Team Fusion Update January 23rd 2015 - Real Life

[Mysticpuma]

Hi everyone and welcome to this Friday's update.

Firstly may I (and TF) pay our respects to JTDawg, a great member of our community who encapsulated everything that this Sim and hobby is about.

RAF74_Buzzsaw summed it up perfectly in his post regarding his passing:

""Very sad to hear this news.

My condolences to his family and friends.

"Dawg" was one of the guys who first stepped forward to do the play-testing for TF 3.0, when we were unknowns.

He deserves everyone's thanks for the work he did then.

He was a unique member of this community... everyone knew who he was and recognized his distinct voice and good humour instantly he came on Teamspeak.

He will be missed.

Happy flying Dawg, we know you are up there in the wild blue, lining up another desperate hun.""

For further information and comments, please see this thread:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15128

and to see a tribute video made by Chuck_Owl please click here:


http://youtu.be/jsGjC-n5zkc

http://youtu.be/jsGjC-n5zkc



So, to elaborate on the title of today's update "Real Life". As you probably noticed there has been a break in-between updates of nearly six-weeks. After my last update we had Christmas and a lot of the members took this natural break in the year to sit back and take stock of their 'real lives'.

I don't wish to harp on about this, but everyone in TF is either employed or at College and as such is limited by their own commitments outside of modding and as such TF can be seen to be in a state of flux with members joining, leaving, taking breaks, having vacations, working on their real life employment/projects/lives and family commitments.

Over the last few weeks we have all had a step back from the modding and are currently deciding on a roadmap so that we can get v5.00 out in a realistic timescale while also not impacting on our private lives as much. This isn't a message of "we closing down", it's a message of "we are working out how best to get v5.00 to while not giving the impression that we aren't progressing forward, while also taking into account that we all (in TF) need to keep this as a hobby rather than it becoming a chore". The thing is, once burnout sets in, this no longer becomes a fun hobby, it becomes a chore and when it becomes a chore, there is no fun and it starts to be a millstone. So to keep it 'fun' for TF, we have had an extended break and are now working out the best route to keep it fun, while also completing v5.00 for the benefit of the community.

Behind TF doors work has continued, maybe at a slower pace than normal, but that is for the above reasons....we need to make it enjoyable for us to do and if we lose key members due to burnout, this doesn't only impact on us, it really impacts on the community. So, forgive us for taking an extended break...we are human and we have 'real lives' and for that reason, we are now working out a best way forward to delivering the huge content we have been creating.....but also in a reasonable timescale so that the community doesn't start t fear the worse, that maybe TF is over and done :)

As it stands at the moment, we are just as committed to getting v5.00 out....but we honestly (even with seeing what is being done) can't ive you a date...yet :)

So look, that's not much of a fun update, but it's important that we explain that we are just hobbyists like you with a passion for Flight Sims (WW2 combat ones at-least) and we do want to get this mod out as soon as we can, but we also need time for our own real life work and family.

Okay, so with that understood, work has been continuing :)

Currently TF are working on probably the most anticipated feature (by most of us at-least) and that is the Auto-Updater. It may not seem like much, but this feature will revolutionise our workflow as we will be able to release small updates regularly rather than huge (2-3Gb) updates slowly. The actual logistics of how patches/updates will be released is still in discussion, but once we do get the AU working and released, it will allow us to release (for example) a single aircraft at a time, a cockpit update, a landscape update, etc, etc.

For example, we currently have a rewrite of the English landscape at near RC standard....but.....without the AU, we will have to wait until it is compiled into the huge v5.00 update. However, if we can get the AU finished and released, this feature could be released on it's own without the need for all the other features to be ready. There is a lot of work that we have completed (and a LOT of we work we don't) but if we can get the AU finished and working, it's a possibility that smaller updates could be released, building up to the new theatre for v5.00.


All I can say is, we are working on it....just real life commitments have to take priority.

Okay, so finally to hopefully keep a little enthusiasm going here's a short video showing a little FM testing going on (DM testing is not shown but the power of the bullets is likely to be the subject of revision). This model is intended to have a new cockpit built as and when we get time. Please note, all footage shown in all the videos I post are WiP. It doesn't mean they will be released in the next patch, it means they are WiP and as such subject to much revision and are shown just so you know we aren't sitting idly on our hands :)

Thanks again for your understanding about our taking breaks, here's the video, cheers, MP/TF

The video:


http://youtu.be/HjIs4qT5Ybs

http://youtu.be/HjIs4qT5Ybs

[hnbdgr]

It's here!!!!!!!!

