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Donathin
Nov-18-2014, 11:25
Could someone please explain how the XP system functions in BoS? What is the relationship between XP and Unlocks?

bongodriver
Nov-18-2014, 14:09
Something like gain XP and spend it on unlocks I think, but I still haven't bothered playing, completely lost interest.

ATAG_Colander
Nov-18-2014, 14:19
"The XP Factor" Isn't that a TV show? :)

Donathin
Nov-18-2014, 14:29
Understanding the XP Factor is necessary to estimate the real cost of the game. The down payment on full game seems to be $100.

1lokos
Nov-18-2014, 14:36
Every unlockable item or skin cost "xxx" XP.

A successfully accomplished mission give you some amount of XP - with bonus for landings and destroy extra targets - so you need "collect" XP to earn unlocks., what is possible only playing the SP Campaign, but connected to Internet.

See Ju87 "unlockables" tree - siren, gun pod, skins and "fantasy" weapons (on Stalingrad) like 1800 kg bomb or Bk 37 cannon.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7693-0-31935600-1390557628.jpg

The He 111 appear as unlockable be Ju 87 due the "Two Free Planes" DVD Russian only version (will cost ~12$). For founders is not locked.

Unlocks prevents MP? No, all planes have this basic leadout, only fighters are prevented to do "Jabo" missions - what in the small online environment is not bad,
only makes necessary the use of suitable aircraft like attack or level bombers.
What momentarily avoid such bizarre gamey situations like in CloD where the best anti ship plane is a BF 109 with 4 50kg bombs... or the Ju 88 2000kg skip bombing in il-2'46.

1lokos
Nov-18-2014, 15:00
The down payment on full game seems to be $100.

Why not start with 60$ version?

None Fw 190 or La 5 (20$ each) is a game changer, unless you are a big fan of one or other (or both).

Donathin
Nov-18-2014, 15:35
My interest in this game is in understanding the delivery systems surrounding the game: PR, various forms of advertising and methods that might be used to control free exchange of ideas. The true full cost of the game would seem to be the same whether you start with a $60 down payment or $100. If you slog through the unlocks how much do you feel your time is worth? If you could, on the other hand, purchase enough XP to acquire everything available as unlocks what would your total dollar cost be?

JG4_sKylon
Nov-18-2014, 16:46
There is no purchase of XP. You fly single player, you get XP for it.

Donathin
Nov-18-2014, 16:52
There is no purchase of XP. You fly single player, you get XP for it.

How reliably is XP recorded? Can unlocks be purchased?

JG4_sKylon
Nov-18-2014, 16:58
How reliably is XP recorded?

Can´t answer that, i don´t play the game.


Can unlocks be purchased?

No.

Donathin
Nov-18-2014, 18:30
Can´t answer that, i don´t play the game.



No.

Aren't the premium planes unlocks that you buy for $20 each?

Foul Ole Ron
Nov-18-2014, 18:37
Aren't the premium planes unlocks that you buy for $20 each?

The premium planes can't be unlocked as it clearly states when describing the two purchasing options.

Donathin
Nov-18-2014, 18:44
The premium planes can't be unlocked as it clearly states when describing the two purchasing options.

I understand what you two are saying. The issue is whether you are describing a distinction without a difference. We are discussing a marketing scheme.

1lokos
Nov-18-2014, 18:49
Premium planes, Fw 190 and La5 (20$ each) is basically the difference between Standard and Premium versions of the game.

But these planes cost equals for both versions, 40$ - include in Premium or buy individual for Standard. And have his "unlock" tree:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_05_2014/post-7693-0-82440700-1400848947.png
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/page-2

Will be possible to buy unlocks in the future? A opinion:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4037462/Re:_Battle_of_Stalingrad_revie#Post4037462

ATAG_Colander
Nov-18-2014, 19:06
Aren't all these questions better to be made on the official forum so an official answer is received?

Donathin
Nov-18-2014, 19:41
Premium planes, Fw 190 and La5 (20$ each) is basically the difference between Standard and Premium versions of the game.

But these planes cost equals for both versions, 40$ - include in Premium or buy individual for Standard. And have his "unlock" tree:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_05_2014/post-7693-0-82440700-1400848947.png
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/page-2

Will be possible to buy unlocks in the future? A opinion:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4037462/Re:_Battle_of_Stalingrad_revie#Post4037462

Thanks. Yes, that is an excellent thread. There seems no reason why each unlock could not eventually be monetized. In such a scenario early adopters would tend to pay the most. There are associated issues. If I were to choose to slog through the grind rather than buy unlocks outright how reliable is the XP recording system? I can imagine spending hours slogging through a mission repeatedly because of problems with a server or because the game crashed. Similarly, I would be more willing to slog it out if the campaign were inherently interesting and included interesting historical content. With a tedious, boring campaign I would be more apt to surrender and just buy the unlocks I wanted. Even if there were a mission editor could missions be freely traded or would some form of server approval be required?

Arthursmedley
Nov-18-2014, 20:03
Aren't all these questions better to be made on the official forum so an official answer is received?




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIKA101zABg

Donathin
Nov-18-2014, 20:33
Aren't all these questions better to be made on the official forum so an official answer is received?

I present you The Rynok Attack...(threads).

WavingWhiteFlag[AM]
Nov-19-2014, 01:06
What exactly are you trying to get from this thread? You already knew the answers to your questions before you asked them.

Foul Ole Ron
Nov-19-2014, 03:53
All part of his "cunning" plan to have a pop at the game by asking questions that he pretends he doesn't know where the discussion will go. If somebody wants to criticise a game they should have the stones to just say it plainly.

Dakpilot
Nov-19-2014, 04:27
All part of his "cunning" plan to have a pop at the game by asking questions that he pretends he doesn't know where the discussion will go. If somebody wants to criticise a game they should have the stones to just say it plainly.

It is quite obvious this site (and the BoS section specifically) is being "played' by someone who has a very obvious (but subtly delivered) agenda

Cheers Dakpilot

Ohms
Nov-19-2014, 06:09
It is quite obvious this site (and the BoS section specifically) is being "played' by someone who has a very obvious (but subtly delivered) agenda

Cheers Dakpilot

Dak are you saying that this site and this BOS forum is only here to bash BOS because we have a hidden or in your opinion not so hidden vendetta? This site and Simhq have threads about what people like and dislike about BOS because the official site is very tightly controlled for good or bad. I agree with you that some people ask questions they may know the answer too just to create a fuss but to imply that this is planned by ATAG Is just ridiculous in my opinion. Free speak is allowed now matter how you or I like what is being said as long as it does not personal. You like BOS and that's great I have now problem with that but others don't or have issues with certain aspects, we should also have no problem with that also.

Hood
Nov-19-2014, 06:16
Dak are you saying that this site and this BOS forum is only here to bash BOS...

For what it's worth my interpretation is that he is saying the problem is how an individual is using this site and the BOS section in particular, not that any agenda is being fomented by ATAG.

I do disagree that the agenda is being "subtly delivered" though. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Hood

Dakpilot
Nov-19-2014, 06:35
Dak are you saying that this site and this BOS forum is only here to bash BOS because we have a hidden or in your opinion not so hidden vendetta? This site and Simhq have threads about what people like and dislike about BOS because the official site is very tightly controlled for good or bad. I agree with you that some people ask questions they may know the answer too just to create a fuss but to imply that this is planned by ATAG Is just ridiculous in my opinion. Free speak is allowed now matter how you or I like what is being said as long as it does not personal. You like BOS and that's great I have now problem with that but others don't or have issues with certain aspects, we should also have no problem with that also.

Please read my post again, I in no way say that THIS site has some agenda, or that it is planned by ATAG and I agree that it is ridiculous to take that from my post

^^It is quite obvious this site (and the BoS section specifically) is being "played' by someone who has a very obvious (but subtly delivered) agenda^^

This person has registered here solely for the purpose of starting threads to which mostly he has the answers to, and usually on subjects done to death everywhere else, unlike most people who have been on flight sim forums for a number of years (as the original poster admits to) people usually use the same/similar tag

I totally agree to free speech and am NOT saying that the ATAG BoS section is only for bashing all I am doing is insinuating that, which other members have already said.

There is a difference to complaining about features/game decisions that are disliked (and I dislike many) and "stirring' to generate discord, especially when that is seemingly ones sole intention

Please accept my apology if I in any way suggested that ATAG was behind any of this, perhaps my English was bad but I cannot see how that could be taken from my post

Cheers Dakpilot

Ohms
Nov-19-2014, 07:25
Dak you are correct i miss understood your post, please accept my apology. Should not read forums until I am fully awake.

Dakpilot
Nov-19-2014, 07:54
No worries Ohms, it is something many have done , including myself

Cheers Dakpilot

ATAG_Lolsav
Nov-19-2014, 07:58
Dak you are correct i miss understood your post, please accept my apology. Should not read forums until I am fully awake.

https://www.damballa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/slap.gif

Archie
Nov-19-2014, 09:05
There seems to be agendas on both sides. Lets not forget some people might actually be getting paid to be here...
;)

Donathin
Nov-19-2014, 09:09
My interest in this game is in understanding the delivery systems surrounding the game: PR, various forms of advertising and methods that might be used to control free exchange of ideas. The true full cost of the game would seem to be the same whether you start with a $60 down payment or $100. If you slog through the unlocks how much do you feel your time is worth? If you could, on the other hand, purchase enough XP to acquire everything available as unlocks what would your total dollar cost be?

I have described my interest in the game. I view flight games as commercial products. My observation is that when individuals become too heavily invested in a product they begin to display intolerance to other viewpoints. This results in avoiding discussion of issues by resorting to personal attacks. It is a smoke screen designed to divert attention from subjects they view as "third rail". Once a "third rail" issue is identified you are not going to get a meaningful discussion of it at an official website. In context of game sales "third rail" issues are ANY whose mention might cause potential buyers to "wait and see" rather than to buy in immediately. In this instance rather than address the possibilities of a future monetization program for "unlocks" a group attacks the motive for raising the issue. If reasons for one's interest in a product are volunteered at the outset why is there need to search for a hidden agenda?
It is point-counterpoint that gives life to discussion. It is intolerance resulting in ready resort to "straw man" arguments including personal attacks that seems more a blight/plague than hidden agendas.

ChiefRedCloud
Nov-19-2014, 09:16
There seems to be agendas on both sides. Lets not forget some people might actually be getting paid to be here...
;)

Agreed ..... :guilty:

Chief

Ohms
Nov-19-2014, 09:40
https://www.damballa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/slap.gif

So that's what the smell is!!!:goofy

1lokos
Nov-19-2014, 11:29
The "perfect XP" (if you are in Russia) - 499 rubles ~ 11$ (DVD only): :D

http://s28.postimg.org/5i5pnyjul/starter.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/8p097l4ah/full/)
upload image online (http://postimage.org/)

Archie
Nov-19-2014, 14:54
I'm sure the poor sods who paid $90 and still have to grind unlocks must be thrilled.

Revvin
Nov-19-2014, 15:10
It's things that that engenders the feeling of dishonesty from the developers. When the whole XP grind shitstorm erupted Jason Williams posted a poll on their forums asking for feedback but it seems XP is intrinsic to BoS to allow them to sell a version like this so what was the point of the poll? Just keep the masses quiet and buy some time because with this Russian release it seems clear they would never take the XP system out.

Archie
Nov-19-2014, 15:20
Revvin that's exactly what the poll was for.

Donathin
Nov-19-2014, 19:54
I would like to know how the developers are handling reviewer/press copies of BoS. Are members of the press forced to slog through the unlocks to review the game?

heinkill
Nov-20-2014, 10:37
I would like to know how the developers are handling reviewer/press copies of BoS. Are members of the press forced to slog through the unlocks to review the game?

Well, lets get a bit of perspective, every aircraft comes with default loadouts and skin. It's not like you can't review the aircraft DM/FM, graphics and game elements unless you unlock larger bombs, higher calibre weapons or a libyan desert skin. It's not like a reviewer would need to grind to unlock any of the aircraft, they are all unlocked by default in any except the Russian 2 plane version.

If reviewers don't like the unlocks, it is not because they unlock great new options for the player, it is usually in the context of a) being an unwanted but mandatory part of the single player game and b) forcing multiplayer players to do the single player campaign to unlock something as basic as a winter camouflage skin in a winter campaign.

H

LuseKofte
Nov-20-2014, 12:04
I'm sure the poor sods who paid $90 and still have to grind unlocks must be thrilled.

I enjoy a good single play once in a while, the whole thing is over dramatized as usual, and the rest are smuck about it. For me it is no problem and I bought two for 87 bucks each.
I does not care for all those skins, I only need winter skin.

Donathin
Nov-20-2014, 12:29
Well, lets get a bit of perspective, every aircraft comes with default loadouts and skin. It's not like you can't review the aircraft DM/FM, graphics and game elements unless you unlock larger bombs, higher calibre weapons or a libyan desert skin. It's not like a reviewer would need to grind to unlock any of the aircraft, they are all unlocked by default in any except the Russian 2 plane version.

If reviewers don't like the unlocks, it is not because they unlock great new options for the player, it is usually in the context of a) being an unwanted but mandatory part of the single player game and b) forcing multiplayer players to do the single player campaign to unlock something as basic as a winter camouflage skin in a winter campaign.

H

Thanks for responding. It is surprising to read that larger bombs and higher calibre weapons are locked to reviewers. So, as far as we know, no special reviewer-unlocked copies exist? BTW are BoS aircraft able to reach their historical service ceilings and speeds at altitude?

1lokos
Nov-20-2014, 13:20
Most "games sites" reviews - Eurogamer, Gameguru.ru, Games.mail.ru... - like the unlocks, because the "reviewer" are used to "games" and not used to "Flight Simulators" (AKA Combat Flight Game), and the best reference for then is War Thunder. One these reviewer in Russia play the the game for a month before write his conclusions.

Some curious (GT):

"In fairness, Battle of Stalingrad is not trying to pretend to be a simple game. High price (1.5 thousand (Rublo) for the regular version and 3.5 for de luxe) cuts random passengers, and the obligatory presence of joystick leave only tested pilots. And they certainly enjoyed it, and the rest can play War Thunder or hijack planes in Battlefield 4."

"IL-2" finally stopped pretending that he is interested in people unable to distinguish by eye Bf-109G2 from Bf-109F4."

Don't see like the "Dev's" have imagined... :D


BTW are BoS aircraft able to reach their historical service ceilings and speeds at altitude?

Better read there: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11664-fm-claims-respond/

Sokol1

Otyg
Nov-20-2014, 13:24
I enjoy a good single play once in a while, the whole thing is over dramatized as usual, and the rest are smuck about it. For me it is no problem and I bought two for 87 bucks each.
I does not care for all those skins, I only need winter skin.

I don't usually post in this section.
But I bought the gold edition in the beginning and I played it a bit at the start but the amount easily counted on one hand.
And now after the unlocks I will never play it. I don't mind item/xp grind in my games.
Console games that is. Like dark souls or zelda. But that's part of the character progression and that's the core of the games. In flight sims, not so much.
So I count the 90$ as "learning money" and lesson is learned and login/pw forgotten. Moving on.

And IMO almost every thread in this section is a way to stir up a shit storm. Happy to not be green or red in this sub.

Peace.

Edit. If I pay 90$ I would like to use the product the way I want and enjoy. If I want to play sp I play Nintendo-8bit or some other console.

Chivas
Nov-20-2014, 14:05
I've only bothered to fly BOS a few times, but don't regret my ninety dollar investment one bit. It was an investment in the future of combat flight sims. Hopefully BOS will be a WIP for many many years, pumping out theaters, content, and "options" I prefer to use. Especially the implementation of VR which has the huge potential to save the combat flight sim genre.

Constructive criticism of BOS is good, but spamming the forums with negativity only hurts the genre. I see a bright future with VR, COD, and DCS WW2. Hopefully BOS survives the negative spam better than the COD development did.

Donathin
Nov-20-2014, 14:32
Most "games sites" reviews - Eurogamer, Gameguru.ru, Games.mail.ru... - like the unlocks, because the "reviewer" are used to "games" and not used to "Flight Simulators" (AKA Combat Flight Game), and the best reference for then is War Thunder. One these reviewer in Russia play the the game for a month before write his conclusions.

Some curious (GT):

"In fairness, Battle of Stalingrad is not trying to pretend to be a simple game. High price (1.5 thousand (Rublo) for the regular version and 3.5 for de luxe) cuts random passengers, and the obligatory presence of joystick leave only tested pilots. And they certainly enjoyed it, and the rest can play War Thunder or hijack planes in Battlefield 4."

"IL-2" finally stopped pretending that he is interested in people unable to distinguish by eye Bf-109G2 from Bf-109F4."

Don't see like the "Dev's" have imagined... :D



Better read there: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11664-fm-claims-respond/

Sokol1

Read posts in the link. Still not sure they address in-game service ceilings.

Hood
Nov-20-2014, 14:48
And IMO almost every thread in this section is a way to stir up a shit storm.

Yes.

I'm having fun despite the unlocks. It's worth trying in MP with default loadouts as you can still enjoy it.

My most fun has been with an unlock though - the 500kg bomb slung beneath a 190.

Hood

Donathin
Nov-20-2014, 16:46
Could someone post a link to the official BoS user guide PDF?
Does "default load out" = historical load out?

WavingWhiteFlag[AM]
Nov-20-2014, 17:48
Ok... I call "Siggi".

Hood
Nov-20-2014, 17:51
I reckon there are another few elements that you could ask about to satisfy your "interest" in the sim. As a short list maybe:

FMB/ME
Dedicated server
AI (ah that's been done)

Hood

LuseKofte
Nov-20-2014, 17:54
They are all historical, but many seldom used, the FW-190 is not historical at all during BOS, it was not deployed yet to the theatre. It was built but not operational in Russia by then.
You need to unlock rockets and bombs to the fighter. The ground pounder got historical load out from the start, But you need white skin to be online. So one trip in SP will give you the essentials for all planes, 10 minutes each plane tops.
This is why I am a bit tired about all this drama.
Don't like it, don't fly it, if you fancy a flight, fly. that is it. I do the same thing with cod, I fly it when I feel the urge to do so

dburne
Nov-20-2014, 19:24
This is why I am a bit tired about all this drama.
Don't like it, don't fly it,

I still don't see all this drama you refer to from time to time, just healthy discussion for the most part. At least here that is allowed. ( one of the few places left).

But I do agree, and for the record now at this time - No, I don't like it, and No, I do not fly it. Maybe at some point in the future they will change their direction, but right now I don't see them doing that.

Donathin
Nov-20-2014, 19:26
They are all historical, but many seldom used, the FW-190 is not historical at all during BOS, it was not deployed yet to the theatre. It was built but not operational in Russia by then.
You need to unlock rockets and bombs to the fighter. The ground pounder got historical load out from the start, But you need white skin to be online. So one trip in SP will give you the essentials for all planes, 10 minutes each plane tops.
This is why I am a bit tired about all this drama.
Don't like it, don't fly it, if you fancy a flight, fly. that is it. I do the same thing with cod, I fly it when I feel the urge to do so

TY

Donathin
Nov-20-2014, 19:48
Let us imagine that there is at least one person reading this thread who is a potential BoS buyer and would like answers to the same questions I have asked. If it appears that game boosters are launching personal attacks in order to avoid answering the questions raised how does that tactic benefit the boosters' credibility?

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-20-2014, 22:49
Let us imagine that there is at least one person reading this thread who is a potential BoS buyer and would like answers to the same questions I have asked. If it appears that game boosters are launching personal attacks in order to avoid answering the questions raised how does that tactic benefit the boosters' credibility?

What personal attacks are being launched here?

theOden
Nov-21-2014, 04:30
What personal attacks are being launched here?

I'm pretty sure he is referencing the "Siggi" comment (#46).

I notice how easy folks call "drama" out of, in my view, pretty much nothing or at best a simple complaint.

Hood
Nov-21-2014, 05:07
Let us imagine that there is at least one person reading this thread who is a potential BoS buyer and would like answers to the same questions I have asked. If it appears that game boosters are launching personal attacks in order to avoid answering the questions raised how does that tactic benefit the boosters' credibility?

An excellent question. Let's extend it further.

Let us imagine that there is at least one person reading this thread who is a potential BoS buyer. Let us also assume that they might not appreciate that some threads are started with the intention of fomenting discussion designed to show BoS in a bad light. If that is the case, should that potential buyer be exposed solely to the agenda-based threads and posts, or should there be a counter-point?

Taking it even further, should the potential buyer not be able to make up their own mind without exposure to the toxic nature of threads such as this one?

FWIW no "game boosters" here. We all acknowledge the flaws in what is not yet a complete product. Those flaws are a bigger deal for some than others.

Hood

Revvin
Nov-21-2014, 08:34
I'm pretty sure he is referencing the "Siggi" comment (#46).

I notice how easy folks call "drama" out of, in my view, pretty much nothing or at best a simple complaint.

I think it was discussed in another thread that 'siggi' had become a derogatory word as in 'he's doing a siggi' akin to some meaning someone is being unreasonably critical etc

I think describing complaints as being a drama a little derogatory. Its something that's carried over from the official forums and use by others on forums like ATAG as a way of dismissing complaints from a group. We've gone from painting individual complainers as being 'haters' to now dismissing groups of people with a similar complaint as making a drama out of an issue rather than think "hmm there are a few people complaining, maybe we should look at this". It just feeds in the the developers approach that ultimately we the customer are to blame for everything.

Donathin
Nov-21-2014, 09:43
I'm pretty sure he is referencing the "Siggi" comment (#46).

I notice how easy folks call "drama" out of, in my view, pretty much nothing or at best a simple complaint.

Thank you. I have honored the previous request that we not speak of "Siggi" again but as we see in this thread that old "straw man" gets raised in almost every pile on of "heretics" by the BoS faithful. "Siggi" is a bullying tool. As I view it, when you publicly question someone's motives for asking questions you are employing a personal attack. When such attacks are initiated a pile on typically follows. The object of the attack is to get the target to react in kind so that the thread gets locked ASAP. That way no one has opportunity to address the questions the OP had asked. If you review the questions I have raised in this thread you will see that most deal with very basic aspects of the game. They are questions you might ask about any new flight game. If I use and like a product chances are I will seize any opportunity to talk to others about the product (a nice FF camera for example). It seems odd then that some BoS admirers prefer to discuss other forum members than the game they love.

ChiefRedCloud
Nov-21-2014, 10:08
WOW! How many ways can one beat a dead horse? Many of us may not like the UNLOCKS but are learning to deal with them. Voices have been heard (read) and I'm pretty sure the Dev's know how many feel about this. Will they change? I have no idea. So in the mean time, I enjoy the game or the challenge of the sim.

When I, as a new person to a sim, such as CloD or RoF or even BoS, want to learn about the sim I go into the main forum and read and read and read some more. I take in ALL the comments trying to weed out the "bitching for bitching sake" commentary. But sometimes it isn't easy. As an Eternal Novice pilot who simply likes to fly with folks like you, I am not well versed in what the ceiling is on any given aircraft nor do I really care. What I care about is enjoying myself while flying and enteracting with good natured other pilots with a similar interest. I fly and I get shot down and believe it or not I often have a smile on my face. Simply because though I've done my best to win but lost to a better pilot. That and I have learned something in the sharing of a battle.

Sorry I get carried away some time. Apologies.

Chief

Otyg
Nov-21-2014, 10:24
WOW! How many ways can one beat a dead horse? Many of us may not like the UNLOCKS but are learning to deal with them.

Darnit im posting again.... But why do people learn to deal with them? If people "learn" to deal with them i feel sorry for them.. Btw i have some good investments tips in Nigeria if anyone wants.

Hood
Nov-21-2014, 11:11
If you review the questions I have raised in this thread you will see that most deal with very basic aspects of the game. They are questions you might ask about any new flight game... I will seize any opportunity to talk to others about the product (a nice FF camera for example)...

"Obsfucation" is my word of the day. It won against "misdirection".

Go ask your questions at the official forum as you'll have more people able to help you. If they're genuine questions of course.

I'm always up for discussing my new 5D3.

Hood

ATAG_Snapper
Nov-21-2014, 11:23
Another thread closed.

Look, there are a lot of people who work hard keeping this forum a good place to visit. We intend to keep it that way. I won't argue anyone's point here one way or another. Anyone who has raised a teenager knows EXACTLY where I'm coming from. You know who you are. Stop it or I will.

Sincerely,

Snapper