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Little_D
Aug-23-2012, 14:04
Hi Dutch,

nice find:

„Simply turning off temperature effects makes the Spit 20mph faster at sea level, 'with all gauges in the green', when compared to performance in the same test with temperature effects switched on, also 'with all gauges in the green'. „

So i dit some test offline too, with your settings and 100% fuel, no boost.
Start from the ground, climb to 100m and full power, trimmed, ball centert, i can get here to 480Km/H – 485Km/H, bullseye !! 25% fuel 490Km/H – 495Km/H, bullseye again !!

I test 20mm guns too ( belt: 3xMinengeschoss, 2xBrandgranate, 1xBrandspreng, .... ) :

All goes perfect: Cut in half, enginhod off, engin on fire and dark black smoke, wing off, fueltank on fire, cooler on fire, sometimes complet fall into parts when fueltank exblode.

All goes good: Pilotkill (i dont like pilotkills, everybody deserves the changs to surwife), Hurricane wing off, controlls gone, aileron gone, elevator gone, rudder gone, big holes in wings or clip wing, pilot bailed.

Test 1.In missionbuilder normal situation on ATAG: Spit/Hurri ( as blue, so no defence ), 300 Km/H -350 Km/H, alt 2500m, hdg 270. Me 109E-4 in 2 a clock high at 5000m from Spit/Hurri. 50xB&Z-atack`s to get results at different leads and angles:

Test 2. In missionbuilder normal situation on ATAG: Spit/Hurri ( as blue, so no defence ), 300 Km/H -350 Km/H, alt 2500m, left or rigth hand turn. For test i set Spit/Hurri to 360 degree tuns at 1 spot to get the light turning like online. Me 109E-4 2500m above Spit/Hurri. 50xB&Z-atack`s to get results at different leads and angles:

result 1: 40 perfect 10 good

result 2: 30 perfect 18 good, 2 no hits

When I hit online:

1.All goes perfect: Pilotkill (i dont like pilotkills, everybody deserves the changs to surwife), Hurricane wing off, controlls gone, aileron gone, elevator gone, rudder gone, big holes in wings or clip wing, sometimes burning engin or light burning cooler.

2.All goes good: you need only a second atack.

1&2 : All goes bad: you need more atacks.

Onnline i get 15 perfect 25 good and 10 no hits.

I know we have online different situation, but still for me the speed, gunpower, damagemoddel feels offline closer to history than online (from what i read from pilotnotes and other books of both sides.) . So when we hit the enemy and get the results from offline it would be perfect, because it still depents on some things: the right leed, hitting in convergens range, speeddifferens between the to planes, g-load off the parts that gets hit ( wings, rudder, etc. ), position of the to planes to each other etc.. So when every thing goes perfect i want the offline damge results. From 50xB&Z with 15 perfect, 25 good and 10 bad or no hits. I know offline set Spit/Hurri to blue and they make no defence. I dont care, because its only Gunpower and damage moddel. And online 70% – 85% of my victoms dont know that i am there till they get hit.

So for me it look likes that we need online the offline gunnpower for all planes ( Spit and Hurri hitting offline at convergens harder too) , the speed for all planes ( Spit/Hurri with 20mph+ and some more to reach historical speed at 100% fuel, and the extra plus depending on fuel load we are right at speed ) and the damagedmoddel from all planes to bring all planes closer together and closer to what it should be and with both sides can life, i hope.

To see what red has for a problem with the red planes specialy with the spit (to many post with the same repeating problems at 1c and other forumsand wy they repeat it 100 times again and again.

So i went on ATAG and on Repka, take me a Spit 100oct and make some flights to see what is with the spitfire. Starting the engin was not easy, till i saw ups forgot the fuelpump. Take of and fly around with 4,5 lbs boost at 2800 rpm, mixture blue flames, coller open, climb to alt and fly here at this settings to the limit to see how she reacts. Temps ok. For me she is nice to fly turns very good and roll as fast as the 109. The engin cut out for me is to slow, with a soft hand on the stick and with help of the rudder i can follow a 109 nose down and get a very short cut out, but i am in fireposition. On the controls she is easyer than the 109 and feels not so heavy as the 109 and like in the 109 i can feel that i am short about to stall. She loos not so mutch energy in turns as the 109 ( 109 is to mucht ) or dogfights but she loos energy and it feels right this way. About speed and climb i cant say mutch, speed i dont know the facts, climb feels ok ( i will say somthing to climb, engin cut out from my point of view, later). So all in all a nice plane, why red write so many posts? Ok Speed is to slow we all know. But wait overheating is a big problem. So i go to full pover, mixture blue flames, 2800rpm, cooler open, levelflight. I start to counter clock on x52 and after 1:29 minutes, engin death.