[Teufel]

Expecting AU to be near to us...

[Ohms]

JT would be mightly impressed:thumbsup: The auto updater would be a real break through, as you say would help keep interest going by providing more frequent mini updates to the users. Good luck guys and take what time is needed to recharge.

Ohms

[DUI]

Thanks for the heads-up! Very promising news on the auto updater!

The firepower of the Beaufighter looks impressive. As a blue pilot you better avoid to be in the 12 of this plane "like the devil holy water". :guilty:

[MarLeo]

Take your time. Burnout is a real issue and you shouldn't risk it. Cliffs is already in a very solid state thanks to you. We can wait for TF 5.0.

[ATAG_Septic]

Thanks for the update MP. :thumbsup:

Septic.

[Gromit]

It's a Beau, wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhoooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooo! :-)

Damn I miss that plane from 1946, my absolute favourite!

4x Hispano and 6x.303 that's a lot of KE downrange!

[ATAG_Lolsav]

A Beau.. a Beaufighter. What a breakthrough. A first build from the scratch airplane from TF. Excellent!!!

Also, is it in my eyes or the parts of the planes that were hit were dropping (as they should) from the sky insted of beeing "stuck" there. Unless the recording was offline and there i think it works correctly.

Anyway a great showcase. "The Beau" will make some "snargles" happy im sure. :thumbsup:

[ATAG_Deacon]

MP,

Thanks for the update! And thank you to all of TF for the hours and hours of work
that you do!

:salute:

Deacon

[Continu0]

Thank you for the update MP!

I love the idea of getting the auto-updater before 5.0! I guess that would take some pressure from TF to bring out that genius-godlike patch 5.0 that will save the world;-). After such a long waiting, expectaions will be really high and I believe that would be avoided with smaller, but regular updates.

Also I could imagine that bringing out small regular updates could be more rewarding for TF. At least for me, it is way easier to work for goals that are half a year away than for goals that are 1-2 years away...

Take your time and thank you very much for everything! Since I am having a rather rough time in RL at the moment, I appreciate your work even more!

[ATAG_Flare]

Thanks for the update! The auto updater will be a great addition to TF. I'm looking forwards to everything new that you guys are bringing us!

Flare

[Continu0]

A Beau.. a Beaufighter. What a breakthrough. A first build from the scratch airplane from TF.

aehm... not exactly... you might want to go trough the list of KI-planes again...:D

[Otyg]

Great job! i hope that beast can hold some bombs or torps..

I wish my game looked like your videos--- :ind:

[keeno]

Thanks for the great update, as always it does look amazing.

I look forward to an auto-updater and also smaller patches too. since the last major patch we've had hints of many smaller but none the less superb potential updates that it would be great to have them drip fed to the community and I definitely think it keeps everybody hungry for more.

once again, many thanks for all TF hard work.

Cheers

[heinkill]

Yes! Thass the kite I wanted most!

Thx for the update. From one mod teamer to another there is no easy win in hobby-life balance. You push the release date out too far and you lose both team members and players because of frustration at it taking too long and you being stalled while you wait for someone else to catch up, plus you increase the chances of losing people to RL issues. If you are too ambitious on the scope/timelines and rush things, you get bugged features and bad tempers and people burn out or quit.

I've said it before and I remain convinced, the best solution is to have smaller but more frequent updates rather than the pressure of One Mother of an Update. People can work more at their own pace in smaller working groups.

The TF roadmap could look like (not in any order and at different times)

- the Map
- the Beau
- the Welli
- big bugfix and tweaks
- smaller bugfix and tweaks
- other objects (ships, subs etc)

More than enough to keep the sim alive if just half of these are delivered this year. And it keeps players playing.

Food for thought,

H

PS RIP JDawg

[SlowerBanterSir]

Classic horror movie style: Don't show the monster until the last possible moment -- just show its terrifying effects. :thumbsup:

That Beau looks absolutely awesome. With that and the Wimpy en route, I'm glad I finally learned to fly twin-engines. It'll definitely be worth it.

Awesome work from TF, both in new planes and in the less sexy -- but just as important -- tweaks and fixes. :salute:

[Catseye]

What I'm seeing here is 20mm Hispano Canons which bode well for the next variants of the Spit and Hurri being made available.

