Team Fusion Update - Feb 13th 2015 - A few more bits and pieces

[Mysticpuma]

So here we have today's update, just a little late due to the server being down for maintenance.

Now as I detailed in the last update real life has to take priority of this hobby and the start of the year has been a challenge for a chunk of the TF members and as such work isn't progressing particularly fast...but it is progressing.

Due to the nature of the way the team works, members are able to work on their own areas and also help in others but eventually it will reach a bottleneck where a feature has to be created or progressed for others to continue and that is where parts of the MOD currently are. It's not ideal but it's the way we work and have worked and eventually the flow will start again and progress move much faster again.

So on with today's update. As I mentioned work is slow but steady and as such most of the progress we are seeing is in the 3D work.

Firstly here is work being created on the Blenheim to improve it for our players. The work is detailed and intensive for our modeller but the attention to detail I hope you'll agree is worthwhile? :)

15532 15533 15534 15535

15536 15537 15538 15539

Next a look at the work that is continuing on the Wellington cockpit. The details are certainly starting to show how nice it will look once you get a chance to take to the skies in her :)

15545 15540 15541 15542 15543

And just a quick image of the high def. glim lamp :)

15544

Now, hand on heart, there are 3D model images I would love to add here but after conversations with the leadership it's been decided that we should hold off a little longer until we are ready to announce the new theatre. Honestly behind the scenes even TF members were buzzing with excitement at the new aircraft (yes 'new') and the model is looking truly stunning.

Another of the aircraft in Cliffs already has had a cockpit donated by a community member and the polygon count was vast. This is steadily being reduced to allow it to be included but once in it will be another great aircraft for players to enjoy :)

Similarly there are a lot of 3D models that are and have been created for the new theatre, but I/we can't show these in any updates until we are ready to announce it, but it will be worth the wait when we announce it as we'll have a lot of work to show-off :)

Work is continuing on the British Landscape and the new theatre landscape/textures/details. The new theatre is currently having original WW2 maps overlaid on it and the details added as accurately as possible. Again, once we are ready to announce the theatre this detail will be shown in screenshot WiP and you'll see just how intensive it is.

Other work continues while some is on hold while our members deal with real-life work and hone-life. We are dedicated to getting v5.00 out but there just isn't a timescale we can offer you yet, we have lots of work to go into it, lots completed, lots WiP and some needing help but we will get there, so keep the faith!

As always, here is the bugtracker information compiled and supplied by Artist:

From the Team Fusion Bugtracker (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de)

The bugtracker (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/projects/il2clodtf) keeps accumulating data: Since the last published update on December, 12th, 26 new users brought the total up to 827 registered users of which 94 have been active since then. We currently have 165 open issues (113 bugs and 52 feature requests). 2 have already been resolved with patch 4.312 and 17 are currently in progress (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/projects/il2clodtf/issues?set_filter=1&f[]=status_id&op[status_id]=%3D&v[status_id][]=2&f[]=&c[]=tracker&c[]=status&c[]=priority&c[]=subject&c[]=author&c[]=updated_on&c[]=category&c[]=votes_value&group_by=) to be fixed or implemented.

23 new issues have been raised since the last update, among them are (no judgment implied): Reported Bug #729 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/729): "RAF Gravesend runway too long for 1940 + improvements" (New) Reported Bug #726 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/726): "Spline Roads Textures" (New) Reported Bug #724 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/724): "He-111 H-2/P-2: incorrect instalation of motor pump" (New) Reported Bug #722 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/722): "Ju 88 A-1: "Kursgeberrose" and "Kursrose" of the "Kurszeiger" are erroneous reversed" (New) Reported Bug #718 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/718): "Ju-88: Sight cannot be moved to the left and to right" (Feedback)

The issues with the highest (summary) vote currently are:
44: #581 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/581): "RAF fighter engines incorrectly start cold in Multiplayer" (New) 37: #614 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/614): "Large cloud formations do not appear in replay of track (.TRK) files" (New) 34: #602 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/602): "Defensive AI Gunner Skill Levels Set Too High" (New) 32: #610 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/610): "Navigational Illumination Functionality: Smudge pots, Glim Lamps" (In Progress)

There are a number of issues set on "Feedback". We kindly ask the authors to respond:
#489 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/489): "All Static Objects should have a destroyed model #604 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/604): "Blenheim: fuel cocks incorrectly labeled #669 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/669): "Bf 110: Navigational Lights #670 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/670): "Bf 110: Landing Lights #707 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/707): "Map near Folkestone #716 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/716): "Texture #718 (http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/718): "Ju-88: Sight cannot be moved to the left and to right

We invite all pilots to participate in the bugtracker either by reporting bugs, requesting features, and/or vote on issues. But before you do anything, please read the guidelines and FAQ here: http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/projects/il2clodtf/boards/4
===

This will be my final update for a while as I have to step away for 2-3 months to work on my Checkertails Documentary, Part 3, "The Last Voices of the Checkertail Clan" and this is going to by very time consuming. The 325th Fighter Group will be having it's 70th and final ever reunion at Tyndall Airforce base (Florida) in October and I need to prepare narration and video to illustrate the interviews I have captured since 2007 of which 8 veterans no-longer survive.

Currently I am unsure of who will be giving the next update or what it will contain but I do aim to return once I have finished my own work.

This isn't goodbye from me but I'd like to thank the community for understanding my need to take a break while I concentrate on this long-term project I have a personal interest in completing.

Salute, Neil "Mysticpuma" Pugh

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

good info thanks, now it will be a good weekend. thanks tf

[Chuck_Owl]

That Wellington cockpit looks FAN-TAS-TIC!!!!

And that new Blennie turret looks like it means business. Very nice. :D

[LBR=H.Ostermann]

S!

Nice! Well done guys!

Wellington Cockpit is very beautiful, Blenheim turret are impressive.

:thumbsup:

[Black034]

TF > everything else available.

:nw:

[heinkill]

Thx for the news and good luck w your project Neil!

PS why be so shy about the new theatre? Everyone knows it is NEW GUINEA...

H

[ATAG_yotheguy]

Nicely done everyone! Hope I can be of some help with my (______) model :salute:

[ATAG_Septic]

Thanks for the brilliant update MP old chap!

I hope your project goes well.

Septic.

[71st_AH_Eagle]

Well, WOW! I am so glad that I'll finally get some decent defense for in a Blennie. Going to make my sneak attacks a lot easier. :-P The Wellington looks very nice and I can't wait to bomb the Germans with it.

Hopefully I'll be in the skies tonight. I don't have too much homework for this weekend and I'm already ahead a good amount so it'll be fun to fly after not be able to fly.

For the new aircraft that wasn't shown, I have a few suspicions on it. My current primary guess would have to be the Martlet (F4F Wildcat). :D But I will take what ever Team Fusion brings. I am so thankful for them continuing the dream. I remember one day, long ago back when IL-2 Cliffs of Dover was released, I was talking with Bliss and we were talking about the potential of this simulator. Thank you for making the dream become reality and hopefully sometime soon, I can be a part of you guys. Thank you.

Cheers,
Eagle

[DUI]

Stunning Wellington cockpit! :thumbsup:

Thanks for the update!

[ChiefRedCloud]

Good show Puma and TF.


This will be my final update for a while as I have to step away for 2-3 months to work on my Checkertails Documentary, Part 3, "The Last Voices of the Checkertail Clan" and this is going to by very time consuming. The 325th Fighter Group will be having it's 70th and final ever reunion at Tyndall Airforce base (Florida) in October and I need to prepare narration and video to illustrate the interviews I have captured since 2007 of which 8 veterans no-longer survive.


Is this open to anyone to attend or is it by invitation only? I might be interested in attending if the wife is up to it. And if there's anything I can do to help you with your project on the Checkered Tails, let me know.

Chief

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

For the new aircraft that wasn't shown, I have a few suspicions on it. My current primary guess would have to be the Martlet (F4F Wildcat). :D

No, that is not the aircraft MP is mentioning... although we are also not ruling out the Wildcat/Martlet as a future type. (not TF 5.0)

[dburne]

Sounding great MP, thanks for the update and best of luck in your break!

[71st_AH_Eagle]

No, that is not the aircraft MP is mentioning... although we are also not ruling out the Wildcat/Martlet as a future type. (not TF 5.0)

Aww. :doh: So close yet so far. I'll figure it out. :-P One question: Is it a brand new aircraft that is not in the game or is it a new variant?

Cheers,
Eagle

[Mysticpuma]

New build, not a variant.

Chief, anyone can attend but there will be an itinerary. Best join the 325th Checkertails on FB for all the news.

At most we may get 5-6 veterans if lucky :)

[71st_AH_Eagle]

New build, not a variant.

I shall figure it out before official news is relased. :-P Anyways, good luck with the Checkertails movie (I think). If you need any help, I can try to help if you want.

