How is the Bf 109 with the new 1.8 Patch?

[BKellem]

Hello,

I'm currently on a business trip to Las Vegas and could not bring my gaming rig this time. Excited to see a new patch was released, and Im curious to what they did to the Bf 109 flight model. Do the Spitfires have an advantage now? Can you still get out of a flat spin? Any increase to performance? Do Tell.

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Hi mate,

Rudder input is a bit more smooth and direct, easier to stall fight if thats your bag...Speed seems to be a bit off at sea level but handles a bit better up high..Im floating around 7k comfortably..

Do Spits have an advantage?...No

[ATAG_Snapper]

Performance-wise the Hurri and Spit 100-octane models can now be started on the ground, which is a major plus. Slight improvements to top speeds with both within a 2-minute envelope before the engine blows up at 12 lbs boost/2800 rpms. Mixture control orientation now fixed on Spits to match the Hurricanes' correct Rich - pull lever back/Lean - push lever forward. "See through" control lines in-cockpit repaired in 109's and Hurries.

No word yet on whether rudder trim preset has been changed back to 400 kmh (correct) from the previous patch's incorrect 300 kmh (as reported by Little_D).

No word if Spitfires can now achieve maximum rated 450 mph IAS dive without losing ailerons and other control surfaces at 420 mph IAS.

Other than some generalized notes from BlackSix re performance improvements and FM adjustments there has again been no specific readme notes issued with this patch.

[Catseye]

Performance-wise the Hurri and Spit 100-octane models can now be started on the ground, which is a major plus. Slight improvements to top speeds with both within a 2-minute envelope before the engine blows up at 12 lbs boost/2800 rpms. Mixture control orientation now fixed on Spits to match the Hurricanes' correct Rich - pull lever back/Lean - push lever forward. "See through" control lines in-cockpit repaired in 109's and Hurries.

No word yet on whether rudder trim preset has been changed back to 400 kmh (correct) from the previous patch's incorrect 300 kmh (as reported by Little_D).

No word if Spitfires can now achieve maximum rated 450 mph IAS dive without losing ailerons and other control surfaces at 420 mph IAS.

Other than some generalized notes from BlackSix re performance improvements and FM adjustments there has again been no specific readme notes issued with this patch.

S! Snapper,
One of my observations on the Hurri and Spit is that the sink rate is higher during final approach requiring some power be maintained now. In a dogfight, it is beginning to appear that good pilot tactics on either Allied or Axis aircraft will win the day. Rookie pilots are a dish to be served up cold. :)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hi Cats,

Hey, as long as we're going in the right direction, it's all good! :thumbsup:

The devs are really struggling with the FM's for both sides' aircraft, and I haven't had time for other than a cursory check of the Hurri and Spit 100 octane and Spit MK 2 models. (Hey, I was pleased that I could at least START the 100 octane models....this is the "right direction" IMHO LOL).

I'm sure it'll all get thrashed out over at 1C. But tactics are major, as you've pointed out. Just try taking out Keller in a Stuka or Lolsav in his G50. They just don't cooperate when I'm trying to line them up in my Spit IIa gunsight! :grrr:

[BKellem]

Thanks for all the information on the flight model changes. I can't wait to get home and try it out for myself next weekend. :salute:

[Dutch]

Hey, as long as we're going in the right direction, it's all good! :thumbsup:

Did a bit of testing on the server today, but only max speed at sea level, with 'tit pulled' and 3000rpm spits, 2800rpm Hurri.

Hurricane 100oct - 275mph

Spit Ia 100oct - 280mph

Spit IIa - 275mph

So we're still a few mph short ASL with the Spits. BUT!! In combat there is a significant improvement relative to the 109s which as we know aren't up to scratch either, so I'd hazard a guess that the current relative performance of Spits v 109s is reasonably ok (Don't quote me though, this is only 'gut feeling').

The Spit II only being as fast as the 100oct Hurri ASL is a bit erm, anomalous though. :D

They haven't touched the Blenny so it's still a pig on the ground.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Good info, Dutch. I was online just now briefly for one sortie in a Spit Ia 100 octane. Successfully engaged a co alt/co e 109 at approx 8,000 feet over Deal, holding my settings to a relatively conservative 2600 rpms/5 lbs boost. The 109 did not do the usual 5,000 foot rocket climb into the sun, and I was able to make a high deflection shot and down he went. Climbing to 12,000 feet, I saw another 109 at mid-Channel heading home at approx 9,000 feet. A shallow dive only kept me keeping pace with the 109 flying level. Increased to 6.5 lbs boost, holding 2600 rpms and increased my dive angle to get below him. When I was directly underneath (he was still flying level!) I went to 12.5 lbs boost and 2800 rpms to climb up behind him for a firing solution. After an estimated 30 seconds at full boost he was almost within my 180 yd convergence when.....my windscreen filled with oil and a damage message stating "oil gasket failure" came up. Temps remained normal. Aborted attack (the 109 flew on completely unaware) and made it back to Hawkinge for an emergency landing.

The good news: my Spitfire felt strangely stable and the wings didn't fall off. :thumbsup:

[Dutch]

Heh. Cool.

Yep, I've shot down a couple of 109s in consort with that bloke 'bofors' in the 100oct Spit, and things seem reasonable.

An interesting situation developed just before I posted, with two 109s in the sun about 2000ft above me in a 100oct and another chap in a IIa.

Usual bounce and zoom (or boom and zoom as it's known in the modern parlance) tactics from the 109s.

The other Spit was shot down, but the good part is that I steadily gained altitude on them with each pass they made, because the Spits now Climb. :D

I eventually lost them in the sun, and dived out of it as I was on me own. I dived like, well, a diving thing, and they lost sight of me, back to Manston I went.

The main difference is that where before this patch, it'd be 'goodnight vienna', with the new models it's possible to dodge their attacks whilst still maintaining a climb to get a fighting chance on their level.

Need a good ATAG turnout to thoroughly test this patch, but so far it's looking good (but I still want my high clouds back!).

[ATAG_Septic]

Heh. Cool.

Yep, I've shot down a couple of 109s in consort with that bloke 'bofors' in the 100oct Spit, and things seem reasonable.

An interesting situation developed just before I posted, with two 109s in the sun about 2000ft above me in a 100oct and another chap in a IIa.

Usual bounce and zoom (or boom and zoom as it's known in the modern parlance) tactics from the 109s.

The other Spit was shot down, but the good part is that I steadily gained altitude on them with each pass they made, because the Spits now Climb. :D

I eventually lost them in the sun, and dived out of it as I was on me own. I dived like, well, a diving thing, and they lost sight of me, back to Manston I went.

The main difference is that where before this patch, it'd be 'goodnight vienna', with the new models it's possible to dodge their attacks whilst still maintaining a climb to get a fighting chance on their level.

Need a good ATAG turnout to thoroughly test this patch, but so far it's looking good (but I still want my high clouds back!).

All very encouraging! Thanks for the info.

Septic.

[*Helo*]

Did a bit of testing on the server today, but only max speed at sea level, with 'tit pulled' and 3000rpm spits, 2800rpm Hurri.

Hurricane 100oct - 275mph

Spit Ia 100oct - 280mph

Spit IIa - 275mph

So we're still a few mph short ASL with the Spits. BUT!! In combat there is a significant improvement relative to the 109s which as we know aren't up to scratch either, so I'd hazard a guess that the current relative performance of Spits v 109s is reasonably ok (Don't quote me though, this is only 'gut feeling').

The Spit II only being as fast as the 100oct Hurri ASL is a bit erm, anomalous though. :D

They haven't touched the Blenny so it's still a pig on the ground.

I can confirm these values. The Spit Ia 100 Octane seems to have a nice top speed and also a quite formidable acceleration in comparison to the Spit IIa. I had really positive experiences with the octane Spit Ia in the Dogfights tonight.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Anyone know if the patch has fixed the following bugs and/or FM inaccuracies with the 109?

1) Speed. Still off? (Yeah, I know the same applies to Spits & Hurries).

2) Slats. Still opening too late (ie. too low speed)?

3) Rudder trim. Has it been reset back to 400 kmh vs 300 kmh?

4) Nasty/abrupt stall. By all accounts the 109 had a very benign stall characteristic in RL.