Cats . . .

[Black034]

Hope the holidays where good TF guys!

That Beaufighter, guess we got night maps coming our way?

[Osprey]

The Luftwaffe may as well surrender now :D

[Hood]

Always had a soft spot for the Beau. And unless my eyes deceive me the rivers are looking good.

If I knew what was possible it'd be great to second guess the roadmap. In a perfect world I'd say AI improvements plus theatre map plus new planes plus this plus that etc. As it is I'll settle for whatever comes, with much appreciation.

Hood

[Mastiff]

Can I have those bullets in my spitfire please?

[Volunteer]

Team Fusion: you guys rock -- THANK YOU! :thumbsup:

[Chivas]

Thanks TF. IMHO getting dramatic hit, DM feedback, is one of largest draws for users to enjoy a combat flight sim. A few might say its too Hollywood for their tastes, but most gun cam footage I've seen has been quite dramatic.

[hugso]

Wow, you guys really are amazing. Thanks for your hard work making this sim so brilliant. The England map rewrite is interesting. The map is already pretty darn good in my book. Maybe add some railway features?

[TWC_SLAG]

You did it again. You knocked my socks off. A Beaufighter, who would have thought.
I can hardly wait to go up against the 110 and the bombers. And, maybe some time in the future, a nightfighter version with radar?

Thanks,

badfinger

[spartan18a]

Wow now the Luftwaffe really needs the Fw190!!!! [emoji12]

Thanks Team Fusion. This video is dedicated to you all and to our fallen comrade. Really sad news [emoji46]

http://youtu.be/a9V3tZVOfuk

[the_soupdragon]

sad news about JTDawg :( My thoughts go out to his Family.

Damn that pug packs a punch. Nice Beau.

SD

[DoubleStandards]

WOW! Great video :salute:

You guys take as much "me" time as possible please. Last thing we want is for you guys to burn out or start to feel what your doing for the community is a chore. I, for one, can say that without Team Fusions work I wouldn't be flying. Thanks for everything guys and keep up the good work, at your own pace!

[vranac]

Thanks ! LW pilots will stop complaining about radiators for sure :devilish:

[Ekko]

Thank you TF

Can't wait until this Winter is over
Working my behind off and it look´s like TF are in the same prisson :)

[Forager]

Thank you.

I have not got much into COD yet but the work done so far by TF is what sold me.

[ATAG_Lewis]

Thanks for the Update TF...Don't burn out fellas...We can wait...

Wow...the allies have cannons...Top Bananas!!!

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

Thanks ! LW pilots will stop complaining about radiators for sure :devilish:

Yep, I wish our 20mm cannons did that kind of damage! Oh wait they did..........and then they didn't. :-P

[ATAG_Dave]

Great update and also an insight into life for TF. Take your time & keep it fun for yourselves - the work you already did has given us a great game to play for which I'm genuinely thankful.

:salute:

[Skoshi_Tiger]

So what is the correct procedure for transferring to Beaufighter squadron?

Thanks for the update guys! Hope you all had a great break.

[Screamadelica]

Thanks for the update. Great work!

The Beaufighter will be awesome, when you get those squadron transfer papers Skoshi, put me down as well. Now, if we can just manage to get a Mosquito......:devilish:

I like the idea of the auto updater, as Heinkill says it allows for smaller and more manageable patching. Thanks to everyone on Team Fusion for all their hard work, without you Cliffs Of Dover would not be what it is today.

All the best, and have a pint, cheers, Scream.

[Roblex]

A genuine question from someone who does not understand....

Why does the DM need doing when the aircraft is already available as AI and thus already capable of being shot down? Are the default DMs too strong/weak or just not detailed enough? Same goes for the cannons; if 109 pilots are already complaining that the Beaus cannon are more effective than theirs does that mean the default settings are too effective and it needs to be toned down like the 109s were?

Meh. I don't care if they get toned down, there are four of them and 6 Brownings to back them up :-P

Of course before we get too excited we should bear in mind that all we have seen is a bodge to allow us to control the flying surfaces and guns. The cockpit is the difficult part and could take a while so Blue can relax for a bit longer :D

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

A genuine question from someone who does not understand....

Why does the DM need doing when the aircraft is already available as AI and thus already capable of being shot down? Are the default DMs too strong/weak or just not detailed enough? Same goes for the cannons; if 109 pilots are already complaining that the Beaus cannon are more effective than theirs does that mean the default settings are too effective and it needs to be toned down like the 109s were?