Cheers,
Eagle

[ATAG_Dave]

Thanks MP for the excellent update and thanks to all at TF for their on-going hard work :salute:

[ATAG_Lolsav]

Thank you for the update Neil. i will be waiting eagerly for the "Checkertails part III". Saw the others and i for me it was a stellar job. I dont expect anyhthing less from the next one. And im sure you are going to deliver since its done with passion and the utmost respect.

S! We will wait for your return!

[71st_AH_Gamecock (XR-G)]

TF > everything else available.

:nw:


+1

[ElGringo]

Nice work TF the Wellington cockpit already looks amazing!
Do you guys intend to introduce some later versions of the bf 110 also?

[ElGringo]

No, that is not the aircraft MP is mentioning... although we are also not ruling out the Wildcat/Martlet as a future type. (not TF 5.0)

Some Italian plane to go with the new theater?:-P

[Chuck_Owl]

Some Italian plane to go with the new theater?:-P

Nah, the Axis already has the Ju-88, Ju-87, He-111, Br.20, G-50, Bf.109, Bf.110... while the Allies have the Hurricane, Spitfire, Tiger Moth and the Blenheim. It's about bloody time the RAF gets some love.

[ElGringo]

Nah, the Axis already has the Ju-88, Ju-87, He-111, Br.20, G-50, Bf.109, Bf.110... while the Allies have the Hurricane, Spitfire, Tiger Moth and the Blenheim. It's about bloody time the RAF gets some love.

You already can add Beaufighter and Wellington to that. I think you will get enough love next patch so leave us some...

Also if we assume the next theater is indeed Malta, I don' t see what they could add to the red side. But some more Italian aircrafts would be mandatory.

[Meaks]

WOW!!...............now that is a fantastic update,the Wellington cockpit is truly superb,really excellent work there Team Fusion,I'm currently floating somewhere around the ceiling :).........thank you guys,with that sort of update,we'll be keeping the faith for sure :thumbsup:

[Meaks]

Nah, the Axis already has the Ju-88, Ju-87, He-111, Br.20, G-50, Bf.109, Bf.110... while the Allies have the Hurricane, Spitfire, Tiger Moth and the Blenheim. It's about bloody time the RAF gets some love.

Chuck's right,the RAF is very poorly supported,.....and with all respect,the 'Tiger Moth' it is very nice,but about as about as much use as a chocolate tea pot,you can't class it as a fighter,or any asset to the red side of things at all.

I was always surprised that the original developers spent so much time on an Italian bomber ie,the Br.20 which only had a couple of outings during the BoB,when they themselves,had a truly iconic RAF bomber in the Wellington,left out in the cold!.......pure madness :doh:

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

There will be lots of German love...

We have already announced the 109E-7 and 109F.

Who knows... might be others too. :salute:

[keeno]

Thanks for another great update,


More mystery and questions generated each time a snippet is released. This next patch is looking bigger than I think anyone could have imagined. Amazing work and good luck with TF's progress.

MP, all the best with your project, we look forward to your return.

you guys really are "the business!"


Cheers

[Roblex]

If it is not the Gladiator that was mentioned in an earlier update then my money is on a P40 or Macchi 200/202

[71st_AH_Eagle]

If it is not the Gladiator that was mentioned in an earlier update then my money is on a P40 or Macchi 200/202

It isn't the Gladiator. It's a brand new model and an aircraft that hasn't previously been in the game before according to Mysticpuma a few posts up. So I think it would probably be one of those two as well after I did some digging yesterday. I'd personally love the Macchi 202 but I'm willing to bet that it is more likely the P40 with the clues that have been dropped and makes sense to give another the British another fighter.

So list of possibilities for TF 5.0 thus far: Gladiator, Cr 42, Beaufighter, Wellington, new variants of BF-109, hurricane and spitfire, plus this mysterious aircraft. Looking like a great lineup. :thumbsup:

Cheers,
Eagle

[richardhilton590]

It's been a while since I played this game. I'm back to playing it again this weekend and the next. Kudos to you guys for making an update. Thanks a lot!

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Thanks for the update/updates MP and good luck with your project.
The twin gun Blenny turret looks really fantastic as does the Wellington.
Great work TF Many thanks, v5.0 will be worth the wait.

S! Hub.

[vranac]

An excellent update ! Thanks !

Cockpit is looking very nice.

Teasing us like always ;-)

[major_setback]

Thx for the news and good luck w your project Neil!

PS why be so shy about the new theatre? Everyone knows it is NEW GUINEA...

H

WHO told you????:grrr:

:D

[ATAG_Jerry]

Excellent work, thanks guys.

Jerry.

[BKellem]

The Wellington looks great! I can't wait to make Wellingtons burn and fall from the sky! I don't really care for the new turret for the Blenheim, unless it's pointed in a safe direction.

Keep up the GREAT WORK TF!

Do you guys intend on updating the TF TS overlay for newer versions of TS in the new TF 5.0 patch? I really like it better than TS Notifier.

:thumbsup: :salute:

[IIJG27Rich]

Thx for the news and good luck w your project Neil!

PS why be so shy about the new theatre? Everyone knows it is NEW GUINEA...

H


WHAT!! :doh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La9lfSR6vRc

[heinkill]

WHO told you????:grrr:

:D

You guys leak like a sieve...a mole sent me this screenie of the new flyable Beaufighter over Wewak, PNG north coast. That is definitely 'Mt Nipple' there in the background, don't deny it.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WOaPcCe5R-E/VN_ZIRNvZCI/AAAAAAAAAA8/-f7CwzVOvhQ/w1580-h889-no/Flyablebeaunewguinea.jpg

[TheDoc]

Total noon here but already I can see the hardwork , dedication and passion that goes into this project. Still trying to get off the ground with my spit, fly on the wall would have been having a jolly time.

Anyway I also play fps, downloaded the cryzenx mod (YouTube him) he has done some amazing work working on lighting and visual effects, shaders, textures, god rays, depth of field.

Is this an area that you guys are looking at tweaking further?, hell get cryzenx on board (I know not that easy).

Thanks for listening.

[LARRY69]

New Guinea? I know that!:recon:
http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r739/larry691/130_zps7782de94.jpg~original

http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r739/larry691/129_zpseb65305e.jpg~original

http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r739/larry691/132_zpsc55b8b89.jpg~original

http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r739/larry691/131_zps94433282.jpg~original

http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r739/larry691/133_zpsa45b1510.jpg~original

[keeno]

Holy Sh*t Larry,

Those pics look amazing, I've come over a bit giddy.

Fingers crossed for the Beu, (but the P40 wouln't go a miss, I think that may be asking a little too much!)


Cheers

[Roblex]

Holy Sh*t Larry,

Those pics look amazing, I've come over a bit giddy.

Fingers crossed for the Beu, (but the P40 wouln't go a miss, I think that may be asking a little too much!)


Cheers

The beau has already been announced, we are now being told there is something brand new from scratch ie not a new version of something we already have and not a flyable version of an existing AI plane. The P40 would fit that bill and if I am correct in my guess for the new theatre then it would be pretty much essential.

[Stigler]

34: #602: "Defensive AI Gunner Skill Levels Set Too High" (New)


I have not played in a while, but I played mostly Bombers and BF110, the old AI never hit anything. I know they buffed the AI level, but are the complaints from Fighter pilots who all want the easy kill? Like it used to be? They need to work for a bomber kill. It should not go back to a fighter with NO energy advantage creeping up slowly on a bomber and able to pick it apart without at least having his engine plinked.

Fighters coming in from above or below at an angle with a large energy advantage (the correct way to attack a bomber) should be hard to hit. But the ones creeping up from the rear should be hit by AI.

Please review this and make an educated decision on whether or not the AI gunners are actually set to to high a skill, or if its just Fighters complaining about not getting the easy kills they once had.

Otherwise it all sounds awesome, thanks for all the hard work and updates.

[Stigler]

34: #602: "Defensive AI Gunner Skill Levels Set Too High" (New)


I have not played in a while, but I played mostly Bombers and BF110, the old AI never hit anything. I know they buffed the AI level, but are the complaints from Fighter pilots who all want the easy kill? Like it used to be? They need to work for a bomber kill. It should not go back to a fighter with NO energy advantage creeping up slowly on a bomber and able to pick it apart without at least having his engine plinked.

Fighters coming in from above or below at an angle with a large energy advantage (the correct way to attack a bomber) should be hard to hit. But the ones creeping up from the rear should be hit by AI.

Please review this and make an educated decision on whether or not the AI gunners are actually set to too high a skill, or if it is just Fighters complaining about not getting the easy kills they once had.

Otherwise it all sounds awesome, thanks for all the hard work and updates.

[DUI]

This is quite a complex topic: There are AI gunners of AI-flown planes that shoot like snipers, whereas some AI gunner positions hit nothing at all. Osprey once recorded a nice video showing the different performance of the AI gunners.

