Map`s server 1 ( with MK II)

[Little_D]

Hi gents,

i like your new mission typs and scoringsystem, you run on server 1 (exept this early morning .... where i need to fly 1,5 hours to be able to dogfight).

but there are some thinks we can maby talk about:

1. I like the idear about your big bomberformations, but let them kill missiontargets so red not only need to kill the bombers they need to cover the target from the ai-bombers too. let the bombers atack the red spawnbases (make them a missiontarget). so red loos points when the base gets hit and when the dont managed to kill the bombers. make more big german bomberformations from time to time that atack the airfields. so blue has to cover the big bomberformation and bring them in and out.

so red can win the map if they stop the bomberformation and protect there airfilds and blue can win when they bring the bomber to the target and back home.

2. please put the big english bomberformations out. its BoB and blue fighters are for bombercover ore free hunt. let sometimes a wing ( 3 planes ) come in low, medium ore high for targets deep in france, so we can go somtimes for bomberhunting.

3. make for red/bomberpilots some spawnbases to missiontargets, ore like you do now supplyconvois, fueldepots, factorys, etc. and some ships for red in the habours of calais, dunquerk, etc. and for stukaformations or stukapilots/bomberpilots a big convoi that moves.

4. in the moment it is so that you can see 10 MK IIa on the server and no E-4 can be used. (MKIIa is a .... but i like to fly against it, makes me better ;)). So stop the limitation and let everybody fly the E-4 and MKIIa on the maps where they are in use.

lets make it a little bit more like BoB and maby some BoF.

i dont have the patience to build maps like this so i only can bring some ideas to you and i can only thank you for your time you invest to make this maps and run the server. great job :hpyclp:

regards

Little_D

[Doc]

Hi gents,

i like your new mission typs and scoringsystem, you run on server 1 (exept this early morning .... where i need to fly 1,5 hours to be able to dogfight).

but there are some thinks we can maby talk about:

1. I like the idear about your big bomberformations, but let them kill missiontargets so red not only need to kill the bombers they need to cover the target from the ai-bombers too. let the bombers atack the red spawnbases (make them a missiontarget). so red loos points when the base gets hit and when the dont managed to kill the bombers. make more big german bomberformations from time to time that atack the airfields. so blue has to cover the big bomberformation and bring them in and out.

so red can win the map if they stop the bomberformation and protect there airfilds and blue can win when they bring the bomber to the target and back home.

2. please put the big english bomberformations out. its BoB and blue fighters are for bombercover ore free hunt. let sometimes a wing ( 3 planes ) come in low, medium ore high for targets deep in france, so we can go somtimes for bomberhunting.

3. make for red/bomberpilots some spawnbases to missiontargets, ore like you do now supplyconvois, fueldepots, factorys, etc. and some ships for red in the habours of calais, dunquerk, etc. and for stukaformations or stukapilots/bomberpilots a big convoi that moves.

4. in the moment it is so that you can see 10 MK IIa on the server and no E-4 can be used. (MKIIa is a .... but i like to fly against it, makes me better ;)). So stop the limitation and let everybody fly the E-4 and MKIIa on the maps where they are in use.

lets make it a little bit more like BoB and maby some BoF.

i dont have the patience to build maps like this so i only can bring some ideas to you and i can only thank you for your time you invest to make this maps and run the server. great job :hpyclp:

regards

Little_D

Hi D. You do realise that whatever you request there are others that request exactly the opposite right? It can be hard to please everyone.

[ATAG_Deacon]

4. in the moment it is so that you can see 10 MK IIa on the server and no E-4 can be used. (MKIIa is a .... but i like to fly against it, makes me better ). So stop the limitation and let everybody fly the E-4 and MKIIa on the maps where they are in use.


+1 to the nth power :thumbsup:

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hi D. You do realise that whatever you request there are others that request exactly the opposite right? It can be hard to please everyone.

So true. The same applies to MK.MR.X.'s (and others') concerns about the pre-sunrise mission starts. I think it's impossible to have one mission that satisfies everyone, anyway. Speaking selfishly for myself, for several months now flying the Rotol or Ia I've acknowledged that encountering a 109 at co-alt/co-energy will place me in a very tough situation. I'd be a millionaire now if I had a nickel for each time that I or a fellow Red pilot has said, "There he goes -- climbing out of reach again!" Then squinting into the sun's glare trying to determine when the boom & zoom begins. No point running --he's gonna catch you. Turning will delay your death, but die you will. No one on the Red side says "It's the pilot, not the plane." Only Oleg and 109 pilots say that.

Will unlimited availability of Spitfire IIa's cause all 109's to be swept from the skies like a Devine Wind? Possibly -- but I doubt it. The (very) occasional time I've been able to grab one of the few IIa's available I've found I still get shot down by 109's. Shouldn't happen, but I'm a mediocre pilot at best and many of the 109 pilots are very, very good. The one thing I HATE about the Spitfire IIa is that I have no more excuses for being bested!

Thanks to our intrepid ATAG mission designers and the happy inclusion of hc_Wolf, we now have a diverse set of missions in rotation that is rapidly evolving. Ultimately, I could see them being reduced to 4, 3, or even 2 hours each with a wide variety of parameters - time of mission, objectives, weather (someday, hopefully) and, yes, plane sets. As MK.MR.X. decided, if he doesn't like predawn takeoffs, come back a little later once the sun has risen. Meanwhile, the bomber pilots of both sides have the opportunity of winging their way to their respective objectives under cloak of darkness -- as they did in Real Life. So too with plane sets. Hate the thought of going up against the "Sissyfire"? Can't blame you, I'd be scared like a little girl, too! Come back in a little while for the next mission and all will be right again -- the 109's will rule once more. Other Blue pilots may be made of sterner stuff, though. (Those are the ones that ** I ** fear like a little girl! LOL). These are the eagles -- the pilots that adapt, fly high, and figure out how best to kill Sissyfiren. And possibly add to their considerable skill set as well.

Sorry for the Wall of Words -- and not specifically directed at you, Doc. I thank you for giving me the platform. :). I support Little_D's suggestion of unlimited plane sets for both sides, if only as a trial so see "what if". I suspect what will happen is that some pilots of both sides will find they're not as good as they think they are. In my case, i'll be outta excuses.

Snapper

[Little_D]

Hi Doc,

i know :happy.

was only some ideas to go more to a missionserver than a dogfightserver. sorry i like to fly more missionbased than dogfight, for doghfight this is repka i think.

maby try to make more historical based missions and target, place them good an nice so when you fly over it you have something to look at :Grin:.

regards

Little_D

[Dutch]

I think it'd be great to have an 'unlimited everything' mission, but I also think it'd be great to have a very limited one, with just E-1s, G50s and Stukas for the Blue, and MkIs and Hurri DH plus Blen for the Reds.

But it's certainly time to put this Spit II issue to bed and enjoy flying them. Believe it or not, last night I was making some really stupid mistakes in the IIa, simply because it was so much faster and easier to manoeuvre than the Ia.

But Doc is correct, you can please some of the people, some of the time etc.

The mission designers are doing a fantastic job of varying the mission content to suit everyone as much as is possible, and I for one appreciate everything they're doing to attempt to please all at some stage in the missions cycle.

:dthumb:

[Little_D]

Hi Dutch,

yes there is no problem with limited planeset on different missions, gives more different missions, but than please take care that the limitations are on both sides :happy, and not like now 10 MK II and no E-4 possible.

regards

Little_D

[Doc]

I want everything available all the time. I want missions and dog fights. I want it all in one place. This is why I enjoy the channel map. Some day the entire map will be open and you can do anything anytime anywhere. Be patient we will get there. There are great things coming. You're in the right place gents.

[ATAG_Colander]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sltSm5mUniw

[ATAG_Knuckles]

I want everything available all the time. I want missions and dog fights. I want it all in one place. This is why I enjoy the channel map. Some day the entire map will be open and you can do anything anytime anywhere. Be patient we will get there. There are great things coming. You're in the right place gents.

I really agree there Doc. This is gonna just keep getting better. I enjoy as its is now, but the future :thumbsup:

[Wolf]

Hi all,

Nice to read all the ideas and comments hare about mission design while I am laid up at the park hyatt in melbourne with my wife for easter.

I agree with you all on most things and while I won't get time to release the updated RedVBlue 1.0 mission this weekend, it will by next week have some or all of the following.

Early morning start AFTER sunrise, so it is not dark but beautiful colours.
Spit and 109 limits maybe removed or upped. Not sure which mission has a spit2 limit of 10 and 0 109's. That is wrong. Not sure what mission that's on. I work on RedvBlue 1.0
Revised air bases and types of planes selectable there

Now I know score system is working I can up the anti.

Ground target:
-Bomber group objectives will bomb targets that influence scores
-New large german factory objective deep in france (requires large bomber attacks to complete objective, navigate past flack
-New english factory objectives
-more large bomber group objective
- more low level bomber attack groups

Post patch (if train trigger collisions fixed)
Armed RailRoad objectives
Bigger bomber groups
Expanded battle area
On enter plane - new immersion random things. Eg. Fuel tanker drives away from plane making u think u have just been fueled.

So much coming in nex 7 days. Keep an eye on the server 2 new mission thread for my updates and keep giving me ideas and good and bads.