Meh. I don't care if they get toned down, there are four of them and 6 Brownings to back them up :-P

Of course before we get too excited we should bear in mind that all we have seen is a bodge to allow us to control the flying surfaces and guns. The cockpit is the difficult part and could take a while so Blue can relax for a bit longer :D

Entire damage and weapons system is being looked at.

All aircraft.

[spartan18a]

I really liked the damage model from the old Il2 1946. I don't know if it is kind of science fiction but it was spectacular!!!! I wonder which way was the historical one!!!!!

Now I must confess that is a bit dull ...

[Clown]

Fantastic as always. :thumbsup:

[II/JG54_Cule]

Great update.

The guys from HSFX mod for the old IL2 1946 managed to get an auto updater completed. It might be helpful if you could contact them to speed up the work. I remember the AU was one of the features of HSFX which made it stand out against their mod competition, the Ultrapack.

it said:

This program automatically updates your HSFX installation with the latest files. This is a small C++ program, that when run, checks on the HSFX master
server for a list of HSFX files and their MD-5 checksums and compares them with your IL-2 files. If there is a difference in the MD-5 checksums, the updater
downloads the new files to your computer and copies them to the correct folders and overwrites the old files.

[JG4_Widukind]

The Autoupdater is an important step.I am also glad that the RAF now also gets bombers and fighter-bombers, which makes the card racks the seminars and gameplay much interesting.
The JG4 will in future have a few important things here in the forum.
It contains bugs and Features.Im moment we still collect these things.

Thank you for your update and TF work.
The things you have described (REALIVE) I know only too well.

[hnbdgr]

Entire damage and weapons system is being looked at.

All aircraft.

I approve of this message. :)

It is a longshot but any chance the collisions are actively being looked at? Or is that bit still being looked for as it were..?

[Lister_of_Smeg]

A flyable Beaufighter! You guys just made my day :thumbsup:

She has to be one of my favourite WW2 aircraft and a real unsung hero of the war.

There is an excellent documentary on YT that I recommend to any 'Beau' fans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psUvAUw37D8

[Leifr]

I approve of this message. :)

It is a longshot but any chance the collisions are actively being looked at? Or is that bit still being looked for as it were..?

Wasn't there a comment about this in the last video (Cause and Effect)? I'm sure we saw two aircraft colliding and them both coming out of it missing a wing or two.

[9./JG52 Ziegler]

A genuine question from someone who does not understand....

Why does the DM need doing when the aircraft is already available as AI and thus already capable of being shot down? Are the default DMs too strong/weak or just not detailed enough? Same goes for the cannons; if 109 pilots are already complaining that the Beaus cannon are more effective than theirs does that mean the default settings are too effective and it needs to be toned down like the 109s were?

Meh. I don't care if they get toned down, there are four of them and 6 Brownings to back them up :-P

Of course before we get too excited we should bear in mind that all we have seen is a bodge to allow us to control the flying surfaces and guns. The cockpit is the difficult part and could take a while so Blue can relax for a bit longer :D

I was just kidding around Roblex. Actually MP said "(DM testing is not shown but the power of the bullets is likely to be the subject of revision)." in the initial post. :thumbsup:

[ATAG_Ribbs]

I think ATAG_Ohms said it best, JTDawg would be proud of what you guys have done and are continuing to do with this Sim. S! TF


A flyable Beaufighter! You guys just made my day :thumbsup:

She has to be one of my favorite WW2 aircraft and a real unsung hero of the war.

There is an excellent documentary on YT that I recommend to any 'Beau' fans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psUvAUw37D8

@ 29.40 in this video, I think this quote says it all .. :)

"The worst place to be was in front of an angry Beau fighter,because you are likely to get a dose of lead poisoning"
Great update as always MP!

Did my eyes deceive me or did I see damage to the ship when the Beau was strafing it! I don't recall that ever happening or being possible.. correct me if I'm wrong.


Ribbs

[DUI]

It already is possible to sink corvettes with blue cannons. :salute:

[hnbdgr]

Wasn't there a comment about this in the last video (Cause and Effect)? I'm sure we saw two aircraft colliding and them both coming out of it missing a wing or two.

Well my attention span is like that of the gnat :D

But I just went through the vid from last update. I believe the bit you're referring to was part of the special effects showcase, there wasn't any accompanying text that would say "new collisions" or similar.

