Anybody managed to get a refund on BOS?

[bongodriver]

Just wanted to know, I'm not really enjoying the direction it's going in and it's pointless to say anything on their forum, just want shot of that crap, anybody ever manage to get refunded?

[bongodriver]

Or at least does a fanboy want to buy my account? think of all the fun you could have trolling it.

[hnbdgr]

I don't know of a single person. More likely to sell your copy.

Off topic but...how on earth did you manage to type 3726 posts on that forum? :) That's impressive!

[bongodriver]

and over 900 +1's, what can I say, I was trying to be an enthusiastic member of the community.

[bongodriver]

it's a full premium account with the 190 and La5.

[1lokos]

This guy say that is need "play" with 1CGS support, until have sufficient "XP" to "unlock" the refund: :D

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4027588/Re:_Confused_about_the_purchas#Post4027588

[bongodriver]

Bugger! why did I buy into this, I really had no idea it was going to turn in to such a dump.

[theOden]

No refund, tried last winter but was told to sell it.

As for selling, I think it's hard nowadays as there are threads on various forums with people trying to sell theirs.

Personally I just take the $100 as "getting to know 777 money".

I will not buy a gold bar for their next product.

[TWC_Target]

I put mine up on the for sale part of this forum. It went in a day, not for the full amount of course, but there's still the curious out there. The buyer of my copy probably paid the real value of the game, unless you're in Russia.

BOS support refused my request for a refund. Told me I didn't pay close enough attention to the Diary or some such nonsense. Ah well, my fault for being a stupid consumer and trusting them to put out a true successor to IL2. In a way the name itself was my developer's diary. Almost did it again with Elite Dangerous, but something nagged at me, and that little voice was apparently right!

Did you know that you didn't pay for the unlocks but that they're freebies? I guess that's how they can lock them down like they did.

Still, I can't figure out what $100.00 went to. A second hand, 5 year old engine, 2 maps, and 6 planes. And no options.

In a strange way it was a relief to get rid of it. I guess I don't have a memento to remind me of monumental foolishness.:doh:

I'll admit, I'm ranting, but I'm still out $60.00 so I think I'm entitled.:-P

[Hood]

Told me I didn't pay close enough attention to the Diary or some such nonsense.

In part they're right about this. I do however think they could have flagged things up much more clearly because a lot of folks sailed along oblivious (no criticism) to what was coming, then when it hit it caused a sh!tstorm.

Also, I wish they'd had a better FAQ to pull together the really important info eg:

1. Will there be an FMB - not on release

2. Will there be server software - not on release

3. What does IL2 mean to you - it means an easy to access experience with as good FM etc as we can make, with emphasis on combat

4. What are unlocks - more stuff for your plane but you have to play SP to get them with no exceptions

5. What is development cycle - release base product then FMB and dserver then this then that, with ongoing support to fix bugs

6. How many on server - plan is X, but limit to Y for testing

7. Player skins - like ROF with skin packs being released for download

And so on - insert your own question/answer here. Some of this stuff is in the early diary entries, some in the 60s or whenever, but not all of it is clear. It is there but you have to look for it - best to just shove it all up front.

For what it's worth, it's a good game even if it cries out for ongoing development; I've had probably 3 or 4 out of my best 10 simming moments in it.

@ Target - wait and see if it turns out to be what you want. It'd be a shame if JG3 aren't represented over Stalingrad as the real life counterparts played such a big role.

@ Bongo - same, as a month, or two, or three might bring massive changes and there is nothing to be lost by waiting.

Hood

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Hey Bongo!

No body's going to buy a virgin BofS license, Your going to have to value add!

Get grinding Man! Just imagine how much it will be worth with all those unlocks!!!!!!




;)

[bongodriver]

@Skoshi,

I thought the unlock grinding was the core of the game, the USP that makes this title so special.

@Hood.

Personally I think Mr Williams last minute declaration that all could be subject to change was a bit........last minute, simply another one of the shady tactics being employed regularly over there, it also would render your suggested FAQ redundant because everything would have a caveat which just makes it even less clear.

[Revvin]

In part they're right about this. I do however think they could have flagged things up much more clearly because a lot of folks sailed along oblivious (no criticism) to what was coming, then when it hit it caused a sh!tstorm.

Also, I wish they'd had a better FAQ to pull together the really important info

Why should a customer have to search for and then read through 80+ forum posts (developer diaries) to pick out one or two points of interest to them? Your suggestion of an FAQ is a better option but in my opinion 1C/777 have been deliberately disingenuous to avoid awkward questions about the DServer, FMB and XP unlocks. A prime example would be the unlocks, yes they were mentioned but they did not say they would be linked to MP until much later and when people complained, what did Jason say? (paraphrasing here) "oh we already told you about unlocks months ago" deliberately missing out the key point that he did not say they were linked to MP back then, the fanboys jumped on that statement and it became to stock answer to anyone criticising the XP unlocks and it somehow becomes fact and the truth swept under the carpet.

[Foul Ole Ron]

I'm keeping my copy for now in the hope that they change their game design philosophy in the future. Unlocks should only be for the cheap Russian version. Custom graphic options should be possible. I don't know what Loft was thinking with some of the design decisions - utterly daft choices and being Russian they're going to be ridiculously stubborn about making changes. They don't want to even do completely zero work changes like opening up the graphics config file for editing which would appease a lot of people. It's like they don't even want to help themselves and comes across as completely bizarre.

[vranac]

Guys, you could write on the Russian forum. Loft was saying a few months ago that he will look for a way to give a refund to anyone who is not satisfied with the game.
Even from his own pocket if there is no other way.

They understand English, no need for translators.

[bongodriver]

Do we need to register again or do we have automatic accounts at the Russian site?

OK, automatic account, just logged in fine.

[bongodriver]

Even better I am not banned at the Russian site so I can post.

[bongodriver]

Oh! I posted my request at the Russian site, B6 told me to use the support function and closed the thread, I guess they must have missed my earlier try on the support page for the same request, I will have to start another topic to explain their mistake I guess.

[bongodriver]

Potential break through, support have responded, I need to explain my case for them to be able to help me.............watch this space.

[Hood]

I don't think anyone has been disingenious. Naive yes, guilty of odd decisions, sure, but not disingenious.

The info is all there but like with any software development communication can be king, and in this environment get it wrong and you get the most rabid of polarisation for and against.

Hood

[bongodriver]

Totally disingenuous, they keep making retro active statements to alay concerns that should have been clear from the beginning, it smells of dishonesty.

[LizLemon]

I could have sworn that they were saying fmb would be available for everyone at launch right through july. Then it was soon. Now its 90% for sure this year.

[bongodriver]

They also said oculus support would be in a November update, this is pretty much all I was holding out for, the game offers me nothing else.

[TWC_Target]

@ Hood, you do know who the CO for JG3 is don't you? :)


But kidding aside, I hope you're right and that some great awakening happens with the devs. because it really isn't the absence of options, the unlocks or any number of the things you listed, that are holding this game back, it's the devs. At 70% complete everyone agrees the game was on the right track, graphics were adjustable, unlocks not a factor and the Me available (even though only given out to certain people). I imagine many would prefer to go back to the 70% mark if given the choice. So that alone speaks volumes. The potential is there, its the devs. holding it back.

And to be honest, even though I'm not happy with the end product, hopefully this situation will be short lived and the end product is really in the future because some of my friends have the game and what kind of friend would I be not to want them to enjoy the game?

[LuseKofte]

Really do not understand the problem, 48 players on server and barking dogs in the villages . Worth every penny

[ZG15_robtek]

The "problem" is, that except for some eye-candy and a "better feel of flying" Il2-BoS is a great step backward from IL2-1946.
A successor should surpass its predecessor, at least in most details.

[bongodriver]

This apparent 'feel' of flying is mere trickery though, it is not based on any accuracy, it feels almost identical to Wings of Prey, but it sure has conned a lot of people.

[LBR=H.Ostermann]

This apparent 'feel' of flying is mere trickery though, it is not based on any accuracy, it feels almost identical to Wings of Prey, but it sure has conned a lot of people.

S!


For some reason, I feel the BOS planes sluggish in controls, like some kind of lag input, especially on the Fw-190. I don't feel this on DCS or CLOD.

[LuseKofte]

The "problem" is, that except for some eye-candy and a "better feel of flying" Il2-BoS is a great step backward from IL2-1946.
A successor should surpass its predecessor, at least in most details.

I agree at some point, but TD is not official so their improvements cannot be considered in that point. Personally I do not think we will see another IL 2 Sturmovik per se. We did not get it with cod and not with BOS.
We have to do with some piece of BOS and some piece of cod and some piece of DCS.
If you believe anyone would put those millions of $ to get a complete IL2 as we know it after two major failures in terms of finance and reception I would say your a optimist.

[Hood]

@ Target - I know, but members of squads are individuals so for me JG 3 is a squad with a single "interesting" character in it but I don't view all of JG3 the same way. Most squads have at least one.

For the rest it feels good to me - kinda like being in a motor glider at 3000m. Maybe that's too light but I still like it. What is difficult is getting the feel of speed changes without reference to the gauges. I haven't spent much time in it though - 10 hours in the campaign and maybe 4 hours online.

FMB - diary #2 says no FMB on release. I don't think they ever changed this apart from making it available to a few. Lots of stuff flying around though so picking out the accurate nuggets of info was hard.

Hood

[LuseKofte]

This apparent 'feel' of flying is mere trickery though, it is not based on any accuracy, it feels almost identical to Wings of Prey, but it sure has conned a lot of people.

I wonder if that was intentional ridiculous or by accident, all simulators are con, it is not the real thing. And reading most of your 3000 post over at the other site you still forget that none of the point you are making are anything else than subjective.
You call those who fly it brainwashed fanboys, and firmly state that everyone but you are wrong.
How long do you think I can sum up one fault by the other about cod spending only one point pr fault and still be a member here? My personal guess are 3 but I am sure I could do as you if I was allowed to top 3000 post if they let me. All simulators are by your own statement con.

[bongodriver]

and firmly state that everyone but you are wrong.

Quote me


All simulators are by your own statement con.


in the context I mean it they are not.

[LuseKofte]

You want me to quote every post you have done? No I do not think so.
And I am not at all obligated to do so, you made my point pretty clear in this tread.
You see, I just responded on your con call, and it is not your first

[bongodriver]

You want me to quote every post you have done? No I do not think so.

No, I want you to find just a single quote that backs up your claim with credibility


And I am not at all obligated to do so, you made my point pretty clear in this tread.



I did what?


You see, I just responded on your con call, and it is not your first

You responded, not sure what the point was, you seem to be under a misunderstanding.

[Donathin]

The "problem" is, that except for some eye-candy and a "better feel of flying" Il2-BoS is a great step backward from IL2-1946.
A successor should surpass its predecessor, at least in most details.


I still don't understand how rebadging RoF and pumping up it's pyrotechnics can be considered "progress". To me progress implies innovation. "Better feel of flying" is tough to quantify. It could be that some at 1CGS have held a grudge against simmers since time of the CloD release. They may not be bothered that EA buyers are unhappy unless the marketers miss their real "target" (casual gamers). It is bad enough that the BoS marketers have alienated many EA buyers but I think it a safe bet that in so doing they have also alienated a number of potential buyers.

[bongodriver]

Anyway, back on my topic, it seems to be taking forever for 1CGS support to get back to me about my request, why should they even need to think about this? $89.99 must be worth getting rid of me, they could afford to pay for forum cheerleaders.

[TWC_Target]

Do you still post on the official forum? I guess if you squeak enough...


I wonder how each individual's "feeling of flight" changes with the gear we use? Pots in joysticks being tighter from one stick to another for example.

When I had to fly on helos there's one feeling of flight that I have yet to experience in any flight sim, the feeling of the bottom falling out. And yet that's a big part of real flight, that seat of the pants feeling. When the butte says we're falling and your pants are filling.whaa

[bongodriver]

I compare my feeling of flight from the real thing, 3500 hours of it.

I can't squeak on the English forum right now because of censorship.

[Logan]

@ Hood, you do know who the CO for JG3 is don't you? :) ....



I didn't, I had to look at the website, now I get it!

[aus3620]

Thanks Bongo and others for your financial support of BOS.
I'm sure the devs could not have done it without you.
With a little luck from supporters, such as yourself, I'll see you on the next 777 title forum (complaining of course! - we all need a hobby).

[hnbdgr]

I compare my feeling of flight from the real thing, 3500 hours of it.

I can't squeak on the English forum right now because of censorship.

I don't want to wade in the whole discussion in here, but just wanted to ask something regarding the feeling of flight. I've only flown a light airplane a few times in my life (as a passanger in a parallel 2 seat set up).

I think BoS gets the feeling of wind and turbulence right, BUT the problem is it's always there. It always feels like the airplane is jittering there is no smooth riding at any point. Would you agree? RL airplanes, especially heavier ones (2,5t) should have no problems flying in a straight line without jittering if no major wind force is present.

[bongodriver]

I don't want to wade in the whole discussion in here, but just wanted to ask something regarding the feeling of flight. I've only flown a light airplane a few times in my life (as a passanger in a parallel 2 seat set up).

I think BoS gets the feeling of wind and turbulence right, BUT the problem is it's always there. It always feels like the airplane is jittering there is no smooth riding at any point. Would you agree? RL airplanes, especially heavier ones (2,5t) should have no problems flying in a straight line without jittering if no major wind force is present.

The weight of the aircraft is not a factor, if the air is smooth then there should be no feeling of turbulence, not sure why they make it so turbulent in game, there is little to cause orographic turbulence on such a flat landscape and in such a cold climate there wont be much convection, wind alone doesn't cause turbulence, you can fly in the core of a 200 Knot Jetstream and sip gin and tonic comfortably.

[bongodriver]

Thanks Bongo and others for your financial support of BOS.
I'm sure the devs could not have done it without you.
With a little luck from supporters, such as yourself, I'll see you on the next 777 title forum (complaining of course! - we all need a hobby).

Actually the devs were clear that they had the funding for this project and didn't need anybody's early access money, why they are so reluctant to give it back is a mystery.

You will not be seeing me having anything to do with any future 1CGS products........IF there ever is one.

[ATAG_((dB))]

Potential break through, support have responded, I need to explain my case for them to be able to help me.............watch this space.

I am curious of what your explanation are, would you mind sharing it with us :)


I don't want to wade in the whole discussion in here, but just wanted to ask something regarding the feeling of flight. I've only flown a light airplane a few times in my life (as a passanger in a parallel 2 seat set up).

I think BoS gets the feeling of wind and turbulence right, BUT the problem is it's always there. It always feels like the airplane is jittering there is no smooth riding at any point. Would you agree? RL airplanes, especially heavier ones (2,5t) should have no problems flying in a straight line without jittering if no major wind force is present.

I am not a programmer I can't comment on how of what they've done but. But with my 14K plus flying hours the feeling of lateral instability that they build in all models feel wrong for some. Of course for someone who doesn't know will have the illusion of FEELING in flight. But for me is a turn off.

o7

[hnbdgr]

The weight of the aircraft is not a factor, if the air is smooth then there should be no feeling of turbulence, not sure why they make it so turbulent in game, there is little to cause orographic turbulence on such a flat landscape and in such a cold climate there wont be much convection, wind alone doesn't cause turbulence, you can fly in the core of a 200 Knot Jetstream and sip gin and tonic comfortably.

Hmm. I was convinced it does... but do explain, cause I'm not an expert.

I thought flying a 450KG (ultralight) vs 2,500KG (109) vs 28,000kg (take off weight of a Panavia Tornado) will feel differently because it takes more windforce to move a heavier object.

[bongodriver]

Hmm. I was convinced it does... but do explain, cause I'm not an expert.

I thought flying a 450KG (ultralight) vs 2,500KG (109) vs 28,000kg (take off weight of a Panavia Tornado) will feel differently because it takes more windforce to move a heavier object.

if the air you are flying in is smooth then no turbulence will be felt whichever aircraft you are in, when the air is rough then obviously your case applies but there is another factor, it has much to do with wing loading, a low loaded wing will feel the turbulence more.

[bongodriver]

I am curious of what your explanation are, would you mind sharing it with us




I wrote this


Hi,

The product has too many aspects thatI do not enjoy or simply frustrate me, therefore I feel my investment is notviable because it seems many of these things are not going to change, eventhough it has been said what features this game might have it was expected thatit could evolve in the course of it's development.
There has been major public outcryover some potentially bad decisions being made over this product and they arebeing ignored, having once before invested in a 1C product that was subsequentlywithdrawn I do not wish to lose out twice for similar reasons and this timelosing twice as much money.
My experience as a custome using theforums has been less than satisfactory too, the forum rules seem to be a token and certainly don't apply to a certain element, the fan base is rude and backedup by equally rude and opressive moderators.
I really just want to put every partof this behind me and 'move on' without finacial loss.

Regards

[ATAG_((dB))]

Hmm. I was convinced it does... but do explain, cause I'm not an expert.

I thought flying a 450KG (ultralight) vs 2,500KG (109) vs 28,000kg (take off weight of a Panavia Tornado) will feel differently because it takes more windforce to move a heavier object.