The repeatable WEP-without-overheating and not-so-stiff elevator response at high speed I don't know enough about or even whether these are valid 'bugs' in this game.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Did some quick speed tests with three of the most-used RAF fighters in this sim. Methodology was very simple: trimmed out for level flight at sea level at 2600 rpms and 6.5 lbs boost. Once everything was settled I pushed prop pitch fully forward for 3000 rpms and throttle through the gate/pulled the tit to yield full boost of 12 lbs (11 lbs indicated with mouse cursor placed over boost gauge). I also started a stopwatch to see how long this would last before my abused Merlin (uh, the engine, that is) blew up. I noted oil & coolant temps at the moment of self-destruction. All readings were taken using the mouse cursor.

Hurricane MK I 100-octane: 250 mph for 55 seconds -- "Exhaust Head Failure" Oil: 93 Coolant: 120

Spitfire MK Ia 100-octane: 270 mph for 1' 55" -- "Oil Gasket Failure" Oil: 89 Coolant: 111

Spitfire MK IIa: 260/270 (ie 265?) for 14'40" -- "Exhaust Head Failure" Oil: 97 Coolant: 112


All tests were done with 100% fuel. No idea what the barometric pressure was, nor if it were a Standard Day, Un-Standard Day, or where the Center of Gravity was. The weather was sunny, I noted.

[Dutch]

:)

When I did the Spit II speed test, I ended up way off the map, probably somewhere in Norfolk, but Snapper, 14 minutes??

Funnily enough, it was sunny when I did the run too. Unusually nice weather at the moment, what??

[ATAG_Snapper]

A boring 14 minutes and 40 seconds, as it were. Everyone else online was having fun but for me! :(

Sunny, yes, but definitely windy. At least, until I thought to close the canopy.....roflmao


(I just kill myself, I really do!)

[[FFCW]Urizen]

Snapper, never open your canopy! It shifts the CG and you risk loosing your wing! :PP

[ATAG_Snapper]

Good tip! (The things I learn on this forum amaze me!) :)

[[FFCW]Urizen]

Best thing to do actually, is to not take her into the air at all, just admire her beauty. Why take any risks? :)

[Catseye]

Hi Cats,

Hey, as long as we're going in the right direction, it's all good! :thumbsup:

The devs are really struggling with the FM's for both sides' aircraft, and I haven't had time for other than a cursory check of the Hurri and Spit 100 octane and Spit MK 2 models. (Hey, I was pleased that I could at least START the 100 octane models....this is the "right direction" IMHO LOL).

I'm sure it'll all get thrashed out over at 1C. But tactics are major, as you've pointed out. Just try taking out Keller in a Stuka or Lolsav in his G50. They just don't cooperate when I'm trying to line them up in my Spit IIa gunsight! :grrr:

Yeah,
Don't get into a turn fight with Keller in his Stuka. Surprising how it seems to out accelerate a Spit at low/slow alt. Only way I could get away was to climb and reverse and gain altitude before re-entering.

Hopefully, 1C will start to model drag and end the open cockpit issue except for takeoff and landings.

Cheers.

[Catseye]

Did some quick speed tests with three of the most-used RAF fighters in this sim. Methodology was very simple: trimmed out for level flight at sea level at 2600 rpms and 6.5 lbs boost. Once everything was settled I pushed prop pitch fully forward for 3000 rpms and throttle through the gate/pulled the tit to yield full boost of 12 lbs (11 lbs indicated with mouse cursor placed over boost gauge). I also started a stopwatch to see how long this would last before my abused Merlin (uh, the engine, that is) blew up. I noted oil & coolant temps at the moment of self-destruction. All readings were taken using the mouse cursor.

Hurricane MK I 100-octane: 250 mph for 55 seconds -- "Exhaust Head Failure" Oil: 93 Coolant: 120

Spitfire MK Ia 100-octane: 270 mph for 1' 55" -- "Oil Gasket Failure" Oil: 89 Coolant: 111

Spitfire MK IIa: 260/270 (ie 265?) for 14'40" -- "Exhaust Head Failure" Oil: 97 Coolant: 112


All tests were done with 100% fuel. No idea what the barometric pressure was, nor if it were a Standard Day, Un-Standard Day, or where the Center of Gravity was. The weather was sunny, I noted.

I've been flying both the 100 oct. Spit 1A and Hurri and find that you can go full boost - not through the gate - if you adjust pitch to hold 2500 rpm. But, it will go 2800 for combat situations as long as you keep it around boost 6 and only give it full boost kicks as needed. Of course, it's easy to forget old habits and put the throttle to the wall only expecting 6 lbs as in the 87 oct. and roasting your chicket. I've also found that you can get water temps up to 110 and even 115 but at the latter better get it down quickly. Another thing I noticed in SOW today was, flying at full boost with 2500 rpm, I leaned out the mixture and within 5 minutes I had engine problems. I don't utilize info screens but I noticed that on the right bank of cylinders they had blue flame and on the left bank the nearest 2 exhaust ports to the cockpit had blue flame but the furthest forward had yellow and blue flame. I think I cooked one of the cylinders - probably punched a hole through it. The aircraft did not overheat when I adjusted throttle and pitch down it just maintained altitude but lost speed and shook a lot. - interesting - I wonder if overlean is modelled?

Cheers

[ATAG_Septic]

I've been flying both the 100 oct. Spit 1A and Hurri and find that you can go full boost - not through the gate - if you adjust pitch to hold 2500 rpm. But, it will go 2800 for combat situations as long as you keep it around boost 6 and only give it full boost kicks as needed. Of course, it's easy to forget old habits and put the throttle to the wall only expecting 6 lbs as in the 87 oct. and roasting your chicket. I've also found that you can get water temps up to 110 and even 115 but at the latter better get it down quickly. Another thing I noticed in SOW today was, flying at full boost with 2500 rpm, I leaned out the mixture and within 5 minutes I had engine problems. I don't utilize info screens but I noticed that on the right bank of cylinders they had blue flame and on the left bank the nearest 2 exhaust ports to the cockpit had blue flame but the furthest forward had yellow and blue flame. I think I cooked one of the cylinders - probably punched a hole through it. The aircraft did not overheat when I adjusted throttle and pitch down it just maintained altitude but lost speed and shook a lot. - interesting - I wonder if overlean is modelled?

Cheers

I'm grappling with this very problem. I expect an engine to run hot when lean but have absolutely no education in such matters. I am finding that I need to lean a bit on boost but it's a fine balancing act and I can't even see the rope.

Septic.

[[FFCW]Urizen]

Actually the engine should be cooler when running on lean mixture, as less fuel is burned. But iґm far from being an expert on this either and whatґs got the number 23 to do with it :stunned:

[ATAG_Bliss]

Urizen;16495']Actually the engine should be cooler when running on lean mixture, as less fuel is burned. But iґm far from being an expert on this either and whatґs got the number 23 to do with it :stunned:

Well this boils down to the definition of lean and rich. Some say a rich mixture means too much fuel. While to others a rich mixture is too much oxygen. And the same goes in reverse. They say a lean mixture is the lack of oxygen (excessive fuel) while to others a lean mixture is excessive oxygen which is caused by lack of fuel.

As far as the cylinder temps, a lean mixture (fuel starved) will cause exessive cylinder heat. This heat can lead to detonation/pre ignition which only adds more heat to the cylinders. This is when you start burning pistons/valves (very bad!) Fuel in itself acts as a coolant in the cylinders. That's why it's always better to run a slightly richer (excessive fuel) mixture/ air fuel ratio. The excess fuel actually absorbs heat. This helps avoid the problems that could easily show up when lean. I guess short answer is, richer is better. But being lean is very hard on any engine and can cause serious problems.

Hope this explains some stuff :)

[[FFCW]Urizen]

thank you bliss :thumbsup: . you never stop learning new things.

[ATAG_Septic]

Well this boils down to the definition of lean and rich. Some say a rich mixture means too much fuel. While to others a rich mixture is too much oxygen. And the same goes in reverse. They say a lean mixture is the lack of oxygen (excessive fuel) while to others a lean mixture is excessive oxygen which is caused by lack of fuel.

As far as the cylinder temps, a lean mixture (fuel starved) will cause exessive cylinder heat. This heat can lead to detonation/pre ignition which only adds more heat to the cylinders. This is when you start burning pistons/valves (very bad!) Fuel in itself acts as a coolant in the cylinders. That's why it's always better to run a slightly richer (excessive fuel) mixture/ air fuel ratio. The excess fuel actually absorbs heat. This helps avoid the problems that could easily show up when lean. I guess short answer is, richer is better. But being lean is very hard on any engine and can cause serious problems.

Hope this explains some stuff :)

It does, thanks!

Septic.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Urizen;16499']thank you bliss :thumbsup: . you never stop learning new things.


It does, thanks!

Septic.

Don't want to go to far off topic of what this thread is supposed to be about but I'll explain a little more in depth with modern technology (aka fuel injected cars)

Now you know the bad stuff about being too lean (holes in pistons / burnt vavles etc). But did you knows modern vehicles from every manufacturer make/model don't actually maintain a perfect stochiometric air fuel mixture? You'd think with all this technology/sensors/computers/electronics that control modern powertrains (engine/transmission) that this would be easy pz! Well it would, but they can't do it. I'll go back to this in a second, but I must explain something else below.

A catalytic convertor, I'm sure everyone knows about. It coverts carbon emissions aka cleaner emissions. But did you ever think a catalytic converter acts the same as your combustion engine? Well it does! Your combustion engine needs a few things to make it go bang. One of which is obviously the fuel. The other is the oxygen in the air. Well a catalytic convertor works just like a engine in this regards. It needs 2 things to work as well. One thing is needs is heat, the other is oxygen. It's pretty obvious you'll have heat from the exhaust of your running engine, but where do you get oxygen from? This is why fuel injected cars (or should I say vehicles equipped with catalytic convertors) can't maintain a perfect stochiometric fuel/air mixture.

With that said, lets say you grab a modern automotive scan tool - a tool that lets you go into the various sensors and monitor them in real time as the engine is running. 1st thing you'll notice is the Oxygen sensors (O2) are constanly switching between 0.1 - 1 volts. Now I must sidetrack and go into how an oxygen sensor works lol. Well an oxygen sensor works the same way as a catalytic convertor. With heat + oxygen (the fuel source!) it creates voltage! So if you were to place an oxygen sensor in a vice and then use a torch/heat source on the metal end of it. If you had a DVOM (volt meter etc) hooked up to it, you'd notice voltage as you applied and released heat. (Outside air obviously has oxygen). The earliest oxygen sensors used to operate on a single wire. As emissions became more strict they now all have heaters in them. That way, when an engine is ice cold, the 02 sensor's own heater will warm up the sensor and allow it to work almost immediately off start up. This is all for emission's sake, as a closed loop system uses O2 sensors to help adjust the air/fuel mixture back at the engine. Cars even have O2 sensors located behind the catalytic converters as well, to monitor the cat's effectiveness.

So based on all this, and the fact some of these sensors are like an engine themselves, requiring their own fuel to work, if you think about it, it's amazing we really can't have a perfect air fuel mixture in today's world, but instead we must go slightly rich to slightly lean, etc., etc., etc., all the time just to make our simple automobiles work. I like cars (if anyone can't tell) and it's really neat to get into the theory of it all. I've built quite a few go fast cars, both with fuel injected and with carbs. Anyhow, I know a little about cars/engines etc.

[ATAG_Colander]

Interesting article here:
http://www.n66ap.alexap.com/Mixture_article.htm

[ATAG_Septic]

Don't want to go to far off topic of what this thread is supposed to be about but I'll explain a little more in depth with modern technology (aka fuel injected cars)

Now you know the bad stuff about being too lean (holes in pistons / burnt vavles etc). But did you knows modern vehicles from every manufacturer make/model don't actually maintain a perfect stochiometric ....

I tried hard but you lost me at "stochiometric", I learned enough to do the plugs and timing, I once managed to dismantle, clean and reassemble a twin Webber carb but I had a spring left over.

Cheers anyway, a valiant attempt to educate a pickled brain :)

[[FFCW]Urizen]

The things you can learn here :D