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II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-14-2014, 14:32
It looks like any reviews that quote the threat by the devs to close down the game if the metacritic scores aren't improved are being deleted as fast as they're posted. I've had to re-post mine four times now. All the others that were there are gone.

Looks like metacritic is corrupt to the core. Somebody there been bunged a brown envelope by Williams...?

ATAG_Colander
Oct-14-2014, 14:40
Interesting read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacritic

And here:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB119024844874433247

Archie
Oct-14-2014, 14:41
High drama in simland today!

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-14-2014, 14:44
Interesting read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacritic

And here:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB119024844874433247

Ah! That explains perfectly why they're so concerned about the score!

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-14-2014, 14:47
Here you go, I now have this message on my metacritic page:

"You may no longer submit a review due to the content of your previous comments or reviews."

All I did was post the quote from the devs where they threaten to pull the game if the scores aren't improved. Remarkable chicanery. So we now know metacritic scores aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Archie
Oct-14-2014, 14:48
From that second link, interesting...

''Some game companies now tie bonuses for their developers to game scores on such sites, while the stocks of game publishers can fall when a new title gets a disappointing score. ''

heinkill
Oct-14-2014, 14:56
I doubt that money has changed hands with Metacritic. They probably have their own policy regarding potentially libelous postings...more likely to be lawyers than corruption.

What a disaster of a dev team... I wonder how much of it is the fact that (in my long international business experience) Russians sometimes/often don't get that they way they do business is not the way everyone does?

I just cringe at the thought of how successfully and completely they've screwed up what until a month ago was sailing along as a fantastic example of how to run beta access...

- frequent updates and communication (even allowing for their heavy handed idea of forum moderation)
- realistic ambitions enabling project to meet timelines
- a working product with a strong and supportive beta access community

Now its a split community which the devs themselves are doing all they can to divide into a fake categorisation of either fanbois and haters.

They have in the past labelled me a 'hater' and put me on their not-so-secret list of 'known haters' but despite that, I like the game and am happy to say so. I refuse to be labelled a hater just because I am not always blindly praising their games. But they have a stupid 'you are either 100pc with us, or you are against us' attitude, and it leads them to do dumb dumb dumb things like this...

http://m.imgur.com/BfMs7kQ

Chuck_Owl
Oct-14-2014, 15:00
I've done the guides for all their aircraft, and STILL I get labelled as a hater too.

Go figure.


I doubt that money has changed hands with Metacritic. They probably have their own policy regarding potentially libelous postings...more likely to be lawyers than corruption.

What a disaster of a dev team... I wonder how much of it is the fact that (in my long international business experience) Russians sometimes/often don't get that they way they do business is not the way everyone does?

I just cringe at the thought of how successfully and completely they've screwed up what until a month ago was sailing along as a fantastic example of how to run beta access...

- frequent updates and communication (even allowing for their heavy handed idea of forum moderation)
- realistic ambitions enabling project to meet timelines
- a working product with a strong and supportive beta access community

Now its a split community which the devs themselves are doing all they can to divide into a fake categorisation of either fanbois and haters.

They have in the past labelled me a 'hater' and put me on their not-so-secret list of 'known haters' but despite that, I like the game and am happy to say so. I refuse to be labelled a hater just because I am not always blindly praising their games. But they have a stupid 'you are either 100pc with us, or you are against us' attitude, and it leads them to do dumb dumb dumb things like this...

http://m.imgur.com/BfMs7kQ

heinkill
Oct-14-2014, 15:04
Just read this...it is part of an adjudication process.

Originally Posted By: Speyer
Apparently all reviews that show Zaks post are being deleted, and the users banned...


The reviews are still calculated but they are hidden because they are reported as abuse. They will be reviewed and either left in or taken out later. I have not heard anything about people being banned over them yet though.

Read more: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4022344/5#ixzz3G9Cq3exY

Archie
Oct-14-2014, 15:24
How can posting a screenshot from a dev been considered abuse?
I agree with you Heinkill, I have never seen a game and a forum turn round so rapidly, and not in a good way.

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-14-2014, 15:25
http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr356/Langnasen7/metacriticfraud01_zpsc762de25.jpg (http://s499.photobucket.com/user/Langnasen7/media/metacriticfraud01_zpsc762de25.jpg.html)

Chuck_Owl
Oct-14-2014, 15:30
A 0/10 post of agressive, subjective and nonfactual absolute nonsense like you put on this website earlier is not what I'd call a proper "Review", sorry.

You know, intellectual integrity comes at a certain price.

ATAG_Colander
Oct-14-2014, 15:35
Just a fair warning...
Although we try to allow free speech as much as possible, please don't use this forum as a place to attack other forums and/or persons.

