View Full Version : After the merge.......
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-07-2014, 10:47
......will the upcoming Spitfire IX cut it against the Dora and the Kurfurst? Or will this be strictly Spitfire XIV country?
Snapper, I am so looking forward to answering that question. Whatever the answer, us Sim guys have a lot to look forward too. ~S~
3./JG51_Heiden
Dec-08-2014, 10:29
On paper the performance doesn't bode well for a Spitfire IX unless any sort of turning engagement occurs, in which case the 109's superior speed and power will be somewhat negated.
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-08-2014, 10:42
Interesting times. I'm getting both Spits, so it's going to be fun finding out. :thumbsup:
Thanks for your replies. :salute:
On paper the performance doesn't bode well for a Spitfire IX unless any sort of turning engagement occurs, in which case the 109's superior speed and power will be somewhat negated.
Guess it's a good thing these things don't play out on paper then :P
Spit IX should still be ok, especially if those 109 wings keep snapping like they do now.
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-08-2014, 13:46
Guess it's a good thing these things don't play out on paper then :P
Spit IX should still be ok, especially if those 109 wings keep snapping like they do now.
Hmmm. Not sure what you mean. If the Kurfurst and the Dora engaged in a turning fight with the Spits to the extent of snapping their wings, then they have already surrendered the initiative anyway. If they use boom & zoom vertical tactics with their superior speed, climb, and dive capabilities to build and maintain the fight initiative, how do they snap their wings?
Hmmm. Not sure what you mean. If the Kurfurst and the Dora engaged in a turning fight with the Spits to the extent of snapping their wings, then they have already surrendered the initiative anyway. If they use boom & zoom vertical tactics with their superior speed, climb, and dive capabilities to build and maintain the fight initiative, how do they snap their wings?
Was a joke about the current status of the 109K-4 and how easily you can pop a wing off. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=134839
SorcererDave
Dec-08-2014, 15:13
It mostly depends on whether the 150 octane fuel will be modelled or not. If not, then I don't think it looks good for the Spit IX competitively speaking. It's a plane designed in 1942 to fight against early Bf109-Gs and Fw190As being pitted against planes from late 1944. If it does have the Merlin 66 engine with 150 octane fuel and 21lbs of boost then I'd say it's got at least a fighting chance in the hands of a comptetent pilot.
@Snapper - The 109K has a bug at present where the wings will snap at about 4Gs, which isn't remotely historically accurate. You can tear a wingtip off simply by going into an evasive Split-S in the 109 at present. But beta is beta and I'm sure it'll be fixed sooner or later.
Personally I continue to hold the opinion that I'd rather see a Tempest V in the game than any of the later Spitfires simply because it's a more competitive machine, but I don't think one is even so much as on the drawing board at the moment. We're going to get a Typhoon from VEAO sooner or later but historically that was a plane that posed more danger to its own pilot than the enemy so I'm not exactly ecstatic with anticipation. It think things will be a bit rough for RAF fans in DCS for a while.
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-08-2014, 16:30
Was a joke about the current status of the 109K-4 and how easily you can pop a wing off. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=134839
Aha! Thanks for the link. :thumbsup:
I haven't been following the 109K posts yet over at DCS, so this was the first I've heard about the breaking wing problem. Knowing DCS, they'll have this fixed quickly.
Chuck_Owl
Dec-08-2014, 16:33
It mostly depends on whether the 150 octane fuel will be modelled or not. If not, then I don't think it looks good for the Spit IX competitively speaking. It's a plane designed in 1942 to fight against early Bf109-Gs and Fw190As being pitted against planes from late 1944. If it does have the Merlin 66 engine with 150 octane fuel and 21lbs of boost then I'd say it's got at least a fighting chance in the hands of a comptetent pilot.
If I had no trouble shooting down Bf.109F-4s over Stalingrad in a LaGG-3, I'm pretty sure I can handle Bf.109K-4s in a Spit IX. :D
It's all about wingmanship.
