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KansasCS
Feb-19-2015, 12:21
For the past two weeks I rekindled with cliffs of Dover after a long fall and winter hiatus. Getting up to speed again was easier than expected and my joining of teamspeak was invaluable. Here and there I have difficulties understanding strong british accents, but it's been really helpful so far. I take advice where i get it and don't go barging into every gaggle i see. I'm still far from being called an expert. I accept that it takes more than that to be a good pilot. So shot up wings is still common for me.
Nevertheless, after being downed so many times a pattern emerged. I'm always alone, facing One or more 109s. Same altitude or higher.
Countering "Booming and zooming" is very difficult, to say the least, Even if it's just one on one. It is said that i should follow them, always keeping them above my nose, trying to gain a little altitude. Yet they always manage to pull up even further, drop down on my high six and force me to break. I lose more and more energy and i can only hope to get lucky. A dogfight lasting more than 5min attracts more 109s and that's a death sentence. Is it just Part of the realism that i absolutely have to have the advantage or are there more effective ways to escape the BaZing and turn the tide?
Right now i believe the only viable countermeasure is having a wingman. If so, I'd be happy to apply for wingmanship on the atag Server.

III./ZG76_Saipan
Feb-19-2015, 12:32
getting on ts was the right move for sure....its only a matter of time before you meet someone you feel comfortable flying with and interacting with.

ATAG_Lolsav
Feb-19-2015, 12:34
Seems to me you just took the first step and you are starting to understand how to seek victory. I said "seek" not achieve. In time it will be come very clear to you. I wont take away the pleasure of self-discoverie there. Have fun! :thumbsup:

SorcererDave
Feb-19-2015, 13:24
I don't really understand why people say you should stay below and behind the 109 in that kind of scenario. I find the best thing to do is in fact head in the complete opposite direction, gaining as much speed as possible and then entering a shallow climb. The more horizontal distance you open up between yourself and the 109, the less his vertical advantage counts for.

The only way to win in that scenario is to drain the 109's energy as much as possible so you have a chance to get some shots of your own in, and you're not going to do that by sitting directly below him. Best case scenario, he'll lose sight of you, allowing you to disengage, climb and try to come back with the advantage. Worst case scenario, he'll have to waste a lot of E by chasing you in a very shallow dive.

macnihilist
Feb-19-2015, 14:04
I don't really understand why people say you should stay below and behind the 109 in that kind of scenario. I find the best thing to do is in fact head in the complete opposite direction, gaining as much speed as possible and then entering a shallow climb. The more horizontal distance you open up between yourself and the 109, the less his vertical advantage counts for.

The only way to win in that scenario is to drain the 109's energy as much as possible so you have a chance to get some shots of your own in, and you're not going to do that by sitting directly below him. Best case scenario, he'll lose sight of you, allowing you to disengage, climb and try to come back with the advantage. Worst case scenario, he'll have to waste a lot of E by chasing you in a very shallow dive.

Yes, if you keep your speed up and his energy advantage is not insanely large you can often drag him out into an energy trap. Here is an illustration of how that usually looks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI0i_tL-8aU#t=152
:)
If there's one thing 109 pilots despise, it is a fair fight. ;)

5./JG26_Peete
Feb-19-2015, 14:09
Alwais try to be higher ! You can dive to.. not as fast but you can.. and then when the 109 turns you got him !!! I never go in a fight were I am lower then the enemy.. or it has to be on the deck, then it is easyer in a hurri.

KansasCS
Feb-19-2015, 14:18
I don't really understand why people say you should stay below and behind the 109 in that kind of scenario. I find the best thing to do is in fact head in the complete opposite direction, gaining as much speed as possible and then entering a shallow climb. The more horizontal distance you open up between yourself and the 109, the less his vertical advantage counts for.

The only way to win in that scenario is to drain the 109's energy as much as possible so you have a chance to get some shots of your own in, and you're not going to do that by sitting directly below him. Best case scenario, he'll lose sight of you, allowing you to disengage, climb and try to come back with the advantage. Worst case scenario, he'll have to waste a lot of E by chasing you in a very shallow dive.

how is this wasting? he's got me directly in front of him. I'm exposed and need to break as soon as he catches up again. It's either that or I turn and try to face him with the advantage you claim I have now. Best case, it's a head on fight, but it's more likely that he'll lead into my turn and get some lovely deflectionshots into me, because the distance between me and him isn't that great after all.
In the end, I will have only gained time by disengaging and heading into the opposite direction.

Nevertheless, I'll try it the next time and see how it goes.

SorcererDave
Feb-19-2015, 15:02
I shall attempt to explain with the help of MSPaint:

http://i.imgur.com/JZ6SbjR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0AE64x3.jpg

Otyg
Feb-19-2015, 15:52
For the past two weeks I rekindled with cliffs of Dover after a long fall and winter hiatus. Getting up to speed again was easier than expected and my joining of teamspeak was invaluable. Here and there I have difficulties understanding strong british accents, but it's been really helpful so far. I take advice where i get it and don't go barging into every gaggle i see. I'm still far from being called an expert. I accept that it takes more than that to be a good pilot. So shot up wings is still common for me.
Nevertheless, after being downed so many times a pattern emerged. I'm always alone, facing One or more 109s. Same altitude or higher.
Countering "Booming and zooming" is very difficult, to say the least, Even if it's just one on one. It is said that i should follow them, always keeping them above my nose, trying to gain a little altitude. Yet they always manage to pull up even further, drop down on my high six and force me to break. I lose more and more energy and i can only hope to get lucky. A dogfight lasting more than 5min attracts more 109s and that's a death sentence. Is it just Part of the realism that i absolutely have to have the advantage or are there more effective ways to escape the BaZing and turn the tide?
Right now i believe the only viable countermeasure is having a wingman. If so, I'd be happy to apply for wingmanship on the atag Server.

hey dude. take a look at this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKvwSp3rn8Q
And if you see me on let me know if you need a hand. I dont have a strong british accent so thats all good... but i do have a swedish one :-P

ATAG_Endless
Feb-19-2015, 19:01
I shall attempt to explain with the help of MSPaint:

http://i.imgur.com/JZ6SbjR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0AE64x3.jpg

This is true in most cases but a good 109 driver will not allow for an extend and in some cases he will see that the target is trying to extend and climb resulting in a follow climb always maintaining a height advantage

ATAG_Dave
Feb-19-2015, 19:54
Nevertheless, after being downed so many times a pattern emerged. I'm always alone, facing One or more 109s. Same altitude or higher.
.

I know this is an obvious thing to say but Ill say it anyway - Climb more. ABC...Always Be Climbing.....109s dont get higher by magic they make the effort to climb. You can do this too :thumbsup: Take off from a rear base and create the time / space to get high (22k +) before you enter a zone where there are likely to be hostile AC. Life gets easier when you start to do this. Its more enjoyable to be the hunter than the hunted :)

Good luck and have fun. If you see Pantast and I on TS feel free to come and say hi we'll happily wing up with you.

:salute:

SorcererDave
Feb-19-2015, 20:03
@Endless - That's true, but obviously when this happens, the Spitfire can simply leave. At the end of the day the 109 has to either attack or let his prey go. He can follow him from above if he wants, always maintaining his altitude but were I the Spitfire in that position, I'd simply drag him to lower altitude and towards friendly fighters. But this rarely happens, I find. A good 109 pilot might exercise caution, but the majority don't. They just want a kill. When I extend from an attacker like that it's usually with the intention of disengaging entirely, just as if I were flying a 109 myself. Which then forces my opponent to either try an attack like I illustrated above, or leave me alone.

The end result is that one of three things happen - a) he continues to waste his E until he's shot down or has to run, b) he lets me go, or c) he continues to make sporadic, very conservative attacks, pausing between each to regain his speed and altitude. Then, after a while in my experience he eventually leaves because either he's bored, his ammo or fuel is low, or because friendly fighters have arrived with an altitude advantage over him.

I remember one fight against an E4/N in my Hurricane a few weeks ago on the ATAG server. Being in a Hurricane, there was simply no way (unless he made a massive mistake) I was going to be able to turn the tables on him, so I contented myself with just extending and evading his attacks for about 10 minutes before he simply left. He was smart - every time the margin between us began to close, he would climb up and wait while he regained his E, before coming back down to attack again. But in the end he simply couldn't kill me and gave up. To be honest I don't blame him. When I fly the 109 I do what most German pilots did in real life, and only attack a target that I'm confident hasn't seen me yet (going for the "cold meat" as RAF pilots referred to it). A 1vs1 duel against a skilled Spitfire or Hurricane pilot usually proves to be a waste of time (that's also why I try to bring a wingman as often as possible).

KansasCS
Feb-19-2015, 20:29
I know this is an obvious thing to say but Ill say it anyway - Climb more. ABC...Always Be Climbing.....109s dont get higher by magic they make the effort to climb. You can do this too :thumbsup: Take off from a rear base and create the time / space to get high (22k +) before you enter a zone where there are likely to be hostile AC. Life gets easier when you start to do this. Its more enjoyable to be the hunter than the hunted :)

Good luck and have fun. If you see Pantast and I on TS feel free to come and say hi we'll happily wing up with you.

:salute:

thank you! :)

5./JG26_Peete
Feb-21-2015, 00:43
Great tactics SorcererDave. You are completely right. Most pilots want a kill. So they push on. Happens me also in the 109 to mutch.. but i made a promise to myself... now the divercult plane!

Injerin
Feb-21-2015, 01:29
Visibility is the key, if you can keep an eye on or enemy, thats the key. I can play with a 109 all day with the hammer head boom and zoom. only if I can keep an eye on him.

ATAG_Paranoid_Glitch
Feb-21-2015, 02:38
Hi KansasCS

If you see me on, give me a shout and we will wing up. S!

If you are flying alone my advice to avoid the situation you describe is to take off from rear airfields, gain altitude to 20,000, and then pick off solo 109's you see flying below you by booming and zooming them to preserve your energy and altitude advantage.

That way you become the hunter rather than the hunted.

A lone wolf red pilot who flys low will rarely survive a flight.

Also, never follow fleeing 109's to France- its usually a bag and drag. Even if it isn't you will find yourself low and slow in their backyard.

Mudcat
Feb-21-2015, 02:42
I know this is an obvious thing to say but Ill say it anyway - Climb more. ABC...Always Be Climbing.....109s dont get higher by magic they make the effort to climb. You can do this too :thumbsup: Take off from a rear base and create the time / space to get high (22k +) before you enter a zone where there are likely to be hostile AC. Life gets easier when you start to do this. Its more enjoyable to be the hunter than the hunted :)

Good luck and have fun. If you see Pantast and I on TS feel free to come and say hi we'll happily wing up with you.

:salute:

By chance did you spend a lot of time playing HB/RB in WT :)

KansasCS
Feb-21-2015, 07:21
thank you all for your replies, it's been really helpful. :-)
especially avoiding the hammerhead BaZ by extending away.
It's a charm how the 100octane spits outperform the 109s beyond 20000 or so feet.

ATAG_Dave
Feb-21-2015, 07:54
By chance did you spend a lot of time playing HB/RB in WT :)

I played all the modes there. Having an altitude advantage over your opponent is desirable in the WT arcade all the way through to the rarefied atmosphere of DCS (and anything in between)......

Mudcat
Feb-21-2015, 10:15
I played all the modes there. Having an altitude advantage over your opponent is desirable in the WT arcade all the way through to the rarefied atmosphere of DCS (and anything in between)......

It wasn't what you said as how you said it :P Don't worry, I'm not knocking you for it, i've played it for well over 2 1/2 years now myself. Was just a question, no ill intentions meant.

SorcererDave
Feb-21-2015, 10:31
I'm guessing Dave was probably one of the ones climbing and facepalming while the rest of his team flew in at 500ft, lol. I must admit, one of the nice things about CloD is that you don't have to rely on your team being good pilots in order to not die.

ATAG_Dave
Feb-21-2015, 10:53
It wasn't what you said as how you said it :P Don't worry, I'm not knocking you for it, i've played it for well over 2 1/2 years now myself. Was just a question, no ill intentions meant.

None taken at all mate :thumbsup: Before I played WT I had never played any kind of air combat game at all. I played arcade (with a mouse on the wifes laptop!), then HB/RB then FRB/SB. Its a great place to get people interested in playing these kind of games and it can be a lot of fun too. I dont think I would have found my way here without WT.

Otyg
Feb-21-2015, 13:10
None taken at all mate :thumbsup: Before I played WT I had never played any kind of air combat game at all. I played arcade (with a mouse on the wifes laptop!), then HB/RB then FRB/SB. Its a great place to get people interested in playing these kind of games and it can be a lot of fun too. I dont think I would have found my way here without WT.

Arcade, Dave... You forgot that.... :P Haha

Xo

ATAG_Dave
Feb-21-2015, 13:43
Arcade, Dave... You forgot that.... :P Haha

Xo

Not at all - the Arcade mode is the only bit they got right IMO. As long as you approach it the same way you would space-invaders or any other arcade game its great.

GloriousRuse
Mar-02-2015, 21:45
Wingman Tips (not that godless imperialist tommies deserve them, but hey)

1. Fly side by side, not behind your leader. When one is behind the leader cannot see his wingman, and usually just bucks about doing ridicolousness. The man behind stays so focused on the leader to his front that he can't scan anywhere else. Sid eby side when you look at the lead and he looks at you, presto, most of the sky is being looked at, including the nasty blind spots behind and below you.

2. Cruise at less than 100%. Because at some point someone is going to have to catch up or adjust for a late turn.

3. Don't stop being wingmen when you start fighting. This is a big one. the reason most wing pairs end up not trusting their teamwork is because both sides immediately begin fighting it like a one on one dogfight and throw away most of the advantages, resulting in the 109 extending away or the spit turning for life - basically, nothing is done to negate the other side's advantage. The whole point is to make sure one of you is left with better E or better angles than the single opponent, which only happens by the law of large numbers when the pair is turning and burning.