As always, opinions and information are welcome just don't take it to the next level :D

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-14-2014, 15:52
A 0/10 post of agressive, subjective and nonfactual absolute nonsense like you put on this website earlier is not what I'd call a proper "Review", sorry.

You know, intellectual integrity comes at a certain price.

Oi, I gave it a 1. My intellectual integrity is sound, it got a 1 for being pretty. :D

Tomten
Oct-14-2014, 16:04
Developers have lost it.

Zak posted this before Jason went on damage control mode.

http://i.imgur.com/BfMs7kQ.png

Edit: Saw it was posted above...

Depressing, so damn depressing, in the future I will remember to just burn my money.

LuseKofte
Oct-14-2014, 16:09
They really should hire a public relation guy, they are really ruining their own game. This bring me back to old banana forum and cod release .

Leifr
Oct-14-2014, 16:32
This has already spiraled beyond Metacritic and the Stalingrad forums. :) It's running HOT on /r/gaming and over on SimHQ.
My original thread posted this evening detailing the extremities of positive/negative reviews was removed within the hour, alongside another four threads.

Bewolf
Oct-14-2014, 16:34
They really should hire a public relation guy, they are really ruining their own game. This bring me back to old banana forum and cod release .

Pretty much this. I was/am critical, but on the fence, wanting to see how it develops before considering purchase.

But what happend today put me off on a personal level to such a degree... I simply can't get myself around to support people displaying such attidudes.

The thing is...there were how many posters giving the game 0 points? 10? 15? Had they waited a bit longer the positive ones would have come in and made those few 0s not have much of impact. Most critics had problems with some descisions made by the devs, but still believed the game to have a solid core, really to be made shine in the future. But now?

BoS, at least for me, fails through atrocious developer/consumer relations. Such display of insecureness in one's own product does not bode well at all. So many desperate costumers who go out and give 10s all over the place just to get BoS going and give "payback" to the haters does not make a healthy impression, either. I'd not even want to be part of such a black/white community now. And the really sad part is, now that it happend, it happend, and this issue will remain in people's heads for the time to come and majorly define how people will view the released product.

Seriously folks, we all want new Sims, the more the merrier, there can't be enough alternatives. And so far which one to chose was mostly just a matter of personal taste, even taking the debates over CloD back then into account. But the obsession with Sims as shown here today, by all sides involved, is just going waaaaaaay overboard. Maybe, LuseKofte, taking a break and looking for another hobby for the time being is not at all a bad idea.

Chuck_Owl
Oct-14-2014, 16:35
Leifr, you're alive!

I hope you haven't got yourself a ticket to BanVille...

Leifr
Oct-14-2014, 16:40
I'm still there. :salute:

Logan
Oct-14-2014, 16:44
Wow, I missed a lot today. Its sad I guess. Iv'e said before it could be a great middle of the road game, not arcade but not a study sim. Too bad its going this way.

Mysticpuma
Oct-14-2014, 16:52
You know, nothing changes no-matter where you are in flight sim forums...I remember the right and wrong brigade all chipping in with this thread on the Banana Forums. Thing is, if you use incorrect terminology it gives a chink in the armour for everyone to stick a blade in.

As you'll see from this example:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=473428#post473428

So, no matter what those think against it, there will always be those who think for it. Ultimately whatever a player decides, if they play with the software and they are happy, that's great, and if they think it's rubbish, that's THEIR opinion. It's down to the developers to decide whether community input on the direction they are taking is better for them to utilise or ignore. Time will tell :)

Archie
Oct-14-2014, 16:57
Life was much simpler before the internet. Buy game, put it in drive, play game. No hysteria at all. I'm not a huge fan of the flight sim 'community' to be honest. Very self destructive.

LizLemon
Oct-14-2014, 17:04
I always figured that BoS would have some Banana forum style eruption of discontent, but I never expected it to happen so soon.

First the whole SP unlocks issue, and now this metacritic deal. They are doing a very good job of making molehills into mountains. If they dealt with things a bit more reasonably then neither of those two things would be an issue.

1lokos
Oct-14-2014, 17:04
Developers have lost it.

Zak posted this before Jason went on damage control mode.

http://i.imgur.com/BfMs7kQ.png



On Russian forum was held in the original text:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2022-otzyvy-polzovatelej

And some "unlock" criticism post kept.

Tvrdi
Oct-14-2014, 17:17
On Russian forum was held in the original text:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2022-otzyvy-polzovatelej

And some "unlock" criticism post kept.

Because the beancounter cant speak russian.....

ATAG_Colander
Oct-14-2014, 17:39
Life was much simpler before the internet. Buy game, put it in drive, play game. No hysteria at all. I'm not a huge fan of the flight sim 'community' to be honest. Very self destructive.