So from all post about the spit i read i have to say for me some are right some are not right:

Speed:
Spit i dont know but i trust the documents and onlinepilots i know, when they say it is to slow. And with Dutch find and what i write about speed i think plus 20mph – 30mph ( maby more or less mph ) and every thing is ok. 109 with offline speeds is perfect. Both has to be fixed soon.

Overheating: Oh boy are the knowing what they are doing at 1c? Thy claim to make the best flightsimulater and way better than old 1946! And than this? Sorry i feel with you red pilots. 109 temp is ok and overheating comes and in time ( 1.3 ATA, prop Auto, Steig/Kampfleistung ( climb/fightingpower) for 30 Min oil 75 – 80 degree after 30+ min it goes to 90 and higher. Oil on windscreen and than engindamaged. If i go to (1.35 ATA Full Power) when at 80 degree i have 5 Minuten before i reache 95 degree. 3 min later, sometimes earlyer, i get oil on windscreen and short after this engin damaged. If i run the engin cool at 65 degrees i have about 8 - 10 min ATA 1.35. Temps and overheating of 109 (exept water) ok. So Spit temp and overheating has to be fixed first bevor all other things. Because i think spit have the the same overheatingtimes or maby more/less min like the 109.

Engin cut out: I think in this case we never get all at one table. As i said before it comes to slow for me. When i see a spit in my six i put the nose down and in 70% of the situation now, i can see the spit put here nose down and have no problmes to follow me into the dive. So last patch was better, there they get the cut out when they try this and need to roll first.
This has to be fixed to again.

Climb:
Spit climbs good close to 109 maby no fix needed. Why i say this? Under my condition it climes good and when the correct the overheating and speed it will climb as good as the 109.

And the rest, like gunpower, rest of fm, dm, rudder, roll, handling at highspeed, alt, etc . we all know has to be fixed for all planes too.

And now some other thing:

I read in the last 30 jears a lot of books ( from german , english and us pilots and out of handbooks ) about the difference between the planes, to know that Spit and 109 where close toghether in BOB. And i read things like: i can turn with a Spit from a german pilot and somthing like i can outclimb a 109 from a spitpilot. Yes you can ist depends on so many things that it is possible. At same engery, speed, powersettings, pilotlevel, best turn/climb settings and alt (exept high alt) a spit will never outclime a 109 and a 109 will never outturn a Spit. Maby Spit/Spitpilot can climb with 109/109Pilot and 109/109Pilot can turn with Spit/Spitpilot, but the will nerver outclimb/outturn the other plane under same conditions and settings.

Sorry i write alot but this posts on 1c and the wrong things that get said from red/blue pilots about the planes from the other side and own planes makes me mad, because if it goes like this we get the acardeflightmoddel like we have now at 1946 with the last UltraPack or original 4.11 .

I mean thinks like:

I get outturnd by a 109 and than he climb like a rocket away, this is not possible. I think o boy if you fly low and slow and i come in with 700 Km/h and bleed in the right moment my speed i can turn 360 degree with you and kill you. If i miss i still have more energy as you and can climb hard away. If both turn low and slow and the spit/hurri pilot gets killed they did something wrong.

I get outclimbed by a spit after i atack here with B&Z this is not possible! Oh boy shure it was the same spit? Maby she was faster and had more energy as you think? Wrong climpath/settings? Normaly it is not possible.

I get outclimbed from a spit from low to high after turn/dogfight. Hello? Maby better spitpilot? Better energymanagement, loss not so mutch speed as you? Etc.

Ist so easy to shot down reds in 109 from red pilots. LOL Maby check more your six dont fly low and slow and with brain. If you make yourselfe an easy target ist your foult, nothing more. Even when you had the better plane like MK II with correkt FM close to real data like red says in the forum it was easy to kill red Spit MK II pilots because of there flyingstyl.

So i bet it will be the same like at Warbirds of Prey 1946, even if red flys there better latewar planes they get killed more than blue, because of there flyingstyl. And the same will happend on ATAG with CoD when we get the right fm/dm for all planes, red will get killed more than blue because of the flyingstyl.

You have in the moment not so good planes but still even with planes close to ours or better, the better kill to death ratio will be on the blue side. This is what i see on the servers in the last 3 jears of onlinefighting and this is true, dont matter what you say. All the red pilots i know personlay say the same after fly the 109 with me and my styl: It is so easy to kill red in 109 because of there flyingstyl and the flyingstyl i teach them. And 90% of the red Pilots where flying the same turn and burn flyingstyl bevor they meat me. And when the fly the red underdog planes they fly blue taktics and styl and kick blue asses.

When i get in trubble it is because of a high flying good/expert Spit/hurripilot that know what he can do and what not with his spit/hurri, and he flys with brain. And most of the time we fly both home because nobody can get a shot. In the moment it is easyer for me than normal, because of the problems the spit and the hurri have, but a good/expert SpitHurripilot that think about what he is doing can win the fight even in the spit/hurri you have right now. And when everything is corrected it will become mutch harder and more realistic for blue. If a red or blue pilot get shot down it dosent metter if enemy plane is better or has the right FM/DM etc. If you get shot down you make a mistake before, same counts for me, if i get killed i make a mistake.

A had to fight a lot at WoP in 1946 against better red planes that can outclimb, out run, out turn me and i still won 90% of my fight and will do the same in CoD if we get the corect FM/DM or reach erver the late war maps with stronger red planes. We have to take the FM/DM we get and have to live with it and change our flyingstyl and learn what we can do and what not with the FM/DM, even when we dont like it.

And to all that think i dont know what i am talking about or what i am doing, ask the red pilots from WoP or ATAG that fly with me, they can confirm that I know what I am talking about and what I know about onlinefighting. Most of the old WoP pilots know the guy that teach me everything about flyingstyl, shooting, tactics etc. and I had the honor to learn by one of the best blue onlinepilot I ever meet on the popular onlineserver, JG2_Reider.

Sorry again about this long post and maby some bad words, but this I had to say after I read over the last weeks the posts in 1c and other forums. I only whant to answer to Dutch about his interesting find, but than this come out and again the things I say about red pilots count for blue pilots too, to many on both side don’t know what they talking about and make stupit post and the last jears have shown that the FM change in the direction to the stubit post about FM/DM.

regards

Doc
Aug-23-2012, 14:21
Wow very detailed report. I need to finish reading this when I get home later. Thank you D for taking the time to share this.

Dutch
Aug-23-2012, 14:24
Wow! :)

Thanks Little_D, that was a lot of work and a very interesting post. I don't understand a lot of the engine settings for the 109, but it's nice to know that someone made the effort to check all this.

I'll read your post more carefully a couple of times to try and take it all in. My old brain is getting a bit slow...............:thumbsup:

Edit: Sorry Little_D, just to clarify, was this in the 109?;

'So i dit some test offline too, with your settings and 100% fuel, no boost.
Start from the ground, climb to 100m and full power, trimmed, ball centert, i can get here to 480Km/H – 485Km/H, bullseye !! 25% fuel 490Km/H – 495Km/H, bullseye again !!'

Which model please? :D

ATAG_Snapper
Aug-23-2012, 16:07
Excellent analysis, Little_D!

As Doc and Dutch have said, will take awhile to read it through carefully.

Thanks for your work on this.

Robo.
Aug-23-2012, 19:13
Yes of course, this flying of ours is not rocket science. :thumbsup:

Little_D
Aug-24-2012, 17:38
Hi gents,

thx for the nice words :salute:

there is more to write, still 5 pages left :geek: and still not finished. maby i make some more test with Spit/Hurri, like i did with my old report "one month red" back on WoP last year ( http://jagdgeschwader26.de/index.php?topic=106.0 ) scroll down for report in english, if you like.

Back to the report, when we all are honestly to each other, we can make tests over tests over test, its only depents on the pilot, nothing more. Why? the fm/dm if it is now better or worse than that of the nenemy has nothing to with getting killed or kill the enemy, its your skill, tactics, aiming and knowing what you are doing not more.

a good/very good red/blue online pilot will take the fm/dm that he get from the defs and learn to fly the plane he likes to the limmit and change his tactics and flyingstyl to the fm/dm he has, to see how fare he can go with his plane to win or survive a fight.
a bad/normal online pilot dont do this and blaming other or the fm/dm for his death or is mistakes. The right/wrong fm/dm makes life only easyer/harder nothing more. Things like overheating in Spit is a nogo, but there are still good/very good Spitpilots out there on ATAG, they fly with brain, skill and tactics an win there fights, even with this fm/dm why? the learn to fly the Spit under the current fm/dm to the limmit.

Sometime when i get pissed i blame the fm/dm too :geek: , but in the end its only me, i make the mistake not the fm/dm.

Dutch, yes it was the 109E-4 with AUTO on pitch.

regards

Dutch
Aug-24-2012, 21:02
Dutch, yes it was the 109E-4 with AUTO on pitch.

Thanks 'D'. Two of our guys have also found an increase in speed in the E4 while testing on server 2. Thanks for your input. :thumbsup: