don't have the angles or space to reverse, don't have the E to evade, and don't want to get all twisted up turn-fight fancy pants pilot stuff anyhow.

The Solution: The diving extension will neatly pull you out of range long enough for your speed advantage to build up until the spit can no longer close. As a teamwork bonus, it will pull the enemy away from wherever he just told his friends you are and towards where your friends are. Anyone who wants to sweep your six has a clean straight shot , as opposed to cursing your name and hoping you die as you burn everyone's energy because you're too stupid to realize that not only won't turning save you, its screwing your friends as well.



YES ! ohh Lordy. GR. Testify !

http://pragmaticobotsunite.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2397693_o3.gif

:ilike:

Killer Thread Here !

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

pretty much covers them and more...didnt see the luftbery listed

[Dutch]

In my experience, the best way to avoid a 109, turning the advice on it's head of course, is to play Skyrim.

Yup. That's the best avoidance tactic. Especially when closet neo-Nazis are in charge of the FMs. Go play Rome III, Total Orgy. With the new ''Team Flobular' wobbly breast mod'' of course. If you don't like it, you must be completely insane or something!!

Or not.

Maybe.

'Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun....'

[ATAG_Bliss]

In my experience, the best way to avoid a 109, turning the advice on it's head of course, is to play Skyrim.

Yup. That's the best avoidance tactic. Especially when closet neo-Nazis are in charge of the FMs. Go play Rome III, Total Orgy. With the new ''Team Flobular' wobbly breast mod'' of course. If you don't like it, you must be completely insane or something!!

Or not.

Maybe.

'Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun....'

You are out of line for the last time. If you can make better FMs, then by all means go make them and back them up with real test data. If not, feel free to play the version of the game you paid for (vanilla) and stop using the free mod that you are complaining about. Your comments are rude, disrespectful, and very insulting. If that's the only thing you know how to do, then I personally feel very sorry for you. You won't be coming back this time.

[GloriousRuse]

The Rope A Dope

The Problem: Ok, so, he's back there in that spit chasing you all over creation. Not catching you mind, just chasing you. Its a mexican stand off. He can't catch you, and you can't turn back on your mission without him trying to cut your circle. It'd sure be nice to have a chance to kill him, or at least change out of this long six pursuit situation.

The Solution: if there is a friend near by, have him kill the bastard. if there's not, the rope-a-dope will end with you dropping in via hammerhead somewhere between the former pursuers wingline and six depending on the angle, effectively reversing the advantage in the fight. Even if you screw it up, you'll probably end up with an altitude advantage and a neutral situation. Unless you screw it up real bad or he has a higher friend, in which case you'll die hanging on your prop. But your not going to because here is how to do it:

How To Do It:

1) Extend at the level, or even a dive, until you are nearly co-E, maybe slightly disadvantaged.

2) Make sure he is sucked in to following your six.

3) Begin a gentle climb, watch him follow you. keep climbing till your somewhere in the 350 range.

4) Steep your straight climb until your at 300 (unless he is in guns range, in which case go straight to 5)

5) Start a spiral climb inside his attack. You climb faster to the left, but the spit has to counteract more torque if you climb right, so it neutralizes mostly. If you have misjudged the distances or E, now is a great time to slam the WEP.

6) Tighten and steepen the climb significantly as he gets into firing solution range. You'll notice a lot of tracers going by if you let him get close, but he will have a near impossible time landing anything given you'll both be hovering at 250 kph or less, and he is trying to point nearly straight up. In a perfect world, you'd like to be pointing your lower wing at his cockpit now, but not a huge issue if your not.

7) Watch for his flop.

7a) He flops it completely. Hammerhead onto his six if you have the airspeed.

7b) He realizes hes out of E and straightens up. If he does this at or in front of your wingline, drop in and murder him. If its behind your wingline, you can only drop in if you are sitting at 250+...don;t try a 3/4 roll with break turn if you already have stall contrails...But you can use this opportunity to either replenish your E or gain the angle on him. From there you can decide if you want to disengage (you'll be comfortably a few hundred meters above him even if you flatten out), try to get some angles (you can regain E just by leveling out a sustained turn while he flies straight, just don't try to nose up any more), or reset for a clean fight where you have the altitude advantage (start a turn for a two circle, very gently, re-building e and building lateral separation. If he hauls back to get around on you using that magic spitty Energy retention, you'll still be out of range, and you'll close the head to head over him, usually with him trying to climb hard for a shot again - which you naturally defeat by adding a few more angles upwards, starting your reversal while he is going for the impossible shot)

[KansasCS]

Sorry for bumping this thread, but not sorry.
Flying red all the time and wanting to hone my skills in the 109, this thread is really helpful. Could it perchance, be augmented with a paragraph or two about engine management? I can barely get the most out of a 109 and spits always seem to keep up with me in shallow climbs(the part where the 109 should come out on top).


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[ATAG_Dave]

Sorry for bumping this thread, but not sorry.
Flying red all the time and wanting to hone my skills in the 109, this thread is really helpful. Could it perchance, be augmented with a paragraph or two about engine management? I can barely get the most out of a 109 and spits always seem to keep up with me in shallow climbs(the part where the 109 should come out on top).


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

I know only a tiny bit about 109s but this thread here might help you http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5823

As for the shallow climb thing - Spits are very good in shallow climbs, I think the 109 can out climb them better in a steeper angle of climb??

[sw1ive]

High Yo Yo is the best counter to a Spitfire or Hurricane breaking hard left or right in the horizontal. I use this maneuver all the time with excellent results. It suits the 109 quite well.