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-08-2014, 16:36
We'll see how things develop re Spitfire IX. I'm delighted that one will be available, even if it isn't quite up to the performance levels of the late '44 fighters. Especially if down the road Gustavs and 190A's come into being. Unless I'm way off, I believe the Spit XIV would be a formidable opponent for the Kurfurst and the Dora.
Good times ahead, gentlemen! :thumbsup:
ATAG_Snapper
Dec-08-2014, 16:50
If I had no trouble shooting down Bf.109F-4s over Stalingrad in a LaGG-3, I'm pretty sure I can handle Bf.109K-4s in a Spit IX. :D
It's all about wingmanship.
Yes, but that is YOU, Chuck. What about us mere mortals? :-P
:)
ATAG_Endless
Dec-08-2014, 18:58
Knowing how you fly in clod snap I'll see you at 9000m above the earth
It mostly depends on whether the 150 octane fuel will be modelled or not. If not, then I don't think it looks good for the Spit IX competitively speaking. It's a plane designed in 1942 to fight against early Bf109-Gs and Fw190As being pitted against planes from late 1944. If it does have the Merlin 66 engine with 150 octane fuel and 21lbs of boost then I'd say it's got at least a fighting chance in the hands of a comptetent pilot.
Here's the one they are using http://www.mh434.com/
So that is a 66, not sure if it's the 150 or not though. Either way, though I'm sure it won't be a dead duck out there. will keep digging to see if I can find if that one used 150
ATAG_Flare
Dec-08-2014, 23:59
I got the IX from the Kickstarter and will surely buy the XIV when it's out. The XIV will definitely be a better contender against the K-4 and Dora but a good pilot would probably be able to fight on even terms with one of the German planes. I know that I'm going to need the extra horsepower from the XIV for me to survive! :D
flare
ATAG_((dB))
Dec-09-2014, 03:38
Personally I continue to hold the opinion that I'd rather see a Tempest V in the game than any of the later Spitfires simply because it's a more competitive machine, but I don't think one is even so much as on the drawing board at the moment. We're going to get a Typhoon from VEAO sooner or later but historically that was a plane that posed more danger to its own pilot than the enemy so I'm not exactly ecstatic with anticipation. It think things will be a bit rough for RAF fans in DCS for a while.
Really? Everywhere i read it the tempest was used from intercept and ground attack, not as a fighter for a reason.
implicit A
Dec-09-2014, 03:48
info on DCS Normandy map :
"What we are looking for are all German fighter bases in northern France (north of Paris) / west of Calais and all allied airbases in southern England south of London but east of Exeter"
1944.
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135412
12-08-2014
:)
gavagai
Dec-09-2014, 06:27
I would recommend getting comfortable in the weaker aircraft in DCS. It's easy for a mission designer to limit the quantity of first tier fighter aircraft, and you can even take away MW-50 boost from the 109 with the ME. In another year, with the expanded planeset, it's not going to be like Cliffs where 90% of the pilots are in the best Spitfire or the best 109.
Black034
Dec-09-2014, 08:15
Really? Everywhere i read it the tempest was used from intercept and ground attack, not as a fighter for a reason.
Didn't matter, you either ran into the Luftwaffe or they found you.
There's quite some cases of Tempests going for ground attack but running into a Axis fighter sweep.
Personally I don't mind the late-war Spits, Tempest is too scary looking hehe.
~
Tempest vs 190 D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQTfXVqNo9A
Also, if I read Wags post correctly the Normandy map will be rougly the same size as CloD's?
http://canadianonlinegamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Thumbnail-image-622x402.jpg
SorcererDave
Dec-09-2014, 10:46
Really? Everywhere i read it the tempest was used from intercept and ground attack, not as a fighter for a reason.