Then there is the situation of AI gunners in human-flown planes. On the blue side if you fly in a 2+ seater your AI gunner won't hit a thing. You can fly in 6+ formations and enemy fighters still can approach slowly on the 6 without having to be afraid of getting hit by AI gun fire. I am no expert on red bombers but the occasions that I get hit by Blenheim gunners I always expect that they were controlled by the human pilot or another human gunner.

[major_setback]

Can't you set the AI skill in Full Mission Builder? I think it's possible isn't it? Maybe even for gunners? I'm not at home at the moment so I can't check it, but I think it's possible to set it in the plane properties (the window where you change skin and markings of each aircraft in FMB).
The default single and quick missions probably haven't had these properties set, and you might be able to edit them.

I might be wrong. (It wouldn't be the first time:D).

Cheers, Setback

[heinkill]

[QUOTE=LARRY69;171635]New Guinea? I know that!:recon:


Hey Larry where'd you get them skins? Been looking for JP skins everywhere! Though I might actually have to finally learn skinning myself...last resort!

I want to make a Pacific mission pack using one of the online maps...

G50 for Ki-27
BR20 for the Betty
Stuka for the Judy
Sunderland for a Mavis

H

[LARRY69]

[QUOTE=LARRY69;171635]New Guinea? I know that!:recon:


Hey Larry where'd you get them skins? Been looking for JP skins everywhere! Though I might actually have to finally learn skinning myself...last resort!

H

..Self made,self made.:wave::)

[major_setback]

[QUOTE=heinkill;171728]

..Self made,self made.:wave::)

Excellent skins Larry. You are a self made man. :-)

[LARRY69]

We Skinner are all "Self-made-Men":hbd:

P.S. the Beaufighter Skin is actually a "Acred99-Skin"!
Thanks Mate

[9./JG52 Mindle]

I am no expert on red bombers but the occasions that I get hit by Blenheim gunners I always expect that they were controlled by the human pilot or another human gunner.

The Red bombers AI is just as terrible as the Blue side. To hit anything you need a human gunner in the turret.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SlowerBanterSir]

This stuff looks awesome. I had no idea work was being done on the Blenny as well! The Red bomber force will be quite formidable soon. :thumbsup:

And whatever the new theater is, it will undoubtedly draw more people into the game by doubling the variety and reducing Battle of Britain burnout. To use a cliche, it should be a game-changer.


we are also not ruling out the Wildcat/Martlet as a future type. (not TF 5.0)

Now that is awesome to hear, even if it would come far in the future. On behalf of my late grandfather, a Grumman aeronautical engineer who (I'm told) worked on the F4F, I lodge my full support. :hpyflying:

[DUI]

Can't you set the AI skill in Full Mission Builder?

If I remember it correctly Osprey also demonstrated the effect of different skill levels. But bottom line there was not much of a difference.

Ah, finally found it (linked in the TF bug tracker - I should have thought about it earlier):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fn4LJtLdJk

[Roblex]

Can't you set the AI skill in Full Mission Builder? I think it's possible isn't it? Maybe even for gunners? I'm not at home at the moment so I can't check it, but I think it's possible to set it in the plane properties (the window where you change skin and markings of each aircraft in FMB).
The default single and quick missions probably haven't had these properties set, and you might be able to edit them.

I might be wrong. (It wouldn't be the first time:D).

Cheers, Setback


Yes it is all set by the mission builder, at least for the AI. The very highest level is stupidly high and is not really useable. Recently in Storm Of War some bombers were accidently set to the highest level and three of us attacking were all PK'd before getting in gun range but otherwise I believe they should be set quite high. It also seems to depend on the actual bomber type. In SoW, all the AI formations are set with the same mixture of high to medium gunners (usually the leaders being high) but Do17s cant seem to defemd themselves at all, JU88s can be attacked from the six if you pick on the outer bombers but a formation of He111s is deadly and must be attacked in fast swooping attacks from the high flanks, preferably with others to split the defensive fire, and try to get one damaged enough to drop out of formation. Personally with Ju88s I find the conventional wisdom of 'don't attack from dead six' to be flawed. If you are exactly dead six you seem to be a lot safer than slightly low. I don't know if the AI refuses to fire near its own tail but as soon as you drop below a formation of JU88s they all suddenly seem to home in on you and it sounds like a hailstorm on a tin roof :D

EDIT

Having looked at Ospreys video it looks like the reason a formation of He111s is so dangerous to attack from the rear is the concentrated fire from waist gunners, not the rear gunners. I am surprised at the ineffectiveness of the JU88s ventral gunners in his video because I frequently attack a formation of JU88s from the rear with little damage but then drop low and get riddled. Even a badly timed flank attack that leaves you flashing down past the rear of the formation at high speed can often result in a lot of hits (though rarely fatal)

[heinkill]

We Skinner are all "Self-made-Men":hbd:

P.S. the Beaufighter Skin is actually a "Acred99-Skin"!
Thanks Mate

Any chance you could self make a Sunderland into a Mavis, BR20 for Betty and a Stuka into a Judy?

Far east Spit, Blenny or Hurri squadron identifiers?

A nice Pacific mission set would keep a few people going until the New Guinea theatre is finally released...

A man can ask!

H

[Osprey]

There will be lots of German love...

We have already announced the 109E-7 and 109F.



Eh? I don't remember seeing this :stunned:

P40 + Afrika innit :devilish::recon:


Regarding the AI gunners, basically all of them are absolute rubbish at Ace or Rookie EXCEPT the Do17 front gunner and He111 waist gunners who are snipers. This bug is in hand, read the discussion thread from the bug report and MP gives a great explanation of the plans for it.

[VII.Racetrack]

I think You Should release something as fast as possible guys .. Maybe a TF v4.4 or something like that with just a few improvments ...
Maybe just a few of the new units or just new textures ...
Just something to keep the interest of the palyers .. People are sadly starting migrating to the new Il2 That I do not like for nothing ..
If this migration will become numerically large all of your works will be sadly un-usefull ..

Clod I love and I love all of your updates .. But I See That many players are losing hope of seeing new patchs here on Clod ... ( i'm not talking of me obviously)

Please release just a little patch , just something...

I don't wanna find my-self, in the next months/year, flying on other simulators..

[LARRY69]

Eh? I don't remember seeing this :stunned:

+1 ...but we take the "Friederich" of course!:thumbsup:

[ATAG_Lolsav]

People are sadly starting migrating to the new Il2 That I do not like for nothing

Hmm dont feel that way. In fact we never had so many. Team Fusion brought this game back to life, thats no news. But i do remember the days where a crowded night was 10v10 :)

Whoever bought the other game will fly it, will try to get the most of it and i dont see nothing wrong with that. Those who dont like the Eastern scenario or the game itself will come back or stick around. We just have to be here and keep the place cousy and warm :)

When TF 5.0 comes around we gonna experience a new influx as usual.

[III./ZG76_Saipan]

racetrack:

http://steamcharts.com/app/307960

BOS....20% down in the last month...

CLOD holding steady

http://steamcharts.com/app/63950

[VII.Racetrack]

Hmm dont feel that way. In fact we never had so many. Team Fusion brought this game back to life, thats no news. But i do remember the days where a crowded night was 10v10 :)

Whoever bought the other game will fly it, will try to get the most of it and i dont see nothing wrong with that. Those who dont like the Eastern scenario or the game itself will come back or stick around. We just have to be here and keep the place cousy and warm :)

When TF 5.0 comes around we gonna experience a new influx as usual.

My fear is that others Sims will presents new features soon...


racetrack:

http://steamcharts.com/app/307960

BOS....20% down in the last month...

CLOD holding steady

http://steamcharts.com/app/63950

This data are very conforting... I'll immediately show to my friends!! Thank you!!
I love Clod too much to see it fall in the dark hole of the "passed sims"

[Stigler]

racetrack:

http://steamcharts.com/app/307960

BOS....20% down in the last month...

CLOD holding steady

http://steamcharts.com/app/63950

Wow, that is amazing and a testament to Team Fusion. I keep going off track trying to decide which DCS skills to hone or go back to Clod, and I have not touched FSX in a long time. I have been a little addicted to War Thunder Ground Forces since its Beta. (never touched the planes)

Definitely excited about the 5.0 patch, I just wish the player AI gunners could be tweaked (guess they still have not found it in the code) as flying bombers in Clod alone just makes you a juicy target. My only fighter skills were BnZ need a 190.

[IIJG27Rich]

If I remember it correctly Osprey also demonstrated the effect of different skill levels. But bottom line there was not much of a difference.

Ah, finally found it (linked in the TF bug tracker - I should have thought about it earlier):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fn4LJtLdJk

Marleo seems to get clobbered also.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8UiPNo93KQ

[Osprey]

Yes that's the waist gunners from the He111. Noticed he is ok until he gets alongside a few of them, then is pulverised.