[Vlerkies]

Thanks for the update, looks sweet and devastating at the same time. I might meander across to to the champagne region, find a nice cool cosy little cellar and commit suicide by drowning myself with Frances finest.
:)



"The worst place to be was in front of an angry Beau fighter,because you are likely to get a dose of lead poisoning"
Great update as always MP!

Did my eyes deceive me or did I see damage to the ship when the Beau was strafing it! I don't recall that ever happening or being possible.. correct me if I'm wrong.


Ribbs

The power of these 20mm and even 30mm canon and their potential explosive power is taken lightly.
The TF update vid seems much closer to the truth and as that chap indicated, get in front of it and you will be in a world of hurt.


http://youtu.be/JVxtJULJ0KA

Not much info on this vid, but looking at the hits, it was std ammo AP then lastly HE. Quite a devastating difference.

http://youtu.be/7Q4VuoX0Mqs

My plane of choice is the E1, so no real dog in the race here, but I would welcome those types of damages as something more correct.
I keep getting told I must not get shot to stop myself from burning. Well I feel the same way about canon.

The footage looks awesome, MP's game graphics is incredible.

[ChiefRedCloud]

The reality of life is very sobering to our rather small gender as shown with JD's passing. It's good that there are those who will remember him.

I agree with the majority here that where as the new plane is beautiful, the jewel is the autoupdater. Thanks for all the hard work by all concerned. Great video PM.

And Spartan, I loved your video tribute. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Chief

[Black034]

the jewel is the autoupdater.

Not to be a pessimist, but aren't you guys afraid this might be a way for bugs to sneak in easier?
No clue how you guys handle the development and testing though so take this mark lightly!

Just wondering.

[Vlerkies]

Not to be a pessimist, but aren't you guys afraid this might be a way for bugs to sneak in easier?
No clue how you guys handle the development and testing though so take this mark lightly!

Just wondering.
The auto updater for like DCS is a godsend.

All the subtle little fixes and changes can be expedited to the community much faster, rather than having them banked and then a multi GB update required.

It should make it easier to control as well, and monitor the impact the mod/changes make. Easier to reverse or fine tune as well.
An auto updater will certainly make a lot of folks lives a lot easier.

Just look at how many threads there are about updating COD as it is now and the troubles some folks have patching up.
Definitely way more positives than any negatives that can be thought of.
:thumbsup:

[IIJG27Rich]

Yes! Thass the kite I wanted most!

Thx for the update. From one mod teamer to another there is no easy win in hobby-life balance. You push the release date out too far and you lose both team members and players because of frustration at it taking too long and you being stalled while you wait for someone else to catch up, plus you increase the chances of losing people to RL issues. If you are too ambitious on the scope/timelines and rush things, you get bugged features and bad tempers and people burn out or quit.

I've said it before and I remain convinced, the best solution is to have smaller but more frequent updates rather than the pressure of One Mother of an Update. People can work more at their own pace in smaller working groups.

The TF roadmap could look like (not in any order and at different times)

- the Map
- the Beau
- the Welli
- big bugfix and tweaks
- smaller bugfix and tweaks
- other objects (ships, subs etc)

More than enough to keep the sim alive if just half of these are delivered this year. And it keeps players playing.

Food for thought,

H

PS RIP JDawg

The Map. I want to get out of France/Channel/England so bad Downton Abbey and Last Tango In Halifax isn't that much fun anymore and that's saying something. :ind:

[Gromit]

Thanks for the update, looks sweet and devastating at the same time. I might meander across to to the champagne region, find a nice cool cosy little cellar and commit suicide by drowning myself with Frances finest.
:)



The power of these 20mm and even 30mm canon and their potential explosive power is taken lightly.
The TF update vid seems much closer to the truth and as that chap indicated, get in front of it and you will be in a world of hurt.


http://youtu.be/JVxtJULJ0KA

Not much info on this vid, but looking at the hits, it was std ammo AP then lastly HE. Quite a devastating difference.

http://youtu.be/7Q4VuoX0Mqs

My plane of choice is the E1, so no real dog in the race here, but I would welcome those types of damages as something more correct.
I keep getting told I must not get shot to stop myself from burning. Well I feel the same way about canon.

The footage looks awesome, MP's game graphics is incredible.

That last video is a very poor demonstration, aircraft are not made of unsupported thin alloy sheet, it's about as close to a wing as a coke can!
There's plenty of film of real cannon hitting aircraft, and even with the Beau with four considerably more powerful cannons than the MGFF, it should not be chopping tails and other parts off with ease, most of the damage caused by cannons is by shrapnel, but everyone playing games seem to focus on the bang, which with any 20mm is rather small anyway!

[Vlerkies]

That last video is a very poor demonstration, aircraft are not made of unsupported thin alloy sheet, it's about as close to a wing as a coke can!
There's plenty of film of real cannon hitting aircraft, and even with the Beau with four considerably more powerful cannons than the MGFF, it should not be chopping tails and other parts off with ease, most of the damage caused by cannons is by shrapnel, but everyone playing games seem to focus on the bang, which with any 20mm is rather small anyway!

Cool bananas then bud. Whatever you say :faint:

[spartan18a]

The reality of life is very sobering to our rather small gender as shown with JD's passing. It's good that there are those who will remember him.

I agree with the majority here that where as the new plane is beautiful, the jewel is the autoupdater. Thanks for all the hard work by all concerned. Great video PM.

And Spartan, I loved your video tribute. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Chief
My pleasure [emoji12] I have to improve my aim a bit MUCH more though.

[Vadr]

Great work so far Team Fusion. You guys do what you need to with the work/life balance. We'll wait. :D

Auto-updater sounds very cool.

:salute:

[|450|Devil]

Happy New Year to TF. You guys are awesome and I wish you all the best with your efforts in keeping Cliffs of Dover at the forefront of WWII slight sims. Your work is much appreciated by the community.

[Salmo]

<snip> ... Of course before we get too excited we should bear in mind that all we have seen is a bodge to allow us to control the flying surfaces and guns. The cockpit is the difficult part and could take a while so Blue can relax for a bit longer :D

Agh ... Umh .... actually, blue should be very afraid :devilish:

http://i.imgur.com/EkLgawX.jpg

[Salmo]

<snip> ... Did my eyes deceive me or did I see damage to the ship when the Beau was strafing it! I don't recall that ever happening or being possible.. correct me if I'm wrong. Ribbs

Well spotted mate :thumbsup: TF has shown dynamic ship damage (pieces flying off ships) in a few of the past updates!

[ATAG_Lolsav]

Agh ... Umh .... actually, blue should be very afraid :devilish:

http://i.imgur.com/EkLgawX.jpg

I just wanted to be the first to repost the screenshot :)

[istruba]

Can I have those bullets in my spitfire please?

Can I have those hispanos installed on my 109 ? Because my MG/FF's seems little bb guns near those hispanos.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

any new info on mr wellington?

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

I just wanted to be the first to repost the screenshot :)

That is only a testbed cockpit for FM creation purposes, it is not the real cockpit.

[Roblex]

Without question the best campaign on the old IL2 was the beaufighter one. I think it was called Bush Pigs. You start lost in a thunderstorm at night then your engines fail just as you spot a beach by the light of the lightning and as you glide in you see it is an abandoned airfield. There then follows a fun storyline as you begin to explore the surroundings while shooting up Japanese assets and hiding from passing patrols until you pick up a signal from a nearby carrier and make a daring dash for freedom with the IJN on your tail. Great fun.

[Gromit]

Can I have those hispanos installed on my 109 ? Because my MG/FF's seems little bb guns near those hispanos.

You have to wait for the MG151 to approach the hitting power of the Hispano, the MGFF is after all a lightweight cannon with a lower velocity and rate of fire, on the mike Williams site is a photograph of the cannon and MG rounds next to each other , http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/an_introduction_to_collecting_20.htm ,just a look at the Hispano round shows how much propellant was carried in the rather large cartridge case coupled to a longer barrel = more KE and armour penetration, bear in mind it's still a 20mm however, not an 88!

[istruba]

You have to wait for the MG151 to approach the hitting power of the Hispano, the MGFF is after all a lightweight cannon with a lower velocity and rate of fire, on the mike Williams site is a photograph of the cannon and MG rounds next to each other , http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/an_introduction_to_collecting_20.htm ,just a look at the Hispano round shows how much propellant was carried in the rather large cartridge case coupled to a longer barrel = more KE and armour penetration, bear in mind it's still a 20mm however, not an 88!

I know that hte MG/FF were somewhat bad and used until better cannons were developed (MG151), but I thought the MG/FFM with the minengeschoss would even out a bit. But no matter what, the cannons in game seems to lack that destructive power. Sometimes those spits soak sooooo much bullets and continue to fly like nothing happened its not even funny. A revision on DM would be very much appreciated.

And before those reds come bashing on me you can also see that with the G50, it just eats .303s for breakfast. It cant be only a coincidence.

[Vlerkies]

You have to wait for the MG151 to approach the hitting power of the Hispano, the MGFF is after all a lightweight cannon with a lower velocity and rate of fire, on the mike Williams site is a photograph of the cannon and MG rounds next to each other , http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/an_introduction_to_collecting_20.htm ,just a look at the Hispano round shows how much propellant was carried in the rather large cartridge case coupled to a longer barrel = more KE and armour penetration, bear in mind it's still a 20mm however, not an 88!

No issues there at all.
The Hispano's had higher rate of fire and muzzle velocity which would make it easier getting rounds on target than with the Jerry cannon's of the day.
All that aside, 3 or 4 20mm or 30mm cannon rounds hitting a fighter of the time would certainly ruin your day, no matter who was shooting at who.

The lesson to be learned, don't get in front of it.

[Lister_of_Smeg]

@ 29.40 in this video, I think this quote says it all .. :)

"The worst place to be was in front of an angry Beau fighter,because you are likely to get a dose of lead poisoning"
Great update as always MP!


Ribbs

Or even better were the guys complaining that they had been strafed by a Beau by mistake. The pilot replied "You couldn't have been,you're still alive" :)

[Gromit]

No issues there at all.
The Hispano's had higher rate of fire and muzzle velocity which would make it easier getting rounds on target than with the Jerry cannon's of the day.
All that aside, 3 or 4 20mm or 30mm cannon rounds hitting a fighter of the time would certainly ruin your day, no matter who was shooting at who.

The lesson to be learned, don't get in front of it.

Without a doubt!

Think about it logically, when an AP cannon round impacts on anything solid (engine block etc) it's going to punch through and break any working parts inside, that's going to stop an engine which is turning at 2000rpm+, the internal parts are going to fragment and break up as they reciprocate and rotate (anyone who has a had rod failure on a race engine can testify to the mess it makes)!

A HE round when it bursts flings high velocity fragments in a ellipse radial pattern damaging everything they hit, anything in the way that carries fluid or pressurised air is going to be punctured, landing gear and tyres will be damaged and deflated, ammo belts buckled and sometimes broken, humans are going to suffer fragment wounds, any linkages are going to be damaged, lets be blunt there's a lot of equipment and mechanical parts around the engine and inner wings/cockpit area!

Conversely hits to the rear fuselage/tail are going to find less to damage as few aircraft have anything back there, but what these little 20mm rounds should not be doing is blowing wings/tails off aircraft as there is far too much structure to sever or damage and the blast radius of a 20mm is quite small!

Which brings me to another issue, if you have damage to a wing for instance, you should not be able to pull high g manoeuvres as your lift is now asymmetrical, your going to yaw considerably with the induced drag and your going to roll toward the damaged wing as it is producing less lift, an aircraft should be trimmed and balanced, any imbalance will make the aircraft very difficult to fly, we don't see that, but then again it's a game, so I suppose we should just be thankful for the level of complexity we have and not expect miracles!

[Vlerkies]

Interestingly I found this comment by Tony Williams,

15167

Never the less, to much conflicting information and hearsay on the net.
Time to add to my book collection with some ammo books.

I have seen 20's fired, and I do not think it is totally inconceivable that they could critically damage a wing.

This from Conflict of Eagles.
15162 15163

The Decisive Duel
15165

edit: btw, Kent's crate was a Spitfire MkIIB fitted with 20mm's (Spitfire P8189). The same plane (flown by another pilot the following day) was involved in a midair, both pilots ok.

[Catseye]

. . . . . revision on DM would be very much appreciated.

Speaking from experience on TF 4.0 - this is the real issue and as I understand it is now being further evaluated and adjusted for TF 5.0 including some weapons adjustments.

The information on the weapons for the most part is accurate according to WWII specs. What has to be further adjusted is the damage model to structures including substructures on the different aircraft. A bit of a minefield and requires a lot of testing and evaluation. Imagine looking at a list of numbers and trying to determine which ones apply to the skin, then spars/frame, then substructures such as cables, hydraulics or even cylinder heads (and the big one - fuel tanks, rads and armor plating). Then apply coefficients of damage relative to the type of bullet being shot and the energies applied and adjusted within each sub component that can then be ported over to the graphics modelling part for visual representation.

Quite a bit of sleuthing indeed!

Cheers,
Cats . . .

[ATAG_Bliss]

I know that hte MG/FF were somewhat bad and used until better cannons were developed (MG151), but I thought the MG/FFM with the minengeschoss would even out a bit. But no matter what, the cannons in game seems to lack that destructive power. Sometimes those spits soak sooooo much bullets and continue to fly like nothing happened its not even funny. A revision on DM would be very much appreciated.

And before those reds come bashing on me you can also see that with the G50, it just eats .303s for breakfast. It cant be only a coincidence.

I don't think anyone is going to come bashing on you. There are some DM issues. But as far as DM is concerned, aiming matters. I know there are other sims out there where you simply hit a structure "X" number of times and the entire structure fails (like a wing, engine, or w/e) for example. Those are very simple. There are tons of great players out there in Cliffs that have their gun platform setup perfectly to how they play, and they can bring down damn near any plane in the game with a short burst. That's the whole beauty of Cliffs in the damage model department, because just like in real life, it doesn't matter how many bullets hit the plane, it matters where they hit.

Any spitfire can take down a G50 with a single bullet to the pilot, or a quick burst to the motor. On top of that, you can also aim for the control cables and render it completely useless. But .303's aren't going to saw off the wings. And even if you wanted to, you'd have to be taking out a structural point on that wing, a wing spar etc. If you simply throw a bunch of lead at the entire surface area of the wing, the large majority of it is going to go right through it.

But check out some of the compilation videos out there. There's plenty on both sides. And the really really good pilots, the guys with 1000's of hours under their belts, the guys that have their load-outs, vertical and horizontal gun platforms finely tuned to their style, will take out any plane in the game because they know exactly where the particular plane they are aiming at is weakest. And they will do it in short order. And because of this, a good pilot, even in the most disadvantaged of situations might be able to avoid going down just because they are stopping the other player from being able to hit something fatal to the plane's survival.

But to see the beauty of the DM, you gotta fly it for a while. I'm sure there are plenty of folks that try and give up because they are used to other games. But once you get it figured out and realize where you need to be aiming, etc., it is bar none the most rewarding fighting I've ever done in any flight sim I've ever played.

[Continu0]

I know that hte MG/FF were somewhat bad and used until better cannons were developed (MG151), but I thought the MG/FFM with the minengeschoss would even out a bit. But no matter what, the cannons in game seems to lack that destructive power. Sometimes those spits soak sooooo much bullets and continue to fly like nothing happened its not even funny. A revision on DM would be very much appreciated.

And before those reds come bashing on me you can also see that with the G50, it just eats .303s for breakfast. It cant be only a coincidence.

Check out Vids from JG4_Karaya on youtube. He is a squadmate of mine and I have no idea how he does it, but he is perfectly fine with his weapons... I guess 90% of the time he shots, he hits, and 50% of his shots are 1-burst-kills. He just set up a new record. 7.22 kills in a flight, iirc...
Guess it`s training, training and training again...

[spartan18a]

What's his convergence? That could be first step to learn from him ....


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[Continu0]

What's his convergence? That could be first step to learn from him ....


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afaik the historical one (200/200) for MG´s and (v:400/h:200) for the canons...

[spartan18a]

Good. I'm gonna go for that and try it out. Thanks!!


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[InvaderZim]

Veeeerrrrrryyyyyyy Interessssting! Blue bombers will be happy to wait for the release.:)

[Mudcat]

Can't wait for the day that I don't have to take up a Blennie and pretend I'm a heavy fighter :)

[BKellem]

TF thanks for all your hard work. Truely amazing. I'm not looking forward to the Beaufighter being on my six. YIKES!!

[Osprey]

I've come here to beg TF for another little update.:recon:


Pleeeeeeeaaaassseeee! :D

[Mysticpuma]

two-weeks ;)

[Taxman]

two-weeks ;)

On boy, here we go!!!!!! let the speculation begin :popcorn2:

[ATAG_TCP]

Lookin guud ;)
I never got a chance to meet JT as I havn't been on here much. I am however sad that another person has departed from this earth.
Rest In Peace, God will be with you in the heavens soon. :goodluck:

[Baffin]

Great work!

[Tonester]

Great update...whats that music? It really soul stirring