[Little_D]

Hi hc_wolf,

sounds good, and take you the time you need to make the maps better and more interesting.

regards

Little_D

[Wolf]

I have updated to RedvBlue 1.1 and these are the new Objectives below on Server 2. It is ready to be added to Server 1 rotation.
I have added 10 ground objectives to each side ranging from short to lond deep bombing runs.
I have added more bomber groups and have them target some of the objectives below.
upped the allowed spits and 109's to 10 on each side as bombers now harder to shoot down.

Menu system working well


Red v Blue 1.1
<Description>
Red or Blue must Score 3500 points to WIN!
Completed Objectives get 100 point bonus Faild Objectives -100

<b>TAB+4 to use menu</b>
1: General Info:
2: Air & Ground Scoring system
3:Total Server Time

Red or Blue must Score 3500 points to WIN!

Primary: Check Objective status InGame(Tab+4+3)
BlueObjective1 E11-H10 Destroy Supply Column Sittingbourne to Cantebury
BlueObjective2 H10-G8 Destroy Supply Column Cantebury to Lypne
BlueObjective3 Blue ships Survive
BlueObjective4 Red ships Destroyed all 7
BlueObjective5 Red ships Destroyed all 10
BlueObjective6 E10: HEAVY TANK FACTORY
BlueObjective7 G10: SUPPLY DEPO
BlueObjective8 J11: RAMSGATE RAIL FACTORIES
BlueObjective9 J12: RAMSGATE AIRFIELD
BlueObjective10 F12: SPIT FACTORY
BlueObjective11 I8: FOLKESTON PORT FUEL
BlueObjective12 G8: AMMO FACTORY
BlueObjective13 H9: HAWKINGE AIRFIELD
BlueObjective14 I9: DOVER PORT TANKS
BlueObjective15 G8: LYPNE AIRFIELD
/*-----------------------Bomber Group Objectives Blue ---------------------*/
BlueObjective16 Destroy English Bomber groups
BlueObjective17 Destroy English Bomber groups



Primary: Check Objective status InGame(Tab+4+3)
RedObjective1 Sittingbourne Supply Column Survives
RedObjective2 Lypne Supply Column Survives
RedObjective3 Blue ships Destroyed all 5
RedObjective4 Red ships Survive
RedObjective5 Red ships Survive
RedObjective6 R4: OXYGEN FACILITY
RedObjective7 N4: RADAR FACILITY
RedObjective8 L6: SUPPLY DEPOT
RedObjective9 O4: MOTOR VEHICLE SUPPLY
RedObjective10 O5: TANK REPAIR FACTORY
RedObjective11 M5: SMALL FACTORY
RedObjective12 O2: HEAVY TANK FACTORY
RedObjective13 M2: PLANE FACTORY SEMPY
RedObjective14 P3: LIGHT TANK FACTORY
RedObjective15 P3: LIGHT TANKS
/*-----------------------Bomber Group Objectives Red ---------------------*/
RedObjective16 Destroy Bomber Blitzkrieg groups
RedObjective17 Destroy Bomber Blitzkrieg groups



*** Note! The above is uploaded to server 2. ***

[CanvasKnight]

Personally, I think that it would be totally fine to have no limits on the planes. The E-4's performance is identical to the E-1 and E-3 - the only difference that you'd notice fighting one would be the cannons (there are several more significant differences for its pilot, like the new cockpit framing and the automatic prop pitch). He still has to get guns on you to beat you. The Spit IIa is also not scary - sure it performs better than any of the other planes on paper, but it still lacks a fuel injected engine. The 109 isn't COMPLETELY helpless against one, just at a disadvantage. Good pilot skill more than makes up for the difference between the 109 and the Spit II.

Really my personal opinion is: Let them fly whatever fighter they want, E-4 or Spit IIa if they really want to spoil themselves. Hopefully it will stop the incessant whining about how "my plane is so much worse than everyone elses and THAT's the reason I keep getting my butt kicked!"

Really, the performance of the E series 109s and the Spits/Hurries in the game aren't much different. The difference in speed, climb, etc is very small compared to the difference in speed between late war aircraft, like say a G-6 vs a Spit IXe or P-51, or an MW50 boosted G-10 vs a Spit. And let's not even talk about the Pacific theater, where the main Japanese aircraft, the Ki-43, is more than 150km/h slower than the P-38 (thats like the difference between an Me-262 and a P-51). Basically, I think that all of the whiners are being spoiled - there is nothing to whine about. Just you wait until the game expands into the late war. If these tiny performance gaps between the Hurri/Spit and the 109E, or the 109E and the Spit IIa have your panties in a knot, you are going to have an heart attack if you try and fly in 1943 or 44.


The ONLY concern I have about not limiting the numbers of planes is that it isn't historical to have most of the red team flying Spit IIs. The Spit IIs were almost as rare as the E-7 was. The E-4, on the other hand, was extremely common. So from a historical perspective, it's bad.

[Doc]

"Good pilot skill more than makes up for the difference between the 109 and the Spit II"

You actually believe others will accept that its them and not the plane? lol Lots of people believe its the other way. Because all they do is read some place that one is faster than the other and they're off to the races.

Get'n my popcorn ready. :bgsmile:

[CanvasKnight]

You know, now that I think about it, I probably shouldn't have said that, lol. I don't want to see this turn into Cliffs of Dover's version of the "Spit 25lber/Ta-152" argument that used to terrorize the Warclouds forums. Should I just delete the post? Or can we all keep our gloves on?

:hiding:

[ATAG_Knuckles]

You know, now that I think about it, I probably shouldn't have said that, lol. I don't want to see this turn into Cliffs of Dover's version of the "Spit 25lber/Ta-152" argument that used to terrorize the Warclouds forums. Should I just delete the post? Or can we all keep our gloves on?

:hiding:

You know lets see where this goes. I tend to see a bit more common sense/Maturity on this forum. Doc: I'm with you on pilot skills. I'm a crummy fighter pilot and the IIa did not help me except to get me to my death quicker.

At this point I will only use a Ia. I am practicing to learn every ounce of what I can get from it, as will a tactics, then go from there.

[ATAG_Septic]

Personally, I think that it would be totally fine to have no limits on the planes. The E-4's performance is identical to the E-1 and E-3 - the only difference that you'd notice fighting one would be the cannons (there are several more significant differences for its pilot, like the new cockpit framing and the automatic prop pitch). He still has to get guns on you to beat you. The Spit IIa is also not scary - sure it performs better than any of the other planes on paper, but it still lacks a fuel injected engine. The 109 isn't COMPLETELY helpless against one, just at a disadvantage. Good pilot skill more than makes up for the difference between the 109 and the Spit II.

Really my personal opinion is: Let them fly whatever fighter they want, E-4 or Spit IIa if they really want to spoil themselves. Hopefully it will stop the incessant whining about how "my plane is so much worse than everyone elses and THAT's the reason I keep getting my butt kicked!"

Really, the performance of the E series 109s and the Spits/Hurries in the game aren't much different. The difference in speed, climb, etc is very small compared to the difference in speed between late war aircraft, like say a G-6 vs a Spit IXe or P-51, or an MW50 boosted G-10 vs a Spit. And let's not even talk about the Pacific theater, where the main Japanese aircraft, the Ki-43, is more than 150km/h slower than the P-38 (thats like the difference between an Me-262 and a P-51). Basically, I think that all of the whiners are being spoiled - there is nothing to whine about. Just you wait until the game expands into the late war. If these tiny performance gaps between the Hurri/Spit and the 109E, or the 109E and the Spit IIa have your panties in a knot, you are going to have an heart attack if you try and fly in 1943 or 44.


The ONLY concern I have about not limiting the numbers of planes is that it isn't historical to have most of the red team flying Spit IIs. The Spit IIs were almost as rare as the E-7 was. The E-4, on the other hand, was extremely common. So from a historical perspective, it's bad.

I usually steer clear of these topics because it's an argument that cannot be empirically won, but I read your post and I have a lot of sympathy with your sentiments Dullahan. As I'm in a bad mood I'm going to treat myself to a rant on the subject.

What really annoys me is that all these whiner 'Ace' gamers clearly care only about their performance against other Ace players. That's their business and I do not wish to attempt to deny this right, not that I could of course, but there are players of all skill levels affected by these choices so I express an opinion from one such player.

A Spit IIa in my hands is no deadly killer at all, I'm an easy kill for one of these Ace gamers in any plane but because these people want their precious numbers and to be able to score or defend with predictable outcomes against their contemporaries, I am denied the chance to use the IIa on line. When planes are limited I will not take one unless the server is unusually quiet, it seems a waste in my novice hands. But, this simulation is more than a mere pixel manipulation test, there's all types of those games available for that, it's supposed to have some pretend realism for gawd's sake! The sky was not full of Ace pilots in their chosen machine sparring with other Ace pilots, these were occasional encounters.

I have expressed this opinion before, and it's always been totally ignored and I expect no more this time, but I do wonder why?

Rant Over, Septic Out.

[Doc]

You know, now that I think about it, I probably shouldn't have said that, lol. I don't want to see this turn into Cliffs of Dover's version of the "Spit 25lber/Ta-152" argument that used to terrorize the Warclouds forums. Should I just delete the post? Or can we all keep our gloves on?