War Thunder, 23,000 players versus 250 in COD
http://steamcharts.com/app/236390#All

COD
http://steamcharts.com/app/63950#All

It must be tapped better than we have right now, even 1% of that base would nearly double the attendance in COD. Despite all of the good work players don't seem to stay when you look at the long game.

Does TF have any plans to use other types of skill beyond software? People skilled in marketing and advertising.

[5./JG11_Rain]

Really impressive, great work!

[VII.Racetrack]

Marleo seems to get clobbered also.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8UiPNo93KQ

Is that a Bug the fact you died in this video?

[Osprey]

A flippant remark like that leads to a game not a simulator.

The waist gunners are too powerful. Have you not watched the demonstration video?

[Stigler]

Yeah that is some strange behavior for the AI/AI Gunners. DO217 with ventral that does nothing and nose that is to good, and same with the HE-111 side gunners being superhuman. Strange how the AI/AI Gunners are completely random in skill in regards to the gunner location in the aircraft.

And that is the Steam user Warthunder numbers, at peak times on weekends there are close to 90,000 players not sure on the plane to tank player ratio, even the SB flight mode is to arcade like, and the realistic mode allows mouse aim for flying. I only do the tanks, playing the (lol) underdog Germans mostly. (A lot of Soviet bias in game.)

[Ioshic]

Amazing, just amazing guys!

Thank you!

:-):thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[VII.Racetrack]

A flippant remark like that leads to a game not a simulator.

The waist gunners are too powerful. Have you not watched the demonstration video?

Dude, maybe you're right about the Gunners I don't know... But that video isn't the best demostration of the fact..
That pilot passed at least at 50 meters from the Bomber and even at very low speed.. What do you expected?
A salute with his tiny hand?

Like "Hallooooooo we are flying IIIAAAAA????"
LOL

That's absolutely the wrong way to attack any Bombers. And when I say ANY i say ANY Bombers

Imho Bomber's gunners have to be avoided by the pilots and not tweaked by developers.

Take this as an opinion and not as a Take this as an opinion and not as a criticism.

!!!Salute!!!

[Roblex]

Very useful video Osprey. Now I know to treat the Do17 like a Beaufighter. no real rear defence but devastating forward fire. I will also treat the He111 like HMS Victory, weak bow & stern chasers but a devastating broadside :D Let's hope TF can find the code to fix that. Unlike most fighter pilots, I am happy for bomber formations to only be attackable with fast slashing attacks but all the guns do need to be comparable within the limits of the individual calibres.

[Black034]

A flippant remark like that leads to a game not a simulator.

The waist gunners are too powerful. Have you not watched the demonstration video?

Sorry Osprey but that run was pure suicide.

I can agree they get too much hits from very strange and hard angles sometimes.. but that was just a silly move and bad demonstration.

[VII.Racetrack]

Sorry Osprey but that run was pure suicide.

I can agree they get too much hits from very strange and hard angles sometimes.. but that was just a silly move and bad demonstration.

Totally agree, and I add this..

Imho lots of " improvments/fixes requests" are carried out by pilots who do not know the right way to act in those particolar situations...

I also cried ... for the "too armored spitfire " then for the "too much powerfull guns of the 109 " then for infinite Reasons ... Only to find out , after learning a bit of HOW TO FLY those particular aircraft , that what was I complained about were only fed by my " inadequacy " in certain situations...

[hauggy]

Bravo ! Awesome job, thanks for sharing with us.

Can't wait for that update with all these fancy new planes omg...

I still have time to learn and master those that are already in the game until that day arrives.

You guys are simply the best, your dedication to the community made me feel confortable the first minute I joined.

Keep up the good work ! Thanks for your dedication and keep teasing us too!

I hope the misterious new plane that was added with the help of a fan is something we didn't heard about yet, how exiting !

P.S : Small question : I wonder why you are adding guns and bombs to the tiger moth, was it actually used in combat mission while war was raging ? Also was it a two seater aswell (the combat version ofc), would you have a picture to show?

[IIJG27Rich]

Yes that's the waist gunners from the He111. Noticed he is ok until he gets alongside a few of them, then is pulverised.

War Thunder, 23,000 players versus 250 in COD
http://steamcharts.com/app/236390#All

COD
http://steamcharts.com/app/63950#All

It must be tapped better than we have right now, even 1% of that base would nearly double the attendance in COD. Despite all of the good work players don't seem to stay when you look at the long game.

Does TF have any plans to use other types of skill beyond software? People skilled in marketing and advertising.

I think things will improve with the new theater also aren't we still way on top of BOS in the numbers?

[Osprey]

You guys seem confused so let me clear this up for you.

That is not my video, it's MarLeo's video and he is a 109 pilot from Stab/JG26 in ACG. And before you criticise MarLeo for his inexperienced approach please note that this gaggle was flying at the FMB default 300kmph which is about 50kmph too fast for the cruise speed of a fully laden He111. In a Hurricane it is not possible to whiz past a formation flying at this speed unless you have several thousand feet advantage, the Hurricane is too slow for that. So when you talk about his approach speed then add on 50kmph to that before you make judgement.

Now, my video below is the one made for the bug in the bugtracker to DEMONSTRATE the gunners by flying into different positions and showing everyone their gunnery power, and it demonstrates this quite clearly. How anybody would think that this is a demo of how to approach a single German bomber is beyond me, what would be the point in shooting the thing down? How is that going to demonstrate AI gunners if I kill the thing before I get near it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fn4LJtLdJk

If anybody is in any doubt then test it yourself before you do something stupid like downvote the bug without logic. If you get a different result I am sure Team Fusion will be keen to hear it.

~S~

[hnbdgr]

My fear is that others Sims will presents new features soon...

This data are very conforting... I'll immediately show to my friends!! Thank you!!
I love Clod too much to see it fall in the dark hole of the "passed sims"

Don't forget BoS sold first and foremost outside of steam, public have no access to those statistics. But If BoS multiplayer is anything to go by, people are certainly not migrating very much :D

[No601_Swallow]

You guys seem confused so let me clear this up for you.

That is not my video, it's MarLeo's video and he is a 109 pilot from Stab/JG26 in ACG. And before you criticise MarLeo for his inexperienced approach please note that this gaggle was flying at the FMB default 300kmph which is about 50kmph too fast for the cruise speed of a fully laden He111. In a Hurricane it is not possible to whiz past a formation flying at this speed unless you have several thousand feet advantage, the Hurricane is too slow for that. So when you talk about his approach speed then add on 50kmph to that before you make judgement.

Now, my video below is the one made for the bug in the bugtracker to DEMONSTRATE the gunners by flying into different positions and showing everyone their gunnery power, and it demonstrates this quite clearly. How anybody would think that this is a demo of how to approach a single German bomber is beyond me, what would be the point in shooting the thing down? How is that going to demonstrate AI gunners if I kill the thing before I get near it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fn4LJtLdJk

If anybody is in any doubt then test it yourself before you do something stupid like downvote the bug without logic. If you get a different result I am sure Team Fusion will be keen to hear it.

~S~

It's a great demonstration video, Osprey. Outstanding work. Suddenly all those strange insta-deaths I've had when trying to intercept bomber formations start to make sense. I've rarely been killed from the dead six of a bomber.

My own squadron, in its recreations of BoB events flew many bomber intercept missions, but we had to find our own workarounds, like having unhistorical amounts of Dorniers and Ju88s. We only used Heinkels in very small numbers. I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't see this a few months ago, since it did hobble our attempts to simulate the BoB. The belting with observer rounds is also something we never thought of. Grrrr-CloD!

And of course now we've switched to doing Rhubarb and Circus bomber escorts, so it feels too late for us.

(And with the trouble we're having trying to bring a bit of weather into what were January missions, some squadron members have been wondering aloud if we ought to switch back to IL2 '46. It's easy to feel a bit discouraged about CloD from time to time. I hope the auto-updater gets done, so TF can push some micro-fixes! I want my Kentish hedges! And I want them NOW!)

[KansasCS]

Yes that's the waist gunners from the He111. Noticed he is ok until he gets alongside a few of them, then is pulverised.

War Thunder, 23,000 players versus 250 in COD
http://steamcharts.com/app/236390#All

COD
http://steamcharts.com/app/63950#All

It must be tapped better than we have right now, even 1% of that base would nearly double the attendance in COD. Despite all of the good work players don't seem to stay when you look at the long game.

Does TF have any plans to use other types of skill beyond software? People skilled in marketing and advertising.

:ind:

The hard truth of the matter is, is that CloD does not appeal to a wide audience. It takes a lot of dedication and then some to get the hang of flying and spotting and not being owned all the time in this combat sim. To live and to prevail over the english channel is to be cautious and patient. Virtues few people have after a long days work. The few enthusiasts that do stay on board/get on board are the old school simmers and die hard fans of realism. The IL2 faction thats been around for almost 15 years now and of course the ones that joined later. I myself started with CFS3 and pacific fighters while friends were losing their minds over Halo. While everyone was checking their myspace, I was checking my 6.
And even among us the ranks start to dwindle as other stuff and duties take up more and more of our lives. The number of HOTAS and rudder pedals being sold on eBay because the Seller has not enough time is manifold.
Of course there are going to be 100 millenials playing War Thunder for every dad playing Cliffs of Dover.
There's a reason I am beyond excitement that my sister(yes, sister) has shown a keen interest in taking up CloD once she gets her new PC. If it pans out, there will be 212 instead of 211 in that statistic.

...We happy few.

[Mudcat]

:ind:

The hard truth of the matter is, is that CloD does not appeal to a wide audience. It takes a lot of dedication and then some to get the hang of flying and spotting and not being owned all the time in this combat sim. To live and to prevail over the english channel is to be cautious and patient. Virtues few people have after a long days work. The few enthusiasts that do stay on board/get on board are the old school simmers and die hard fans of realism. The IL2 faction thats been around for almost 15 years now and of course the ones that joined later. I myself started with CFS3 and pacific fighters while friends were losing their minds over Halo. While everyone was checking their myspace, I was checking my 6.
And even among us the ranks start to dwindle as other stuff and duties take up more and more of our lives. The number of HOTAS and rudder pedals being sold on eBay because the Seller has not enough time is manifold.
Of course there are going to be 100 millenials playing War Thunder for every dad playing Cliffs of Dover.
There's a reason I am beyond excitement that my sister(yes, sister) has shown a keen interest in taking up CloD once she gets her new PC. If it pans out, there will be 212 instead of 211 in that statistic.

...We happy few.

That's really only part of the hard truth about it not appealing to a wide audience. The game encompasses an extremely small scope, very few flyable aircraft, 1 map/battle. If you aren't into the specific settings or planes... the chances of it holding you long term in that scenario are slim.

Thanks to TF for working on getting more of these planes flyable and a new theater, more variety will in no doubt also increase appeal in general. :salute:

[Osprey]

Swallow, perhaps you could have yourself and your lads upvote the defect since it affects you guys a lot too??


Also please let Hatter know that at I'm really enjoying the Premier League as much as the calamity that is Brighton and Hove Albion's freefall into League One.......:devilish:

[No601_Swallow]

Swallow, perhaps you could have yourself and your lads upvote the defect since it affects you guys a lot too??


Also please let Hatter know that at I'm really enjoying the Premier League as much as the calamity that is Brighton and Hove Albion's freefall into League One.......:devilish:

You mean upvote it on the bug-tracker? Sure thing. For us, well game-breaker is too strong, but game-pain-in-the-arse wouldn't be.

And Hatter knows Don't worry, he knows. On the other hand, I don't want to intrude on the Seagulls' grief too much...! Now, if only we can catch Everton and Stoke...

[1lokos]

Dude, maybe you're right about the Gunners I don't know... But that video isn't the best demostration of the fact..
That pilot passed at least at 50 meters from the Bomber and even at very low speed.. What do you expected?
A salute with his tiny hand?

Like "Hallooooooo we are flying IIIAAAAA????"
LOL

That's absolutely the wrong way to attack any Bombers. And when I say ANY i say ANY Bombers

Imho Bomber's gunners have to be avoided by the pilots and not tweaked by developers.

Take this as an opinion and not as a Take this as an opinion and not as a criticism.

!!!Salute!!!

I agree with you, the attack in the video is all wrong, by dead six, slow closure, too close to bombers.

EDIT - This dont mean that are something wrong with CLoD gunners. I prefer that my gunners are more effective. :)


but Do17s cant seem to defend themselves at all

This plane is curious, rear gunners is low effective, but the nose gunner is deadly. :devilish:

In IL-2 BoS due players complain in EA they tweaked the gunners to be less effective, now they have a very low ratio of fire, shoot a 1/2 second burst and wait 4/5 seconds to fire again.
But a attack fighter approaching by the six will be hit in 90% of attacks in the gunner first burst.
A curious bug there is that bombers gunners don't shoot at enemy attack (IL-2, Stuka) or bombers planes.

[Black034]

Totally agree, and I add this..

Imho lots of " improvments/fixes requests" are carried out by pilots who do not know the right way to act in those particolar situations...

I also cried ... for the "too armored spitfire " then for the "too much powerfull guns of the 109 " then for infinite Reasons ... Only to find out , after learning a bit of HOW TO FLY those particular aircraft , that what was I complained about were only fed by my " inadequacy " in certain situations...

No no no,

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say (maybe my fault because language barrier), the demonstration was a bit iffy.. but the point and purpose of the video remains true.

I've bounced AI bombers from 70 degree deflection going +500kph and you get pilot killed or other ridiculous stuff happens.

[Roblex]

I think people have totally missed the point of that video. It is not really about the 111 waist gunners being too powerful, it is that the gunners in the other positions are so different. I am sure that if a Hurricane flew alongside a real 111 in close formation he would get very badly hurt but equally if he hovered above the dorsal gunner or sat in front of the front gunner he should also get very badly hurt. ACE should mean all the gunners are very experienced at leading fast moving targets (though not laser guided) and ROOKIE should mean all gunners are sloppy and prone to missing fast moving targets but should at least open fire and should be able to messily hose targets that are slow moving or sitting on their six.

Having said that, I suspect that if that hurricane had passed the 111 going a lot faster he still would have taken more damage than would happen in real life when a waist gunner would not have a lot of time to see, aquire and open fire on a fighter flashing past. Setting all the gunners to be the same as an ACE 111 waist gunner *might* end up being just too much. As it stands, a formation of 111s is in my opinion about the right level of risk because the crossfire from the extra skill of the waist gunners makes up for the deficiencies of the rear facing gunners when attacked from the rear. Even slashing attacks from the high flanks are risky and I like that. For individual 111s that is not the case and they are too easy to shoot down without being shot yourself. Equally, a formation of Do17s will kill you every time in a hed-on pass which does not seem to agree with contemporary reports that say it was the most effective way to attack. The downside of that method was the greater chance of misisng at those closing speeds, not the risk of a gunner blowing your head off in the .25 second window he has.

[spartan18a]

Is it a Fw190????? :-)

[KansasCS]

That's really only part of the hard truth about it not appealing to a wide audience. The game encompasses an extremely small scope, very few flyable aircraft, 1 map/battle. If you aren't into the specific settings or planes... the chances of it holding you long term in that scenario are slim.

Thanks to TF for working on getting more of these planes flyable and a new theater, more variety will in no doubt also increase appeal in general. :salute:

Noted, aircraft and settings stretching to 1945 would be a wonderful addition. Then again, it takes a very long time to master even ONE plane. IF the term mastery can even be used. Not to mention the familiarity of the map. I'll admit that the prospect of flying a FW190 or a P51 or any other aircraft of that era would be very nice, but the setting as it is offers countless hours of gameplay already. The scope, in my humble opinion, is really not that big of a turnoff compared to the difficulty and realism.

[Black034]

Noted, aircraft and settings stretching to 1945 would be a wonderful addition. Then again, it takes a very long time to model/animate/texture/code even ONE plane.

Fixed that for ya.. :thumbsup:

[No601_Swallow]

I think people have totally missed the point of that video. It is not really about the 111 waist gunners being too powerful, it is that the gunners in the other positions are so different. I am sure that if a Hurricane flew alongside a real 111 in close formation he would get very badly hurt but equally if he hovered above the dorsal gunner or sat in front of the front gunner he should also get very badly hurt. ACE should mean all the gunners are very experienced at leading fast moving targets (though not laser guided) and ROOKIE should mean all gunners are sloppy and prone to missing fast moving targets but should at least open fire and should be able to messily hose targets that are slow moving or sitting on their six.

Having said that, I suspect that if that hurricane had passed the 111 going a lot faster he still would have taken more damage than would happen in real life when a waist gunner would not have a lot of time to see, aquire and open fire on a fighter flashing past. Setting all the gunners to be the same as an ACE 111 waist gunner *might* end up being just too much. As it stands, a formation of 111s is in my opinion about the right level of risk because the crossfire from the extra skill of the waist gunners makes up for the deficiencies of the rear facing gunners when attacked from the rear. Even slashing attacks from the high flanks are risky and I like that. For individual 111s that is not the case and they are too easy to shoot down without being shot yourself. Equally, a formation of Do17s will kill you every time in a hed-on pass which does not seem to agree with contemporary reports that say it was the most effective way to attack. The downside of that method was the greater chance of misisng at those closing speeds, not the risk of a gunner blowing your head off in the .25 second window he has.

The inconsistency between gunner positions and indeed between gunners in different planes means it's very hard to attack formations in historically realistic ways. Head-on attacks were usually the preferred method if possible, and impossible to do with dorniers. And if you've got sniper waste gunners in every Heinkel in a formation, then the waist gunners alone will cover most attacks. But now the most important objective becomes trying to avoid overshooting the formation. Hence the weird mix between too easy and suicidal, I suppose.

It's annoying too that skill level turns out to make little to no difference.

I wonder what the situation is with the other bombers - Br20, Blenheim, Wellie? Let's volunteer someone to test them too!

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Regarding the AI gunners comments... probably should not be in this thread.

But some notes... we will be adjusting the player flown aircraft AI gunner values... right now they are 'average', we will be upping them to 'veteran', unless there is a way for the code to be adjusted to allow the mission builders to set the value... in which case we will do that.

Obviously the AI piloted aircraft gunner values are set by the mission builder with the overall AI value for the particular aircraft.

[Mudcat]

Noted, aircraft and settings stretching to 1945 would be a wonderful addition. Then again, it takes a very long time to master even ONE plane. IF the term mastery can even be used. Not to mention the familiarity of the map. I'll admit that the prospect of flying a FW190 or a P51 or any other aircraft of that era would be very nice, but the setting as it is offers countless hours of gameplay already. The scope, in my humble opinion, is really not that big of a turnoff compared to the difficulty and realism.

Don't know how you took that to mean 190's and p-51's... but of course the scope doesn't bother you, you're playing the game now :D (it's not like we exactly hear from the folks who never pick it up due to lack of interest in BoB) Being a sim fan in general only takes you so far, removed from subject matter you may be interested in.

Trying to still stay on topic, thanks to TF guys for all the hard work you put in. You are the reason any of this can really enjoy this game to begin with. Look forward to whatever it is you have in store. Don't keep us in the dark for too long :)

[ATAG_Ezzie]

I wonder what the situation is with the other bombers - Br20, Blenheim, Wellie? Let's volunteer someone to test them too!

Hi Swallow,

I made this video attacking Wellies back in Sep. I used one of the pre made missions and didn't touch the gunner skill level fro memory. If I attacked them from dead 6 I died pretty quickly and even doing this type of attack the gunner still wounded my pilot.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12783

Ezzie

[ATAG_TCP]

Great update ;) ! Good luck with the doco, sounds interesting.
I am sooooo hoping for a Farey Swordfish of any varient, it is possible but might not be. However, I think it would be impossible not to add a Farey Swordfish to Cliffs Of Dover, that would be slander 0.0 JK, but I seriously think that they should or will put one in at one stage. The Farey Swordfish would be great as my grandad was a Telegraphic Air Gunner in the rear of one during WWII and the Swordfish was a vital part of the war, keeping the convoys of food etc comming into Britan.
However, whatever it is it will be great I am sure. ;)

[heinkill]

Great update ;) ! Good luck with the doco, sounds interesting.
I am sooooo hoping for a Farey Swordfish of any varient, it is possible but might not be. However, I think it would be impossible not to add a Farey Swordfish to Cliffs Of Dover, that would be slander 0.0 JK, but I seriously think that they should or will put one in at one stage. The Farey Swordfish would be great as my grandad was a Telegraphic Air Gunner in the rear of one during WWII and the Swordfish was a vital part of the war, keeping the convoys of food etc comming into Britan.
However, whatever it is it will be great I am sure. ;)

Gladiator + torpedo = Swordfish?

[ATAG_TCP]

That last comment was simply shoking 0.0. JK, but the Farey Swordfish is alot longer, has a tail gun, an open cockpit, the landing gear is different, and just looks way more glamourous than the Gladiator. Nice try though, I can see the resemblance between the two ;)

[SlowerBanterSir]

The Farey Swordfish would be great as my grandad was a Telegraphic Air Gunner in the rear of one during WWII and the Swordfish was a vital part of the war, keeping the convoys of food etc comming into Britan

I agree, the Swordfish would be awesome. A relative of mine flew in them, as well -- in the No. 2 (observer) seat over the Arctic convoys (this thread's reminding me just how many planes I have family connections to and want to see in-game!).

But as others have said in other threads, the Swordfish was painfully slow and poorly defended. In this game it would probably just serve as fodder for Jerry. :sad!: And TF probably prefers to spend time on planes that would attract a wider range of players.

[ATAG_TCP]

I get where you are comming from, but at the same time COD is about flying the important/great aircraft of WWII, not just the aircraft that appeal to players. Also the Swordfish would be cannon fodder? How about the Tiger Moth, he doesn't even have guns :).
Either way, I think that they should put it in eventually as without it the war would have been lost, so it is an important aircraft that needs to be in. Not to mention making COD unique as only one or two sims actually have the Swordfish. This would be a great opertunity for the Swordfish to get the recognition it deserves.
So please guys don't rule out the Swordfish from COD, those guys are counting on you.
;)

[♣_Spiritus_♣]

I don't think anything is ever ruled out so never lose hope.

With that said, everyone needs to understand the insane amount of effort required from multiple departments to get an AI aircraft flyable... let alone get an entirely new aircraft in game.

[ATAG_TCP]

I understand ;), however I also reckon that when the time comes, the Swordfish would be well worth it :)

[No601_Swallow]

Hi Swallow,

I made this video attacking Wellies back in Sep. I used one of the pre made missions and didn't touch the gunner skill level fro memory. If I attacked them from dead 6 I died pretty quickly and even doing this type of attack the gunner still wounded my pilot.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12783

Ezzie

Nice attacks!

For what it's worth, yesterday I did a couple of tests similar to Osprey's, with the Blenheim and the Wellington. These seemed more even and more realistic than the German bombers. The Blenheim top gunner was absolutely useless at Rookie. He didn't even fire at me sitting on his six until I fired at him. Even then he didn't hit me once. At ace, though he was pretty aggressive and - I think - very accurate. So that sort of made sense.

For the Wellington, the rear gunner fired at me and mostly missed at Rookie, but was an absolute sniper at Ace. Really hard to survive any sort of rear attack. The front turret also had a go at novice and ace, but didn't hit me at novice and only pinged me at ace.

[buster_dee]

My dreams are always for slow things. I have been playing with an escort carrier model for a couple of years. I had wanted to model the island spaces, the radar operator room(s), the HF DF room, the operations rooms, the ready room, and the hanger deck on some level. Needless to say, it is hopelessly mired in research. It is the HMS Attacker, with Type 271 Lantern surface search radar. That would place its operations around 1943. Thumbs down on a Stringbag would be a knife in the heart for me. ;)

Hunting Type VIIs, driving off Condors, keeping a convoy alive--heaven.

[ATAG_TCP]

Will be great if... when :) they put the String Bags in, nevertheless, COD is progressing beautifully in the hands of the ATAG group and will be... is better than IL-2 BOS. Also they are already inputting three new aircraft in there, excellent work guys. ;)

[buster_dee]

Will be great if... when :) they put the String Bags in, nevertheless, COD is progressing beautifully in the hands of the ATAG group and will be... is better than IL-2 BOS. Also they are already inputting three new aircraft in there, excellent work guys. ;)
ATAG is the hotel. Team Fusion are the guys in the basement wrenching the boiler.

[ATAG_TCP]

Oh, whoops! *face palm* Sorry, yes I ment Team Fusion. ;)

[Ekko]

Hello Gents.

Thank you TF

It look's like the Update/patch is safely getting there☺️

Thank you TF

[SorcererDave]

Should mention the Defiant also has a laser-accurate gunner as well. As some of our Luftwaffe friends in the ACG campaign found out a while ago when we put some AI Defiants in the mission.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

ATAG is the hotel. Team Fusion are the guys in the basement wrenching the boiler.

Actually we are the guys in the Intel group on the third floor, getting the bugs out of all the new ultra hitech 'intelligent management' computer systems. ;)

[buster_dee]

My correction stands corrected. :)

[Oersted]

A big salute to you, Mysticpuma, for your huge effort with the updates! - Immensely appreciated!

[IIJG27Rich]

Should mention the Defiant also has a laser-accurate gunner as well. As some of our Luftwaffe friends in the ACG campaign found out a while ago when we put some AI Defiants in the mission.


Just for kicks here is an ancient 2011 video of me sneaking up on two Defiants. Even back then Cliffs of Dover ran pretty well for me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaWIFVA3eGQ

[Tinkicker]

Absolutely stellar workmanship guys. TF you do us proud. Thanks so much for all your hard work.

[ATAG_Ribbs]

From No601_Swallow....Nice attacks!

For what it's worth, yesterday I did a couple of tests similar to Osprey's, with the Blenheim and the Wellington. These seemed more even and more realistic than the German bombers. The Blenheim top gunner was absolutely useless at Rookie. He didn't even fire at me sitting on his six until I fired at him. Even then he didn't hit me once. At ace, though he was pretty aggressive and - I think - very accurate. So that sort of made sense.....

Why couldn't the makers of the maps we have revise and add the Ai of the bombers to ace. Wouldn't this solve the problems all the bomber pilots have? We feel defenseless up there..That's why a lot don't fly them . Tired of getting slaughtered and never making it home. Give us a fighting chance.

[Roblex]

Why couldn't the makers of the maps we have revise and add the Ai of the bombers to ace. Wouldn't this solve the problems all the bomber pilots have? We feel defenseless up there..That's why a lot don't fly them . Tired of getting slaughtered and never making it home. Give us a fighting chance.

The sad fact is that many pilots already complain that AI gunners are too accurate. If you set them all to Ace then the boards would be full of people saying the bombers are manned by advanced killer robots with radar guided bullets and it is not fair. In their defence, there does seem to be a bug in the design of the bombers that means the quality of the gunners in defferent parts of the bomber vary wildly even when all are set to the same level. As one of the videos posted earlier in this thread shows, a Do17 with gunners set to Ace will hardly put up any fight when attacked from the rear but the front gunner, even on Rookie, *is* an advanced killer robot with radar guided bullets :D The He111 is useless front & back but the side gunners are devastating. Actually, the one bomber target that I find most realistic (ie meets what *I* think the proper historical danger should be even though I am totally unqualified :D) is a formation of 111s at Veteran level. The rear gunners are still useless so you wont have much trouble from the one you are targetting but the lethality of the side (waist) gunners of his buddies makes attacking a formation from the rear extremely dangerous. The only way you can attack a 111 formation at Veteran level is to pull alongside out of range and 3000ft higher then dive in in a curve and try to do enough damage as you flash past to make one drop out of formation so you can pick him off without his buddies turning you into Swiss cheese. It takes time and great risk to bring down these 111s even with squadmates dividing the defensive fire so it is much more satisfying.

Maybe one day TF will be able to look into why the gunners vary so much and we can get them all set to a good level that allows fighters to kill bombers only when they do it carefully.

[ATAG_Ribbs]

Roblex ... I do understand what you are saying...but the way the missions are designed now we don't have large formations of bombers unfortunately. What we have is mostly 1-2 bombers making runs on their own. I feel we need to adjust the missions accordingly. Make the fighters adjust THEIR attack to survive. Look at all the killer 109 cannon compilation kill videos. 90% of the kills are an enemy coming in from behind and letting loose on the poor Blenny. Not even a chance. Make the aggressor change his attack and get creative! We are tired of getting slaughtered every single time! The Blenny has 1 gunner and 85% of the time he doesn't even fire. I'm wondering if Lewis is on to something wih what he said above. The one thing I think we are doing wrong is we are trying to adapt the players to the game, instead of adapting the game to the players so to speak. You want people in bombers, you need to help the players / bombers out. Like Lewis said.. The reason we want to play is to have fun.. Getting slaughtered every sorts isn't fun. Give us some gunners that will protect us, and make the fighters figure out how to shoot us down!

Ribbs

[Kling]

Roblex ... I do understand what you are saying...but the way the missions are designed now we don't have large formations of bombers unfortunately. What we have is mostly 1-2 bombers making runs on their own. I feel we need to adjust the missions accordingly. Make the fighters adjust THEIR attack to survive. Look at all the killer 109 cannon compilation kill videos. 90% of the kills are an enemy coming in from behind and letting loose on the poor Blenny. Not even a chance. Make the aggressor change his attack and get creative! We are tired of getting slaughtered every single time! The Blenny has 1 gunner and 85% of the time he doesn't even fire. I'm wondering if Lewis is on to something wih what he said above. The one thing I think we are doing wrong is we are trying to adapt the players to the game, instead of adapting the game to the players so to speak. You want people in bombers, you need to help the players / bombers out. Like Lewis said.. The reason we want to play is to have fun.. Getting slaughtered every sorts isn't fun. Give us some gunners that will protect us, and make the fighters figure out how to shoot us down!

Ribbs

Sounds like you should give the Storm of war server a go Ribbs!
Many formations of bombers there! ;)

[Roblex]

Ribbs, I was saying the same as you. I said "Maybe one day TF will be able to look into why the gunners vary so much and we can get them all set to a good level that allows fighters to kill bombers only when they do it carefully." but inside that comment is the fact that the code would need to be rewritten and I am not sure TF knows what bit of code to change yet. As the game stands now, if the map makers set all Blenheims to have Ace gunners I still don't think you will find solo blenheims surviving an attack just by flying level and hoping the AI shoots down the fighter and I am not sure I would want to see that anyway. The blenheim was not capable of defending itself very well in real life, even when in close formation with others, and I don't think making it defend itself like a B17 for 'gameplay' reasons is the right thing to do. On that basis you may as well say the G50 should have cannons and the hurricane should be 50mph faster so those pilots don't get upset either. Let's go the whole hog and make all the fighters & bombers have the same guns and flight model so nobody feels disadvantaged :D

Yes, in an ideal world TF would be able to tweak the code to make the Blenny gunner try harder but it still has to be the same calibre gun operated in a manner consistent with a human gunner who does not have radar guidance and that means solo blenheims do not survive battles with 109s. In 1942 a flight of six Lancasters attacked Augsberg at low level in daylight and only 1 survived because the fighters had been about to land with low fuel when they saw the lancs. If six Lancasters cannot protect themselves then we cannot expect one, two or three blenheims to do better.

[eriku777]

Can TF crack the radar code to suppress messages for bombers wave skimming at super low altitude?

[ATAG_Ribbs]

I see what you are saying..and do agree to a certain extent.. But what I'm saying is set the Blenny's to ace.. They only have 1 rear facing gun to defend themselves with. Most of the time he never even fires at the enemy. We need something to help us out. Stop thinking about " historically accurate.. Back in the day there wasn't 1 guy in the bomber running around to all the stations doing all the positions. Like I said, I feel that we spend too much time trying to adapt the players to the game, when we could also be adapting the game to the players also. In the name of FUN . People want more people to fly bombers, then help them out with the means we have NOW ... By setting the AI to ace so we might have a fighting chance to make it there and back every once and a while. This game at some point has to remain fun for the players playing it. Do I still have fun?.. Of course I do.. Would I fly Bombers a lot more if my damn gunner would hit something now and then.. Absolutely! Bombing is a thankless job as it is..STATS wise.. So it is what it is. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Make the fighter at least work for the kill..lol Go look at any of the 109 bragging compilations.. And you will see almost everyone pulls up on their 6 without a shot being fired and blows it out of the sky.. Where's the fun in that for a Blenny pilot? Sometimes its not historically correct to make the RIGHT changes.. But it improves the fun game play experience.

@Kling...I will definitely check it out. :)

Ribbs

[ATAG_Ribbs]

Roblex..What I am implying is that the Blenny only has the one rear gunner. setting the aircraft AI to Ace wouldn't really cause a lot of problems other than the pesky 109s that just want to set behind us and don't have to worry about a thing. Its nothing we need to wait for TF to fix.. just put them to ACE and let the fighters get creative and use strategy to get us instead of camping on our 6. I do agree that the gunner AI does need looking into..but in this case I feel that a change is needed for the fun factor to stay in tact. Red bomber pilots who want to fire the aircraft up and try and make it to an objective.. and Hopefully back might be more motivated to do so.


Ribbs

[Roblex]

Roblex..What I am implying is that the Blenny only has the one rear gunner. setting the aircraft AI to Ace wouldn't really cause a lot of problems other than the pesky 109s that just want to set behind us and don't have to worry about a thing. Its nothing we need to wait for TF to fix.. just put them to ACE and let the fighters get creative and use strategy to get us instead of camping on our 6. I do agree that the gunner AI does need looking into..but in this case I feel that a change is needed for the fun factor to stay in tact. Red bomber pilots who want to fire the aircraft up and try and make it to an objective.. and Hopefully back might be more motivated to do so.


Ribbs

I think you missed what I was saying. I am more than happy for all blenheims to be set to Ace but it would probably make no difference; you would still be killed with barely any help from your gunner. Go look at that video of Ospreys that shows him attacking each of the Blue bombers at Rookie and at Ace. In most cases it seemed to make no real difference to the rear gunners which level they were set at. They were still nearly useless. Following on from that, if you set all Blenheims to Ace in the hope that the rear gunner might be 10% better then you would have to do the same for all the Blue bombers as they are also dead meat as soon a a Red fighter ambles up behind. We may not blow wings off them in a single pass but a competant pilot should set an engine on fire on the first pass which is just as dead. The problem is that setting the Blue bombers to Ace to make the rear gunner a tiny bit more effective (maybe) means the Do17s have two front gunners with semi-automatic sniper rifles and the 111 waist gunners produce the broadside of HMS Victory :D

This is the video. You really need to watch it to see why I say nothing will work until TF can fix the code.


http://youtu.be/1fn4LJtLdJk

[ATAG_Ribbs]

All good Points Roblex.. After looking I was reading the thread "We need more red bombers" thread. I responded as if I was still in that thread..after seeing Swallows comment. I wish they would set all the bombers to ace personally. The RAF adapted the tactic of using slashing attacks on the HE 111 and aiming for the cockpit because the gunns were so affective and to get around the armor plating that was behind the pilot... Once again adapt to the game.. Get creative.. And form a plan. I was answering more on what would get more Blenny's in the air..and having a gunner that would even react to enemy presence would be nice.

Ribbs

[Mrmaverick]

The main problem for the blemie is that it is very suseptable to the 20mm cannons on the 109. 1 shot pilot kills and catastrophic damage from those things is common on all of their prey, bombers and fighters. seems realistic, an exploding 20mm shell is bloody huge.( a bullet shaped grenade basically) . as for having fighter escorts, they are very handy to have but a boom an zooming 109 can easily bypass them to get a short burst of 20mm at a blemie. Better ai skill for the gunner may help a bit but not cause enough damage to stop an attack, the gunner having 20mm cannon replace their bb gun would be nice but that wont happen as it would be unrealistic. Basically the blemie is stuck in a rock an a hard place. It is fun to fly and blow stuff up with your 4 bombs, being consonantly blown out of the sky on a more often than not basis it gets old real quick an then its back to flying fighters(of witch the reds dont have bombs). The blemie is great but really its only target practice for the blues.

[ATAG_Snapper]

The blemie is great but really its only target practice for the blues.

I agree 99.9%. :thumbsup:


The other 0.1%? "Fear the Puss!" :recon:

:)

[ATAG_Lolsav]

The main problem for the blemie is that it is very suseptable to the 20mm cannons on the 109. 1 shot pilot kills and catastrophic damage from those things is common on all of their prey, bombers and fighters. seems realistic, an exploding 20mm shell is bloody huge.( a bullet shaped grenade basically) .

Hmm hmm... https://books.google.pt/books?id=Qd_q9xQBZ4QC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=blenheim+number+losses+1941&source=bl&ots=BpCROwhQED&sig=m2v0s9mRFw1dE29SLGIhK_Iqm9c&hl=pt-PT&sa=X&ei=wJP9VPaZGoLXU7LegfgF&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=blenheim%20number%20losses%201941&f=false

[Osprey]

All good Points Roblex.. After looking I was reading the thread "We need more red bombers" thread. I responded as if I was still in that thread..after seeing Swallows comment. I wish they would set all the bombers to ace personally. The RAF adapted the tactic of using slashing attacks on the HE 111 and aiming for the cockpit because the gunns were so affective and to get around the armor plating that was behind the pilot... Once again adapt to the game.. Get creative.. And form a plan. I was answering more on what would get more Blenny's in the air..and having a gunner that would even react to enemy presence would be nice.

Ribbs

Ribbs, with all due respect your recent posts are asking for the game to be adjusted to suit one type of player on one server, without regard for the other servers and other players in the sim. On Sunday, at about 2000GMT, I recommend you to hop out of ATAG for a second and take a look at the server list to see which ones are populated. At this time there are 2 other servers with similar and often more players than ATAG, plus other servers with people in them too. In ACG we can't all fly at once, there are too many of us for the netcode to handle, so it's not even a true reflection of numbers either.

Bigger picture mate JAT

[ATAG_Colander]

Just FYI, TF does not think on any server in particular when doing their work. All TF does is thinking about the game and community as a whole.

[ATAG_Ribbs]

Osprey... I don't mind checking out other servers..but I think you are missing my point. I am simply asking verbally for what every Bomber pilot is begging for silently or on TS. Being a bomber pilot in this game is a thankless job..especially on the stats page. When ever I see a bomber, and I'm in a fighter I think piece of cake. my ONLY worry is that I don't run out of ammo before i can bring him down. ( I fly almost exclusively red). Whats the fun in that? I feel the game should adapt to the players..(plural). Not just Blenny pilots..but to all Bombers. There was NEVER just 1-2 guys in a Bomber jumping around to all the stations. We need some type of help when were up there. Escorts are great when we get them.. but we don't ALWAYS have them. Like I said..make the fighters work for the kill! If the nose gunners are snipers, and the rest of the gunners are decent on ace, then make the fighters adjust..and don't fly anywhere near the nose. At least we would have a fighting chance. Shooting bombers is WAY to easy in this game. Camp on their 6..(if they don't have a human gunner that can hit something) and hope you don't run out of ammo before they make land. If your flying blue .. hit us with a few cannon rounds (from the 6 position and peel off) easy as that! Go watch any blue kill compilation video and tell me if I'm wrong? There has to be somethings that are done for historical accuracy, and then there are things that are done to keep the game fun and entertaining for the players to want to come back and play. I love to fly bombers...I have practiced enough that I can hit targets from 15K +, but its frustrating to climb that high only to be ambushed from behind and blasted out of the sky because my DAMN rear gunner was asleep or cant hit SH%#$T! Or worse yet , on the last mile of a bomb run..only to be cut to shreds from behind without a single shot fired from my gunner....lol All i am asking for is make the fighters do slashing attacks or something creative..instead of fly up behind put some cannon rounds in or MGs and rinse and repeat... too much to ask for? If I am the only one that feels this way, then I stand corrected...but if I'm not alone then speak up Bomber pilots..nothing will change unless we do so.


Ribbs

[Osprey]

Begging silently on TS does nothing to get changes made Ribbs. Making a video to demonstrate a problem does, so since I've done that perhaps you could add your vote to it, because I don't see you in the list ;)

http://tfbt.nuvturais.de/issues/602

Funny though, just checked that list, hilarious downvotes from the usual suspects, *names deleted by moderator* how embarrassing.... :D

* moderator's edit: direct attacks on fellow forum members are not allowed here

[ATAG_Snapper]

I believe we're arguing at cross purposes here. AI bomber gunners are a different breed of cat to the gunners found on human-flown bombers.

The AI bomber gunners are deadly, including the ones on the He115 floatplane found in ATAG's Kanalkampf mission. Despite warnings from PanTast, I found out for myself when I unheedingly dove down on one of these golden-bb'd suckers. My last words, were, "I'll make bunny stew out of him...just watch!"

The human-flown bombers, however, have AI gunners that, at best, put up only a token stream of tracers and frequently don't respond to attacking fighters at all.

I'm sure Team Fusion recognizes the difference between the two and *hopefully* addresses both. This would benefit ALL servers.

:salute:

[Osprey]

To be fair I didn't test all types, only Do17, He111 and Ju88. It really depends on which gunner it is in the type anyway. Would be interesting to see if the waist gunner of a human flown He111 is as effective as the AI one, I suspect it is, so I might arrange to try that out. The He115 isn't flyable, looks we can add the He115 gunner to the 'effective gunner' list rather than the 'defective gunner' one.

[IIJG27Rich]

Update this week? :recon:

[ATAG_Ribbs]

I do understand the frustrations associated with being PKed by enemy Gunner AI. I have watched your videos Osprey, and I appreciate you putting those together and the research you have done. What I took from the videos, is that the rear gunners were somewhat more effective on ace, and the side gunners on the 111's were deadly. Along with the Nose gunners on the DO17's were deadly also. The rear, top and ventral gunners looked like they did a decent job. That tells me don't attack them in a head on pass, or over shoot them. On the 111's it would be best to perform a high speed slashing attack..get in and get out. Not hard to figure out. If you don't think that would work Osprey then I respect your opinion.. but to me the Bombers aren't affective at all unless they are multi crewed. They are just too easy of targets..and by setting the AI gunners to ACE or Expert..is the only way I see of giving them a fighting chance. I like to fly them..but don't that much because its ALWAYS a one way trip. Im not going to beat a dead horse anymore....I know TF is looking into it..but until then it seems like a better option than what we have now...that's all I'm saying. S!


Ribbs

[Robusti]

Update this week? :recon:

Ya? Its been a month.

[ATAG_Snapper]

It's Friday the Thirteenth whaa, so maybe everyone is laying low today...... :recon:


:)

[vonAfton]

It's Friday the Thirteenth whaa, so maybe everyone is laying low today...... :recon:


:)

Yes please do that:) im gonna get high as F#"€%:lecture::lecture:

[ATAG_Colander]

Ya? Its been a month.

Time is relative.

[ATAG_Lolsav]

MysticPuma did told us he has been busy with a personnal life project and warn about a more spaced news content. So.. as much as i would like to have some news, we have to give him time.

[DUI]

Lolsav is right. Let's give MP some few extra hours...

:D

[Mysticpuma]

Lol :)

[JG4_sKylon]

Lol :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr_YVQctXVg

[Mysticpuma]

Bone thrown :)