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Stigler
Aug-14-2012, 12:05
Hello,

I have no issues with anything just an idea to balance things a little. I like the AAA it usually hits something on the plane at lower altitudes >3500m about 25-33% of the time.

I do feel as though the player's AI gunner settings must be currently set at default Avg (7) since I have never had them hit or even damage anything, even when someone is sitting directly on 6 and has slowed down to snipe. People approaching from the rear 6 should be hit. Skilled fighter pilots still have no issue from the guns really when attacking from the correct aspect for that particular bomber. The bomber flying alone has a very large liability to any even somewhat skilled single fighter (ammo conservation is really your only worry, not being damaged.). 2-3 Bomber's flying together can even that out a little if the gunners have at least the skill to hit something, but player bombers in formation during public FFA are not as common as solo.

The player already has the task of flying and bombing, when attacked by a fighter they must take evasive action, not unrealistically try to gun. I flew the Ju-88 and Betty for the most part in IL-2 FB Online and while some think the gunners were snipers it was still rare to get a kill (in default FB models), yes engine damage to someone closing in on 6 but hey they deserve it, and the Betty had a 20mm which helped and the Ju-88 had 2 rear facing upper guns. Also if a Ju-88, Bf-110, Ju-87 can turn out of incoming fire and stay out of targets sights it should have a chance to hit something.

I propose custom settings for player AI gunnery and vision. Bombers have more sets of eyes dedicated to watching for fighters.

Now I am not sure of the amount of effect for the settings per notch so this is just a rough proposal.

default player AI is Avg 7, I am not sure if it is already custom, but it seems to be default. Veteran is 15.

bf-110 Gunnery 11 Vision 11
Ju-87 Gunnery 11 Vision 11
He-111's Gunnery 12 Vision 12
Ju-88 Gunnery 12 Vision 12

Maybe the He-111 down a notch since they have 5/6 guns. (No I am not biased! lol)

I do not know what the AI bomber groups are set to but I would Increase the default Blenheim to 15

I would also give the player flown Blenheim AI gunnery and vision a boost to 15 or more. I think any pilot brave enough to fly the Blenheim should get a crack gunner and vision. Plus it might help balance a little. Blenheim have it harder in all ways.

I am not sure how hard it is to attack AI formations of Ju-88's and He-111's as far as incoming fire hitting players who attack incorrectly. (Regardless of how much ammo it takes, it should not be a free easy kill.)

Anyway I would try it out maybe at least a notch at a time and see how it plays out.

Also what is the max turbulence, there are some clouds at times that literally drop the bomber out of the sky unrealistically with the overdone icing.


Stigler/Chromius

Doc
Aug-14-2012, 12:36
Hey man! Welcome to the forums!

Player flown Wellington would be sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet! But not sure if that is a typeo or not but that would rock!

Any who as I said welcome and get on teamspeak! And write these missions up as you see fit and lets discuss them. :thumbsup:

III./ZG76_Keller
Aug-14-2012, 13:06
Hi Stigler, if you like to fly bombers your only real protection is fighter escort. Get on Teamspeak and request escort when you're flying a bomber and I'll bet that, more often than not, someone will be willing to meet up with you.

I'm not sure that we want to start playing with the AI gunner settings in the server.

ATAG_Snapper
Aug-14-2012, 14:59
Hi Stigler, and welcome to the forum!

Wolf has recently done a fantastic job reefing up the gunners' accuracy for the AI bomber formations. Throttling back to sit behind an AI bomber is now foolhardy, if not suicidal. (Not to mention presenting an easy target to any 109 high escorts, anyway). If he can work the same marksmanship with the AI gunners on human-flown bombers, I'm up for the extra challenge! (The same would apply to human-piloted Blennies, too, of course). Unless the gunners have been taken out already (dead or wounded), the bombers should be buggers to get close to without a lot of speed and deflection.

As the others have said, obviously the best defense is fighter escort, but frequently you bomber drivers don't have that luxury. As a Spittie pilot, I believe I should be forced to have a significant speed advantage (ie height) and employ deflection shooting to have a reasonable expectation of success and survivability. Same goes for a 109 pilot attacking a Blenheim, IMHO.

Stigler
Aug-14-2012, 15:43
Thanks, :)

Yes, I meant Blenheim's, corrected. :)

I understand about fighter escort and agree with that, and should use TS more.... but the default AI gunner settings are abysmal. With the default settings if we had the same hit ratio in the real world they would have eliminated the guns to save weight. Really on full real there should be some sort of threat if attacking a bomber by slowing down on its six to snipe it to pieces instead of attacking in a historical manner. I do not want free kills, from all the times I have flown the 110 and bombers they have never hit anything, and I have heard the same from others.

Also I do not mind asking for escort, but I fly some long roundabout routes to the target and I think I would bore people pretty quick. (Clod is like my FSX combat simulator. lol)

There is a significant difference in the default ai gunner skill in Clod vs IL-2 4.11 and HSFX and I flew Spits vs 109, spits vs 109 mod, Zeke vs Wildcat, and SOV
I really feel as though bomber survivability (Not the ability to take damage which is better than ok.) is very low due to zero defensive capability with default gunners.

And yes Snapper, Wolf's Channel Command map and his tweaking is one of the reasons I though it would be ok to put forth the idea of tweaking ATAG #1 just a little. It could always just go a single notch and wait a week, does not have to be significant. And do you think the current ai gunners are pretty useless and not a threat even to a fighter attacking incorrectly?

And I really think the Blenheim (flying molotovs) should get a crack gunner regardless. Blue always has some bombers going and red is usually deficient, and after flying the Blenheim I feel sorry for the blokes over the ditch.

And remember I am not complaining just offering an idea and observation. Ill still be happy either way. (mumble, mumble, useless gunners) shh u didnt hear that.

"Insert Smiley face with frothy beer mug in hand here"

Dutch
Aug-14-2012, 16:01
Hallo Stigler mate. :)

I hear what you're saying. I'd love to have a crack shot in the back seat of my Blenny.

Unfortunately, (there's a cracking book by Richard Passmore, called 'Blenheim Boy', he was a rear gunner / wireless operator on Blenheims), the rear gun in the Blen was there to pretty much scare people away rather than shoot people down. Usually if an enemy fighter was in range for the little pea-shooter, it was already too late.

Richard Passmore used to yearn for a pair of Brownings, which themselves wouldn't have been too awe inspiring, but all he had was a little old Vickers.

I agree with him. :)

Doc
Aug-14-2012, 16:41
That's why I changed to head on passes. Just kill the brain and the rest goes with it.

ATAG_Bliss
Aug-14-2012, 17:27
Hello,

I have no issues with anything just an idea to balance things a little. I like the AAA it usually hits something on the plane at lower altitudes >3500m about 25-33% of the time.

I do feel as though the player's AI gunner settings must be currently set at default Avg (7) since I have never had them hit or even damage anything, even when someone is sitting directly on 6 and has slowed down to snipe. People approaching from the rear 6 should be hit. Skilled fighter pilots still have no issue from the guns really when attacking from the correct aspect for that particular bomber. The bomber flying alone has a very large liability to any even somewhat skilled single fighter (ammo conservation is really your only worry, not being damaged.). 2-3 Bomber's flying together can even that out a little if the gunners have at least the skill to hit something, but player bombers in formation during public FFA are not as common as solo.

The player already has the task of flying and bombing, when attacked by a fighter they must take evasive action, not unrealistically try to gun. I flew the Ju-88 and Betty for the most part in IL-2 FB Online and while some think the gunners were snipers it was still rare to get a kill (in default FB models), yes engine damage to someone closing in on 6 but hey they deserve it, and the Betty had a 20mm which helped and the Ju-88 had 2 rear facing upper guns. Also if a Ju-88, Bf-110, Ju-87 can turn out of incoming fire and stay out of targets sights it should have a chance to hit something.

I propose custom settings for player AI gunnery and vision. Bombers have more sets of eyes dedicated to watching for fighters.

Now I am not sure of the amount of effect for the settings per notch so this is just a rough proposal.

default player AI is Avg 7, I am not sure if it is already custom, but it seems to be default. Veteran is 15.

bf-110 Gunnery 11 Vision 11
Ju-87 Gunnery 11 Vision 11
He-111's Gunnery 12 Vision 12
Ju-88 Gunnery 12 Vision 12

Maybe the He-111 down a notch since they have 5/6 guns. (No I am not biased! lol)

I do not know what the AI bomber groups are set to but I would Increase the default Blenheim to 15

I would also give the player flown Blenheim AI gunnery and vision a boost to 15 or more. I think any pilot brave enough to fly the Blenheim should get a crack gunner and vision. Plus it might help balance a little. Blenheim have it harder in all ways.

I am not sure how hard it is to attack AI formations of Ju-88's and He-111's as far as incoming fire hitting players who attack incorrectly. (Regardless of how much ammo it takes, it should not be a free easy kill.)

Anyway I would try it out maybe at least a notch at a time and see how it plays out.

Also what is the max turbulence, there are some clouds at times that literally drop the bomber out of the sky unrealistically with the overdone icing.


Stigler/Chromius

Hi Stigler,

I agree with most of your points, but unless I'm missing something I don't think this can be done. For example, when an airfield is setup the only thing I can configure in the FMB for a particular spawn area is plane types. But if I was to place an AI plane on the ground, say in a COOP scenario, where a player could enter, then the particular weapon settings / AI gunners would be those I had setup for that particular AI plane.

I guess what I'm saying is: I would gladly do it as I agree with you, but the real question is, is this even possible to change for planes that spawn from spawn areas? I'll do some digging and see what I can find out, but I don't think I have any control over AI abilities from planes spawned from spawn areas in the DF server scenario.

If you know of a way or have heard of one, please let me know and I can try them.

Thanks.

Stigler
Aug-15-2012, 09:23
Ahh, ok that throws a big monkey wrench into things. I did not realize the mp spawns could not be adjusted. I will ask around and see if it is possible.

Thanks for your time.

Tonester
Aug-27-2012, 19:38
##doublepost..oops##

Tonester
Aug-27-2012, 19:39
Hey all...been away for a while...but used to fly the 110 alot, lovely bird, but the tail gunner couldnt hit a zeppelin if it was on my tail...infact only ever heard him actually fire a couple of times...he may as well have turned the gun on himself for all the good he was...generally if an EA got on my tail, and the pilot had ammo and half a brain, i was goin swimming...coz its hard to evade anything in a 110...particularly when you are a rubbish pilot like my good self...

ATAG_Bliss
Aug-27-2012, 20:03
Yep - another one of the bugs that's been long needed to be fixed :(

ATAG_Colander
Aug-27-2012, 21:24
This is going to be my standard reply from now on :D

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=954&d=1346116969




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