But there was no multiplayer unless you had a "lan party" :(

ATAG_Lolsav
Oct-14-2014, 17:44
But there was no multiplayer unless you had a "lan party" :(

I second this. Also, where else can you fill another human with virtual bullets, if there wasnt internet? World would be a more dangerous place! (errr scratch that last sentence :) )

gavagai
Oct-14-2014, 18:00
I only have this to say:

If they don't want bad reviews, then don't force stuff on customers that the customers have said they do not want. Customer service only succeeds when the business listens.

Injerin
Oct-14-2014, 18:02
But there was no multiplayer unless you had a "lan party" :(

Yep, loved those days..It was easy to find the hacker :)

Leifr
Oct-14-2014, 18:34
And it spreads (http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/10/il-2-sturmovik-devs-metacritic/).

Also, being accused of creating the screenshot on the /r/gaming thread over in Reddit. It's all a mega conspiracy! :recon:

Injerin
Oct-14-2014, 18:43
[QUOTE=Tomten;144900]Developers have lost it.

Zak posted this before Jason went on damage control mode.

http://i.imgur.com/BfMs7kQ.png

Edit: Saw it was posted above...



WOW... a 12 year old response. My question is why give two shits what people say on Meta Critic?

ATAG_Lolsav
Oct-14-2014, 18:46
And it spreads (http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/10/il-2-sturmovik-devs-metacritic/).

Also, being accused of creating the screenshot on the /r/gaming thread over in Reddit. It's all a mega conspiracy! :recon:

Jesus.. its a PR nightmare. More to see here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2j83ai/il2_devs_threaten_to_shut_down_game_unless/

Marmus
Oct-14-2014, 19:00
That is it. It is settled....I am 97.87646% positive that the author of the "Dilbert" comic strip series works at 777/1C.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Injerin
Oct-14-2014, 19:00
12451



I will no longer back a project for kickstarter or early access. Been burned to many times by guys like these. Don't get me wrong I payed for it, I'll play it for what it is.

:)

Mudcat
Oct-14-2014, 22:25
Yep, loved those days..It was easy to find the hacker :)

It was also a lot easier to smack the hacker upside the back of the head when you caught them :devilish: no need for "Internet Justice" back then.

ElGringo
Oct-14-2014, 22:28
And it spreads (http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/10/il-2-sturmovik-devs-metacritic/).

Also, being accused of creating the screenshot on the /r/gaming thread over in Reddit. It's all a mega conspiracy! :recon:

Well I already see it coming... This story going mainstream in game medias. Sim community portrayed as bullies, association with so-called "gamergate"... Smells bad.

I think the BoS team is well capable of using that trick if they feel too much threatened.

Dutch
Oct-14-2014, 22:46
They really should hire a public relation guy, they are really ruining their own game. This bring me back to old banana forum and cod release .

It's worse. Hard to believe, but it is.

SorcererDave
Oct-14-2014, 23:49
Am I literally the only one here who read that post and got a completely different message? Firstly - Metacritic matters. For those of you not well-versed in how the games industry works, the funding of a development team is quite often codified with multiple clauses, including more often than not a minimum metacritic score. I wish it wasn't this way because Metacritic quite frankly a terrible website with far too much influence, but that's simply the way things are. Bombing BoS's metacritic page with pithy little 0/10 reviews (I don't care how much you dislike certain aspects of the game, for all its flaws, nobody in good conscience could seriously give BoS a 0/10 without trying to push a silly little agenda of their own) is a bigger deal than you might think it is. That's why reviews like that get taken down and examined by the site, because sadly this kind of smear campaign is fairly common in the wider gaming community at large. It's not people giving their honest, measured opinions of the game, it's outraged fanboys venting their impotent frustration in a pathetic little attempt to "get back" at the developers. Seriously, this sort of thing is old hat and has been going on for years so don't even try to argue that your 0/10 review was your honest, academic opnion of the game as a product.

With all that aside however, reading Zak's post I don't see a threat. Maybe someone who's gotten unreasonably paranoid and worked up about this might see it as that, but that's not what I see. It's a simple statement of fact - if these metacritic scores truly do reflect the opinion of the community, there just isn't much point in them continuing development. I certainly wouldn't want to be busting my ass 6 days a week in a dev studio making a game for an audience that hates me and the product I'm trying to create. Lol, I'd probably throw in the towel and go work on a puzzle-platformer or something. Far more profitable, easier to make and generally doesn't find itself surrounded by a community of screaming fanatics and children. I'm not saying the developers aren't at any fault here whatsoever. That simply wouldn't be true, however that being said, this all boils down to one very depressing bottom-line:

When I came into the flight sim community I initially found it a refreshing change from elsewhere on the internet - everyone was very mature and polite (and in truth that can still very much be said of 95% of the folks here on ATAG - the CloD community seems for the most part to be a sole remaining bastion of sanity these days), and shared more than anything else a passionate love of historical aviation. However in recent weeks it's become blatantly obvious that under the surface it's really no different to any other childish, pathetic gaming clique on the internet. And that makes me really fucking sad.