The Tempest spent a lot of its early service shooting down V1s because it was the fastest piston-engined aircraft in the RAF, but after that was deployed to Europe following D-Day. Towards the end it was put on lots of ground attack missions because of its speed and because the Luftwaffe was so badly beaten anyway. It did, however, nevertheless achieve a 6:1 kill ratio against German single-seat fighters it encountered. There's a fantastic documentary on Youtube in which a Tempest veteran describes how Fw190s would try diving away from them as they were trained to, but would get blown to bits because the Tempest would easily catch up to them and out-turn them.
In fact according to Hubert Lange, an Me 262 pilot "the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest — extremely fast at low altitudes, highly-manoeuvrable and heavily-armed." So yeah, not sure where you got the impression the Tempest was a bad fighter. You were probably thinking of the Typhoon.
I apologise for nerding out like that, but it's basically my favourite fighter from WW2, and yet sadly the only game in which you can fly it at the moment is IL2 1946 with the HSFX mod as far as I know.
edit: I think Black posted part of the documentary I was talking about. If you can find the full thing it's rather good. One of the pilots rather aptly compares the Spitfire and Tempest by saying the Spitfire was like a "finely-crafted swiss watch", whereas the Tempest was "a sports car."
Tempest is too scary looking hehe.
Bit of a monster isn't it? :D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/486SqnVolkers1945.JPG
ATAG_Flare
Dec-09-2014, 11:10
I'm stoked that they're extending the Normandy map to England! And the Spits. By the way, Pman from VEAO said that a Tempest is not planned but perhaps we'll be getting a Typhoon in late 2015-2016 :thumbsup:
flare
SorcererDave
Dec-09-2014, 11:47
Yeah I know, but as I said, the Typhoon was quite literally more dangerous to its own pilots than the enemy. It got relegated to the ground attack role pretty fast. I'll undoubtedly be flying it a lot in DCS when it arrives, but when I do I'll be carrying bombs and rockets, and I won't be looking to pick fights with any of the Luftwaffe fighters.
Foul Ole Ron
Dec-09-2014, 13:58
Here's the one they are using http://www.mh434.com/
So that is a 66, not sure if it's the 150 or not though. Either way, though I'm sure it won't be a dead duck out there. will keep digging to see if I can find if that one used 150
I think it'll probably depend on ED deciding what timeframe they're actually covering. If it's mid-late '44 and over Europe then the Spit IX would more likely to have been a +18lbs version - the Air Defence Great Britain group had gone through conversions in mid-44 but if over Europe I guess we should be looking at the 2nd TAF. If we're talking early '45 over Europe the Spit IX would probably have been a 2nd TAF +25lbs. It looks like a lot of the 2nd TAF started to convert in very late '44 / early '45.
With the Mustang the 8th Air Force converted to 150 grade fuel from mid '44 onward and the 8th cleared the Mustang for 72". The 8th had about 22 fighter groups (think about 115 planes in a group?) and almost all of them had converted over to P-51s by the end of '44 so the 72" Mustang would probably have been pretty common given the relative size of the 8th compared to the smaller, theatre organised 9th, 12th & 15th air forces.
Anyway we'll see what we get next year! Going to be fun no matter what. Hopefully ED works out a way to give mission maker options over the fuel grade used for both sides. In terms of balance and to prevent team stacking I'd probably give the Allies the +25lbs / 72" version given that they would have been far more likely to encounter earlier variants of the 109 by late '44 / early '45. Don't want to end up like BOS where Axis gets stacked up a lot of the time given that the 109 is clearly the much better fighter than the Russian crates.
gavagai
Dec-10-2014, 06:17
Anyway we'll see what we get next year! Going to be fun no matter what. Hopefully ED works out a way to give mission maker options over the fuel grade used for both sides. In terms of balance and to prevent team stacking I'd probably give the Allies the +25lbs / 72" version given that they would have been far more likely to encounter earlier variants of the 109 by late '44 / early '45. Don't want to end up like BOS where Axis gets stacked up a lot of the time given that the 109 is clearly the much better fighter than the Russian crates.
I already tried to point out in this thread that the DCS ME allows you to remove the 109's MW-50 boost. That is an easy way to convert the 109 into something more like a Gustav in DCS. So even if we don't have fuel grade options for the Allied aircraft mission makers have alternative methods for adjusting relative performance.
9./JG52 Ziegler
Dec-10-2014, 08:06
The map is the real key for me since the Kurfurst is still in beta and should get those tender wings fixed. Will it support larger server numbers will be importent. In DCS the aircraft and FM's are as good as any. It is only let down by the map.
It did, however, nevertheless achieve a 6:1 kill ratio against German single-seat fighters it encountered. There's a fantastic documentary on Youtube in which a Tempest veteran describes how Fw190s would try diving away from them as they were trained to, but would get blown to bits because the Tempest would easily catch up to them and out-turn them.
It was definitely used in a fighter role but not at high altitude. If it ends up in DCS it'll be awesome especially as most Normandy stuff was played out at a lower altitude than the USAAF bomber raids etc and this should drag the LW down - same for the XIV. MP tends to be at a lower level anyway. I'll be praying for the Tiffie as there is something about low level fighter-bomber operations that really works for me, dodgy/weak tail notwithstanding.
I have the IX waiting via Kickstarter then I'll get the XIV too. The IX will be competitive but unfortunately will never be able to force a fight as the LW stuff can run.
Hood
LuseKofte
Dec-10-2014, 11:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc9VL50EKHA
Tempest did escort the Moskitos in the Amiens raid against a prison to free resistant people in France. Tempest was frequently used in fightersweeps
I would love to have a Tempest in this environment .
But a combatsims need objects and a map to be complete, so I go for that first
SorcererDave
Dec-10-2014, 13:17
It was definitely used in a fighter role but not at high altitude.
That's true, but it'll still perform well up to 20,000 feet, and combat rarely seems to go any higher than that whenever I've played DCS online with WW2 planes. It's not like a Yak or something that practically stops working past 12,000ft.
Flanker35M
Dec-11-2014, 14:59
S!
I think the Spitfire will be a handful, especially for a hamfisted pilot. Yo-Yo pointed out it will not be the "EZ Mode yank & bank" people have been getting used to in other sims, but requiring careful flying due the very sensitive pitch control. Gonna buy them both, IX and XIV, but waiting more for the P47D :D
ATAG_Flare
Dec-13-2014, 10:07
Now the real question which was a very heated topic over on the DCS forums, is whether there will be a gyro sight or not! I'd vote for yes to include it since the P-51 and Dora both have it and by 1944 most Spitfires were being equipped with the GGS Mk.II
flare
gavagai
Dec-16-2014, 06:54
I turn the 190D-9 gyro sight off and use the fixed reticle. The gyro is worthless because the forward visibility over the nose is terrible. For the Spitfire it could be a little better provided that there is a little room underneath boresight, and because the trajectory of the M2 and HS 20mm is a little flatter than the German MG 131 and MG 151.
SorcererDave
Dec-16-2014, 10:20
I never could get the hang of the gyro sights anyway. Whenever I fly the P-51 I just use the fixed sight together with the old Mk.I Eyeball. Works for me.
Broodwich
Dec-19-2014, 01:32
Tempests were more used for long range low level ground attack over Germany. Strafing mostly trains, as it was their objective to paralyze German logistics in the area to prepare for the final push into Germany. From what i've read, they didn't go too often on pure fighter sweeps. Not because they weren't necessary, but because other planes were amply able to fill that role, and Tempests were not nearly as prevalent as them.
They were excellent fighters, just their abilities placed them in other roles that none other could fill
According to this source http://www.historyofwar.org/subject_RAF_units.html
Tempest used as a multi-purpose machine. Specialized ground-attack aircraft was all the same Typhoon.
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