:hiding:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm81LSKJC2k

[ATAG_Snapper]

When Red pilots whine about Spitfire Ia's and Rotols vs 109's the Blue pilots tell them "It's the pilot, not the plane."

When Blue pilots whine about 109's vs Spitfire IIa's, the Red pilots tell them "It's the pilot, not the plane".

And so it goes.....

[Dutch]

Lawks a lawdy not again..................

Fact: A Hurricane (rotol) outclimbing and outspeeding a Spit 1a (rotol) is just a bleedin' joke. It didn't happen, with or without 100 octane fuel.

Let the devs sort out the FMs.

In the meantime, enjoy the game as it is.

If the blue guys think the IIa is so good, fly it (with its negative g cutout and its 15s of ammo). Otherwise stop bloody moaning.

I won't fly a 109 even though it's so obviously superior to the Ia and the Hurri in the game, but I don't complain, I just fly what there is. What's more, I don't get too bad a kill score when I do.

Bloody primadonnas. Sheesh. Sorry folks, but this topic gets on my wick.

[ATAG_Snapper]

When the FM's do get sorted out per established data, it will make for a more interesting sim for both sides.

[Dutch]

Amen. :Grin:

[ATAG_Snapper]

Here's some interesting data supplied by VO_Tom over at 1C:

Hi. What is relatively accurately be measured, is the speed at sea level. (mph) (RL datas from Spitperformance):

Hurri D-5-20. In the game 240 instead of 262. -8,4%
Hurri Rotol. In the game 260 instead of 265. -1,8%
Spit I. In the game 240 instead of 283. -15,9%
Spit Ia. In the game 240 instead of 283*. -15,9%
Spit IIa. In the game 300 instead of 290. +3,4%

Fiat G.50. In the game 223 instead of 248. -9,9%
Messer E-1. In the game 273 instead of 302**. -9,4%
Messer E-3, E-4. In the game 273 instead of 290***. -5,7%

This is from a post he'd made late last year (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=347529&postcount=28). AFAIK the RAF numbers in-game are spot on with what I can achieve in-game myself; I can't speak for the LW in-game data. If the devs see fit to use the Real Life numbers that Tom researched, then the performance of RAF vs LW will be more closely aligned.

The Blue pilots that have learned how to defeat the Spitfire IIa in-game now will be on familiar turf when (if) the FM mods are done. I believe Little D will be one of them. :thumbsup:

[Wolf]

I am happy to make no limits on the RedvBlue missions. At moment it is upped to 10 spitII and 10 109-4's

You want 50 per side??? limit is about 50 people on server anyway.

Besides I have made bombers harder to shoot then a novice and the flight model's are not completly accurate.

You are gonna need 25 spitII's in the next bomber raid I have planned for both sides. You ain't seen Battle of Brit till you seen the upcoming German Bomber Blitz!

and brits Blitz also hehehe

[ATAG_Snapper]

If we enabled unrestricted availability of IIa's and E4's, would there be any Blue pilots to fight?

[Wolf]

thats what i think

[Dutch]

What really annoys me is that all these whiner 'Ace' gamers clearly care only about their performance against other Ace players.

Agree with all of Septics rant. As I said the other day, when I took a IIa up with Snapper for the first time in months, the first thing I did was collide with a Dornier, the thing was so much faster than my usual Ia. :blush!:

And it's probably also true that unlimited everything would see all the Luftwhiners depart the server.

Keep the E3/E4s limited to the same number as the IIa is my view.

But I strongly suggest that the days of 'No Spit IIs or we won't fly' are well behind us, or should be, and the same number of IIas should be available on all maps where E3/E4s are available or vice versa. 10 seems a perfect number to me.

Whether this is 'Historically Correct' or not is arguably irrelevant, unless the events of a particular date in 1940 are being emulated, and the exact ratio of each mark of aircraft restricted accordingly (good luck with the research!). I'd love to witness '150+ Bombers escorted by 300 fighters' too, but it's doubtful that we will in the near future......

P.S. I do intend getting some serious stick time in on fighters for the forseeable, my secondment to Bomber Command has led to a serious deterioration in my situational awareness. I've even started fastening my top button. I'd like to be able to re-hone my skills in something that feels like a Spitfire, rather than the castrated and asthmatic thing they call a 'Ia', without feeling as Septic said, that it would be 'a waste'. And I just keep stalling and spinning in the Hurri. Got shot down by a bloody Stuka as a result only yesterday. Oh, the shame........................

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

I would like to see the planeset be historical with a variety of aircraft in use. I think we all know that if made unlimited, 99% of red will fly the IIa which will drive players away. My thought would be to include it in missions where it would be appropriate (Sept. 1940 scenario or later) and maybe spawn it at one of the Northern bases (ex.Rochester).

As for the mission, the objective list seems a bit much for a server that averages ~30 players and might spread people to thin. My fear would be with so many AI any about that human vs human confrontations would be fewer. Like the planeset it would be nice to see historical BoB targets which for blue would be predominantly channel convoys, ports, airfields, radar sites, aircraft factories, and finally London. Red bomber targets would be shipping, airfields, and invasion barges. Maybe some of those tank factories could be made into Supermarine or Hawker aircraft plants and red could bomb static invasion barges assembling at Boulogne or Calais as show in the pic.

619

The larger AI formations are neat to see but 900m is pretty damn low, which aside from Erpro 210 doing low level attacks with 110's the Germans did not do much of. I've tried to escort them and even if protected from fighters the flak shoots them all down anyway. Since that adds to the mission score it would be best to keep the bombers at higher altitudes. One thing I would like to see with AI if possible would be lone recon planes that spawn randomly and unannounced. It would add to mission immersion to be flying along and see an He 115 seaplane searching the channel for downed aircrew, a lone JU-88 surveying damage from a previous raid, or Sunderland/Fw200 searching for shipping.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Here's the part I don't understand:

1) In-game all 109 models are 13 mph faster than the Hurricane Rotol and 33 mph faster than the Spitfire I and Spitfire Ia.

2) In-game the Spitfire IIa is 27 mph faster than all models of the 109.

Red pilots are not "driven off" in situation (1), but Blue pilots are driven off in situation (2).

Why is this?

If and when the FM's are corrected will the smaller increase in Vmax for the 109 models be enough to retain Blue pilots for when the Spitfire I's and Ia's are corrected to a whopping 43 mph increase in Vmax? Or will the Blue pilots leave in droves unless the Red plane set is restricted to just Hurricane Rotols and DH5-20's?

EDIT: This is assuming there will be a correction in flight models. To date, I have seen no acknowledgement from Luthier or Black Six that these will be. AFAIK, they are content with the flight modelling as is and no correction is slated to be done. When I asked Black Six in the 1C Forum about the fuel issue for RAF fighters (ie no overboost to 12 lbs) he was unaware of any issue; he never gave a direct answer to a direct question.

I realize the issue of flight modelling correction for ALL fighter aircraft (Red and Blue) has been put forward in the new Bugtracker report. No answer at this time whether it will be addressed or not. It would be premature to assume any consideration will be given to this aspect of the sim.

[Dutch]

Red pilots are not "driven off" in situation (1), but Blue pilots are driven off in situation (2).

Why is this?

Well I don't know, and I don't intend any offence by this comment, but maybe it's the psychological affinity players show for their preferred side reflecting the actual 'ethos' of the airforces at the time. I'm not suggesting anything political here at all, before anyone misunderstands me.

It's well known that personal scores were scorned in Fighter Command, teamwork was the whole focus of Squadron life and that anyone bragging re personal scores was ridiculed in the RAF's own inimitable way.

Conversely, Luftwaffe Jagdflieger were decorated on the basis of their personal scores, with many a 'Katchmarek' being sacrificed to further the 'Experten's' personal score, allegedly. In this way, the 'Experten' became media celebrities on an individual basis. A certain Blue Flyer from Russia could already be said to have a degree of 'celebrity status' within the game we fly.

Other people who fly Blue have previously made statements such as 'Red seem better organised', 'There're always more Reds on TS than Blue', when explaining why Red team win the 'map/battle' more frequently than Blue. Again reflecting the real situation in 1940, where RAF teamwork, information and communication were vital. Intriguing stuff.

So the 'Warrior Hero Celebrity' would stomp off in a huff if he thought he was being disadvantaged, whether fairly or not, whereas the 'Team Players' make the best of being the underdogs by flying crap planes well, and keeping in mind the longer term objective, i.e. 'winning the Battle'.

Now I really should hide under a chair, just in case! :hiding:

[Recoilfx]

Well I don't know, and I don't intend any offence by this comment, but maybe it's the psychological affinity players show for their preferred side reflecting the actual 'ethos' of the airforces at the time. I'm not suggesting anything political here at all, before anyone misunderstands me.

It's well known that personal scores were scorned in Fighter Command, teamwork was the whole focus of Squadron life and that anyone bragging re personal scores was ridiculed in the RAF's own inimitable way.