I'll probably catch plenty of flak for this post but you know what - fine. If I have to be a lone voice of reason in a room full of drama-queens and headless chickens then that's just what I'll do.

Chuck_Owl
Oct-14-2014, 23:59
You're not gonna catch any flak from me, Dave. What you say makes perfect sense. I couldn't agree more with you.

0/10, 1/10... really? I mean... REALLY? If there's one thing that makes my blood boil, it's people who have absolutely no clue of what they're talking about and pretend they're speaking in the name of everyone.

I will do a (very lengthy) review and post it on metacritic eventually when I have time.

Roblex
Oct-15-2014, 01:53
Personally I think the public reaction to the 1C post is pure Daily Mail 'Flesh Eating spiders are invading Britain'.

Everyone is describing it is as BoS threatening to withdraw the game unless the players agree to pervert the Metacritic score. What he was actually saying was that because Metacritic is mostly filled with over-the-top hate-filled posts from people that have probably never even tried the game, BoS might end up sunk before it even goes live so if any players agree that the picture needs balancing out then they need to post some positive reviews. If they don't think Metacritic is unduly critical then leave it as it is and BoS will have to accept that they are wasting their time on something that nobody wants.

Of all the communities that should understand this viewpoint, this one should! It was not that long ago that we were actively trying to add glowing reviews of CLOD to Amazon etc to counteract all the stupidly bad reviews from people that had tried the original release on day one and were still posting bad reviews years later without even trying the TF version.

LuseKofte
Oct-15-2014, 02:16
Am I literally the only one here who read that post and got a completely different message? Firstly - Metacritic matters. For those of you not well-versed in how the games industry works, the funding of a development team is quite often codified with multiple clauses, including more often than not a minimum metacritic score. I wish it wasn't this way because Metacritic quite frankly a terrible website with far too much influence, but that's simply the way things are. Bombing BoS's metacritic page with pithy little 0/10 reviews (I don't care how much you dislike certain aspects of the game, for all its flaws, nobody in good conscience could seriously give BoS a 0/10 without trying to push a silly little agenda of their own) is a bigger deal than you might think it is. That's why reviews like that get taken down and examined by the site, because sadly this kind of smear campaign is fairly common in the wider gaming community at large. It's not people giving their honest, measured opinions of the game, it's outraged fanboys venting their impotent frustration in a pathetic little attempt to "get back" at the developers. Seriously, this sort of thing is old hat and has been going on for years so don't even try to argue that your 0/10 review was your honest, academic opnion of the game as a product.

With all that aside however, reading Zak's post I don't see a threat. Maybe someone who's gotten unreasonably paranoid and worked up about this might see it as that, but that's not what I see. It's a simple statement of fact - if these metacritic scores truly do reflect the opinion of the community, there just isn't much point in them continuing development. I certainly wouldn't want to be busting my ass 6 days a week in a dev studio making a game for an audience that hates me and the product I'm trying to create. Lol, I'd probably throw in the towel and go work on a puzzle-platformer or something. Far more profitable, easier to make and generally doesn't find itself surrounded by a community of screaming fanatics and children. I'm not saying the developers aren't at any fault here whatsoever. That simply wouldn't be true, however that being said, this all boils down to one very depressing bottom-line:

When I came into the flight sim community I initially found it a refreshing change from elsewhere on the internet - everyone was very mature and polite (and in truth that can still very much be said of 95% of the folks here on ATAG - the CloD community seems for the most part to be a sole remaining bastion of sanity these days), and shared more than anything else a passionate love of historical aviation. However in recent weeks it's become blatantly obvious that under the surface it's really no different to any other childish, pathetic gaming clique on the internet. And that makes me really fucking sad.

I'll probably catch plenty of flak for this post but you know what - fine. If I have to be a lone voice of reason in a room full of drama-queens and headless chickens then that's just what I'll do.

You are very correct, I honestly respect those stating the simple fact they do not like the sim.
But saying it is bad, is just wrong. It got issues , but what game havent. Good post

arglmauf
Oct-15-2014, 04:33
That's the magic of vague formulations. They don't have to threaten directly for it to have the desired effect.
Dave is correct and his interpretation is valid... so is the other side who can sense a certain vibe of "vote up or the game gets it". Just because Dave can see it as not threatening doesn't mean it can't have that effect. Now a good question would be if that message was deliberatly constructed this way or whether it's just poor PR handling on their part. We'll never find a proper answer to this. Only that in the current climate of the community, it was oil into fire really. The negative interpretation will prevail after the censoring and that XP SP implementation. You can blame the community, true but part of the blame has to fall on them for setting it up aswell.