Me too... +1 +1 +1

[KansasCS]

Still, although I know the strengths and weaknesses of the 109 and try to implement them, I always fail to get good shots on target. By the time I dive down to his 6 after my yoyo, his aspect is already 90degrees again. If he's aggressive enough, a head on situation is possible too(my favored move to make 109s look stupid). Only my cannons shake the cockpit so badly that head on shots aren't as accurate.


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[Vlerkies]

Always stay faster and higher (the 2 compliment eachother) and you will have the advantag when you want to use it, avoid the suction from the black hole that is the turn fight :D

A trusty favorite, from 1:20-2:00, often they loose sight of you when you climb and just keep turning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xElG3C2KCqY

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

If you have a Spitfire with high E close behind and you are close to the deck you don't have the option of the Split S, you don't have the space to extend.

In that case, the only real solution is a rolling scissors whereby you use the 109's superior low speed rollrate to force the Spit to overshoot.

Basically this means the 109 pilot rolls into a turn, at the same time chopping his throttle... and then, just as quickly, rolls back the other way immediately he sees the Spit start to follow. It is best to alternate the rolls slightly upwards, and then slightly downwards, to avoid passing directly in front of the Spits guns.

The 109 pilot continues this until either the Spit overshoots, or both aircraft are very close to stall speed.

The 109 handles very well in low speed situations, and can continue to roll right up to stall... if it stalls and spins, it can recover with lightning speed. On the other hand the Spit will react to a roll at a point close to the stall with a spin... if you are on the deck this can mean the Spit goes into the water or the ground before it has a chance to recover. If the Spit continues the attempt to roll with you, he will spin first, or you will spin simultaneously, with the 109 recovering first.

Once the Spit overshoots or spins, then the 109 can either go offensive, or alternately, use its generally better acceleration and direction change to exit in exactly the opposite direction to where the Spit is pointing... by the time it either recovers or turns 360 degrees, the 109 will have a good head start.

This tactic works best with either the 109E-1 or the 109E-4B, the E-4N is a little bit heavier and more clumsy and its stall and spin is a little sooner and slower to recover.

Edit:

Against a Hurricane pilot who knows how to use his rudder to accelerate rolls, the rolling scissors works less well. The Hurricane's huge high lift wing stalls very benignly, the Hurricane can hang in the air like a parachute, and almost outwait the 109 in the low speed roll game... watch him stall first, then put his nose down and go in pursuit. So beware of taking a Hurricane for granted in a low speed fight. ;)

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Here's another alternative when caught low. This works at altitudes approx. 1000 meters and lower and when the enemy is close behind.

The 109 starts into a descending continuous 360 degree roll... heading for the ground at approx. 30 degree angle, he rolls into a course which will take him into the ground.

He does not turn, does not pull any G's with his elevator, these are aileron turns only... enough to keep his aircraft out of the enemy's gunsight.

He then reverses the roll, and then reverses again, continuing to maintain a general course which will take him into the ground... at the same time, he makes the angle at which he aims at the ground just a little shallower... say 20 degrees.

The Spitfire or Hurricane, if it wants to achieve a gun solution will need to duplicate the roll pattern.

The series of rolls needs to be continuous, you need to keep the Spit/Hurri pilot focused on following, naturally they will be focused on the 109, not the ground. Whereas the 109 pilot is focused on the ground, his relation to it, and exactly what he needs to do to avoid crashing.

Finally as the ground comes up, the 109 pilot should be wings vertical, aiming at the ground... the Spit/Hurri should be on its tail in the same position.

Now timing is the essence....

The 109 pilot reverses once again, as fast as he can, in one continuous roll, inverting, and then to wings level.... JUST IN TIME to avoid crashing, the roll to to level allowing him to pull out just in time.

BUT, because the Spit/Hurri rolls more slowly, they will still be inverted by the time it comes for them to recover and they will be unable to do so, and will go in.

The Spit/Hurri pilot must have the experience to recognize what is happening to avoid this... and roll back to level before its too late... otherwise they will be a smoking hole or a splash on the sea.

And if they do refuse to follow the 109's last maneuver, and instead, roll back to level, they will lose their offensive position... thus the 109 makes its escape.

It's important to keep the speed to approx. 320 kmh, that is the 109's best roll speed... too much faster and the 109's advantage is diminished. This may mean the 109 needs to roll off the throttle.

[ATAG_Lewis]

You're getting pearls here fellas....PEARLS I TELL YA!!

[KansasCS]

Indeed! But like with all aerial combat tactics, it takes a minute to learn and a lifetime to perfect.
For instance watching the airspeed remain at 320km/h... Not an easy task in the heat of battle and in a dive, when you're first instinct is to run.
I used to be in the spits situation constantly. I would just hover over him, anticipate where he will roll out and turn towards that direction. If need be, I'd throttle back enough to stay behind him too(concerning the sciccors). I'd always get enough shots to vent him.
All but the best 109 pilots survive a low level spit zoom untouched. At least my victims.
Also, putting the spits rudder to good use (albeit bleeding more energy) will increase the roll rate too. The 109 will put a bit more distance between you in the rolling, but when we're talking about 100-300m, his rads are going to be toast either way.
In any case, I'm looking forward to flying the 109 more often! I really need a wingman though, because tactics can be as fancy as they want, going up against multiple bandits is always a secure way to get whipped.


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[ATAG_NakedSquirrel]

Always stay faster and higher (the 2 compliment eachother) and you will have the advantag when you want to use it, avoid the suction from the black hole that is the turn fight :D

A trusty favorite, from 1:20-2:00, often they loose sight of you when you climb and just keep turning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xElG3C2KCqY

Are you listening to Enya while you fly? That would make me want to kill too!

roflmao

[Vlerkies]

Are you listening to Enya while you fly? That would make me want to kill too!

roflmao

One man's meat is another man's poison.