The lateral "oscillation" you feel is not related to the turbulence. In turbulence the aircraft movement should be unpredictable and chaotic. Next time you fired up BOS check what your nose is doing, it move in the same pattern.

As for turbulence as Bongo says it is very unlikely over Stalingrad in winter unless you have more then 15kts wind on the ground. At those altitude you only have 2 type of turbulence.
Thermal and mechanical http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:atmospheric-turbulence

That mean that unless you have strong ground wind, you wont have up and down draft that are associated with the wind that goes up and down following the terrain. This is the mechanical turbulence. Or during summer when the sun heat up the land. Think of it that it's like when you boil water, when you turn on the heat, bubble will form at the bottom of the pan. It is the same with air, the sun heat the ground, the ground heat the air. Result thermal turbulence

o7

[hnbdgr]

The lateral "oscillation" you feel is not related to the turbulence. In turbulence the aircraft movement should be unpredictable and chaotic. Next time you fired up BOS check what your nose is doing, it move in the same pattern.

As for turbulence as Bongo says it is very unlikely over Stalingrad in winter unless you have more then 15kts wind on the ground. At those altitude you only have 2 type of turbulence.
Thermal and mechanical http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:atmospheric-turbulence

o7

Well I'll admit I haven't played since version 1.005 and someone said they changed it recently, but I remember it always felt like my aircraft was twitching left and right. I felt that was unrealistic with no wind present. One would expect to feel some vibration from the massive propeller moving around and the engine going, but that twitching was not something I experienced in real life.

[ATAG_((dB))]

Well I'll admit I haven't played since version 1.005 and someone said they changed it recently, but I remember it always felt like my aircraft was twitching left and right. I felt that was unrealistic with no wind present. One would expect to feel some vibration from the massive propeller moving around and the engine going, but that twitching was not something I experienced in real life.

And it is still like that, that's what I mean and it's is wrong. It is almost like a dutch roll feel and you should only see that when flying at high altitude with a swept wing aircraft. Check the animation on that wiki and tell me if it's what you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_roll

[ATAG_((dB))]

Bongo you are a polite customer :thumbsup:

[hnbdgr]

And it is still like that, that's what I mean and it's is wrong. It is almost like a dutch roll feel and you should only see that when flying at high altitude with a swept wing aircraft. Check the animation on that wiki and tell me if it's what you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_roll

Yes very similar to that. :thumbsup:

[ATAG_((dB))]

As you see this is wrong, for some folks however this is the WHY BoS feel more real. On the other hand discussing the never ending FM my sim is better then yours is a waste of time. Even a multi million CAE simulator is not the same as flying the real aircraft and if involve a massive team of engineer and test pilots. So expecting it from a small developer is naive.

o7

[hnbdgr]

As you see this is wrong, for some folks however this is the WHY BoS feel more real. On the other hand discussing the never ending FM my sim is better then yours is a waste of time. Even a multi million CAE simulator is not the same as flying the real aircraft and if involve a massive team of engineer and test pilots. So expecting it from a small developer is naive.

o7

well put thank you for your explanation :salute:

[bongodriver]

I'm starting to think 1CGS are not bothering with my case.....or am I being impatient?

[hnbdgr]

I'm starting to think 1CGS are not bothering with my case.....or am I being impatient?

I think selling is the way to go I'm afraid. The cases of game refunds be it steam or independent publishers are few and far in between. If you really want a refund you could PM Jason on the forums I guess.

[bongodriver]

Already did, completely ignored it.

[hnbdgr]

well you've got ebay, reddit, simhq and countless other outlets. Somebody will bite. Remember to phrase the selling pitch well ;)

[bongodriver]

What is it with simHQ, I registered but it seems to take forever to get an approval for the registration.

[1lokos]

Of course for someone who doesn't know will have the illusion of FEELING in flight.

Next time you fired up BOS check what your nose is doing, it move in the same pattern

A funny experience, set a 2 m/s wind, take a il-2, trim in level flight - with trim, not the "autopilot for level flight", and speed time compression 2x.

Watch the plane from external, they move like a snake in hot sand, but don't loose the rail, no matter the wind direction. :)

[1lokos]

Remember to phrase the selling pitch well

Maybe sell easy if unlock all "field mods", weapons and skins first. :)

Sokol1

[bongodriver]

I would feel too ashamed to play the game and it's unlocks and would need to shower after, I'm hoping one of the zealots will be attracted to the idea of a virgin game, there is something about people of that mentality and virgins.

[hnbdgr]

Maybe sell easy if unlock all "field mods", weapons and skins first. :)

Sokol1

lol you might end up selling it for twice the price :D

[ATAG_Colander]

OR you can rent it and get it back once all the unlocking was done :)

[bongodriver]

Hmmm......it's a thought.

[ATAG_((dB))]

A funny experience, set a 2 m/s wind, take a il-2, trim in level flight - with trim, not the "autopilot for level flight", and speed time compression 2x.

Watch the plane from external, they move like a snake in hot sand, but don't loose the rail, no matter the wind direction. :)

I didn't know you could do that:thumbsup: that prove the point. I don't play BoS anymore, not because of that, but the direction that the developer with their "shut up I know better then you" attitude. That game had so much potential until 70% then suddenly the official release of another unfinished game. I bought the game at 50%. From what I can recall from 75% BoS start to get worst and worst. It is not normal that a new game perform and look worst the an old one in my book. I am not to say that CloD is perfect, far from it but I can live with it's imperfection, like my wife :P

As for DCS I am still ambiguous, I find it cold and lifeless, but I love the cockpit and the FM, way to much micro management for my taste however. I am looking forward to EDGE, WW2 maps and the Spit IX.

o7

[bongodriver]

Tantalising signs of life, I sent another email (assuming it was going to be a no) but instead was asked for all the details of my original transaction.........then silence again after I immediately sent the details.

[bongodriver]

Another repeat email sent........still waiting.

[lion737]

Hey Bongo,

you invested more than 3000 posts, what makes up to a few hundred hours, just for complaining about a game.
If i think of the money you get payed as a pilot per hour, that was a huge investement. The 90 bucks are nothing but peanuts in comparison. Why do you care about that ? If you had ask me earlier, i would have bought your acount and give it away on the forum for x-mas. Would have saved some minutes, i lost reading your posts. Now that you are banned over there, i better by a new account for the x-mas giveaway.


best regards

[bongodriver]

The ban is temporary why would that make a difference? it doesn't stop anybody from playing the game on my license.

my 3000 posts are not complaining, only the ones people take notice of are, the rest are just general chit chat or helping people out.

[LuseKofte]

I am banned from there until December 8. :) does not prevent me from flying it.
Personally I fly only 1,5 hour a week when I am home it sums maybe 5 hours a month. Still that is 100% more than I fly cod. and half the time I spend on DCS.
I spendt far more $ pr flying time in DCS than I did in BOS so I guess BOS is worth the money

[bongodriver]

good for you.

[Archie]

Metacritic score now 5.9, try and offload it quick...

[bongodriver]

fingers crossed the last hurdle is cleared, latest cryptic email is that they have sent a 'request'? for refund, not sure what that means.....I thought I was the one requesting it.

[hnbdgr]

Haha, glanced over at metacritic and I just read this gem: :)



10/10 loubard

This is how a good simulation should feel like!
The game is making constantly more fun each day. The producers seem to update it regulary and they reply very fast to nearly every suggestions, questions or critics in the official game forum. Thumbs up!

[LuseKofte]

Metacritic score now 5.9, try and offload it quick...


Yes by all means, after all integrity and honesty is not wanted.

5,9 is about what I think of it, fair enough

[Hood]

I wonder what the score would be if everyone gave it a fair review in 6 months or so and they've added functionality etc and maybe the unlock furore has died down.

Wait and see I guess - that's pretty much my mantra.

Hood

[bongodriver]

So BOS is a bit like a tasty treat covered in crap is what you really mean yes?

once you have endured the wretching and gagging and managed to suck all the crap off you will soon forget about that part once you are down to the tasty treat underneath, almost like it never happened?

Problem is it's not even that much of a treat underneath, awful flight dynamics, simplistic damage model, lack of customisation options, dumbed down systems management (no shit you can't even map trim to an axis), outdated game engine....etc

if they don't listen to feedback and criticism and stay stubbornly on they current policy of covering it in crap there will be nothing to review in 6 months.

[LuseKofte]

I disagree deeply, I am no pilot, but I have flown different types of cessna and one time a Robinson chopper. The game physics of BOS is the best ever made. I agree that in many maneuvers and winds many of the planes feel to light weighted and there is some kind of kite feeling to it.
But if you look at DCS the same way as you do to BOS you can find as many faults as there are in BOS.
The game ranking everywhere are kind of what Archie here shows, it is the force of the Banana forum all over again.
The problem with BOS is how the Developers are presenting it, they started this thing with cigars high in the skies and are now very defensive.
To me this is over analyzed , over dramatized and this refund crap is totally bullshit.
If Bongo get his refund , it will mean I should have a refund for my Steam complete DCS collection and those I do not like, meaning 2- P-51. 2-A-10, 1 - Sabre, 1 Huey, and 1 MI 8
3 times the value. And BF 3 , COD ghost whatever and counter strike.

[bongodriver]

I am a professional pilot, I will trust my own judgement.....thanks

If you want your refund it should be for your own reasons and not because you are offended by me getting mine......sad.

[LuseKofte]

That is just my case, I prefer to trust mine and you should let other trust theirs. Because it is like you say a con, we are fooling ourself to think we fly. And in that world it is all subjective. No matter what you do for a living

I am not offended at all, but you have flown and owned a game in 1 year and expect refund? Fine , but it beats me how that will work out

[bongodriver]

I barely touched it, but what difference does that make anyway, it's not a physical object, I haven't soiled it, I just want to return the license for a refund.

Yeah sorry I forgot I'm in the internet here, everything I know about aviation is invalid because....you know.....the internet.

[Archie]

Bongo didn't quite a few of the more ardent fans offer to buy peoples copies, if only they would promise to leave the forum? Have you tried to message them about their kind offer?

[bongodriver]

I messaged a few yes, all turned me down and it's not like anyone can miss my profile is for sale at the moment.

[LuseKofte]

I think it will be possible in near future for you to sell it, There are coming new ones along. I can post a advert in Bos forum for it when my ban is lifted des.8. It might give me a new one but whatever :)

[bongodriver]

a bargain at $89.99

[Hood]

So BOS is a bit like a tasty treat covered in crap is what you really mean yes?

etc



An odd analogy as I'd expect you to put it the other way round i.e. crap covered by a tasty treat, but I'll go with it.

It's a tasty treat that needs a side dish to make it into a tasty meal, the side dish being FMB and hosting capabilities. Maybe take out a bit of salt i.e. unlocks.

For the rest, well that's your opinion and you're just as entitled to have one as much as anyone else.

Hood

[bongodriver]

Not really my analogy though is it, I was asking a question to you if it could be described as such.

My analogy is more like it being a mediocrity covered in crap.

[Hood]

It is a logical analogy but the answer stands - no that isn't what I am saying and it's really a stretch to get from my comment to that.

I'll chuck in an idiom though - one man's meat is another man's poison. Just because many people dislike features of the game the voluble expression of that dissatisfaction doesn't mean everyone should have the same thoughts about it.

Coo I'm waxing lyrical tonight.

'night all.

Hood

[bongodriver]

Yeah, maybe everyone should just suck it up, deal with it and move on.

[LuseKofte]

Yes, I take a beer on that. Flights community is so small already , it is actually funny it is able to be divided

[vranac]

That is just my case, I prefer to trust mine and you should let other trust theirs. Because it is like you say a con, we are fooling ourself to think we fly. And in that world it is all subjective. No matter what you do for a living

I am not offended at all, but you have flown and owned a game in 1 year and expect refund? Fine , but it beats me how that will work out

Just prefer that, you're right :D

My friend is a military pilot, Blakhart also , Kwaitek is a real life pilot and I can throw a few RL pilots from the Russian side that are saying the same thing, the same faults in FM again and again.

Enjoy it, no one will counteract your " feeling of flight ".

[TWC_Target]

I'm thinking Bongo, that if you're granted a refund the door will be flung wide open for others. How many requests for a refund do you suppose there is/was. I know they got one from me. The silent majority?

[LuseKofte]

Just prefer that, you're right :D

My friend is a military pilot, Blakhart also , Kwaitek is a real life pilot and I can throw a few RL pilots from the Russian side that are saying the same thing, the same faults in FM again and again.

Enjoy it, no one will counteract your " feeling of flight ".

Well many do ;)
and I am care less for the contempt you show against all that does. I enjoy all the flying I do, otherwise it would be pretty pointless.
BOS got stuff that cod lack, and the other way around.
DCS, well enjoyable flights but not much more. I am talking about what else to do. I don't find COD any better than BOS neither in community nor game wise .

[1lokos]

Alternative solution for this case:


If Bongo get his refund ... I should have a refund for 1 - Sabre, 1 Huey, and 1 MI 8
3 times the value. And BF 3 , COD ghost

Luse propose exchange with the Bongo his Sabre and MI 8 be his BoS copy. :)
And give him as extra bonus COD Ghost and Counter Strike keys. :D

[Stig1207]

I barely touched it, but what difference does that make anyway, it's not a physical object, I haven't soiled it, I just want to return the license for a refund.


So if you had bought the game on a DVD and tried it out for a year you wouldn't go back to the shop and ask for a refund?

[ATAG_Slipstream]

So if you had bought the game on a DVD and tried it out for a year you wouldn't go back to the shop and ask for a refund?

The game hasn't been out for a year, the only reason for the early access was to finance it and beta test which IMHO was a win win situation for the devs. If bongo isn't happy with the final result, he should be entitled to a refund, but these days the emphasis is no longer in the customer being right or happy, its all about making big bucks.

[bongodriver]

So if you had bought the game on a DVD and tried it out for a year you wouldn't go back to the shop and ask for a refund?

what a dumb question, DVD has nothing to do with anything

Hypothesise all you like, I paid nearly $100 in good faith for early access thinking it would help the genre, but it turns out the money is being wasted as these characters don't seem to know what they are doing.

[Hood]

Yeah, maybe everyone should just suck it up, deal with it and move on.

I think this would be the best thing.

@ Slipstream - I don't think there is big bucks in combat flight sims. The development-release-development cycle is how you see a lot of things. DCS is probably the best example as they have paid betas for the modules.

It's not a good or bad thing, it's just how it is and without it we probably wouldn't have the choice of 3 WWII sims.

Hood

[ATAG_((dB))]

Suck it up is not the answer, company are going away with things that would not have in the past, because most us "just suck it up". I bet that if everyone who are genuinely unhappy and unsatisfied of that mess would have, like Bongo ask for a refund, things would have been different.

[Donathin]

The developers/producers took $50-90 from simmers and in return produced a product targeted at casual flight gamers. It's not complicated. Consider early access as an enticement or perk to obtain the buy-in. The developers used EA buyers' input as part of their project development. The simmers are now a "creditor" group and the producers are either unable or unwilling provide useful return on the investment.

[LuseKofte]

Suck it up is not the answer, company are going away with things that would not have in the past, because most us "just suck it up". I bet that if everyone who are genuinely unhappy and unsatisfied of that mess would have, like Bongo ask for a refund, things would have been different.

You know perfectly well , that if BOS developers got to pay Bongo refund, DCS and 1C got to do the same. It would be devastating .
Do you really believe these guys make big bucks, look at the Kickstarter project in DCS, it did not fund one thing, it was simply not enough.
What we are talking about here is , Bongo want revenge and a lot of people does. It is the sickness in this community that surface.
In all other genres people let go , but in this never

[Revvin]

Suck it up is not the answer, company are going away with things that would not have in the past, because most us "just suck it up". I bet that if everyone who are genuinely unhappy and unsatisfied of that mess would have, like Bongo ask for a refund, things would have been different.

Some people are too willing to believe the fallacy that if BoS fails then there is nothing else to play or nothing else coming and that the genre will die. That is just not true when we have Cliffs of Dover, DCS and War Thunder covering a broad spectrum of tastes and with the DCS series they have created a whole new cottage industry of mod groups who are turning into professional content creators some of which will possibly go on to create their own sim just as NeoQB did.

[TheVino3]

You know perfectly well , that if BOS developers got to pay Bongo refund, DCS and 1C got to do the same. It would be devastating .
Do you really believe these guys make big bucks, look at the Kickstarter project in DCS, it did not fund one thing, it was simply not enough.
What we are talking about here is , Bongo want revenge and a lot of people does. It is the sickness in this community that surface.
In all other genres people let go , but in this never

What does DCS have to refund anyone for?

[Donathin]

What does DCS have to refund anyone for?

That's another "straw man" argument. Why on earth would other developers be forced to give en masse customer refunds just because some few BoS EA buyers receive refunds? The purpose of "straw man" arguments is to confuse or conflate issues. Here the inference might be that a customer asking for refund is a "taker".

[ATAG_Snapper]

Yeah, maybe everyone should just suck it up, deal with it and move on.

This gets the ATAG Forum's Post of the Month Award! :thumbsup:

:)

[LuseKofte]

What does DCS have to refund anyone for?

They had to refund me, for the same reason BOS got to refund Bongo.
I don't want the P-51 and the 109 does not work for me. I did not know what I did and at a age of close to only 50 years I am not grown up to be responsible for my action.
In here everybody is pretty arrogant towards BOS, and everybody think it is ok with a refund.To me it just looks like someone need to grow up.

[Donathin]

Seems like 1CGS/777 have created problems for their EA customers for which they are refusing to compensate those customers. There can be varying perceptions as to which group ought to "grow up". It's been said and may be true that these days nobody puts the customer first.

[ChiefRedCloud]

I paid nearly $100 in good faith for early access thinking it would help the genre, but it turns out the money is being wasted as these characters don't seem to know what they are doing.

You invested nearly $100 in an Early Access Alpha that guaranteed you'd have a WW2 Russian Front, i.e. Stalingrad, Flight Sim. When you 'invest' in anything, you are never guaranteed to get what you think or hope to get. But you did get a WW2 Russian Front Flight Sim that actually works (barring any bugs that still need to be dealt with).

They have no reason to give anyones money back based on the fact that anyone is unhappy that they invested in something sight unseen. I feel for you and any others that are genuinely unhappy with this sim. But beating a dead horse will not bring it back to life. Sell your account if you can and be happy. But nocking a dollar off of what you spent and calling it a bargain will not get you many offers I dare say.

Chief

[Mysticpuma]

In here everybody is pretty arrogant towards BOS, and everybody think it is ok with a refund.To me it just looks like someone need to grow up.

Seriously, it's these all encompassing statements that should be read before hitting the 'submit' button.
The nature of this thread is about a disgruntled consumer asking for a refund, is it any surprise that there is animosity on the part of those for and against this decision?
Ultimately it's an interest thread on consumer led action when an investment that was made as a show of good faith in the way the developers 'sold' the software to the/a community member, has disenfranchised him/them and now it's about whether it's possible to get a refund under the principle of effectively being misled in their opinion.
It will be interesting to see if bongo can get a refund for no other reason than it would show a willingness to appease disgruntled purchasers (and maybe quieten down the loudest voices) as well as (and this really will be the sticking point) it could be seen as proof that they did mis-sell their product, and the latter is the crux of the matter.

So let's not see accusations of 'everyone hates BoS', as that is not the point of this thread. This is about an early adopter being led down one path (let's say during development you were allowed full access to.all the features in the Playboy Mansion :) ) through the whole development process and then having someone put a 'path closed' sign up,followed by ' go this way for full access' and then finding the new route takes them.to house next door to the Playboy Mansion.....and there is a big security fence blocking the view.....and I'll stop there before I get into analogies about 'grinding'!

So the ticket to access the Mansion is still paid for and in your hand.....but now security have told you that yes, it still exists...but you can only go to the next house down the block and keep the memories of what you once had.

MP

[ATAG_((dB))]

They had to refund me, for the same reason BOS got to refund Bongo.
I don't want the P-51 and the 109 does not work for me. I did not know what I did and at a age of close to only 50 years I am not grown up to be responsible for my action.
In here everybody is pretty arrogant towards BOS, and everybody think it is ok with a refund.To me it just looks like someone need to grow up.

Not sure I followed you Lusekofte. You bought the P51 with DCS you have it that the end of the story, like it or not it's yours. On BOS it's a different story

[LuseKofte]

I disagree, I bought BOS and believed it would be a upgraded IL 2, I think it is fair to say I am equally disappointed as Bongo here. But I got only two choices , use it or not. Same goes for P-51 in DCS . I do not like it, I got two choices use it or not.
Since the Dora is available I can choose not to fly P-51 , but since there is no IL 2 upgraded version I find a way to use what I got. In the end of the day, I did not read developers diary and I did not see what was coming. If I known BOS would be as narrow and this unpopular I probably would not buy it myself.
Because there is no future in a product that aint getting money.

@Mysticpuma , I say the attitude towards BOS is pretty arrogant, and it reminds very much of cod release on Bananaforums, I do not say the community here are arrogant in general.
But however you wish to take what I say is totally up to you. But you do not have to say much against cod before you get a storm against you. I was well aware of that when I wrote it

[1lokos]

You bought the P51 with DCS you have it that the end of the story, like it or not it's yours. On BOS it's a different story

This. The EA buyers ("founders") bought a "promise" - not a finished product or Beta like DCS modules - and what ones like Bongo feel is that this promise (basically a "il-2 II") has not been properly fulfilled... :D

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

I just hope people have learned not to put money into a game until they see it. i know people want to get in early with "extras" offered and support flight sims but its clearly not worth it. as they say the proof is in the pudding.

[Archie]

You invested nearly $100 in an Early Access Alpha that guaranteed you'd have a WW2 Russian Front, i.e. Stalingrad, Flight Sim. When you 'invest' in anything, you are never guaranteed to get what you think or hope to get. But you did get a WW2 Russian Front Flight Sim that actually works (barring any bugs that still need to be dealt with).

They have no reason to give anyones money back based on the fact that anyone is unhappy that they invested in something sight unseen. I feel for you and any others that are genuinely unhappy with this sim. But beating a dead horse will not bring it back to life. Sell your account if you can and be happy. But nocking a dollar off of what you spent and calling it a bargain will not get you many offers I dare say.

Chief

I'm sure I read that the devs said the EA money wasn't actually for BoS, but for what comes after. As they forgot to mention that at the beginning, I feel anyone who wants a refund should be entitled to one.

[theOden]

This. The EA buyers ("founders") bought a "promise" - not a finished product or Beta like DCS modules - and what ones like Bongo feel is that this promise (basically a "il-2 II") has not been properly fulfilled... :D
Correct.
That IL2 label meant something back then.
Today it doesn't.
Unless, 777 and 1C renames this shipwreck into it's correct name "RoF'43" - but that would require some spine.

[ATAG_((dB))]

This. The EA buyers ("founders") bought a "promise" - not a finished product or Beta like DCS modules - and what ones like Bongo feel is that this promise (basically a "il-2 II") has not been properly fulfilled... :D

Exactly, we bought it because for the name. The way I see it the name was use to deceive the "simmers" to buy it, knowing perfectly well that they should have use the "Gaijin" name instead.

How do call that? You buy a Mercedes and under the hood you have a Ford engine?

[theOden]

You invested nearly $100 in an Early Access Alpha that guaranteed you'd have a WW2 Russian Front, i.e. Stalingrad, Flight Sim. ..


Most definfitively not and not even close in a million years.
I payed for a product incl. some obscure early access.
No investment what.so.ever.

If the product would have been worth the effort I would've 'invested' my spare time hours creating missions and what not to immmerse myself over and over again if mission editor would allow (that's what I do in Dover nowadays, even adding the number of invested hours to mission creation learning c# to add even more possible hours to enjoy in the future).

This payment of $100 only became learning dollares.
Good to know them though, for future decisions.

[javelina]

I just hope people have learned not to put money into a game until they see it. i know people want to get in early with "extras" offered and support flight sims but its clearly not worth it. as they say the proof is in the pudding.

I for one have learned a "lesson", as you note.

To date, DCS has been solid with their Beta's. Maybe just the amount of inertia they have (and initial delivery focus). But any rate, no more beta money for alpha efforts at this point. Unless it's DCS.

[ATAG_Septic]

In here everybody is pretty arrogant towards BOS, and everybody think it is ok with a refund.To me it just looks like someone need to grow up.

Hi LuseKofte,

I have some sympathy with your defensive attitude but please temper your generalized opinions aimed towards "everybody". I try not to be arrogant and I have no opinion to express on BoS refunds. In fact arrogance and opinions about BoS are found amongst very few of our members here.

I concede that I may not always act as the fifty-four year-old man that I am, I often play what are essentially games for children of all ages for instance.

Septic.

[Stig1207]

what a dumb question, DVD has nothing to do with anything

Hypothesise all you like, I paid nearly $100 in good faith for early access thinking it would help the genre, but it turns out the money is being wasted as these characters don't seem to know what they are doing.

That's the risk we took when we bought into EA. Whether you have bought a phsysical or digital product, you can't expect a refund because it doesn't live up to your expectations or you got bored with it. You may get a refund by grace of the seller but not because he's obligated.

[bongodriver]

Whatever, I just want my money back and I'm asking for it, the rest is up to them.

[LuseKofte]

Hi LuseKofte,

I have some sympathy with your defensive attitude but please temper your generalized opinions aimed towards "everybody". I try not to be arrogant and I have no opinion to express on BoS refunds. In fact arrogance and opinions about BoS are found amongst very few of our members here.

I concede that I may not always act as the fifty-four year-old man that I am, I often play what are essentially games for children of all ages for instance.

Septic.

You are right, I am sorry.

[Slamdance]

Hi LuseKofte,

I have some sympathy with your defensive attitude but please temper your generalized opinions aimed towards "everybody". I try not to be arrogant and I have no opinion to express on BoS refunds. In fact arrogance and opinions about BoS are found amongst very few of our members here.

I concede that I may not always act as the fifty-four year-old man that I am, I often play what are essentially games for children of all ages for instance.

Septic.

I have read every post to this point. Septic has taken the lid off this and it "should" dissipate.

I am absolutely not telling anyone the value of a dollar, but, unfortunately I can't see the difference between buying a boxed "game" that sucks.

Perhaps our Russian friends have created what they consider a tribute to their patriotic Stalingrad. In their eyes it's worth defending.

I've yet to relinquish 1946 as those most "complete" game....I mean sim.

This division or perceived division serves no one.

As a man close to Septic's age, I'm in total agreement....

Thanks for the fresh air Septic :thumbsup:

[LuseKofte]

Let quit this shit and go FPS instead


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYCX65UwLls

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Let quit this shit and go FPS instead


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYCX65UwLls

Red Orchestra 2 maybe? :)

[bongodriver]

if I get my refund I'll treat myself to something fun.

[Hoots]

Twister?

[bongodriver]

Ball in a cup.....something like that.

[Archie]

Ball in a cup.....something like that.

Maybe this one, you could pretend its the BoS forum...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB_n2q5M8VU
:)

[bongodriver]

Bearcat simulator.:)

[ATAG_Colander]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTrAVpK9blw

[knightgames]

You know perfectly well , that if BOS developers got to pay Bongo refund, DCS and 1C got to do the same. It would be devastating .
Do you really believe these guys make big bucks, look at the Kickstarter project in DCS, it did not fund one thing, it was simply not enough.
What we are talking about here is , Bongo want revenge and a lot of people does. It is the sickness in this community that surface.
In all other genres people let go , but in this never


It's not revenge LuseKofte. I personally don't think I got what was advertized.... or at least what was implied to entice my 89 dollars from my wallet. I payed in early to support something I thought would be a reflection of the original IL2 and contain the reliability/functionality of RoF.

I read the DD pretty regularly and read where there would be an upgrade system, but whenever asked for specifics (from MANY in the community) regarding the campaign, all we got is, "We're not ready to discuss that." Dawn should have broke over Marblehead and made me realize we will definitely be having unlocks, especially when the whole kerfuffle about the IL2 rear gunner unlock for SILVER supporters came about. My bad. But I don't feel totally responsible. 777 was just vague enough, just quiet enough that not many people caught on that there would be unlocks. Hence the "big bru ha ha" a month ago.

I can live with the "flying for unlocks" but I don't like them. I feel 777 was just hush mouth enough to get people to fork over the cash for the gold bar - borderline dishonesty.

To add to how I feel about 777 being less than honest with early access pilots, I think the early access mess has to be included. Yes. No one said we'd have 100% access right away, but why not just come out and say we're planning a staged intro to early access. It will be two days a week for testing for the first month and then added days per our testing. Now, I didn't really care about the days or times that EA was available, but it just adds to the total feeling about the company. Do this BEFORE I plunk down my cash. At the very least it's poor customer relations. I, personally, no longer trust them.

I don't really care about the ability to tweak my graphic settings. It would be nice, but the game plays well on my PC so it's moot to me. The think is; the option was there in the beginning. They are in RoF and IL2. Why would I not expect them to stay in the game? Just another tick on the "do not trust list." Same goes for time compression. It's in both predecessors and was in the EA. Why not now? "Tick!"

I don't know what was said by ACG to make Jason so mad that he closed the THE BEGINNING OF THE END video topic in the 1C forum, but I wonder how many others knew what was going on too. In my eyes his hissy fit looked petty and unprofessional. Couple that with how many times he told us we were lucky to have early access and I find myself less endeared to the company and it's product. He may have been totally honest when he said that we are lucky and that other companies don't have early access, but I PAID to be in it. I'm not lucky. Him saying that just sounded like he was scolding children he can't control.

I could overlook those if the game was at least somewhat representative of what was implied.


BACK to the GAME:

That dinky crappy little useless map in the corner? What's that about? So I press "O" to get a full sized map, but unlike RoF I can't change size or opacity. So while I'm flying on line (a rarity) I can't pause to get my bearings and stay on course. If I were able to change size or opacity, like in RoF, I could both orient myself and fly to my next point on the map. Why change it when it worked so well in RoF?

IL2 and RoF had some interesting single player missions. It wasn't much, but what does BoS have?

My biggest gripe is the campaign. I could forgive all the rest if the campaign was better executed. Hell. I'd settle for, "We'll try to release a good one next year depending on the success of the game." Right now I see no hope of change and this campaign generator just ..... well.... blows. I wish I could remember exactly how they described the campaign system in the beginning and compare it to how it was actually released. Ground Hog Day was not what I had in my mind when they advertized a robust campaign.

The ME? I've used it enough to know that making missions is tedious, cumbersome and just not fun. I have to hand it to those that do persevere. It's not hard. It's just numbingly tedious. That does make me wonder what sort of user campaign/missions we'll see from the community. Frankly, I'm not betting on the number of mission makers or quality as we had in IL2.

The QMB is pretty strong, but without set goals for certain bombers they act like the flying Wellendas. It still only has minimal appeal because there are no objectives. I'm bored to tears with it.

The poor hit sounds always get me killed. One of the few times I went online was last night. On the apron, starting my engine, I was constantly vulched by this one flyer. I heard the bullets hit the ground, but did not hear them hit me. In single player if I do hear them it sounds like they are tearing through canvas. I can hear my bullets hit the enemy in front of me.... just not me.

Since I rarely if ever fly on line, single player is my playing preference. The campaign system or single missions should have been as robust as IL2 or RoF. I know early 2001 IL2 was lacking in aspects too, but we're talking a successor to IL2. It should include most of the features the original ended up with if it's going to call itself a successor.

And let's be honest here. Despite the grunt load of work to make this game, it is at it's core RoF - a five year old engine. They didn't develop a new engine, game, mechanics, FMs, DMs etc. To witness such a disparity between the two predecessors and BoS is confusing.

THAT said. I won't spend another penny on future 777 games and since the money collected was for future add ons and I won't be ordering any, they can have the game back, give me my 89 bucks and no one would be out anything. So no. It's not revenge. I didn't get what was intimated by their continuous catch words. As a single player I find the campaign to be horrendous, and since I don't really play the game anymore I wasted 89 dollars on the reputation of two franchises that weren't able to combine the best of both. I'd love to have my money back. Sad part is that I still have hope for the ME and the community.


EDIT: Sorry. First time I ever really let out what I feel about this game. Sorry for the diarrhea of the keyboard.

[LuseKofte]

Well I am personally past this discussion, I have never been a regular pro anything. I just object to the blunt characteristics made by the community. Nothing more.

[dburne]

EDIT: Sorry. First time I ever really let out what I feel about this game. Sorry for the diarrhea of the keyboard.

Well I will tell you, it was all very well said and just about sums up all my feelings at this time as well. Only difference is you are still flying and trying to make something out of it, I just can't do it, and won't unless they make some major changes.

I actually tried to get a refund back when the EA started with the limited couple of days a week - during the week. I travel for a living and the only time I had was on the weekends, I too was not happy about that - but, water under the bridge at this point.

I still try to remain hopeful that someone will wake up and maybe steer their ship a little differently, however it gets harder to remain hopeful with each passing week.

I don't hold any ill will toward the sim, I hope it succeeds and I am glad for those that really like it the way it is, it just ain't for me at this time.

[knightgames]

Well I am personally past this discussion, I have never been a regular pro anything. I just object to the blunt characteristics made by the community. Nothing more.


I understand, LuseKofte and I dumped a lot into one post that's been said time and time again. I was only trying to illustrate it's not vengeance but the feeling of being cheated by getting something that really wasn't 'advertized.' We may have gotten the letter of the law, but they advertized using the spirit of the law. In other words we got a functioning WW2 plane set flying over Stalingrad, but we didn't get a decent combination of RoF and IL2, which was touted on the forums.

I'm really not bitter and frankly, the reactions of both developers and community have been at times, sophomoric. There have been many instances of poor character.

D.Burnett: Thanks.

[TheVino3]

They had to refund me, for the same reason BOS got to refund Bongo.
I don't want the P-51 and the 109 does not work for me. I did not know what I did and at a age of close to only 50 years I am not grown up to be responsible for my action.

Well if you feel you were mislead by the DCS devs about what the P-51 would be, and the Bf109 doesn't work because of mistakes that the devs made, rather than your hardware, then yeah you could argue you deserve a refund.


In here everybody is pretty arrogant towards BOS, and everybody think it is ok with a refund.To me it just looks like someone need to grow up.

If you don't like generalized attitudes and sweeping statements, why are you constantly using them?

[jaydee]

I played BOS. I loved it for a while. I" Used" it for it 18 months. I didn't like the direction it was heading so I left. I got 18months of good entertainment for 90 Bucks. I don't feel entitled to a Refund.
As Judge Judy says "I ATE the Steak, so no point in complaining about the Steak"..... I just wont spend another cent in that restaurant !
Besides, we got TF5 coming, DCS modules dropping out so fast, I cant keep up with my Controls in DCS !!
That's how I roll ! ~S~

[bongodriver]

A steak is a completely different matter, once it's eaten there is no hope of return.

the BOS devs told us from the start they already have the money to fund the development of this game, therefore the money I gave for EA did nothing more than sit in their pocket for future use, to me it seems that their direction is not suited to my investment and I would like to withdraw.

Every time I fired up BOS I was disappointed by certain aspects and simply shut it down soon after and waited for an improvement.....and waited......and waited, now and again there would be a tiny fix to one of the many issues, they seem to happen in secret though, almost as if the issues that many users were at pains to point out and largely were ignored turned out to be fact and they had to fix it in secret so as not to acknowledge the initial reports by these troublesome customers.

So in terms of BOS I didn't really eat the steak.......I'm not even sure it was steak, it certainly didn't arrive how I ordered it, the service was terrible and the restaurant seemed to be the meeting place for all the world biggest morons.

[Hoots]

A steak is a completely different matter, once it's eaten there is no hope of return.

the BOS devs told us from the start they already have the money to fund the development of this game, therefore the money I gave for EA did nothing more than sit in their pocket for future use, to me it seems that their direction is not suited to my investment and I would like to withdraw.

Every time I fired up BOS I was disappointed by certain aspects and simply shut it down soon after and waited for an improvement.....and waited......and waited, now and again there would be a tiny fix to one of the many issues, they seem to happen in secret though, almost as if the issues that many users were at pains to point out and largely were ignored turned out to be fact and they had to fix it in secret so as not to acknowledge the initial reports by these troublesome customers.

So in terms of BOS I didn't really eat the steak.......I'm not even sure it was steak, it certainly didn't arrive how I ordered it, the service was terrible and the restaurant seemed to be the meeting place for all the world biggest morons.


Hey! I've been to that restaurant, not going to say I'm not hurt.

[bongodriver]

There are exceptions obviously, I went there too.

[TWC_Target]

I ordered steak, they brought me chicken, by degrees. Funny how the dish was closer to steak at 70% done than when it was time to dine. Must of been a dinner theater with a magician as the main attraction. Presto chango your steak is now chicken.

I guess that's the lesson to learn, don't place your order until the dish is ready to be served. Almost did it again with ED, thank goodness there was a snafu with there CC app. Hate to have to learn a lesson twice.

[dburne]

I guess that's the lesson to learn, don't place your order until the dish is ready to be served. Almost did it again with ED, thank goodness there was a snafu with there CC app. Hate to have to learn a lesson twice.

Tell me about it, I supported BOS Early Access by buying the Premium version as soon as it went on sale, and likewise supported DCS WWII Kickstarter at the same time, even more money to that.

Need an icon for " kicking myself in the butt"...

[ATAG_NakedSquirrel]

Do you walk into a cinema and watch a film start to credits and demand a refund because it didn't meet your 'expectations'?

Or do you go into an arcade and demand your 50 cents back because the PAC-MAN FM is bullshit, Ghosts can go through walls, and the fucking thing won't let you change the graphics settings! They still haven't added D-server to that game and it's been over 30 years. You figure they would at least fix the damned multiplayer!

I want my quarters back... with interest...

:sobbing:

[bongodriver]

Do you walk in to an Audi dealership to buy a new A4 and happily walk out with a bag of lettuce having paid tens of thousands of £/$ ?

[hnbdgr]

Do you walk into a cinema and watch a film start to credits and demand a refund because it didn't meet your 'expectations'?

Or do you go into an arcade and demand your 50 cents back because the PAC-MAN FM is bullshit, Ghosts can go through walls, and the fucking thing won't let you change the graphics settings! They still haven't added D-server to that game and it's been over 30 years. You figure they would at least fix the damned multiplayer!

I want my quarters back... with interest...

:sobbing:

To be fair if a new pac man early access came out today and cost $90 and the devs would let you have one type of gameplay for early access and another for release.... yeah would be entitled to a refund or at least to be pissed off about it.

Then again if it doesn't seem to be going well with the refund I'd still recommend selling. Steam, Gumtree, Amazon, Ebay, countless forums, there's gotta be someone that will buy it. Can they have a new forum ID once they buy it from you bongo?

[bongodriver]

Yes they can.

[LuseKofte]

Do you walk in to an Audi dealership to buy a new A4 and happily walk out with a bag of lettuce having paid tens of thousands of £/$ ?

And this is comparable, I like to take back my remark about drama
:glaughter:

[bongodriver]

Clearly sarcasm goes waaaay over your head, but it is about as relevant as steaks and movies.

[TWC_Target]

Or do you go into an arcade and demand your 50 cents back because the PAC-MAN FM is bullshit, Ghosts can go through walls, and the fucking thing won't let you change the graphics settings! They still haven't added D-server to that game and it's been over 30 years. You figure they would at least fix the damned multiplayer!


So your comparing an arcade game that costs you one quarter to play (dating myself here) and when you're done you can walk away from it if you don't like it, or plug another quarter in the machine and play again if you so choose, to a game that cost nearly 100 dollars? A game in an arcade on a machine that has the technology that compares less with that of even a console gaming machine, let alone a game made for a more sophisticated machine, a home computer? That's the comparison? By the by, pac man was sooo sophisticated that they even put the machines in dives (ie bars) right next to space invaders. Try spilling beer on your PC.
:thumbsup:
Talk about steak and chicken, or maybe steak and apples.

As for the credits on a movie? I don't judge a movie by the credits, I judge the movie by the movie. I don't even read the credits. But I haven't been in a theater in 2 decades since I've decided they want too much money for their product.

Gee dburne, twice a pre-payer, you just made me feel a whole lot better about myself.

[TheVino3]

This thread is getting ridiculous.

If he wants a refund, thats up to him and 777. If he feels that he has not been delivered the product he invested money into, then he is well within his rights to ask for it back. You can agree or disagree that 777 should oblige him or not. I don't see how its relevant.

He doesn't like the game. Can we please move on?

[bongodriver]

Exactly, not everyone lives in pink fluffy 777 rainbow land, deal with it, suck it up and move on.

[LuseKofte]

Personally I hope he gets it, it will in theory bring me some over 300$ from ED. Good luck, (not sarcasm) ;)

[Revvin]

Personally I hope he gets it, it will in theory bring me some over 300$ from ED. Good luck, (not sarcasm) ;)

Are you Raaid?

[TWC_Target]

Personally I hope he gets it, it will in theory bring me some over 300$ from ED. Good luck, (not sarcasm) ;)

You sunk $300.00 into ED? I didn't think that was possible yet. It cost $75.00 for the deluxe package.

[ATAG_((dB))]

Do you walk in to an Audi dealership to buy a new A4 and happily walk out with a bag of lettuce having paid tens of thousands of £/$ ?

roflmao

[bongodriver]

Personally I hope he gets it, it will in theory bring me some over 300$ from ED. Good luck, (not sarcasm) ;)

if you want to get a refund on ED.......Elite Dangerous? or Eagle Dynamics? then it's nothing to do with me.
you seem a bit pathetic trying to hold me to some bizarre ransom over it.


Back on topic, nothing heard yet, will probably send another email.

[ATAG_Colander]

OK folks, this is getting not only repetitive but is starting to get personal.
For threads addressed at a person, please take it to PMs or another forum.

Used big font to make sure is read.

[aus3620]

Refund!!??
For an Early Access product?

bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

That's gorgeous! I almost thought you were serious.

[Dakpilot]

Refund!!??
For an Early Access product?

bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

That's gorgeous! I almost thought you were serious.

After more than 3000 posts on the forum one would have thought that an idea of how the game was developing would have been understood

I wonder how many other Studios give refunds on an early access game after a year of ownership, or how many people have got refunds on other games after playing, because they did not enjoy it, or it did not live up to their expectations.

How successful were people in trying to get a full refund when a similar game failed to meet expectations and promised features after a year of release?

Cheers Dakpilot

[LuseKofte]

Well I have tested this out, DCS have not yet answered, And them others did, but I preferred they did not,for some reasons they found my email to them funny and laugh polite to my face.
I used phrases like, "the game was not as I expected" ,"I was disappointed" and to DCS I wrote I did not believe they ever would deliver the DORA and 109 so I bought the P-51 as a placeholder. And "I prefer use the non steam version" and "will not use my steam on this game", and "I no longer believe DCS will be a simulator"

I guess DCS think I got valid reasons so they need to think it over.

But if not, are anyone interested in P-51, Huey, and A-10 steam keys. Their price will be telling me how to give away a steam game

[theOden]

Definitively raaaid.

[TWC_Target]

After more than 3000 posts on the forum one would have thought that an idea of how the game was developing would have been understood

I wonder how many other Studios give refunds on an early access game after a year of ownership, or how many people have got refunds on other games after playing, because they did not enjoy it, or it did not live up to their expectations.

How successful were people in trying to get a full refund when a similar game failed to meet expectations and promised features after a year of release?

Cheers Dakpilot

And so when the graphic options went bye bye after we had been able to use them up to, what, 70% completion, was it announced in any DD that this was going to happen? I don't remember that because I'm sure the announcement of such a move would have sparked a firestrom immediately, as the locked down "freebies" did.
The removal of a piece of the game (and for some an important piece) should be thought to be the norm during the developmental stage of said game? Going back to the past for the sake of simplistic reasons as in, we the developers don't want to be bothered by those who can't figure the program out. And then to shut the door on the graphic options when a work around was found. Same with time compression, we had it then it was restricted. I said this before, the proof was in the pudding that the game was in a more advanced state prior to it being "completed". They should've never proved that these options were possible in the game. That was their mistake, they showed us how good it could be then dumbed it down to console status. So we ought to be happy that they removed bits and pieces of the game without a rebate for a game PROVEN to be more than they'll allow. Delivered to us with more than it has now. That is the point to opening up an alpha isn't it, to witness the building of the structure? I guess the options were only scaffolding. Its a good console game, but it limits the capabilities of my PC, so as a PC game it's crap.

[ATAG_Colander]

Definitively raaaid.

I hope this comment was made as a joke and not intended as an insult.

[bongodriver]

After more than 3000 posts on the forum one would have thought that an idea of how the game was developing would have been understood

I wonder how many other Studios give refunds on an early access game after a year of ownership, or how many people have got refunds on other games after playing, because they did not enjoy it, or it did not live up to their expectations.

How successful were people in trying to get a full refund when a similar game failed to meet expectations and promised features after a year of release?

Cheers Dakpilot


Post count is irrelevant, BOS is most definitely not turning out to be the product I expected, I had hoped it might be a success, but the developers seem to have other ideas.

we will see how successful a person can be asking for a refund, it's strange but I thought everyone would be overjoyed at the prospect of me leaving, turns out people miss me so much they need to come and troll me on other forums....sweet.

@LuseKofte, I would also laugh politely at you if you asked me for a refund because you know someone who got a refund on another product.

[theOden]

I hope this comment was made as a joke and not intended as an insult.
Neither actually.
I've read raaaid posts for years and I mostly endup not understanding a single word.
That's what this Kofte managed to do to me too.
Again.

If you find it an insult, I'm not the one to be looked into.

[Dakpilot]

Trolling? LoL I thought that was the whole point of the thread :)

Suck it up man, like the real pilot you are and move on :salute:

worse things happen at sea, and shit happens when you party naked

Cheers Dakpilot

[bongodriver]

My point is proved.

My being a pilot has nothing to do with this thread.
The point of the thread was to ask if anyone has got a refund on BOS, failing that I thought I would relay my own experience at attempting so, so hopefully others have a chance for the same, there are others who like to get refunded and feel the same disappointment and doubts over the future of BOS.

indeed worse things do happen at sea and many other places that bear no relevance here, I haven't partied naked but have been to a few involving various amounts of nakedness......didn't end well for one person, they lost a testicle diving into a bush.

[LuseKofte]

Neither actually.
I've read raaaid posts for years and I mostly endup not understanding a single word.
That's what this Kofte managed to do to me too.
Again.

If you find it an insult, I'm not the one to be looked into.

If it was a insult toward me, it is ok. It got to be less subtile if I am going to take notice. This topic should be seen as a form of oddity. On how a screwed up sim community manage to pi on its own interest. It also shows how Banana Forums got its bad reputation.
Seriously speaking this and many other topics around is a living proof why developers would run away from anything that smells of flight simulators
One thing is the refund he wants , but it is mostly to enlighten his rather subjective opinion on this sim for the 3556 time, just a new way to do it

[bongodriver]

If it was a insult toward me, it is ok. It got to be less subtile if I am going to take notice. This topic should be seen as a form of oddity. On how a screwed up sim community manage to pi on its own interest. It also shows how Banana Forums got its bad reputation.
Seriously speaking this and many other topics around is a living proof why developers would run away from anything that smells of flight simulators
One thing is the refund he wants , but it is mostly to enlighten his rather subjective opinion on this sim for the 3556 time, just a new way to do it

Actually the banana forum is the better example of how the community turned on it's own interest if we are now accepting the theory the community has an effect on the future of a sim.

[TWC_Target]

LuseKofte said, On how a screwed up sim community...

It's our fault the game turned out the way it did. It's our fault the devs didn't listen to the consumers on what would make a better product. It's our fault we can't suck it up and have fun with the stick and ball they provided.:sorry:

[ATAG_Snapper]

Bongo, please drop me a PM if/when you get a final response from the producers re your refund request and I will re-open the thread accordingly.

Cheers,

Snapper :salute:

[bongodriver]

Well, another email today wondering why the process seems to be complicated and then the next reply is from paypal confirming my refund in full.

13962

Job done, I have sucked it up, dealt with it and moved on.

[LuseKofte]

Good work Bongo.

[Archie]

Great news, proves its possible then! Post it at simhq as well, there's a few there looking for a refund.

[TWC_Target]

Good for you, now I'm jealous.: salute:

[bongodriver]

it turned out to be so easy to do, it seemed at first there was some delaying tactics happening but in the end it was fuss free, from my perspective it is a great relief because it means I just don't have to give a crap anymore and we can leave each other in peace.
So if anybody else wants to give it a try hopefully it will be as fuss free.

[Flanker35M]

S!

I just left BoS game and forums, now just watching the comedy unfold. Really priceless to watch the rabid "Defendors of BoS" attack anyone who dares to criticize, using the same old arguments and reasonings. Blindly sucking, swallowing and smiling for more from the devs, going orgastic on every single useless addition to the game. The arrogant attitude of the devs was the final straw for me to just walk out. And was not alone with that, as many RL simmers I know did the same and are not going to purchase the game, at all. The devs can blame "bad community" all they want and make up excuses, but if they walk in to the big boys' park then they have to be up to it or GTFO. I won't ask for a refund on my fully pimped level 10 pilot, will keep the game updated and follow the progress. But that's it. In Soviet Russia the game plays you.

[C.K]

This must be a joke? It would be easier drawing blood from a stone then getting money back from 777. There's a reason that 777 games are known as the money pit :)

[aus3620]

Incredibly generous of 777 I would say.

Not that it will garner any positive feedback from the "haters" over here!

[TheVino3]

Not that it will garner any positive feedback from the "haters" over here!

We're still doing this?

[theOden]

Maybe we should PM you our posts first for official OK before posting them?
You are a hidden moderator here, right?

[bongodriver]

Incredibly generous of 777 I would say.

Not that it will garner any positive feedback from the "haters" over here!

Maybe you should go spread word of their benevolence over there?

[TheVino3]

Maybe we should PM you our posts first for official OK before posting them?
You are a hidden moderator here, right?

No, nothing of the sort. I was just saying that the whole "people who dont like the game are haters" attitude is a pretty baseless one. It's needless to start throwing that around, especially since this thread was simply about a guy getting a refund.

I don't care what you post, as long as you are okay with other people replying to it...

[LuseKofte]

This section , Vino. Have you read it?
99 % is trying to get a riot. I do not care personally but do not even try to say this is a place of objectivity . It simply is not.
I am perfectly fine with the attitude given here, I know I do not get along with this kind of community not here and not over there.
A lot of waisted and misguided passion both ways, but over there they stay on the sim side of it 10% of the time, and that is 100% more than here