Conversely, Luftwaffe Jagdflieger were decorated on the basis of their personal scores, with many a 'Katchmarek' being sacrificed to further the 'Experten's' personal score, allegedly. In this way, the 'Experten' became media celebrities on an individual basis. A certain Blue Flyer from Russia could already be said to have a degree of 'celebrity status' within the game we fly.

Other people who fly Blue have previously made statements such as 'Red seem better organised', 'There're always more Reds on TS than Blue', when explaining why Red team win the 'map/battle' more frequently than Blue. Again reflecting the real situation in 1940, where RAF teamwork, information and communication were vital. Intriguing stuff.

So the 'Warrior Hero Celebrity' would stomp off in a huff if he thought he was being disadvantaged, whether fairly or not, whereas the 'Team Players' make the best of being the underdogs by flying crap planes well, and keeping in mind the longer term objective, i.e. 'winning the Battle'.

Now I really should hide under a chair, just in case! :hiding:

No offense taken, but I think you got it wrong. There simply aren't enough blue players - and they are not on comms as much. Reds almost always dominate blues in number during nights (in the US). When there are more blue players (and on comms), you see team work develop naturally.

Reds also tends to play defensively at base which consequently have more planes in smaller area so it feels that the reds are more team focused. Blues have to come in waves as they make trek to the English coast. Of course, we also have certain crazy good players that take advantage of BnZ very well and that also make us look going alone.

Also don't forget that some us go alone to stir the nest so that our bombers can raid your base the other end :)

[ATAG_Colander]

And...
I found a problem with the new mission which allowed 10 IIa's and no E4's
Not really an excuse but a lot of pilots find this unfair.

This should be fixed now to allow 5 and 5.

Colander.

[Doc]

I've said some of these I am sure. And I still mean it.

People are in here for a variety of reasons. During the real thing not everyone that wanted to be a pilot got to be one.

This is a game. As much as we want to make our immersion as good as we wish we will never be able to truly control the people come into the ranks and want to be part of this. The human element.

Tomorrow someone else new will purchase this and join us on comms and proceed to tell all about everything you really didn't want to know anyway.

This is why sometimes you see zero persons on red comms but yet have as many or more in the game as blue. Some of the blues do it as well. There is no means to coordinate with them on another TS server at all. We're just all here and at the end of the day we're all doing whatever we want and some of us are all alone. No wonder they get taken advantaged of they're easy prey.

They tend to close their ranks by allowing only those in their squads that take it to the level the squad is willing to step it up to.

This is their filter in today's sim world as was utilized during the great air battles back then. And I understand why they do this.

Since recently flying on both sides I realize that what I have been saying all along is very true. Pilot not plane.

Giving yourself a distinct advantage before you commit an attack on an antagonist without him knowing you are there is where the pilot separates himself from the casual flyer. Anyone of these planes can be used to shoot anything down as often as you like. Develop a plan and method and work your plan. If you find yourself getting beat up a lot recalculate your method and try again.

[Recoilfx]

Here's the part I don't understand:

1) In-game all 109 models are 13 mph faster than the Hurricane Rotol and 33 mph faster than the Spitfire I and Spitfire Ia.

2) In-game the Spitfire IIa is 27 mph faster than all models of the 109.

Red pilots are not "driven off" in situation (1), but Blue pilots are driven off in situation (2).

Why is this?



Well the mission was/is bugged with 10 spit IIas and 1-2 E4s available. It's pretty much a death sentence to any 109s unless there are a lot blue players on comms (which doesn't happen as people naturally just don't like to fly Blue planes as much) for team work.

Spit IIas out-climb, outrun, out-turn against the blues. The only + blue has is the E4 with its firepower . When that's denied due to the mission bug, yeah, the blue players will leave.

Also, top speed as a metric isn't a good assessment. The Spit IIa has crazy energy retaining attribute that the fight becomes hopeless within 1-2 turns (I am not even talking bout tight turns).

[Dutch]

Reds also tends to play defensively at base.....Also don't forget that some us go alone to stir the nest so that our bombers can raid your base the other end :)

Well Red fighters should do this in a Battle of Britain scenario! Or escort the Blens, which also happens frequently.

What I don't see too often are 109/110s coming over in any more than pairs, and usually solo. The manned Blue bombers are usually solo and unescorted. I can only remember one occasion when Borris, Fastfed and Doc all came over in 88s with an escort, albeit one after the other because of the formation problem. They ran into about half a dozen Red fighters and we all had a fantastic little scrap.

What I don't really understand is the frequency at which solo or pairs of 109s come over and dogfight without any thought of protecting their facilities in France, or escorting Bombers. That has to be a personal score thing rather than a team/battle thing, or why else?

Do you have an alternative answer to Snapper's question as to why Blue flyers disappear if disadvantaged and Red flyers stay.......? :inq:

Edit: Sorry, cross post. Don't forget the disadvantage of negative G cutout and only 15s of ammo in the Spit II. All 109s have fuel injection and 55s ammo don't they?

[ATAG_Snapper]

Also, top speed as a metric isn't a good assessment. The Spit IIa has crazy energy retaining attribute that the fight becomes hopeless within 1-2 turns (I am not even talking bout tight turns).

Well, that's a myth I debunked in this very forum in post #69:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?1119-Friday-CoD-Update-February-10-2012/page3&highlight=Immelmann

The same could be said, falsely as well, about the 109's having "rocket-assist" in their phenomenal vertical climbs from a co-energy pursuit scenario. So many times I and fellow Reds have chased a 109 on the deck only to have him suddenly climb near-vertical out of harm's reach. Except, of course, when we have the rare opportunity to fly a IIa. In that situation a Blue pilot discovers precisely how us Red pilots have felt the past year -- no escape. It's a lousy feeling when the situation is reversed.

[Slingn]

I think most of us guys on blue coms do a good working together, but there are those they do run off to waste time on ai bombers, or get involved with their own personal war. Personally, its really not even a lot of fun to me if I'm not involved with my teammates. (Even if I'm a uselesss escort,,sorry doc). When every thing and everybody are working together, its blast. Welll at least untill the launcher crash, but that's another line. I think most of us are just looking forward to when we can attack in formation. Its pretty tough right now when u have to escort from so far away because u fear the crash. Anyway, the future looks bright and I see some epic battles on the horizon

[Recoilfx]

Well Red fighters should do this in a Battle of Britain scenario! Or escort the Blens, which also happens frequently.

What I don't see too often are 109/110s coming over in any more than pairs, and usually solo. The manned Blue bombers are usually solo and unescorted. I can only remember one occasion when Borris, Fastfed and Doc all came over in 88s with an escort, albeit one after the other because of the formation problem. They ran into about half a dozen Red fighters and we all had a fantastic little scrap.

What I don't really understand is the frequency at which solo or pairs of 109s come over and dogfight without any thought of protecting their facilities in France, or escorting Bombers. That has to be a personal score thing rather than a team/battle thing, or why else?

Do you have an alternative answer to Snapper's question as to why Blue flyers disappear if disadvantaged and Red flyers stay.......? :inq:

Edit: Sorry, cross post. Don't forget the disadvantage of negative G cutout and only 15s of ammo in the Spit II. All 109s have fuel injection and 55s ammo don't they?

I am not saying reds shouldn't play defensively, I am simply stating that seem more team work oriented because they are more closely approximated.

Again, I've already explained the frequency of 'solo' or 'pair's of 109.
Recap:
1.) Smaller number of blue players
2.) It's a long trek, so we come in waves. Sometimes if I get shot down first, while the other 109s are around the area, by the time I arrive there again, I might be the only one left.
3.) We naturally don't have as much defense because as you have said, reds play defensively.
4.) We have crazy Russians such as Mr X who doesn't speak English, therefore solos.

It's funny that you say we don't fly escorts because we think the reds don't either. I myself caught you Dutch many times unescorted :)

I personally may not be flying along side with the bombers, but I do try to meet bombers at specific hot spots.

My answer to why Blues leave, again has been explained:
10 Spit IIa vs 1-2 e4s. Bugged mission.

[Dutch]

My answer to why Blues leave, again has been explained:
10 Spit IIa vs 1-2 e4s. Bugged mission.

Yes, but you haven't explained why Red flyers stay, regardless of how they're disadvantaged by the planeset, in a map with no Spit IIs at all.......:inq:
That was the basis of Snapper's question, why do Red stay if disadvantaged, when Blue leave if disadvantaged?

P.S. I know you've caught me, and so has Colander, except for the time I caught him.......oops!

[Recoilfx]

Yes, but you haven't explained why Red flyers stay, regardless of how they're disadvantaged by the planeset, in a map with no Spit IIs at all.......:inq:
That was the basis of Snapper's question, why do Red stay if disadvantaged, when Blue leave if disadvantaged?

P.S. I know you've caught me, and so has Colander, except for the time I caught him.......oops!

I thought I already said it... Because 10 Spit IIa vs 1-2 E4 is horribly skewed, much more so than the E1 & E3 vs Spit Ia and Rotol.

[9./JG52 Hans Gruber]

When I fly a Hurricane or Spitfire Ia and I get in a fight with a 109 I know I have a chance. If everything goes to hell I always have the turning fight to fall back. In a 109 against a Spit IIa I know I'm pretty much screwed in a 1v1 fight. Can't turn, can't run, can't climb. I can bunt into a dive and his engine will cough & sputter for a second but when you level out of the dive he will catch you. Spitfire Ia/Hurricane vs 109 is not a hopeless situation for red. Spit IIa vs 109 is hopeless for blue so it should come as no shock when people choose not to play a map where the outcome is more or less predetermined. Also, are we really saying 15 seconds of fire from 8 machine guns is worse than 55 seconds from 2?