That being said, the game should stand on its own merits and at least to me, it doesn't stand but rather belly flops all over not really knowing what it wants to be. My form of criticism is not to play it. Wish more would adopt this stance.

Hood
Oct-15-2014, 04:36
...it's just poor PR handling on their part.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11695-jasons-comments-today/

Hood

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-15-2014, 04:45
The irony is that if the game had been pitched for what it is in the first place, an arcade blaster, the metacritic page would have been full of arcaders praising its arcade virtues. No simmer would even have it on their simming radar. But 1C/777 made the fundamental mistake of calling it a sim, pitching it at simmers and then dropping them off a cliff. Thus they have reaped what they have sowed.

arglmauf
Oct-15-2014, 04:55
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11695-jasons-comments-today/

Hood

Could be the usual "Damage control dance":)

First, what I find more interesting is his stance on the "anger, rawness and sensitivity of the community". I think he's falling victim to a very famous trap: Taking your forums as a proper reflection of the whole community. The forum is the playground for the very vocal. Think the Battlefield Heroes devs made a very compelling study there that shows just that. That way, he allows the forums/blogs to poison his view of his own clientele. That in results leads to him being harsher to them in terms of handling. The spiral is in motion and it desires feeding.

Second, "We have tried to be very communicative about this product": Streaming stuff and posting dev screenshots is not being "communicative" about it really. For example, I have yet to see someone who wholly loves the XP grind idea with SP they currently have. Their intention was to get people to train proper handling before they go to multiplayer. Am I the only one who thinks "People dislike the forced SP but I want them to train before facing MP....Maaaybe... I should work on a different training method that isn't so forced but more compelling?". Yet, from what I heard from others, posting such stuff results in censorship, probably due to point 1 above.

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-15-2014, 05:10
Employing individuals with serious ego-issues as moderators was Williams first huge mistake, because when the god-awful arcade issues began surfacing with the game and purchasers made known their dis-pleasure, the first response they got was gross abuse, disrespect, provocation and injustice from those 'moderators'. Williams was and remains ignorant of a very old and wise axiom: keep your friends close and your enemies closer. His cocky arrogance and high-handed treatment of those who did nothing more than legitimately criticize parts of the game has largely lead to this shit-storm.

arglmauf
Oct-15-2014, 05:15
Employing individuals with serious ego-issues as moderators was Williams first huge mistake, because when the god-awful arcade issues began surfacing with the game and purchasers made known their dis-pleasure, the first response they got was gross abuse, disrespect, provocation and injustice from those 'moderators'. Williams was and remains ignorant of a very old and wise axiom: keep your friends close and your enemies closer. His cocky arrogance and high-handed treatment of those who did nothing more than legitimately criticize parts of the game has largely lead to this shit-storm.

You know, maybe you should refrain from posting such things. This was a whole opinion piece, I see no reference to any example that prove your point.
It doesn't contribute to the discussion one bit.

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-15-2014, 05:23
You know, maybe you should refrain from posting such things. This was a whole opinion piece, I see no reference to any example that prove your point.
It doesn't contribute to the discussion one bit.

It's an entirely legitimate point, it pertains to the way the game has angered a multitude of purchasers and shaped the way they've responded.

And I don't need to give boring examples, there are a host of purchasers who know exactly of what I speak.

RugbyGoth
Oct-15-2014, 05:51
Could be the usual "Damage control dance":)
I have yet to see someone who wholly loves the XP grind idea with SP they currently have.

In fact, according to the running poll by Jason (http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11694-campaign-system-unlocks/), 6.72% of people who answered (17/253 votes in total) are OK with the system the way it is. The total persons who have bought the game is around 14000, so we are far from a great representative but it gives an idea.

Flight sim community is a bit difficult to understand. Jason and his team are trying their best to make us a good flight sim. It's a great challenge because the probability of failling is great in this small world that is flight sim. Their only mistake is to try a new system (those unlocks) and, as their communication is not that good, everybody is screaming and arguing that they are a bunch of "whatever you put here" :doh:

We NEED a great flight sim, they are trying to make one. They do mistakes (according to certain persons, at least 17 people agree with them), all we have to do to is to say them that this is not what will make their game a great flight sim and they will (or at least should) change something accordingly to their business model.

Hood
Oct-15-2014, 06:00
It's an entirely legitimate point...


Well it's a point. Not a good, well thought out or legitimate point but it's a point.

I wonder who's next on the Siggi radar?

Hood

gavagai
Oct-15-2014, 06:18
Their only mistake is to try a new system (those unlocks) and, as their communication is not that good, everybody is screaming and arguing that they are a bunch of "whatever you put here" :doh:


Their communication is fine. The devs have interacted with the BOS community a lot, way more than they did for Rise of Flight. 777 basically said "we know better" whenever someone opined that unlocks don't belong in a flight sim.

I hope it works out for BoS. After reading about it, the metacritic scoring system seems illogical.

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-15-2014, 06:22
Well it's a point. Not a good, well thought out or legitimate point but it's a point.

Hood


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

SoW Reddog
Oct-15-2014, 06:42
So, apologies for my ignorance here, as a non BOS guy, but they got annoyed at poor reviews and basically just asked their fanboi's to write some good reviews to counter balance? And then everyone went apeshit?

Does anyone read Metacritic and expect reasoned well balanced reviews?

arglmauf
Oct-15-2014, 06:47
So, apologies for my ignorance here, as a non BOS guy, but they got annoyed at poor reviews and basically just asked their fanboi's to write some good reviews to counter balance? And then everyone went apeshit?

Does anyone read Metacritic and expect reasoned well balanced reviews?

I would say the problem is that the post they made about metacritic can be interpreted as "make sure the metacritic score goes up or we'll close shop in December and the game will be gone".
There is, as many have pointed out, the vagueness of the actual words and the above is just one possible interpretation.

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-15-2014, 07:16
Mark Doyle of metacritic tells me the game should have been marked as early release and, if it had, no reviews or scores would have been possible. He also says all reviews and scores made during the beta period will be removed (which means all of those to date).

DUI
Oct-15-2014, 07:25
Sounds reasonable to me.

Ow-Chi
Oct-15-2014, 07:42
Well I already see it coming... This story going mainstream in game medias. Sim community portrayed as bullies, association with so-called "gamergate"... Smells bad.
.

I have been watching this from the shadows, so to speak and to echo a sentiment that sums it up perfectly for me "I don't have a horse in this race". Took a peek at BoS and as soon as I saw the word "unlock" I knew it is not for me. My grinding days are over. So it holds zero appeal. But I have to agree 100% with the statement above - every PR attempt I have seen from this company screams "If this game fails it wont be because of the game itself, it will be because a vocal minority went on a massive smear campaign and ruined it for the masses that truly love the game"

It's a pre-planned copout. And more than a little disturbing to see the IL-2 name tarnished like this :(

Ow-Chi
Oct-15-2014, 07:49
With all that aside however, reading Zak's post I don't see a threat. Maybe someone who's gotten unreasonably paranoid and worked up about this might see it as that, but that's not what I see. It's a simple statement of fact - if these metacritic scores truly do reflect the opinion of the community, there just isn't much point in them continuing development. I certainly wouldn't want to be busting my ass 6 days a week in a dev studio making a game for an audience that hates me and the product I'm trying to create..

That is not what I see - look again:

"...if their attitude prevails, if haters win and dominate over those who love IL-2 Sturmovik then the game is over..."

"If you want to shut down the series then just leave the situation as it is now, and let a bunch of trolls and haters finish it"

Those two statements speak volumes to me; they don't say "If this is truly the way the community feels" but rather "some meanies are trying to ruin us for no reason".

bongodriver
Oct-15-2014, 08:26
Anyway, nobody can leave a review any more no matter what side of the fence they are on, why they couldn't just shut down the reviews in the first place I don't know.

Archie
Oct-15-2014, 08:32
Well it's a point. Not a good, well thought out or legitimate point but it's a point.


Hood
:)

ATAG_((dB))
Oct-15-2014, 11:33
Am I literally the only one here who read that post and got a completely different message? Firstly - Metacritic matters. For those of you not well-versed in how the games industry works, the funding of a development team is quite often codified with multiple clauses, including more often than not a minimum metacritic score. I wish it wasn't this way because Metacritic quite frankly a terrible website with far too much influence, but that's simply the way things are. Bombing BoS's metacritic page with pithy little 0/10 reviews (I don't care how much you dislike certain aspects of the game, for all its flaws, nobody in good conscience could seriously give BoS a 0/10 without trying to push a silly little agenda of their own) is a bigger deal than you might think it is. That's why reviews like that get taken down and examined by the site, because sadly this kind of smear campaign is fairly common in the wider gaming community at large. It's not people giving their honest, measured opinions of the game, it's outraged fanboys venting their impotent frustration in a pathetic little attempt to "get back" at the developers. Seriously, this sort of thing is old hat and has been going on for years so don't even try to argue that your 0/10 review was your honest, academic opnion of the game as a product.

With all that aside however, reading Zak's post I don't see a threat. Maybe someone who's gotten unreasonably paranoid and worked up about this might see it as that, but that's not what I see. It's a simple statement of fact - if these metacritic scores truly do reflect the opinion of the community, there just isn't much point in them continuing development. I certainly wouldn't want to be busting my ass 6 days a week in a dev studio making a game for an audience that hates me and the product I'm trying to create. Lol, I'd probably throw in the towel and go work on a puzzle-platformer or something. Far more profitable, easier to make and generally doesn't find itself surrounded by a community of screaming fanatics and children. I'm not saying the developers aren't at any fault here whatsoever. That simply wouldn't be true, however that being said, this all boils down to one very depressing bottom-line:

When I came into the flight sim community I initially found it a refreshing change from elsewhere on the internet - everyone was very mature and polite (and in truth that can still very much be said of 95% of the folks here on ATAG - the CloD community seems for the most part to be a sole remaining bastion of sanity these days), and shared more than anything else a passionate love of historical aviation. However in recent weeks it's become blatantly obvious that under the surface it's really no different to any other childish, pathetic gaming clique on the internet. And that makes me really fucking sad.

I'll probably catch plenty of flak for this post but you know what - fine. If I have to be a lone voice of reason in a room full of drama-queens and headless chickens then that's just what I'll do.

+1 sir you are making a lot of sense, we as a community have to think a little more in the long term.
o7

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-15-2014, 11:48
+1 sir you are making a lot of sense, we as a community have to think a little more in the long term.
o7

You're right. It's entirely possible that at some point down the road the devs would have added far more complex systems to the planes, improved the DM commensurately, fixed the FMs, put in a sound engine fit for purpose. Just like they did with RoF with the FM revisions they promised. And a campaign out of beta. Etc. We went long-term thinking with that one and we weren't disappointed. We should have more faith in 777 and 1C. I mean, 1C! They didn't let us down with CloD. Sure, it was released in an unuseable state but they fixed it up for us real good, didn't they. Lots of other shadier companies would have walked away from it and left us with a broken PoS. Long-term thinking, that's the way to go with 1C and 777. Your purchase-money is in good hands.

ATAG_Lolsav
Oct-15-2014, 11:49
When I came into the flight sim community I initially found it a refreshing change from elsewhere on the internet - everyone was very mature and polite (and in truth that can still very much be said of 95% of the folks here on ATAG - the CloD community seems for the most part to be a sole remaining bastion of sanity these days), and shared more than anything else a passionate love of historical aviation. However in recent weeks it's become blatantly obvious that under the surface it's really no different to any other childish, pathetic gaming clique on the internet. And that makes me really fucking sad.

No backfire :)

Im not going to post anything about BOS simply because i dont own the game and i dont intend to. I dont want to elaborate a lot, but i will resume my resistance to 3 words: lack of faith.

Now up to your post. All i see is love :) Truly. You are worried about how this community went of rails (on some posts and i agree with you) in assessing on whats going on elsewhere. People will always be people. If the environment is polite the "polite atitute" strives. If it goes bananas we get bananas on the forums. But generaly speaking this forum keeps doing its purpose (much thanks to our Snapper in the house) and with the "correct" atitude. One subject gets more under the skin on some guys, so be it. I can live with it. Its like going to football, the most puritan will call names to the referee. He transforms himself. I guess its the same what happen to some people when the subject is BOS.

bongodriver
Oct-15-2014, 11:55
it is at best naïve to think it was anything other than a threat, it was plain and simple, there was no ambiguity or loss in translation, they said the reviews are bad, we will shut up shop if that is the best we get so get posting positive reviews if you want us to go on, these developers could have blatantly posted a giant image of the middle finger to us all and the party faithful would have defended it.

Hood
Oct-15-2014, 12:40
Read Zak's post literally and there is no threat from the developers. There is a threat/consequence highlighted about the Metacritic posts and a request that if people feel they should they ought to post their own review.

Anything else is imposing one's own perception into it. Assuming a threat from the developer is a tad hysterical.

Hood

bongodriver
Oct-15-2014, 12:43
My point proved.

robtek
Oct-15-2014, 12:44
I didn't know that ATAG_Bliss is such a stout supporter of BoS!

Bewolf
Oct-15-2014, 12:46
Read Zak's post literally and there is no threat from the developers. There is a threat/consequence highlighted about the Metacritic posts and a request that if people feel they should they ought to post their own review.

Anything else is imposing one's own perception into it. Assuming a threat from the developer is a tad hysterical.

Hood

They should just have asked the community to post their honest reviews. No mentioning of "positive" reviews. No mentioning of any danger to "shut down" the game.
The problem with that post was that is was simply waaaaay to open for personal interpretation. You can read it as threat, as a warning, as a statement of fact, just chose what fits your opinion.

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-15-2014, 12:52
Read Zak's post literally and there is no threat from the developers. There is a threat/consequence highlighted about the Metacritic posts and a request that if people feel they should they ought to post their own review.

Anything else is imposing one's own perception into it. Assuming a threat from the developer is a tad hysterical.

Hood

William's post on the matter certainly says otherwise. And for him not to try and paint it white, with talk of mis-interpretation or "perception", speaks volumes.

Hood
Oct-15-2014, 13:21
And for him not to try and paint it white....

Is this not laudable?

Hood

LuseKofte
Oct-15-2014, 13:57
The meteoritic is a hoax and campaign, it is simply no game worthy of 0/10 . To me it looks like Siggi has multiple nicks in there.

But seriously, those of us that think it is a great potential and manage to have fun with it play around in it. Those not interested like Siggi here, witch proclaimed its death yesterday just ignore it, a massive amount of noise and hysteria would have been avoided.

Now just about everybody have stated that they have given up on this game, why continue make a fuzz about it, if there is not anything else you got in your mind.
I am pretty tired of reading, (and I can quote many here) how stupid and unserious simmer I am for flying that game.
I could if I wanted sit for weeks treating cod the same way, but of course , I love cod, and will not do it. Being called fanboy here and banned at BOS forum . I am tired of these stereotype opinions witch brings nothing.
LuseKofte out

II/JG3~Siggi
Oct-15-2014, 13:57
Is this not laudable?

Hood

No, not when it is in all likelihood motivated by his awareness that to do otherwise would be futile and self-harmful. He says himself in his post he's already lost good friends, never mind made enemies. He has to have reached an understanding at this point how low his stock is.

But that's just me surmising, please don't take it as a statement of fact. Maybe right now he's kicking himself for not having anticipated the "mis-understood/perception/language" angle. :D

Hood
Oct-15-2014, 13:59
So dammed either way. Magnanimous of the community isn't it.

Hood

bongodriver
Oct-15-2014, 14:01
He'll live.

Hood
Oct-15-2014, 14:13
My point proved.


Disproved. Read the words, not what you want to read.

Hood

bongodriver
Oct-15-2014, 14:14
I did, point proved.

ATAG_Colander
Oct-15-2014, 14:15
Alright folks...

- What was written could have been written differently.
- What was understood while reading it, could have been understood differently.
- Some think they wrote A, some think they wrote B
- Some understood A from what they wrote, some understood B.


Does this summarize this discussion so we can put an end to it? :)

Hood
Oct-15-2014, 14:18
I did, point proved.

Disproved. See above.

Hood

ps Up to you Colander.

ATAG_Lolsav
Oct-15-2014, 14:18
I smell a Close thread coming up.. "i did", "no you didnt", "i did", "no you didnt" etc,etc etc ad nauseum. And this gentelmans, thats how you do a reasonable argumentation :-P

Hood
Oct-15-2014, 14:21
My kids give me plenty of practise.

:)

Hood

bongodriver
Oct-15-2014, 14:30
Disproved. See above.

Hood

ps Up to you Colander.

But above is my point saying it's proved, therefore it is proved, proof being the first post of me saying my point is proved :)

ATAG_Colander
Oct-15-2014, 14:34
I wish we could have these discussions on a bar/pub while drinking.
They would start with the "you", "no you" and after enough drinks end with "I love you man!" :)

https://img0.etsystatic.com/031/1/7380103/il_340x270.643960212_fhkv.jpg

Hood
Oct-15-2014, 14:36
But a point has to be stated before it can either be proven or disproved. Reliance on a statement of disproof in this instance cannot itself be evidence proving something stated as fact, given that the original statement is itself unsupported by any corroborative evidence.

Your turn.

Hood

bongodriver
Oct-15-2014, 14:37
Oh Yesh!!!

bongodriver
Oct-15-2014, 14:39
But a point has to be stated before it can either be proven or disproved. Reliance on a statement of disproof in this instance cannot itself be evidence proving something stated as fact, given that the original statement is itself unsupported by any corroborative evidence.

Your turn.

Hood

I stated my case, you came along and proved it.

Chuck_Owl
Oct-15-2014, 14:39
@Colander

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/312/563/05d.jpg

ATAG_Colander
Oct-15-2014, 14:43
My point proved.

Disproved. Read the words, not what you want to read.

I did, point proved.

Disproved. See above.

But above is my point saying it's proved, therefore it is proved, proof being the first post of me saying my point is proved :)

But a point has to be stated before it can either be proven or disproved. Reliance on a statement of disproof in this instance cannot itself be evidence proving something stated as fact, given that the original statement is itself unsupported by any corroborative evidence.

I stated my case, you came along and proved it.


What a waste of keyboard.

ATAG_Snapper
Oct-15-2014, 14:57
What a waste of keyboard.

+1

This is the kind of tit-for-tat stuff that is best communicated by PM, not for 130 fellow forum members to sift through. Please, everyone, remember that each of us are valued guests here in the ATAG Forum. All we ask in return is that we each act accordingly.

Thanks,

Snapper :salute: