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Flyers1228
Nov-29-2014, 11:47
So along with an abundance of other issues I have, there's one I seem to encounter often and struggle to find a solution. So I make my first mistake, dive down into a fight losing my altitude advantage. The usual happens, I either lose my target during the dive, or I lose my target the moment he goes vertical then I am circling around aimlessly trying to find the 109. So I am on the deck or close to it and airspeed slowly bleeding off from the original dive, look behind and 109 on my tail. My energy is very low at this point due to the circling to try and shake the 109. If i climb i risk a stall so gaining altitude is now an issue. I can't dive to gain energy, I feel like a sitting duck and 10 out of 10 times I get lit up by the 109 and its all over for me.

So after that rant, what are my options at this point if you find yourself on the deck and no energy to make up altitude with enemy on tail. I could just keep banking, but this kills energy just as quick and any competent 109 pilot catches on that I am with minimal options, corrects his strategy zooms in and gets his guns through my turn.

Should add, I fly the 1a (100oct)

I am frustrated with being such an easy target, haha.

ATAG_Colander
Nov-29-2014, 11:57
If you are diving and loose sight of your target, I recommend you abort the dive and climb again.

ATAG_Lolsav
Nov-29-2014, 11:58
First a declaration: I fly all machines there is. Not because i want to prove a point, but because i believe it makes me a better pilot and because i really love them all. That will give me a knowledge about all aircrafts, their strenght and weaknesses.

What goes up must comes down. What goes down.. sometimes comes up. If you stay up you can control the fight, dictating the rules. If you dive after a enemy you are comminting yourself knowing this: If you dont catch him he will eventually run/climb away. So time your attacks and do not brake behind him, but keep going to maintain the maximum E you can. Wait. Wait... is he coming up? Dive on that timming, not when he is going down. Also the 109 has a better dive speed than the spitfire. It is true it has a slight climb ratio, but theres something a 109 pilot cannot outclimb... your bullets. Outclimbing does not necessarily means a advantage, it depends on strategy and on working with another friend on TS. One can dive to spot what is the 109 doing, while the other stays up waiting the 109 to start to climb. Thats when the high flyer should come in to surprise the enemy.

What else.. hmmm prop pitch and radiator. If you are diving and alredy pass the 300 mph mark ease up the prop pitch, or it will act as a brake. Closing the radiator for 50/40% will grant you a few extra miles and assist you on keeping the E for longer. But carefull, you need to reopen the radiator as you start to climb as well getting the prop pitch to a higher setting again. You have to maximize the momentum. Its tricky, its demanding, it asks for experience from the pilot. Thats why its fun :)

Good luck and safe landings!

Flyers1228
Nov-29-2014, 12:29
awesome thanks guys. Will put your advice into practice.

Gotta stop being so eager for that first kill and pick my spots. As frustrating as the game has been for me, it keeps bringing me back. So its back to the skies to keep practicing so one day I can be competitive. (Oh, and maybe not dive in on Lolsav again, haha I think you lit me up in back to back sorties and I never even knew what hit me till I read the chat screen.)

ATAG_Colander
Nov-29-2014, 12:37
Trust me, you will not forget it in a long time once you manage to get your first kill :salute:

3./JG51_Heiden
Nov-29-2014, 12:53
If Spitfire pilots flew their aircraft like 109s, they would be nearly unstoppable.

ATAG_Flare
Nov-29-2014, 18:02
If Spitfire pilots flew their aircraft like 109s, they would be nearly unstoppable.
+1

ATAG_Ezzie
Nov-29-2014, 18:27
So along with an abundance of other issues I have, there's one I seem to encounter often and struggle to find a solution. So I make my first mistake, dive down into a fight losing my altitude advantage. The usual happens, I either lose my target during the dive, or I lose my target the moment he goes vertical then I am circling around aimlessly trying to find the 109. So I am on the deck or close to it and airspeed slowly bleeding off from the original dive, look behind and 109 on my tail. My energy is very low at this point due to the circling to try and shake the 109. If i climb i risk a stall so gaining altitude is now an issue. I can't dive to gain energy, I feel like a sitting duck and 10 out of 10 times I get lit up by the 109 and its all over for me.

So after that rant, what are my options at this point if you find yourself on the deck and no energy to make up altitude with enemy on tail. I could just keep banking, but this kills energy just as quick and any competent 109 pilot catches on that I am with minimal options, corrects his strategy zooms in and gets his guns through my turn.

Should add, I fly the 1a (100oct)

I am frustrated with being such an easy target, haha.

Hi Flyers,

I fly a very different aircraft to you (-110) but the challenge is still the same and in the -110 there is almost no second chance if you get stuck low and slow - so i know how you feel. But this is a challenge that i really enjoy and when it comes off its quite a buzz.