[Doc]

Well the mission was/is bugged with 10 spit IIas and 1-2 E4s available. It's pretty much a death sentence to any 109s unless there are a lot blue players on comms (which doesn't happen as people naturally just don't like to fly Blue planes as much) for team work.

Spit IIas out-climb, outrun, out-turn against the blues. The only + blue has is the E4 with its firepower . When that's denied due to the mission bug, yeah, the blue players will leave.

Also, top speed as a metric isn't a good assessment. The Spit IIa has crazy energy retaining attribute that the fight becomes hopeless within 1-2 turns (I am not even talking bout tight turns).

I love the spit 2 try to fly it whenever I can. But I assure you that you can't outclimb me in your spit and me in my 109 if I attack you on my terms not yours - but like every time I go out I just say screw it and do it anyway and start something I shouldn't and lose. But AT LEAST I HAD FUN! We always think of these in terms of a controlled environment where all settings are controller and that's never true.

You get bounced. Then there's the spit you never saw until its too late.

What can out climb the other and which is better the answer is it all DEPENDS.

I've run circles around 109s and in the same plane 5 minutes later someone puts on a clinic for me in how to fly a 109 or how not to fly a spit.

It all DEPENDS.

[ATAG_Colander]

I agree, every situation is different.
Think of it as chess.

[Doc]

So where is Dullahan? He comes in here and the new guy asked a question and he leaves.

I still am doing this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm81LSKJC2k

[Recoilfx]

Well, that's a myth I debunked in this very forum in post #69:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?1119-Friday-CoD-Update-February-10-2012/page3&highlight=Immelmann

The same could be said, falsely as well, about the 109's having "rocket-assist" in their phenomenal vertical climbs from a co-energy pursuit scenario. So many times I and fellow Reds have chased a 109 on the deck only to have him suddenly climb near-vertical out of harm's reach. Except, of course, when we have the rare opportunity to fly a IIa. In that situation a Blue pilot discovers precisely how us Red pilots have felt the past year -- no escape. It's a lousy feeling when the situation is reversed.

I am not sure what has been debunked - I never said Spit IIas don't lose energy on turns and your video was a comparison between the RAF fighters

My point was that Spit IIa retains that much more energy vs 109 and handles that much better (as it should historically). Your absolute metric of speed was not a good representation of how it would play out in a fight. I would absolutely choose Spit IIa over the e4 in a 1 on 1, given the choice.

But when the reds already out number the blues and no e4s are even available, blue players have reasons to not stay.

[Doc]

Oh look I found Dullahan -> :hiding: <- in the air-raid shelter??

Still ain't heard a peep out of him yet.

:bgsmile:

[ATAG_Snapper]

I've said some of these I am sure. And I still mean it.

People are in here for a variety of reasons. During the real thing not everyone that wanted to be a pilot got to be one.

This is a game. As much as we want to make our immersion as good as we wish we will never be able to truly control the people come into the ranks and want to be part of this. The human element.

Tomorrow someone else new will purchase this and join us on comms and proceed to tell all about everything you really didn't want to know anyway.

This is why sometimes you see zero persons on red comms but yet have as many or more in the game as blue. Some of the blues do it as well. There is no means to coordinate with them on another TS server at all. We're just all here and at the end of the day we're all doing whatever we want and some of us are all alone. No wonder they get taken advantaged of they're easy prey.

They tend to close their ranks by allowing only those in their squads that take it to the level the squad is willing to step it up to.

This is their filter in today's sim world as was utilized during the great air battles back then. And I understand why they do this.

Since recently flying on both sides I realize that what I have been saying all along is very true. Pilot not plane.

Giving yourself a distinct advantage before you commit an attack on an antagonist without him knowing you are there is where the pilot separates himself from the casual flyer. Anyone of these planes can be used to shoot anything down as often as you like. Develop a plan and method and work your plan. If you find yourself getting beat up a lot recalculate your method and try again.

re Comms (Teamspeak): Frequently it's great because everyone is of a like mind. Othertimes I'll quickly change to another channel (or mute earphones & mic) if it's destroying my immersion. Nothing worse than getting into a furball and guys are chatting in your ear.

I've had good success by observing and putting into practice what seems to work for my opponents. Grabbing lots of altitude, keeping between the sun and your quarry, mastering (well, working at it) deflection shooting, boom & zoom surprise tactics, etc. this all works quite well when I have the initiative. Unfortunately, you can't always choose the initiative and THIS is when I'd rather be flying a IIa rather than a Hurricane DH5-20. A sudden encounter with the enemy in a co-energy or disadvantaged situation can occur that is NOT your fault (ie. soon after take off) and you find yourself wishing for every little bit of horsepower available to you. Plus, a IIa climbs much faster than the other RAF models which makes it far better suited as an interceptor -- it's prime role in the Battle of Britain.

Clearly many Blue pilots think the same, otherwise they wouldn't be hankering for E4's but would be content to fly G50's!

[Dutch]

I thought I already said it... Because 10 Spit IIa vs 1-2 E4 is horribly skewed, much more so than the E1 & E3 vs Spit Ia and Rotol.

Well you haven't said it really, you've avoided the question of ammo duration and fuel injection. Both E1 and E3 have 55s firing time and can bunt away (dive) and outclimb any red fighter but for the IIa.

But it looks as though the Blue chaps get their way again, because the limit is now at 5 and 5, as per Colander's post, rather than 10 and 10 as per Wolf's post.

[Recoilfx]

Well you haven't said it really, you've avoided the question of ammo duration and fuel injection. Both E1 and E3 have 55s firing time and can bunt away (dive) and outclimb any red fighter but for the IIa.

But it looks as though the Blue chaps get their way again, because the limit is now at 5 and 5, as per Colander's post, rather than 10 and 10 as per Wolf's post.

Sorry. I didn't see the ammo duration and fuel injection. But I'll answer that now:

Fuel injection - historically accurate for the 109. If anything, didn't Luthier stated in one of the first patches that neg g effect for the merlins was reduced (just like the shaking needles)? In any case, you can't bunt away from Spit IIas.

The 55 seconds firing time is from the 2 nose machine guns... E1's outer wings have less than half of the amount. E3's canons are limited to 60 rounds with very slow velocity and really, doesn't do that much damage compare to m-geschoss.

You can't use convergence of canons and machine guns together with the e3 & the e4 on deflection shots because the velocity of the ammunition is different.

Gunnery in the 109 is significant harder compare to the Brit planes because of the tiny gunsight we have and tracers that disappear in short distance.

Honestly, if blue planes are that much better, come fly with our side too! We need more pilots!

[Dutch]

In any case, you can't bunt away from Spit IIas.

Eh? Why not?? They still have neg G cutout. We still have to invert and follow, also as per real life. We also only have 15s of ammo as per real life.

I know fuel injection is historically accurate. I know some of the gun stuff. What I'm trying to say is that Red team have a few inherent disadvantages as per real life in addition to the ridiculously 'porked' FM of the Spits apart from the IIa. Before you say 'Well just fly the Rotol Hurri' the handling characteristics are totally different to the Spits'.

Trouble is, there are issues in the FM for the Blue a/c too, as well as historical ones. It's already known that the IIa and the Rotol Hurri are the most accurate FMs in the game but for ceiling, so why don't Blue scream for the Rotol Hurri to be limited too? It performs better against the 109s than it should, but not so much as to disadvantage the 109s on a gameplay level , is the answer. If it did, Blue would take their ball home and refuse to play with the Rotol Hurri too, because this is a gameplay issue not a historical one, unless of course it suits the Blues, as with minengeschoss.

In other words, the FMs of the IIa and Rotol Hurri are 'Historically Accurate', but if historical accuracy gives a gameplay advantage over Blue it has to be limited as with Spit II. Fuel injection, 55s of ammo and Minengeschoss are also historically accurate, but because it gives Blue a gameplay advantage the E4 should be limited. On that basis I'd argue that the E3 should also be limited, as it has cannon.

And this is the crux. When historical accuracy gives blue an advantage they say 'Ah, well, historical accuracy means it's fair......' and Red just put up with it.

When FM accuracy gives Red an advantage, Blue shout 'Gameplay unfairness! Gameplay unfairness! Taking my ball home!' and Red just put up with mission changes to suit the Luftwhiners.

This still doesn't answer the question as to why Red Flyers stay when disadvantaged whereas Blue pilots leave when disadvantaged though. In general I mean, not just this bug of 10 v none in the new mission.

Its the same with flying the mission at dawn. Blue leave, Red stay. Why?


Edit: On the subject of flying for Blue, I will offline, with English markings, in a captured aircraft for flight and gunnery evaluation. Otherwise not by the Beard of my Son, mate! :)

[ATAG_Colander]

But it looks as though the Blue chaps get their way again, because the limit is now at 5 and 5, as per Colander's post, rather than 10 and 10 as per Wolf's post.

Dutch,

I think I didn't explain my self...

I did not touch the available quantities only corrected the bug which was basically adding another IIa every time an E4 landed or was destroyed.
This was causing E4's to disappear from the map and the IIa's to duplicate.

I think Wolf 10/10 change was done in the modified mission that is currently on server 2. This mission, once tested, will make it to server 1.

Colander.

[Dutch]

Dutch,

I think I didn't explain my self...

I did not touch the available quantities only corrected the bug which was basically adding another IIa every time an E4 landed or was destroyed.
This was causing E4's to disappear from the map and the IIa's to duplicate.

I think Wolf 10/10 change was done in the modified mission that is currently on server 2. This mission, once tested, will make it to server 1.

Colander.

Ah, thanks Colander, I must've missed/confused that in the heat of the moment. Looking forward to it. :Grin:

[CanvasKnight]

I keep hearing the whole "109s have 55 seconds of ammo" thing. The E-3/E-4 have about 6 seconds before they run out of ammo with their 20mm cannons. Once the cannon ammo is gone, they have no real firepower. The remaining 50 seconds of machine gun ammo is really only for self defense at that point - no sane 109 pilot is going to stay in the area and continue fighting anybody with just two 7.92mm guns left. Just thought I should point that out. With an E-4 you can milk those six seconds for multiple kills since the M-Geschoss is so much more effective, but with an E-3 its much harder to bring them down. It takes skill to be able to get the required hits in to bring down a plane with so little ammo. It's almost like using the 30mm Mk108 cannons in a K-4. Yeah, they are powerful, but it sure as hell wasn't easy learning to shoot it with only 6-7 seconds of ammo. Only the top shooters are going to be having any real repeat successes with these cannon armed Es.

My 02 cents. Otherwise, I agree with a lot of what is being said. Just not the ammo thing. You've got to be kidding me with that. I've shot down a few people with just the two nose guns, but it was not easy.

And I'm going to pretend that I didn't read anything about limiting the E-3.

[ATAG_Colander]

We should make one mission where both sides have all the planes available. I mean ALL.
It would be nice to see two things:
1.- How many jump in a IIa and how many chose other plane
2.- How the mission goes with "all things equal"

:)

Colander.

[CanvasKnight]

So where is Dullahan? He comes in here and the new guy asked a question and he leaves.

I still am doing this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm81LSKJC2k

I don't really get it. What exactly do you want me to say? I don't like participating in arguments about the various side biases - it goes nowhere. Nobody is going to change their mind no matter what either side says. Sorta like politics. Those are the sort of discussions that are best left out of the dinner conversation.

"We all like to be offended..." - Fyodor Dostoyevsky

Unfortunately for a certain Russian author's insightful observation into the human psyche, prefer not to be, so... I try to minimize my profile during these kinds of things. Besides, I've heard these arguments hundreds of times before over the years in Warclouds and Warbirds of Prey forums. They whine about the exact same things, just substitute "Spit IIa" for "Fw-190D-9" and "Bf-109E" for "P-51D." I'm not really going to get anything out of participating much further in a planeset discussion, I think.

[ATAG_Colander]

Since we are using quotes...

There are no facts, only interpretations.
Nietzsche

:)

[ATAG_Septic]

Hi Chaps,

I'd just like to share my observation that this discussion, with the possible exception of my rant above, and despite it's controversial subject, has remained polite and reasonable. Isn't that great! :-)

Other than the SpitIIa/E4 contention the question of team tactics and teamspeak has been remarked upon, and I generally agree with observations above but being able to play the game at all hours I notice distinct fluctuations in game-play during different time zones. I'm not saying one time-zone is better or worse, it's just the influx of players in the zone's early evenings often changes the whole atmosphere. Last night, or the night before, or was it this morning, I had a great time flying Blue. The organisation was honestly better than anything I've heard on Red general channel. Fighters and bombers coordinating, mutual protection, self-sacrifice, humour, diversions, people prepared to lead and or follow a little, it was brilliant fun.

Thanks Chaps.

Septic.

[Doc]

I don't really get it. What exactly do you want me to say?

Just given ya a hard time mate!! This is what people passions are here.

I haven't enjoyed myself around a bunch of virtual pilots in my life. Too bad we all live so far away. We could just arm wrestle and settle it like gentlemen. I'm pretty sure I could take'em to.

:bgsmile:

[Recoilfx]

Eh? Why not?? They still have neg G cutout. We still have to invert and follow, also as per real life. We also only have 15s of ammo as per real life.

I know fuel injection is historically accurate. I know some of the gun stuff. What I'm trying to say is that Red team have a few inherent disadvantages as per real life in addition to the ridiculously 'porked' FM of the Spits apart from the IIa. Before you say 'Well just fly the Rotol Hurri' the handling characteristics are totally different to the Spits'.

Trouble is, there are issues in the FM for the Blue a/c too, as well as historical ones. It's already known that the IIa and the Rotol Hurri are the most accurate FMs in the game but for ceiling, so why don't Blue scream for the Rotol Hurri to be limited too? It performs better against the 109s than it should, but not so much as to disadvantage the 109s on a gameplay level , is the answer. If it did, Blue would take their ball home and refuse to play with the Rotol Hurri too, because this is a gameplay issue not a historical one, unless of course it suits the Blues, as with minengeschoss.

In other words, the FMs of the IIa and Rotol Hurri are 'Historically Accurate', but if historical accuracy gives a gameplay advantage over Blue it has to be limited as with Spit II. Fuel injection, 55s of ammo and Minengeschoss are also historically accurate, but because it gives Blue a gameplay advantage the E4 should be limited. On that basis I'd argue that the E3 should also be limited, as it has cannon.

And this is the crux. When historical accuracy gives blue an advantage they say 'Ah, well, historical accuracy means it's fair......' and Red just put up with it.

When FM accuracy gives Red an advantage, Blue shout 'Gameplay unfairness! Gameplay unfairness! Taking my ball home!' and Red just put up with mission changes to suit the Luftwhiners.

This still doesn't answer the question as to why Red Flyers stay when disadvantaged whereas Blue pilots leave when disadvantaged though. In general I mean, not just this bug of 10 v none in the new mission.

Its the same with flying the mission at dawn. Blue leave, Red stay. Why?


Edit: On the subject of flying for Blue, I will offline, with English markings, in a captured aircraft for flight and gunnery evaluation. Otherwise not by the Beard of my Son, mate! :)


I'm not sure where you are going with this.... You seem to have taken on one little point I made and ran with it (historical accuracy and whining).

109 CONTROLS the fight when flown correctly against the Spit Ia and Hurri.. No contest about that. But it takes a lot of skill to fly it at that level and can still be taken down at slightest mistake because 109s are unforgiving with turns and gunnery.

Like I have said before, if you really believe e1 & e3 can easily outfly against hurri and spit Ia that much, you should try it - see how difficult it is to exploit its potential and how easy it is to make a mistake. That said, Spit Ia's FM needs to be improved, I don't think anyone has ever contested that.

However, Spit IIa overpowers every plane in the game by a significant amount - in much more serious way than E1 & E3 vs Rotol and Spit Ia. You can't bunt away from Spit IIa by a meaningful amount because it's that much faster once the 109 has to levels off.

Ok to summarize everything again.
E1 & E3 vs Rotol & Spit Ia. 109 can win if the pilot controls it well enough, but Brits still have a fighting chance.

Spit IIa vs anything. Game over. E4 is the best bet if the 109 can get shots within the first two turns.

Yes, a bad pilot in a Spitt IIa will not win, but it takes an exceptional 109 pilot to overcome even a crappy Spit IIa pilot.

Side minor point: the neg g effect, the devs changed the onset of merlin cut out. Before the first few patches, the merlins would sneeze at .5 g and cuts out below .25g. They changed it afterwards because people were 'confused':
See: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/archive/index.php/t-21452.html
Same with the bouncing needles.

[Dutch]

Spit IIa vs anything. Game over.
Yes, a bad pilot in a Spitt IIa will not win, but it takes an exceptional 109 pilot to overcome even a crappy Spit IIa pilot.


Well I'll have to take your word for it, because since the day the game was released, I haven't had the opportunity to try out this theory properly online, as at first it was banned because of Blue Moaning, and now it's limited because of Blue Moaning.

Moan, whine, moan. Since day one. Whereas the Red blokes just get on with it in their porked Ias or energy bleeding Hurris.

So who's the 'Ace Pilot'? The one in the crap plane who wins, or the one in the better plane who wins?

I know who my money's on.

[Dutch]

And I'm going to pretend that I didn't read anything about limiting the E-3.

Why? It gives blue a gameplay advantage. Red have only 15s of 8x .303 in total. The E3 has what? 6s of 2x 20mm cannon fire plus 55s of 2x7.92mm?

[Recoilfx]

Well I'll have to take your word for it, because since the day the game was released, I haven't had the opportunity to try out this theory properly online, as at first it was banned because of Blue Moaning, and now it's limited because of Blue Moaning.

Moan, whine, moan. Since day one. Whereas the Red blokes just get on with it in their porked Ias or energy bleeding Hurris.

So who's the 'Ace Pilot'? The one in the crap plane who wins, or the one in the better plane who wins?

I know who my money's on.

Dutch, there are other servers with Spit IIas enabled - even though they are dog fight servers with labels on (ravenhost). Try it. Learn it. Also fly the 109s for a while. The opportunity has always been available for you to discover.

I don't think I have whined. In fact, I am more than willing to take on the Spit-IIa with the E4s even though the E4s are inferior. I am willing to take the chance with E4's firepower.

People left not because of a singular reason (Spit IIa), people left because there were also no E4s - I don't know how many times I have said that. That's not whining, that's not wasting time.

[Recoilfx]

Why? It gives blue a gameplay advantage. Red have only 15s of 8x .303 in total. The E3 has what? 6s of 2x 20mm cannon fire plus 55s of 2x7.92mm?

Dutch, try gunnery with E3. It's really not that easy. I have listed all the reasons why E3 is a very hard gun platform, but I'll detail more here:

1.) Different velocities for ammunition. Deflection shots are never really made with convergence. You either aim with your cannons or your 2 puny machine guns.

2.) Rate of fire is very low. Much much harder land hits using to slashing attacks.

3.) Exit velocity of the canons are so slow that any hard deflection shots are made without seeing the target in sight (you have to pull hard momentarily to get ahead of the target, making the target hidden behind your cockpit and pray and spray the rounds hoping they'll hit. Rinse, repeat, while burning your energy).

4.) Machine gun tracers are almost non-existent for 109s compare to the brits.

5.) Small gun sight. You must move a lot more with your head to keep the gun sight within the small glass.

6.) Smoke tracers for the canons makes it harder to see where the rounds went.

7.) The Canons make the E3 climb worse than the E1, robbing it's potent strategic performance.

8.) Unless you have really lucky shots, 2 machine guns can only do real damage if you land sustained shots in close quarters.

[Dutch]

Dutch, there are other servers with Spit IIas enabled - even though they are dog fight servers with labels on (ravenhost). Try it. Learn it. Also fly the 109s for a while. The opportunity has always been available for you to discover.

People left not because of a singular reason (Spit IIa), people left because there were also no E4s - I don't know how many times I have said that. That's not whining, that's not wasting time.

I take your point re other servers, but 'dogfight with labels' says it all. Maybe it's the people who do fly these servers who're bringing their values to the ATAG server and leave because it's a bit dark, there are Spit IIs, or they can't have their big exploding cannonshells. I'm not entirely devoid of stick time in fighters by the way, so the bit about 'opportunity to discover' is more than slightly patronising. I'm a bit out of practice though, I'll admit.

Leaving because there are no E4s is just as bad as leaving because of the Spit II, if not worse, and only emphasises my point of primadonnas taking their ball home (sorry about the mixed metaphor there:)). 'I want my big guns and if I can't have them I'm not playing!'

As a counter suggestion, maybe all the people who exclusively fly Blue Fighters but leave the server if the mission isn't set up exactly as they want, should try flying bombers instead of leaving the server once in a while. Forget about the Knights Cross with all it's dangly bits and the 'Celebrity Status' that goes with it. Go help Keller, Septic, Doc, Fastfed and Borris to actually address the mission objectives instead of stomping off like spoiled kids. In a bomber it makes no difference what type of fighter shoots you down.

Flying a bomber might teach a few people what the word 'vulnerability' means too, and may also help explain why I find this whole issue so childish. It's like listening to two kids at the dinner table; 'You've got more peas than me!' 'Well, you've got more carrots' 'Waaaah, MUUUUM!'

Unfortunately, I appear to have got myself embroiled in the peas versus carrots debate, something I usually avoid.

But you still haven't explained why Blue leave because it's dark, or is it because it's dark with no E4s, or dark with too many Spit IIs?

The point is; Why do Blue leave at all, for any of the above reasons?

And just as importantly; why do red stay, regardless of planeset disadvantages?

This was the original question Snapper brought up for discussion. When Red feel disadvantaged by the planeset, they carry on regardless. When Blue feel disadvantaged by the planeset (or the time of day, which is the same for both sides), they leave the server and post complaints.

Why is there a difference?

[Recoilfx]

I take your point re other servers, but 'dogfight with labels' says it all. Maybe it's the people who do fly these servers who're bringing their values to the ATAG server and leave because it's a bit dark, there are Spit IIs, or they can't have their big exploding cannonshells. I'm not entirely devoid of stick time in fighters by the way, so the bit about 'opportunity to discover' is more than slightly patronising. I'm a bit out of practice though, I'll admit.

Leaving because there are no E4s is just as bad as leaving because of the Spit II, if not worse, and only emphasises my point of primadonnas taking their ball home (sorry about the mixed metaphor there:)). 'I want my big guns and if I can't have them I'm not playing!'

As a counter suggestion, maybe all the people who exclusively fly Blue Fighters but leave the server if the mission isn't set up exactly as they want, should try flying bombers instead of leaving the server once in a while. Forget about the Knights Cross with all it's dangly bits and the 'Celebrity Status' that goes with it. Go help Keller, Septic, Doc, Fastfed and Borris to actually address the mission objectives instead of stomping off like spoiled kids. In a bomber it makes no difference what type of fighter shoots you down.

Flying a bomber might teach a few people what the word 'vulnerability' means too, and may also help explain why I find this whole issue so childish. It's like listening to two kids at the dinner table; 'You've got more peas than me!' 'Well, you've got more carrots' 'Waaaah, MUUUUM!'

Unfortunately, I appear to have got myself embroiled in the peas versus carrots debate, something I usually avoid.

But you still haven't explained why Blue leave because it's dark, or is it because it's dark with no E4s, or dark with too many Spit IIs?

The point is; Why do Blue leave at all, for any of the above reasons?

And just as importantly; why do red stay, regardless of planeset disadvantages?

This was the original question Snapper brought up for discussion. When Red feel disadvantaged by the planeset, they carry on regardless. When Blue feel disadvantaged by the planeset (or the time of day, which is the same for both sides), they leave the server and post complaints.

Why is there a difference?

Well that's just not fair. It's a pretty one sided observation. No, I am not a bomber pilot, but that doesn't mean I don't take a 110 every once a while. Some people complain about it being dark, but I do take the 110s to raid the ship when it's pitch black till it gets lighter.

Why such attitude to dog fight servers? Are they really that bad that you can't go there just have some practice gunnery every once a while? Why are you conjecturing that the existence dog fight servers somehow brings in 'bad-manner' pilots to ATAG? My point was that you could get a taste of performance differences for all air crafts - then you started to run with dog fight vs realism.

I have said again and again, I don't know how many times I have to say it again. Having Spit IIa and no E4 is like on the level of i-16 vs 109, and you can't fault if some blue fighters leave. What else can they do? Join the red side to create even more in-balance? I will carry on even with sub plane set with e4 vs spit IIa. Is that whining?

I have at times switch over to the reds when the reds are overwhelmed (however rare that is), same with other many blue pilots. But then why are we blues almost always out numbered? Why don't more reds switch to blue and also, enjoy what red pilots say is a crazy good plane? Perhaps it's not that easy to fly well?
We'd love more company too!

Let me answer your bolded question again:
Reds stuck around because e1 & e3 vs Rotol and Hurri is still somewhat competitive.
Blues don't stick around because there is not contest when it's Spit IIa vs e1 & e4 with no E4s.

It has nothing to do with pilot's integrity - You won't see many red pilots if somehow 109Fs are available - because 109Fs will utterly crush anything that Brits have to offer, just as the Spit IIa will crush the E1 & E3.

[Dutch]

Now Recoil, I wasn't referring to you personally, it was a generalisation of what appears to be the way of things with the Blue side from where I'm sitting, and what I'd recommend as an alternative to leaving the server.

I offered an hypothesis as to why there's a difference in attitude, you've gone down the route of analyzing gunnery and FMs.

But gunnery and FMs don't explain the difference in attitude. So what do you think explains it?

[Recoilfx]

Now Recoil, I wasn't referring to you personally, it was a generalisation of what appears to be the way of things with the Blue side from where I'm sitting, and what I'd recommend as an alternative to leaving the server.

I offered an hypothesis as to why there's a difference in attitude, you've gone down the route of analyzing gunnery and FMs.

But gunnery and FMs don't explain the difference in attitude. So what do you think explains it?

I've already explained it: Give one side an overwhelmingly clear advantage, the other side will start leaving.

There is no inherent difference between attitudes of blue and red pilots, and you can't say the side that left is whining, in the case of this mission (which used to be bugged).

Also, the whole thing about FM and gunnery is to illustrate why Spit IIa has overwhelmingly better advantages than e1 & e3.

[Dutch]

Well I suppose you're right in one thing. Until I go fly Blue for a bit and you go fly Red for a bit neither of us will have a true perspective on the other's point of view.

But I've said my piece, someone elses turn I believe. :salute:

P.S. I don't think you'd see any Red pilots leaving as a result of the 109F, because a)it would depend on the accuracy of the FM relative to the rest of the planeset and b) Because the regular Red pilots don't have that attitude. ;)

[CanvasKnight]

Well I suppose you're right in one thing. Until I go fly Blue for a bit and you go fly Red for a bit neither of us will have a true perspective on the other's point of view.

But I've said my piece, someone elses turn I believe. :salute:

P.S. I don't think you'd see any Red pilots leaving as a result of the 109F, because a)it would depend on the accuracy of the FM relative to the rest of the planeset and b) Because the regular Red pilots don't have that attitude. ;)

While I agree with your sentiments, you've lost me once you tried to stereotype the entire Blue team just because they are your enemies and you never fly with them. That's not cool. People are people are people. There is no inherent difference between "red team" and "blue team" attitudes. There may be a difference between certain individuals but not the teams as a whole. That's one truth that carries over from every flight sim server.

Basically, what I'm saying is that you are making a huge and unfair jump to your conclusion that Blue team is a bunch of "primadonnas" who will leave if they don't have their E-4 or there are too many Spit IIas in the air. What are you basing that conclusion on? A couple of posts in this forum by some whiner individuals who are throwing temper tantrums and saying that they simply won't fly against a Spit IIa? What about the rest of us? What about somebody like me who fears no Spit II? I'll take my E-3 into combat with one without hesitation, and once I learn and adapt to this new theater of war, I'll probably win too. I've overcome much harder planeset disadvantages in the past. I was the kind of masochist who flew the P-51D before the patch made it easy to fly, who exclusively flew the Bf-109G-6 early against the late 44 western allied planeset on Warclouds, and took the Ki-43-II against the mid-late war American planeset's 150 km/h faster P-38 on Zekes vs Wildcats. This BoB planeset is cake compared to that.

But I understand the need to whine. Yes, both sides are at a disadvantage, but neither is insurmountable. It's still not easy, and sometimes people need to get it out. The only danger is that by repeating it in their heads, they are defeating themselves before the fight has even started. If you are in a Hurricane and see a Bf-109 and automatically assume "oh man, he's completely better than me, there is no way I can win" you have defeated yourself before the fight even started. That feeling of dread you have when you see a 109? That's fear. If you are a Bf-109E pilot and you see the split bottom of a Spit IIa and automatically think "oh man, I have absolutely no chance to win against this thing" then you've already beaten yourself before he did! That sinking feeling you got in your gut when you saw it was a Spit II? That's fear. You can't let that decide your fights for you. Any of these disadvantages can be easily overcome with careful tactics and skill. You should fight, make mistakes, and lose, but you will also start to learn from it, adapt, and eventually you will win. At the end of that bloody road, you'll be a MUCH better pilot than if you had quit, or wasted all of your energy complaining about it. I firmly believe this, from my own experiences in Il-2. I know that this sounds like a corny pep speech, but it's not. It's the truth. From my perspective anyway.

Sorry for the rant, nothing personal, not trying to direct it at you, most of it was just in general.

[CanvasKnight]

Oh, and recoilfx is right. The E-3 is much harder to fly than the E-4, which has automation to assist the pilot with his CEM, along with the better cannons.

[Dutch]

Here's the part I don't understand:

1) In-game all 109 models are 13 mph faster than the Hurricane Rotol and 33 mph faster than the Spitfire I and Spitfire Ia.

2) In-game the Spitfire IIa is 27 mph faster than all models of the 109.

Red pilots are not "driven off" in situation (1), but Blue pilots are driven off in situation (2).

Why is this?

If and when the FM's are corrected will the smaller increase in Vmax for the 109 models be enough to retain Blue pilots for when the Spitfire I's and Ia's are corrected to a whopping 43 mph increase in Vmax? Or will the Blue pilots leave in droves unless the Red plane set is restricted to just Hurricane Rotols and DH5-20's?

EDIT: This is assuming there will be a correction in flight models. To date, I have seen no acknowledgement from Luthier or Black Six that these will be. AFAIK, they are content with the flight modelling as is and no correction is slated to be done. When I asked Black Six in the 1C Forum about the fuel issue for RAF fighters (ie no overboost to 12 lbs) he was unaware of any issue; he never gave a direct answer to a direct question.

I realize the issue of flight modelling correction for ALL fighter aircraft (Red and Blue) has been put forward in the new Bugtracker report. No answer at this time whether it will be addressed or not. It would be premature to assume any consideration will be given to this aspect of the sim.

Dullahan, it ain't just me. This is how the question was posed, I've bolded the question part.
I offered a hypothetical explanation as to the reason why. The rest of the thread was then sidetracked a little.
So how would you respond to Snapper's question? As I've said, I've said enough already.

[Doc]

Heh

You convincing Dutch to fly blue.

Union Jack

That's all you need to know.

:bgsmile:

[Dutch]

622

:bgsmile:

Heh, heh! Nuff Sed.

[CanvasKnight]

First, to all the whiners on both sides, your 10-35 mph speed differences don't impress me at all. What would you do if you were flying in the Pacific and you had to deal with a 95 mph speed difference between the top killing American Pacific fighter (P-38) and your JAAF Ki-43-II? That's the environment I came from. You guys have it good. You've been spoiled! Back in my day I had to climb uphill to school in the morning on Zekes vs Wildcats, and then climb uphill again to get back home again in the evening! I took the stalk and ambush tactics I had learned in the P-51 and Bf-109 on the western front, and perfected them in the Pacific in the Ki-43-II, catching the most difficult and rewarding prey possible - a prop fighter so fast that he was impossible to lure into a dogfight, and if I didn't kill him in the first burst every time with my 2 machine guns, I wouldn't get another chance since all he had to do was keep flying straight! Spit IIa? Bah! Bf-109E? Bah humbug!

:bgsmile:


And Dutch, my answer to your (and Snapper's bolded) question:
You both claim that blue pilots are driven off. I don't see that. I saw one or two people post in the forums saying as much. Or if they didn't say they'd leave altogether, they said they would switch teams and fly Red just to fly the Spit II rather than face it, which is just as dumb. But the rest of us, the VAST majority of the blue team, don't care if you have Spit IIs or not. We'll still take to the air and fight you.

And don't tell me that nobody on the red team has ever done the same and got fed up and left because they thought their plane was the problem. That scenario happens all the time for both sides, no matter what theater you are in. The reason this discussion REALLY started, was because of a bug in that mission that made it so that if a Bf-109E-4 landed, it reduced the E-4 limit, and added +1 to the Spit II limit, which is why there were 10 Spit IIs and no E-4s, despite there being a 5 plane limit for each on that map. Are you telling me that no red pilots would have had a problem and left if the map had been 10 E-4s vs no Spit IIs?


You also didn't answer my concern, which mostly had to do with the fact that you are repeatedly making an insulting stereotyped generalization (whiners, primadonnas, no teamwork, only care about celebrity, in your own words) about all of the people who fly Blue simply because of your side bias and your experience with a handful of vocal high profile individuals. That's the only thing that I have a problem with. Otherwise, I generally agree with everything that is being said here.

It's not a big deal anyway, it's just a forum discussion. It doesn't really bother me, so nothing personal. I just think that you wouldn't like it much if a Blue player came on and started making sweeping generalizations about Red team either, so if you are talking about fairness, then you should be fair too.

S!:salute:

[ATAG_Colander]

I'm starting to see this thread as having the potential to slowly turn into a banana forums "name calling" war.

Colander.

[ATAG_Knuckles]

Hey guys my sister is looking for a date : I can set you up

Just P.M. me, trust me she's ahhh errr real nice

623

[ATAG_Knuckles]

Borris and Keller last night after bombing the radar Station near Littlestone


624

[Dutch]

the VAST majority of the blue team, don't care if you have Spit IIs or not.

Now I heard that bit ok ! :Grin:

But seriously folks, please don't anyone be offended by anything I've posted in this thread. If we were face to face you'd have seen the friendly smile on my face as all this debate swung around and around.

I do have a problem with people taking things too seriously though. It is a 'game' after all! I admit that sometimes my humourously intended banter comes across as a little abrasive.

But that's the way we peculiarly accented Northern English types operate, for good or ill.

Best thing is, we all love to play this game, and long may it continue. :happy

(I do wish there was a better 'wink' symbol available!)

[ATAG_Snapper]

I'm starting to see this thread as having the potential to slowly turn into a banana forums "name calling" war.

Colander.

You're right. Shutting down the thread.

@Dullahan: My question had nothing to do whatsoever about a one-off mission that was bugged in that no E4's were enabled vs 10 Spitfire IIa's. Recoilfx kept referring to that recent unfortunate SINGLE incident and ignored Dutch's efforts to get past that. You likewise erroneously base your thread on that one bugged (and since corrected) mission -- one that I never had the opportunity to even fly. I only heard about it on this forum from Little D and hc_wolf got on it.

You've joined us this month, you've clearly missed a lot of history on this forum regarding the Blue side's visceral reaction to the Spitfire IIa's inclusion in the planeset. And we're pretty civilised over here. I DARE you to over to 1C and start a thread to the effect, "What's the big deal with the Spit IIa? You guys just need to fly smarter" Or something like that. If the mods don't intervene quickly enough, you're gonna meet a whole bunch of Blue pilots you never dreamed existed! They won't share your views (as admirable as they are), but you will get to experience a very quick review on the attitude question.

As Colander said, this thread is going that way in a mild way. Feel free to PM me as I'm sure you may wish to. I can fill you in with specifics, but there's no good that can come from reopening old wounds here.

Snapper