I cant offer you any specific advice re flying a spit but i think there are some things that are common regardless of what you fly. One of them is be patient and be very selective about when you decide to commit - only do so when you have everything in your favour and work out an escape plan before you do dive so you don't end up slow and low. And have a think about where you are flying - some spots on the map are better than others for stalking prey and diving on them when they least expect it. Diving into the furball over the ships, or near French point or near Dover/Deal is a sure recipe to being attacked by someone you didn't see.

Try and find some posts Glorious Ruse posted on here in the last couple of months as they are excellent re these issue and you might get some useful tips. And if you get shot down take a moment - perhaps while staring at your burning crater - to think why that just happened and figure out what you could do to prevent it next time. If you keep 'rinse-repeating' then you wont magically get better unfortunately.

Happy hunting

Ezzie

Flyers1228
Nov-29-2014, 21:09
excellent advice guys, thanks really appreciate it. Yea i notice i tend to make the same mistakes over and over, ie: diving into a fight I did not fully analyze before diving only to find out there were indeed multiple 109's and im dead. And thanks to Lolsav for taking me up for a sortie and giving me great tips and I found out I am pulling on the stick way to hard causing a huge loss in energy, so been working on smoothing out my controls as well as getting altitude long before entering a fight and maintaining that altitude.

Will also have to study up on combat maneuvers so I am not just doing random things that get me confused and into worse situations.

Thanks again guys.

ATAG_NakedSquirrel
Nov-30-2014, 03:07
Try doing some recon before you dive in after a target. If you have a low target, look to see what he is doing first. Is attacking someone? Is he going home? Is he hunting for targets? Does he have a wingman? This information should help you predict where is going to be next. Especially if he is attacking someone, it is usually easier to keep eyes on who he is chasing to predict where he is going to go, rather than trying to react to every twist and turn he makes when setting up an attack.

3./JG51_Heiden
Nov-30-2014, 03:45
Flyer, you had one heck of a bounce on me tonight. You came in with a huge head of speed. Granted, you rammed me and took off my right flap, but if you hadn't hit me, you would have seriously damaged me with gunfire. There was no evading the bounce you performed.

Flyers1228
Nov-30-2014, 09:17
Flyer, you had one heck of a bounce on me tonight. You came in with a huge head of speed. Granted, you rammed me and took off my right flap, but if you hadn't hit me, you would have seriously damaged me with gunfire. There was no evading the bounce you performed.

Haha thanks. Yea saw 2 of you come in just rolled over maybe a little too soon and did not want to look away in fear I would lose my target so lost track of my speed and next thing I knew I was zipping past you. Had to pull hard on the stick to avoid exploding us both but still caught your wing. I got so excited I thought I had my first kill as I pulled you into my sights, but in a blink of an eye things went terribly wrong, haha.

ATAG_Lolsav
Nov-30-2014, 12:04
Haha thanks. Yea saw 2 of you come in just rolled over maybe a little too soon and did not want to look away in fear I would lose my target so lost track of my speed and next thing I knew I was zipping past you. Had to pull hard on the stick to avoid exploding us both but still caught your wing. I got so excited I thought I had my first kill as I pulled you into my sights, but in a blink of an eye things went terribly wrong, haha.

:thumbsup:

Practice makes perfect. Experience will lead you to correct behaviour. Have fun, you are on a roll now!

3./JG51_Heiden
Nov-30-2014, 12:59
Haha thanks. Yea saw 2 of you come in just rolled over maybe a little too soon and did not want to look away in fear I would lose my target so lost track of my speed and next thing I knew I was zipping past you. Had to pull hard on the stick to avoid exploding us both but still caught your wing. I got so excited I thought I had my first kill as I pulled you into my sights, but in a blink of an eye things went terribly wrong, haha.

No real harm done. The flap was missing and I lost a cannon in the right wing but I was able to safely recover the plane to base with a flaps-up landing. It was fun getting it home.

ATAG_Flare
Dec-01-2014, 01:07
Quite an achievement to bounce heiden! Good work flyers!

3./JG51_Heiden
Dec-01-2014, 02:40
Quite an achievement to bounce heiden! Good work flyers!

Far be it for me to compliment anyone, but it was legit. If he hadn't rammed me I would have been in a lot of trouble. I didn't see it coming at all.

SorcererDave
Dec-01-2014, 15:06
If Spitfire pilots flew their aircraft like 109s, they would be nearly unstoppable.

"There was no hope for flat turn merchants. They just hadn't flying sense, and might as well kill themselves quickly."

^That was written by a Sopwith Camel pilot of all people. An appropriate quote I think.

GloriousRuse
Dec-03-2014, 00:54
Flyers,

First disclaimer: I am mostly a 109 pilot. I spit occasionally.

Second disclaimer: I have been on reduced stick time as of late, so my credibility is lessened.

But, in short:

To be good at a dogfight, especially a furball, you need JUDGEMENT and EXPERIENCE. However, the people who most often end up as furball bait are people who do not have those things and therefore are the people least suited to be where they actually are - in the middle of a cloud of planes. So, how do you get them so that one day you may rock through furballs righteously? Well, you can circle on the deck until you die, learning slowly, but there is a Better Way! (TM)

Step 1. Is my six clear? This question needs to be at the start of every move you make as a new pilot. Literally. Going to turn left? Check your six. Going to dive? Check your six. Been climbing for 30 seconds? Check your six. Just watched a 109 burst into fiery flames of deadly doom? Check your six, twice. Every time - every single bloody time - you go to move that stick, check your six. Yes, it is wildly redundant and often the air will be empty. One day you will not have to check your six as often. Today is not that day.

This is super important because it lets you

a) know when someone is trying to kill you and

b) know when they are NOT trying to kill you. Which seems stupid until you realize that means you can stop break turning in a diving circle now. Good red pilots blow just enough E to fox the 109, realize when he is off their six, and then let their aircraft work its sustained turn rate advantage. Bad red pilots sit in a permanent hard turn, not realizing the enemy is loitering above them, laughing as the spit runs our of E. Be a good red pilot.

Step 2. Who are those other little dots? Answer: If they are higher than you, not people you should be driving towards without a PLAN. "Lets see who they are, and then I'll get stuck in if they're baddies" is not a plan. It is a recipe for dying. "If those are 109s, I'm going to starting increasing my lateral separation while I climb until I'm co-alt, then turn back in to them. If they bounce me, I'm going to try to slip under them head on then do a sustained dive to dover and try to reset the E down low" is a plan. So is "I'm going to not drive towards them at all, and perhaps run away, gain altitude, and then come back." It doesn't mean it will work, but it'll work a lot better than starting to try to out-turn a higher guy you just climbed towards.

Step 3. See-Attack-Figure out what the hell is going on - maybe attack again. What it sounds like. You must introduce that pause to figure out what the hell is going on in the middle of your yanking and banking. During a sustained turn, or while the 109 is peaking out and you can afford to glance around, or after you have gone through the furball and think you are clear, is a great time to do this. You will often notice there is a third or fourth plane in the fight. Or steaming towards your merry dogfight from altitude and an enemy coast. One of them is probably not friendly. Finding this out before you and your opponent are feeling amazingly fighter acey looping and turning ten feet off the deck at 60 MPH will prevent many an unfortunate incidence of getting your brains gunned out.

Step 4. Realize you cannot save yourself from stupid. Once you are low and slow, you are the world's toy. Anyone who wants a piece of you will get it. There is no magic trick that will get you un low or un slow. Time and straight lines will get you un low and un slow. If you find yourself saying "but I dropped my rads, how'd he catch me" or "I thought boost cut out would do more" or "but BFM says the flying backflip immelan should work here" you are relying on gimmicks to save you from stupid. They won't. Nothing will. You will die, and die, and die again. There is no trick, no maneveur, no cunning bit of pilot lore. You die. The end.

So, once you commit low, you better be damn sure you can finish it, and if you can't...start working on your time and straight lines before someone finds you looking stupid.

Step 5. Try not to die. Seriously. Once you try not to die instead of try to kill, you will fly better. I know I personally fly infinitely better when in that mindset - I may miss a few deflection chances, but generally I get clean, solid kills while staying in a safe position. When I go all in get me a kill mode, I get crappy parts of kills and die on the deck.

Step 6. Do this again and again until you have a feel for when it is actually safe to go in to a furball or fight low. Hint: If it ends with you low and slow anywhere near another enemy plane, its not.

Flyers1228
Dec-03-2014, 16:41
Wow, thanks for that great write up. Some quality information and tips in there that will be put to good use. Got so much to learn, can't wait for the weekend so I can get back at it.

Thanks again everybody.

Roblex
Dec-04-2014, 04:17
Great advice GloriousRuse though I am not too sure about the 'If you end up low & slo you are going to die' :D True, you are in deep do-do but never give up.

Actually I think that is precisely the situation that Flyers was asking about. It is 100% correct to teach him how to avoid getting into that situation but what does he do when it happens anyway? My personal choice when low & slow and faced by a high 109 bouncing me is turning to face him when he is ready to attack, lifting my nose briefly just before he gets in firing range to send a burst his way then dodging his bullets. With his greater speed he is less able to dodge and you might get lucky; but don't lose enough E to stall. As soon as he has passed head for home but keep him in sight and be ready to turn and face him again. Keep doing this and you will either reach your own soil or get a lucky hit that makes him go home..or die of course :D Sometimes you can slowly gain enough E to face him on more equal terms. Some people advocate just running for home and dodging every time he attacks your six but I find that it merely delays my inevitable death. I follow the same tactics when caught in a Blenny; running and dodging will not save you but turning onto his 6 as he confidently curves up and round to make another pass has bagged me several 109s using just that puny front gun :D