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scpelly
Nov-29-2015, 03:38
Dear Team Fusion

I'm new to IL2 Cliffs of Dover and I'm really excited at the potential of the game. However, I've noticed the Spits and Hurricanes have an awful sharp right bank tendency on starting the game. My joystick is calibrated and I can sort of correct the problem with rudder trim but then I end up flying in a slip (yep, that's how much rudder is needed). PLEASE could you enable aileron trim for these aircraft as that will solve the problem perfectly. I know these planes didn't have aileron trim in real life but I must say this problem is so irritating that I've stopped playing the game. Would this be difficult to enable?

Many thanks
Steve

Mysticpuma
Nov-29-2015, 04:44
Hi Steve. I'm not going to say it isn't possible but you sort of answered your own question with "I know these planes didn't have aileron trim in real life".

Team Fusion have a huge list of things to fix, create, update, improve and add BUT this is a Flight Simulator and as such the aircraft and features are designed to be historic (as much as possible) and if an aircraft didn't have trim then that's exactly how it's modelled. Moving forward in real life aircraft for WW2, it was realised trim was important, that's why new aircraft had that feature included.

We are building new aircraft and as such these will include the features they had in real life, but adding features to aircraft to make them.easier to.fly isn't what a Simulation is about, it's about simulating the difficulty had by the fledgling aviators of WW2 and as such this isn't a bug but a simulated feature.

Sorry to be negative but it's better to be honest than raise false hope for an historical inaccurate feature.

Cheers, MP

scpelly
Nov-29-2015, 04:55
Hi MP

I hear you when it comes to keeping it real but that's just the point, a sharp bank to the right with all trims neutral and stick centred isn't realistic. If anything, the aircraft should be rolling left counter to the propeller. Here's a thought, as far as I know aileron trim could be adjusted by the ground crew (on the ground obviously), so the pilot could give feedback as to whether he felt the plane was rolling one way or another at a set speed (cruising speed usually). With a bit of trial and error, the ground crew could eventually set up aileron trim to his liking. Something like that could be built into the game and adjusted under an aircraft setup menu?

Steve

ATAG_Paranoid_Glitch
Nov-29-2015, 05:30
Dear Team Fusion

I'm new to IL2 Cliffs of Dover and I'm really excited at the potential of the game. However, I've noticed the Spits and Hurricanes have an awful sharp right bank tendency on starting the game. My joystick is calibrated and I can sort of correct the problem with rudder trim but then I end up flying in a slip (yep, that's how much rudder is needed). PLEASE could you enable aileron trim for these aircraft as that will solve the problem perfectly. I know these planes didn't have aileron trim in real life but I must say this problem is so irritating that I've stopped playing the game. Would this be difficult to enable?

Many thanks
Steve

Hi Steve

I think you may find that after a week or so your hand and mind have adjusted and you automatically fly with a bit of pressure on the stick for aileron adjustment all the time without thinking about it anymore.

That has been my experience.

Continu0
Nov-29-2015, 06:01
Hi MP

I hear you when it comes to keeping it real but that's just the point, a sharp bank to the right with all trims neutral and stick centred isn't realistic. If anything, the aircraft should be rolling left counter to the propeller. Here's a thought, as far as I know aileron trim could be adjusted by the ground crew (on the ground obviously), so the pilot could give feedback as to whether he felt the plane was rolling one way or another at a set speed (cruising speed usually). With a bit of trial and error, the ground crew could eventually set up aileron trim to his liking. Something like that could be built into the game and adjusted under an aircraft setup menu?

Steve

Hey Steve

What you are mentioning about the ground crew might be right, but trim is in close relationsship with speed. So at a certain speed, even in the game as it is now, the plane will fly quite straight. Your suggested solution would probably just shift the proble to another speed-range.

But something else: Please have a look at the aileron-positions in the game (look at your virtual wing). I had some strange bugs lately where my joystick was calibrated perfectly but the game didn't seem to read the joystick-position correctly, resulting in a rolling that was way too hard. I then discovered that the ailerons were slightly off on my virtual wing. Restarting the PC/Game did solve that.

I hope I was able to help,
Conti

1lokos
Nov-29-2015, 12:42
scpelly

You problem is:

The aileron trim is adjusted - by ground crew - for cruise speed, at specific RPM, in that speed Spit fly straight all day,
but when you go full throttle or near you need compensate with control column.

Anyway, if you want a "cheat" with these programming soft for HOTAS - TARGET, CH Manager ... you can set curves that "trim" Spit (or any plane, in any game) aileron at any speed.

scpelly
Nov-29-2015, 15:42
Guys thanks for all the feedback, but I feel we're missing the main point here - my aircraft rolls strongly to the right. If anything, it should roll to the left with trims neutral and the stick centred, as the prop is spinning clockwise (viewed from the cockpit).

Is this not a "bug" in the game? I'm also not sure if everybody is experiencing this same thing. I thought it may be my joystick but it seems the Logitek Extreme 3D pro is quite popular.

scpelly
Nov-29-2015, 15:52
Conti, I think you may be on the button here. With my joystick calibrated and centred, I see that I have some aileron for right bank on my wings. If I give a small push to the left, the ailerons neutralise and the banking stops. Unfortunately however mine is consistent, restarting the game and pc doesn't help at all. Do you think it may be the Logitek Extreme 3D Pro joystick being incompatible?

Steve



Hey Steve

What you are mentioning about the ground crew might be right, but trim is in close relationsship with speed. So at a certain speed, even in the game as it is now, the plane will fly quite straight. Your suggested solution would probably just shift the proble to another speed-range.

But something else: Please have a look at the aileron-positions in the game (look at your virtual wing). I had some strange bugs lately where my joystick was calibrated perfectly but the game didn't seem to read the joystick-position correctly, resulting in a rolling that was way too hard. I then discovered that the ailerons were slightly off on my virtual wing. Restarting the PC/Game did solve that.

I hope I was able to help,
Conti

-=7th-DR=-Milo
Nov-29-2015, 16:27
Guys thanks for all the feedback, but I feel we're missing the main point here - my aircraft rolls strongly to the right. If anything, it should roll to the left with trims neutral and the stick centred, as the prop is spinning clockwise (viewed from the cockpit).

Is this not a "bug" in the game? I'm also not sure if everybody is experiencing this same thing. I thought it may be my joystick but it seems the Logitek Extreme 3D pro is quite popular.

Hi Steve

I can't offer a solution but I can say that this doesn't sound like what I'm experiencing.

I get a slight roll but more often than not I can get it trimmed out pretty well (more problematic with the hurricane).

Hope that helps.

Continu0
Nov-29-2015, 17:14
Conti, I think you may be on the button here. With my joystick calibrated and centred, I see that I have some aileron for right bank on my wings. If I give a small push to the left, the ailerons neutralise and the banking stops. Unfortunately however mine is consistent, restarting the game and pc doesn't help at all. Do you think it may be the Logitek Extreme 3D Pro joystick being incompatible?

Steve

No, you should be fine with that joystick. 2 Things:

-Could you maybe post 2 Screenshots of your ailerons? I am looking forward to seeing it!

- Try setting up a minimal deadzone in the middle... probably 10% at maximum. I remember that I fixed it that way...

If that solves the problem, your complaint will be the key to solving a hughe problem. We really had a lot of people complaining about the really strong rolling, but the community always was like "no, it is realistic, it is how it is..." (which to some degree is true). But as I experienced the way too strong rolling out of a sudden myself, I fear that many of these complaints were justified and the community was wrong with helping...

scpelly
Nov-29-2015, 23:44
OK here we have the left and right wings, it's only a slight deflection of the ailerons but most easily seen on the right wing with that aileron slightly up - but it's enough to cause quite a heavy right roll. When I get a chance, perhaps tomorrow, I'll try and record a short screen capture video. I've set my dead zone on the stick up to 30% but it has no effect on this issue.

19731




No, you should be fine with that joystick. 2 Things:

-Could you maybe post 2 Screenshots of your ailerons? I am looking forward to seeing it!

- Try setting up a minimal deadzone in the middle... probably 10% at maximum. I remember that I fixed it that way...

If that solves the problem, your complaint will be the key to solving a hughe problem. We really had a lot of people complaining about the really strong rolling, but the community always was like "no, it is realistic, it is how it is..." (which to some degree is true). But as I experienced the way too strong rolling out of a sudden myself, I fear that many of these complaints were justified and the community was wrong with helping...

Continu0
Nov-30-2015, 02:16
OK here we have the left and right wings, it's only a slight deflection of the ailerons but most easily seen on the right wing with that aileron slightly up - but it's enough to cause quite a heavy right roll. When I get a chance, perhaps tomorrow, I'll try and record a short screen capture video. I've set my dead zone on the stick up to 30% but it has no effect on this issue.

19731

Where did you set up the deadzone? Ingame or in the stick-drivers?

scpelly
Nov-30-2015, 03:37
I've tried both. I'll check it again but as far as I remember the dead zone made absolutely no difference even with values as high as 30%. It's as if the game is reading a different 0 point for the joystick.


Where did you set up the deadzone? Ingame or in the stick-drivers?

Continu0
Nov-30-2015, 05:13
I've tried both. I'll check it again but as far as I remember the dead zone made absolutely no difference even with values as high as 30%. It's as if the game is reading a different 0 point for the joystick.

But can you feel the deadzone? I mean if you set up 30%, 30% of your axis should be empty, meaning that you really have to push the joystick to have any effect at all... do you feel that?

Btw. thx for the screenshots, your ailerons really seem to be off...

scpelly
Nov-30-2015, 06:07
Yep, I can feel the dead zone - in fact it makes things worse because I need a larger input before I can begin to correct the roll to the right. Here's something else that may help you - I unplugged the joystick and restarted the game - I get the exact same thing. If you guys can solve this problem that would be wonderful!



But can you feel the deadzone? I mean if you set up 30%, 30% of your axis should be empty, meaning that you really have to push the joystick to have any effect at all... do you feel that?

Btw. thx for the screenshots, your ailerons really seem to be off...

Mysticpuma
Nov-30-2015, 07:34
Do you have rudder pedals, a gamepad, anything else plugged in?

E69_Mezzer
Nov-30-2015, 08:43
Hi Steve

You may have the axis of your joystick assigned to the roll off-centered. There is a calibration software for joysticks and other hardware axes called DIView. It´s a lot of better than the Windows utility and much more precise and easier to check and get your hardware calibrated. Here is a link to download DIView --> DIView.zip (http://www.h-engineering.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/DIView.zip)

And a video tutorial on how to use it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Ut4R1O-Sw


Hope this helps
Regards Kelso

Continu0
Nov-30-2015, 13:01
hey

Btw. do you have that in other games too, or just in cliffs? Because if other games work fine, it is just not the joystick but cliffs!

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-30-2015, 15:31
CLIFFS OF DOVER is a historically based Simulation.

For that reason we do not make changes to aircraft which are not historical.

The historical Spitfire and Hurricane did not have aileron trim, and we will not incorporate it in the game.

Re. how the default trim is set:

Based on research, we determined historical cruise speed and rpm/throttle settings, and set the aileron trim to allow the aircraft to be in trim at that point.

1lokos
Nov-30-2015, 18:33
For that reason we do not make changes to aircraft which are not historical.

BTW - Looks that G-50 have more trim that should. :D

scpelly
Nov-30-2015, 22:41
Its just in Cliffs. I also fly the P51 in DCS and that is fine. Rise of flight is also fine.



hey

Btw. do you have that in other games too, or just in cliffs? Because if other games work fine, it is just not the joystick but cliffs!

scpelly
Dec-02-2015, 02:42
Buzzsaw, if this is the case please explain to me why my aircraft rolls to the right and not to the left, as would be expected?



CLIFFS OF DOVER is a historically based Simulation.

For that reason we do not make changes to aircraft which are not historical.

The historical Spitfire and Hurricane did not have aileron trim, and we will not incorporate it in the game.

Re. how the default trim is set:

Based on research, we determined historical cruise speed and rpm/throttle settings, and set the aileron trim to allow the aircraft to be in trim at that point.

ATAG_Dave
Dec-02-2015, 05:49
Buzzsaw, if this is the case please explain to me why my aircraft rolls to the right and not to the left, as would be expected?

Spitfires do not only roll to the right - it depends on your speed.......

scpelly
Dec-02-2015, 06:09
Just to be clear this is exactly what is happening:

With gyroscopic effects turned on:
At engine idle, very strong roll to the right
At medium throttle, rolls to the right
At full throttle, more gentle roll to the right (surely this should be left?)

With gyroscopic effects turned off:
Strong roll to the right

Joystick works fine in Rise of flight, and flying the P51 in DCS



Spitfires do not only roll to the right - it depends on your speed.......

E69_Mezzer
Dec-02-2015, 09:56
Just to be clear this is exactly what is happening:

With gyroscopic effects turned on:
At engine idle, very strong roll to the right
At medium throttle, rolls to the right
At full throttle, more gentle roll to the right (surely this should be left?)

With gyroscopic effects turned off:
Strong roll to the right

Joystick works fine in Rise of flight, and flying the P51 in DCS

Hi scpelly,

Assuming that your joystick is actually properly calibrated and is not giving any input roll in the center position, the ailerons should be aligned with the wings.
Please try the following to troubleshoot the issue:

Go to the game Options/Realism, untick the following options to set them off:

Engines
-Complex Engine Management
-Engine Temperature Effects

Atmosphere and Handling
-Wind and turbulence
-Flutter Effects
-Torque and Gyro Effects
-Stalls and Spins

-Make sure that the Anthropomorphic Control is untick, off.

Get into your favorite single engine fighter plane, take off and fly around. Before take off check your ailerons position, joystick neutral the ailerons should be aligned with wing, no roll input.
Go back to the game Options/Realism and set the previous options back to on except the Anthropomorphic Control, it should be off all the time. Jump again into your single engine plane and test again.

Baaz
Feb-23-2016, 00:30
Try setting the sensitivity for x, and y axis to zero from in game options....I have found that the aircraft is very responsive to your joystick inputs when you set the sensitivity to zero.

Baffin
Feb-24-2016, 10:34
Hi Steve. I'm not going to say it isn't possible but you sort of answered your own question with "I know these planes didn't have aileron trim in real life".

Team Fusion have a huge list of things to fix, create, update, improve and add BUT this is a Flight Simulator and as such the aircraft and features are designed to be historic (as much as possible) and if an aircraft didn't have trim then that's exactly how it's modelled. Moving forward in real life aircraft for WW2, it was realised trim was important, that's why new aircraft had that feature included.

We are building new aircraft and as such these will include the features they had in real life, but adding features to aircraft to make them.easier to.fly isn't what a Simulation is about, it's about simulating the difficulty had by the fledgling aviators of WW2 and as such this isn't a bug but a simulated feature.

Sorry to be negative but it's better to be honest than raise false hope for an historical inaccurate feature.

Cheers, MP
That's not negative! That's the reason we enjoy CLoD so much... Realism! :thumbsup:

arnesw
Aug-31-2016, 19:17
That's not negative! That's the reason we enjoy CLoD so much... Realism! :thumbsup:

For my part - that's why I don't enjoy CLoD at all. There are options to switch off just about any other realism feature, including torque effects, but this one - that clearly annoys a lot of potential users - is apparently a 'realism' feature that is too important to sacrifice for the sake of playability.

I have no right to demand a fix, of course. If this is how you feel it should be - that's fine. To me, this single issue is the deal breaker.

Tibsun
Sep-01-2016, 02:23
Please check out your callibration, for general controllers on W7 go to your device, right mouse then controller settings and open your callibration with control + shift + left mouse at properties and recalibrate it there if it is off.

To fly hands free, fly as slow and center your "ball" with rudder (important to stop slip an roll too!) until your handsfree with your power settings. Your gonna need to climb anyway.
If it's still a problem you might get an weaker stick or take out the spring.

SIA_Sp00k
Sep-01-2016, 03:41
For my part - that's why I don't enjoy CLoD at all. There are options to switch off just about any other realism feature, including torque effects, but this one - that clearly annoys a lot of potential users - is apparently a 'realism' feature that is too important to sacrifice for the sake of playability.

I have no right to demand a fix, of course. If this is how you feel it should be - that's fine. To me, this single issue is the deal breaker.

There is a flip side to that story. While I accept what you say broadens the player base for offline play, it's the difficulty online, which levels the playing field in multiplayer that keeps me there. Every aircraft has its own nuances. Every player has to deal with and learn from them, using their strengths and avoiding their weaknesses. As a result, there a players I fear, not because they are better than me, but because they know their aircraft and its strengths better than I know my own. This challenge inspires me to learn more and continually seek to best my previous efforts. Some I may never beat and in that I shall always have a game with an element of fear in the air. All those little settings add up to my gaming experience and keeps me coming back.

I know there are players that will only ever play offline. Often, I see other offline pilots posts which say, I am not ready yet for online play. If the options are there which allow easy play, many will never challenge themselves to be better than they have to be for AI aircraft. Improvement through adversity, sounds good to me.

Hope you take the plunge and join us online.

ATAG_Dave
Sep-01-2016, 07:16
For my part - that's why I don't enjoy CLoD at all. There are options to switch off just about any other realism feature, including torque effects, but this one - that clearly annoys a lot of potential users - is apparently a 'realism' feature that is too important to sacrifice for the sake of playability.

I have no right to demand a fix, of course. If this is how you feel it should be - that's fine. To me, this single issue is the deal breaker.

If you have the very affordable and very good Thrustmaster T16000M joystick (or a warthog for that matter but that would be a bit pointless if not playing at full real settings) you can very easily have aileron trim in any plane you like in CLOD using the (free) Thrustmaster TARGET software :thumbsup:

Baffin
Sep-01-2016, 09:41
Guys thanks for all the feedback, but I feel we're missing the main point here - my aircraft rolls strongly to the right. If anything, it should roll to the left with trims neutral and the stick centred, as the prop is spinning clockwise (viewed from the cockpit).

Is this not a "bug" in the game? I'm also not sure if everybody is experiencing this same thing. I thought it may be my joystick but it seems the Logitek Extreme 3D pro is quite popular.

This is a bug in the game... The same way it's a bug in a real airplane when it trims out at the wrong speed. Next time you land, you bend the trim tab or write it up for the mechanic to do. Your point is well taken that there is currently no way to do this in our CLoD simulator. Adding adjustments to the airplane setup menu is the obvious answer, but who's going to do it? Team Fusion is the answer but their hands are simply full of other projects right now. It is one of those conundrums we must either live with or else perform some self-help.

As previously mentioned, you may adjust the aileron trim with a simple script in the TARGET Script editor (NOT the GUI) for Thrustmaster products.

From T.A.R.G.E.T Script Editor Basics User Manual v1.5 – page 29/60:

MapKey(&Joystick, H1L, REXEC(0, 100, "TrimDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, -5);"));//Aileron Trim Left
MapKey(&Joystick, H1R, REXEC(0, 100, "TrimDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, 5);"));//Aileron Trim Right
MapKey(&Throttle, EORIGN, EXEC("TrimDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, SET(0));"));//Center Aileron Trim

Depending on your level of self discipline, you can set this up to constantly have aileron trim available, or you may choose different key mappings that make it very difficult or impossible to use while flying. I choose the former since I fly all the different planes and try to trim it for cornering speed and then train my feet for yaw control. I'd be lying though, if I did not admit that I sometimes cheat and just trim it out for extended climbs.

Perfection is elusive... Sometimes we have to simply "Live with it!" :hpyflying:

Baffin
Sep-01-2016, 10:16
CLIFFS OF DOVER is a historically based Simulation.

For that reason we do not make changes to aircraft which are not historical.

The historical Spitfire and Hurricane did not have aileron trim, and we will not incorporate it in the game.

Re. how the default trim is set:

Based on research, we determined historical cruise speed and rpm/throttle settings, and set the aileron trim to allow the aircraft to be in trim at that point.


Could you please post what "historical cruise speed and rpm/throttle settings" you have used to program trimmed flight. I suspect we may change some minds if we can empirically demonstrate that our planes do trim out in specific conditions. Without the expected conditions to test against, the complaints will never stop coming in.

I, for one, would be willing to cruise at 230 MPH instead of 280 if the plane is supposed to be trimmed for that cruise speed. The pilots notes seem a little weak on cruise flight definitions, only specifying max endurance and max range settings. I'm sure it's published somewhere but I can't find it today.

Baffin
Sep-01-2016, 10:56
This post may seem to disagree with my preceeding reply which is about how we deal with the aileron trim problem as it exists now. After re-reading Buzz's statement I still maintain that TF has a full plate and I respect his desire not to change the current configuration in the interests of historical accuracy. As a zealot for historical realism myself, I'd like to present some "Middle Ground" for satisfying all our players.

To split hairs, the Hurricane and Spitfire did have aileron trim... they simply did not have ADJUSTABLE INFLIGHT aileron trim. There is a valid argument to be made for preflight trim adjustment in our CLoD simulator.

If a preflight aileron trim setting was available (± from zero within limits) in a .ini file, what would it hurt? Realism could be retained since we can't change such .ini trim settings after the game starts. We could retain "FIXED INFLIGHT" trim but allow players to make preflight adjustments, making the game at least playable for all. Purists may still elect to use the default settings and since there is no impact during combat because aileron trim would still remain FIXED in flight, fairness in the game is not compromised. (I can't imagine anyone trimming ailerons in combat anyway.)

FYI... Using the Thrustmaster Warthog with TARGET Script Editor software, I apply only four or five keypresses to trim my ailerons before takeoff. After that, I never need to adjust it. My feet do the rest instinctively with rudder. It does seem a little unfair that my "High rent" controller can set the initial trim while others cannot.

I implore TF to discuss this proposal. I know nothing of the workload involved but if it is possible, adding preflight aileron trim adjustment could mitigate this problem which has been with us since day one. :salute:

1lokos
Sep-01-2016, 11:33
...adding preflight aileron trim adjustment could mitigate this problem which has been with us since day one. :salute:

Yes, the problem as been since day one... but because players are used to cruise with "80%, 90%, 100%" power all time - as in any CFS. :D

Just point a fact, not that I disagree (or agree) with your opinion. ;)

BTW - Under users pressure DCS add option to adjust fixed trim tabs in Bf 109 and Fw 190 to users preferred "cruise speed".

https://s16.postimg.org/u3jr5sed1/trim.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4xisyyd2p/)free upload image (https://postimage.org/)

Tibsun
Sep-01-2016, 11:40
Yes, the problem as been since day one... but because players are used to cruise with "80%, 90%, 100%" power all time - as in any CFS. :D

BTW - Under users pressure DCS add option to adjust fixed trim tabs in Bf 109 and Fw 190 to users preferred "cruise speed".


True that, let's see how many Hurries ans Spitties crash on take off because they trimmed it more to the left, cause they thought it only rolls right :D
Considering the big sideslip it is already doing.

Killerwhale
Sep-04-2016, 19:20
I had another thing in mind, it is difficult to fly bombers especially the RAF ones since they don't have the ability to hold course, I know some german bombers do such as the ju88 and bf-110. it is really difficult to be holding your joystick all the time. any help in this area?

1lokos
Sep-04-2016, 21:47
I had another thing in mind, it is difficult to fly bombers especially the RAF ones since they don't have the ability to hold course, I know some german bombers do such as the ju88 and bf-110. it is really difficult to be holding your joystick all the time. any help in this area?

TF 4.0 add the same Autopilot (Kurssteurung) system of German bomber in Blenheim, a "historic deviation" to make level bombing practical. Look at Flight School.

Killerwhale
Sep-04-2016, 22:17
Thank you lokos

Baffin
Sep-05-2016, 10:29
I had another thing in mind, it is difficult to fly bombers especially the RAF ones since they don't have the ability to hold course, I know some german bombers do such as the ju88 and bf-110. it is really difficult to be holding your joystick all the time. any help in this area?

Blenheim autopilots hold course very well in level, unaccellerated flight, especially during low-level navigation. However, the CLoD RAF magnetic compass is extremely susceptible to dip error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_compass_turns during the climb when the pitch attitude is high. We are also plagued with unusable directional gyros (DG) so there's no way I know of to compensate using an instrument cross-check.

To fly a plotted course, I teach the pilot to establish level, unaccellerated flight while navigating the desired plotted course. Then use the gunsight to find a distant object. Even a cloud will do until you can spot an object on shore. You may then set up your climb while visually navigating towards the selected object. The compass will be inaccurate, but the autopilot course hold function can be used with reference to the zero on the DG. Once you level off at cruise altitude, the compass should return to the original on-course indication. I realize this is imperfect, but it will work to keep you going in the right general direction until you can resume pilotage navigation. http://www.experimentalaircraft.info/flight-planning/pilotage-dead-reckoning.php

One confidence builder is to set a 124 degree course from Ramsgate Harbor accross the ditch. Using the autopilot to cross at or below 400' MSL gives no visual navigation cues until landfall just east of the Dunkirk suburbs. It's a great way to cross unmolested and should reassure you that the compass system is OK during level, unaccellerated flight. :wings:

Roblex
Sep-05-2016, 12:23
Buzzsaw, if this is the case please explain to me why my aircraft rolls to the right and not to the left, as would be expected?

It seems to me that if you bend a fixed trim tab to exactly compensate for the rolling forces on a spit at 250MPH and 2600rpm (figures chosen at random) then at other speeds/rpm the trim tab will be causing roll either to left or right depending on whether you are above or below 250MPH or 2600rpm. It is the same as if you had asked your groundcrew to apply a fixed amount of rudder trim to compensate for a flight due North from A to B which has a crosswind of exactly 20kts from 290 degrees while you are maintaining exactly 250MPH. That rudder trim will only work at that precise speed and going faster or slower will produce a deviation to either NNE or NNW

Personally I find that the hurricane & spit have TWO equilibrium points; at low speed & high revs while climbing and at high speed low revs while cruising. Regardless, as mentioned by someone else earlier, you very soon find that you automatically compensate as the real life pilots did and don't even notice any tendency to roll.

Baffin
Sep-05-2016, 13:32
Roblex is correct. With some rather esoteric variations to the rule, the plane will be in trim for only one speed. That is why it usually is set for a CRUISE speed that satisfies the normal use of the airplane. It might be set for max endurance speed for a reconnaisance plane, max speed for an interceptor, or max distance for any plane, a bomber perhaps, that must go the long distance. In short, it is set up for the longest stable condition during which the pilot will simply monitor the flight.

In all other phases of flight, the pilot will be "hands on" anyway. He will be normally manipulating the elevator, ailerons and rudder to compensate for normal climb/descent variations. No sense having it trimmed precisely when the pilot is actively using his stick & throttle skills, such as during combat.

Like 1Lokos said earlier, the problem lies with pilots cruising at speeds other than that for which the plane is trimmed by design. We have three ways to deal with this problem: One is to publish the "Trim" speed for each airplane and expect pilots to cruise at that speed. Next, is to make it possible for pilots to adjust the "Trim" speed before they take off (the Compromise). Finally, leave things the way they are, leaving each man to figure out what works best for the experienced pilot, who's willing to experiment.

Either one of the first two solutions can address the complaints about the rolling tendency. :flying2:

Kai Lae
Sep-06-2016, 17:21
There's no way to have the requested trim in game, and there shouldn't be.

Having said that, you can "cheat" if you want. Get a CH products fighterstick. First it's a great stick. Second, and more important to the discussion, is that it comes with aileron and elevator trim knobs on the stick. Want to trim the plane and it never had the setting IRL? Just move the tabs some, easy.

Baffin
Sep-07-2016, 09:39
CLIFFS OF DOVER is a historically based Simulation.

For that reason we do not make changes to aircraft which are not historical.

The historical Spitfire and Hurricane did not have aileron trim, and we will not incorporate it in the game.

Re. how the default trim is set:

Based on research, we determined historical cruise speed and rpm/throttle settings, and set the aileron trim to allow the aircraft to be in trim at that point.

Can you please post the Cruise speed, and RPM used to set the aileron trim as described above? :joystick:

Talisman
Sep-07-2016, 10:31
There's no way to have the requested trim in game, and there shouldn't be.

Having said that, you can "cheat" if you want. Get a CH products fighterstick. First it's a great stick. Second, and more important to the discussion, is that it comes with aileron and elevator trim knobs on the stick. Want to trim the plane and it never had the setting IRL? Just move the tabs some, easy.

What a shame to find out that there is a "cheat" available to obtain non-historic flight controls. I suppose it is not possible to stop this sort of thing, but I wish it was.

As for aileron trim in Hurry and Spit, well, I just don't see any drama at all in the way TF has this modelled at the moment and I just compensate as appropriate. In fact I would go as far as to say that I consider it a non-issue and don't understand the fuss about it. If anyone has a big drama with the way the Spit and Hurry fly in terms of aileron I would suspect a problem with the joystick or another associated issue rather than the way TF has modelled it.

In short, no reason for any complaints, no problem and no solution needed IMHO. Sorry if that sounds hard, but I think pilots just need to deal with the trim and get on with it. I am just very sorry to hear that historical trim controls can be cheated.

Happy landings,

Talisman

1lokos
Sep-07-2016, 11:50
=Talisman;241905 I am just very sorry to hear that historical trim controls can be cheated.


Why some people praise "TARGET, CH Manager..." they allow "cheater" :devilish: - by software - any game controls by axis behavior manipulation. :D

What make the dumb "Autopilot for Level Flight" in RoF/IL-2 Bo"X" make some sense, after all people will use similar "cheater" be 3rd part software or hardware if they can.
So, this trim "cheater" is available for all...

Talisman
Sep-08-2016, 15:04
Why some people praise "TARGET, CH Manager..." they allow "cheater" :devilish: - by software - any game controls by axis behavior manipulation. :D

What make the dumb "Autopilot for Level Flight" in RoF/IL-2 Bo"X" make some sense, after all people will use similar "cheater" be 3rd part software or hardware if they can.
So, this trim "cheater" is available for all...

So perhaps we have a cheat simulator available for all; great, not. Perhaps the same people that use this unhistorical trim cheat might also complain and argue about flight model details to the minute degree on the forums until the cows come home, then use software to get around any features they do not like, find hard to handle or just don't want to put up with in their favourite ride. Then they might post loads of movie clips of their flying as great aces with specially selected moments shooting down other pilots. LOL.

Happy landings,

Talisman

1lokos
Sep-08-2016, 15:20
Perhaps the same people that use this unhistorical trim cheat might also complain and argue about flight model details to the minute degree on the forums... LOL.


For what I know, they do this... specially about Luftwaffe planes. :)

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-08-2016, 18:18
Often, I see other offline pilots posts which say, I am not ready yet for online play. If the options are there which allow easy play, many will never challenge themselves to be better than they have to be for AI aircraft. Improvement through adversity, sounds good to me.

Hope you take the plunge and join us online.

Absolutely agree.

Jump in and fly the plane...

the only hostility you will find will be from the guy on your six... and he will most likely salute you...

the water is warm... dip your toes in...

Baffin
Sep-10-2016, 10:53
We need to be careful about who we consider to be "Cheating". Very few of us operate the controls the way RAF pilots did in the actual airplane.

Elevator trim required the use of the left hand on the side panel of the RAF Fighters... right hand for bombers. (There was no electric trim button on the stick).
Landing gear retraction/extension required changing hands on the stick to raise the gear lever with the right hand. (No gear toggle button anywhere) Who does that in CLoD? ...very few!

So when new, inexperienced players (players, not pilots), request a simple solution to a problem that has plagued us all from time to time, be gentle with them. Once they figure out trim, torque, P-factor and all that other stuff, they might choose to operate authentically. None of us is perfect.

Dedicated cheaters will always be with us. There's a difference between occasionally flying too low, and flying "in" the trees... :hpyflying:

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-11-2016, 05:23
Wise words.

ATAG_Knuckles
Sep-11-2016, 09:25
I am one of those cheaters: using the TARGET software, about a year ago I aquiread a bug that gave me about 2deg of right aileron on the Blenheim,(theres a thread somewhere here that shows photos) tried every fix suggested nothing worked, . It made flying that airplane pretty much worthless, so yeah I cheat !!!!

lil_head
Sep-11-2016, 09:56
I am one of those cheaters: using the TARGET software, about a year ago I aquiread a bug that gave me about 2deg of right aileron on the Blenheim,(theres a thread somewhere here that shows photos) tried every fix suggested nothing worked, . It made flying that airplane pretty much worthless, so yeah I cheat !!!!

I cheat.
I use target software when I bought the T16000. I had to, compared to my last 2 joysticks the rudder twist stick was way too sensitive. Tiny adjustments left my aircraft swaying all over the place. It made flying rediculously harder than the other twist sticks I had. Just placing my hand on the stick often had my rudder going one way or another. So I use target to soften or dampen it a bit.
On saying that the T16000 is a far better joystick than my last 3 which were all sub $80. With the T16000 I felt that I was getting a much more responsive joystick. My hurricane could roll far quicker and felt less sluggish in manoeuvering. I felt like I had a joystick that was actually working 100%.

My first 3 joysticks were cheating me.

Talisman
Sep-11-2016, 09:57
We need to be careful about who we consider to be "Cheating". Very few of us operate the controls the way RAF pilots did in the actual airplane.

Elevator trim required the use of the left hand on the side panel of the RAF Fighters... right hand for bombers. (There was no electric trim button on the stick).
Landing gear retraction/extension required changing hands on the stick to raise the gear lever with the right hand. (No gear toggle button anywhere) Who does that in CLoD? ...very few!

So when new, inexperienced players (players, not pilots), request a simple solution to a problem that has plagued us all from time to time, be gentle with them. Once they figure out trim, torque, P-factor and all that other stuff, they might choose to operate authentically. None of us is perfect.

Dedicated cheaters will always be with us. There's a difference between occasionally flying too low, and flying "in" the trees... :hpyflying:

I agree with you in the main. However, I believe that CloD does in fact allow for a lot of easier flying options for PC pilots if they chose to tick or untick the range of difficulty boxes on offer. So it would appear that some attempt has been made to assist inexperienced PC pilots. PC simulation obviously has its limits and available controls for trim, for example, are limited to key pad presses and HOTAS axis in a different way than in a real cockpit. But, lets be clear, if a PC pilot was to go out of their way to deliberately use a work-around to totally avoid or make a real life flight characteristic easier, when it is part of the design of the flight simulation and painstaking aircraft flight modelling, on a full real competitive human vs human MP server, that is not something I could support.
If an inexperienced PC pilot wants to fly CloD on easy settings off-line or on an easy settings MP server that's great. :thumbsup: And when they are able to join full switch servers that is even better. :salute:

Happy landings,

Talisman

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-11-2016, 15:58
Not sure how a stick with aileron trim differs much from a Sidewinder 2 FFB stick which, flown with 2 fingers, is non-centering and thus allows hands-free wings-level flight with yaw gauge centred.

In any kind of dogfight, with frequent changes to CEM, speed, altitude, attitude, etc etc an extra aileron trim is just another control to constantly manipulate. I sure as heck don't fly my SW2 FFB stick with 2 fingers in a dogfight, but I do make frequent adjustments to rudder trim to maximize my speed and true my aim.

Other than enabling a player to fly wings-level hands free with no yaw to get another beer or make a quick nature call, I don't see a huge advantage to an aileron trim. Even in a high speed pursuit or evasion where a well-trimmed Spit or Hurricane is absolutely necessary, a manual joystick hold to keep wing-level fight with rudder trimmed is not a deal-breaker.

The type of stuff which would cause ATAG concern on the server would be hacks of the code to give someone an unfair advantage in performance, weaponry, or damage modelling. Even flying through trees is more unsporting rather than cheating; one mouse click in Video Settings allows anyone to eliminate trees altogether (and give those with marginal PC's a frame rate boost) which utterly defeats that behaviour. If anyone flies through trees to evade you, consider yourself the victor and savour the moment.

Just my 2-cents. :salute:

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-11-2016, 16:17
Mostly (mostly I said just to be clear !!) the only time I trim up is when in a blennie... or if I want to go to the fridge...

the rest of the time I'm either using the rudder or the stick... ie... flying the plane !! and countering wind and so on as required.

When I want to fly hands and feet off obviously I will trim... or if there is a REALLY heavy cross wind and I'm on a 5 minute cruise to france / back home.

Thing is... given that you can trim out most twist with rudder and elevator trim anyway... I dont really see why anyone would seriously think that having no aileron trim is even an issue.


If I'm darting about all over the shop in a dog fight the last thing I'm thinking about is trimming anything...

But here's actually why I hardly ever trim:


It makes sence if you are flying straight... but i have a tendancy to avoid that when in a combat zone !!

and trimming to counter a side wind doesn't help at all the moment you turn and have effectively the exacty opposite side wind.

Last thing I need is that thrown into the mix while I'm trying to shake a 109.

I guess this would be different if I had a hard centering joystick...

then again maybe not... either way... I'd miost likely adapt to suit !

=FI=Murph
Sep-11-2016, 16:41
I have all CH gear, and it has never occurred to me to try trimming using the little wheels on the fighterstick. This is not because I am particularly moral, it just seems like too much bother. The distances one flies in this sim are relatively short, and I don't find it necessary to trim for level flight. I don't find the planes to be far out of trim most of the time such that I need trim other than for pitch, which I do rather a lot, and rudder, which I use hardly at all beyond centering the ball.
If someone finds the planes to be far out of trim, and has not been able to correct it because of a problem with hardware, I would not consider it a cheat to use something like the trim wheels on the stick to correct it- I think of it as resetting the stick's center in a way. The wheels on the CH fighterstick are so oversensitive they would be useless for anything else.
It might also be worth pointing out that many RAF fighter pilots during the BoB deliberately trimmed their planes to fly crooked, in order to throw off the aim of Luftwaffe pilots.

Baffin
Sep-11-2016, 17:40
We still haven't heard at what cruise speed, altitude and power configuration the CLoD airplanes' ailerons are programmed to be in trim. Why the big secret? I'll just fly the historically accurate cruise speed and forget about the aileron trim. :wf:

Baffin
Sep-11-2016, 18:00
I agree with you in the main. However, I believe that CloD does in fact allow for a lot of easier flying options for PC pilots if they chose to tick or untick the range of difficulty boxes on offer. So it would appear that some attempt has been made to assist inexperienced PC pilots. PC simulation obviously has its limits and available controls for trim, for example, are limited to key pad presses and HOTAS axis in a different way than in a real cockpit. But, lets be clear, if a PC pilot was to go out of their way to deliberately use a work-around to totally avoid or make a real life flight characteristic easier, when it is part of the design of the flight simulation and painstaking aircraft flight modelling, on a full real competitive human vs human MP server, that is not something I could support.
If an inexperienced PC pilot wants to fly CloD on easy settings off-line or on an easy settings MP server that's great. :thumbsup: And when they are able to join full switch servers that is even better. :salute:

Happy landings,

Talisman

You're missing the point... There should not be a need for a "work around". Airplanes are designed to cruise at some speed with the ailerons in trim. These frustrated players will fly that speed if they can find out what it is and the power settings associated with it. In any case, these "simplicity" settings are not available in the online simulation... Only offline.

Personally, I've been unable to find a stable cruise speed for the RAF Fighters without a constant aileron input. Maybe someone can post a speed, altitude, RPM and manifold boost pressure that establishes coordinated level flight for Spitfires and Hurricanes without a roll. That would solve this cruise rolling problem. I'm starting to think that such a condition does not exist so I am inclined to question the accuracy of this aspect of the flight modelling. I hope someone can prove me wrong...

Our objective is to fix the problem or else explain and demonstrate that there is no problem. Denial is not a solution.

Baffin
Sep-11-2016, 18:08
I am one of those cheaters: using the TARGET software, about a year ago I aquiread a bug that gave me about 2deg of right aileron on the Blenheim,(theres a thread somewhere here that shows photos) tried every fix suggested nothing worked, . It made flying that airplane pretty much worthless, so yeah I cheat !!!!

That's not cheating! It's correcting a flaw in the flight model with the facilities you have on hand.:flying2:

PhoenixCNE
Sep-11-2016, 18:40
I was under the impression that most of the ww2 era single engine fighters were pretty much hands on stick the entire time and optimal trim just meant you weren't giving yourself a cramp in the arm to keep it straight ... If I need to let go of the stick for a minute a bit of rudder will induce a tiny bit of roll so hands off stick can be definitely done momentarily but I would say there is never a time that the plane will fly straight with absolutely no input.

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-11-2016, 20:16
I was under the impression that most of the ww2 era single engine fighters were pretty much hands on stick the entire time and optimal trim just meant you weren't giving yourself a cramp in the arm to keep it straight ... If I need to let go of the stick for a minute a bit of rudder will induce a tiny bit of roll so hands off stick can be definitely done momentarily but I would say there is never a time that the plane will fly straight with absolutely no input.

Yep... trim is there to take the physical pressure off the pilot. Its not "needed"... but it makes sence in some applications.

I supposed it's the aviation equivelent of cruise control in a car... kinda


In any case...

I'm a sucker for keeping my hands and feet on the controls.

Stops the plane going some place I don't want.

;)

Baffin
Sep-12-2016, 11:16
Trim is essential! The old flight instructor adage, "Trim, Trim, Trim... Trim is your friend", is a mainstay of aircraft control. The pejorative term for a pilot who does not trim is "Ham-Hands"!

Aileron trim is the soft-exception to the rule, since it does not exist in a lot of airplane types, new and old, and has no timely place in active air-to-air combat.

Don't be "Ham-Handed"... TRIM! :joystick:

Talisman
Sep-12-2016, 11:59
You're missing the point... There should not be a need for a "work around". Airplanes are designed to cruise at some speed with the ailerons in trim. These frustrated players will fly that speed if they can find out what it is and the power settings associated with it. In any case, these "simplicity" settings are not available in the online simulation... Only offline.

Personally, I've been unable to find a stable cruise speed for the RAF Fighters without a constant aileron input. Maybe someone can post a speed, altitude, RPM and manifold boost pressure that establishes coordinated level flight for Spitfires and Hurricanes without a roll. That would solve this cruise rolling problem. I'm starting to think that such a condition does not exist so I am inclined to question the accuracy of this aspect of the flight modelling. I hope someone can prove me wrong...

Our objective is to fix the problem or else explain and demonstrate that there is no problem. Denial is not a solution.

Firstly, I am not convinced that you have demonstrated that there is actually a problem with aileron trim to the extent that anything needs to be fixed by TF. In fact, we have been informed that it is an historical characteristic for the aircraft concerned. Nor do I see hoards of frustrated PC pilots posting on the forum or complaining on TeamSpeak that this is an important issue adversely effecting their ability to perform in the Spitfire. In real life I believe that aircraft on squadron's tended to differ somewhat in flying characteristics anyway and not all aircraft handled exactly the same. However, in CloD we are lucky to be given a brand new aircraft as perfect as TF can make it each time we select to fly a new aircraft, so I see no reason to complain. Moreover, I stand to be corrected on this, but I am not aware of any magic trim power settings being given in pilot notes and have not read of any magic trim power setting advice being given to pilots in WW2. I therefore cannot help but conclude that in the bigger picture it was just not an issue that warranted much fuss in real life. I would be very surprised if standard magic trim power settings existed in real life to be issue to pilots, as I don't believe they existed to an exact setting every time, especially once an aircraft was in operational use. However, it makes sense to me that TF will have had to settle on some numbers for the simulation via computer technology. But, to fly this simulation with a degree if historical accuracy, I see no reason why we need to be informed of the power settings you have requested. If the real life pilots did not have this magic trim power setting information without testing and finding it out for themselves for each aircraft they flew on each sortie, then why should we have it? I would expect trim settings to change with altitude anyway, but again, I stand to be corrected on that. In short, pilot the plane with all its character and quirks and get on with the job. Keep calm and carry on, LOL.

Secondly, my interest in this thread was only peaked when I read the suggestion that non-historic aircraft primary control surfaces could be miraculously brought into being for use with CloD aircraft. My point regarding this issue is very simple. I do not see why it should be accepted practice that aircraft that historically did not have a particular primary control surface effect, lets say rudder or aileron trim for example, can be suddenly given a flight model ability that it did not have in real life and was not designed to have by the simulation developers, by the magic wand of PC joystick technology. I find this disappointing and wish that it was possible for PC flight sim developers to stop it. For a PC pilot to magic up a primary control surface effect that did not exist and was designed not to exist, kind of defeats the object of historical aircraft combat simulation in my mind. But hey, that's just me, perhaps I am on my own in this thinking and black is really white and white is really black, or some such confusing thing that is beyond my comprehension. :salute:

Happy landings,

Talisman

DerDa
Sep-12-2016, 12:59
Yep... trim is there to take the physical pressure off the pilot. Its not "needed"... but it makes sence in some applications.

I supposed it's the aviation equivelent of cruise control in a car... kinda


In any case...

I'm a sucker for keeping my hands and feet on the controls.

Stops the plane going some place I don't want.

;)

If you do not use rudder trim your plane will be considerably slower. So you need it to stay in formation.
I always wondered why my mates just sped away and I could not keep up with them without overheating.
Naturally you will not trim during a dogfight, but going these 5 mph faster into the dogfight might save your a ... pixels down below.

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-12-2016, 13:41
If you do not use rudder trim your plane will be considerably slower. So you need it to stay in formation.
I always wondered why my mates just sped away and I could not keep up with them without overheating.
Naturally you will not trim during a dogfight, but going these 5 mph faster into the dogfight might save your a ... pixels down below.

Hmm...

Seems a bit weird that setting the rudder at a cetain angle to be deemed "normal" from that point until that normal is changed, would be any different in terms of drag than just using your feet in the first place...

Same angle of rudder simply must exhibit the same drag



I will give it a whirl though. I need all the help I can get !! We all do !!

Cheers DerDa !

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-12-2016, 13:48
Trim is essential! The old flight instructor adage, "Trim, Trim, Trim... Trim is your friend", is a mainstay of aircraft control. The pejorative term for a pilot who does not trim is "Ham-Hands"!

Aileron trim is the soft-exception to the rule, since it does not exist in a lot of airplane types, new and old, and has no timely place in active air-to-air combat.

Don't be "Ham-Handed"... TRIM! :joystick:


Haha !.. im all about the ham !!


I wasn't meaning to say that trim isnt an important feature of an aircraft

I've flown a helicopter in real life. (only once mind so don't get the idea I'n in any way good at it !!!) and yes... It's ESSENTIAL for that.

but I wasn't constantly changing direction then... !



i was just saying when you are all over the sky (intentionally mind !!!) trim isnt really very high up the essentials list

as fars as aileron trim goes.. which was the original ask...

in the spit?... i dont see why you would want it in a sim.

it flys without. which is correct.


Im gonna trim now though (at least for a week or two)... i dont wanna be called ham-hands in the play ground...

:D

Baffin
Sep-12-2016, 14:57
Highseas:

Certainly not! I'm the king of "Ham-Handedness" and that's when I'm trim, trim trimming! I only challenged your assertion that it was "not needed" so that new players reading this did not get the wrong idea. I agree with you that aileron trim is way down my (and apparently your) list of important stuff. As a rotorhead, you know more about trim than most of us, so no insult intended. ... "Smoked Shoulder Hands" Baffin.

Talisman:

It's important to the OP and lots of others over the years. Everyone seems to be misreading my earlier suggestion. In no way do I want any in-flight control added that's not historical. I just hate to hear of players quitting cliffs because the RAF fighters don't trim in roll at any speed. All I want is the speed and settings for some trimmed cruise flight so I can answer these guys who just can't get things "Squared Away". If it doesn't trim at any speed, the flight model needs a tweak. Even my Cessna 172 was "Hands off" most of the time during enroute cruise.

Regarding differences between different airplanes out on the line, this obviously occurs. But when I return to base with a "Bent" airplane requiring unusual control input, I sure as heck better write it up for the crew chief to fix so the next poor bloke doesn't have the same problem. They didn't just write "Needs 3 degrees left rudder" in grease pencil on the side window. These planes were maintained to fly within carefully engineered limits and the mechanics worked hard to keep them that way.

Der Da:

"If you do not use rudder trim your plane will be considerably slower. So you need it to stay in formation."

I hope this is a language problem. Your English is ten times better than my German but the idea of using rudder trim in a single engine plane to stay in formation is a peculiar concept. Like Highseas suggested, any application of rudder trim induces drag and reduces speed. Something's wrong with what you've posted... uncoordinated flight is crooked. No crooks allowed in CLoD! :hpyflying:

ATAG_Dave
Sep-12-2016, 18:26
Der Da:

"If you do not use rudder trim your plane will be considerably slower. So you need it to stay in formation."

I hope this is a language problem. Your English is ten times better than my German but the idea of using rudder trim in a single engine plane to stay in formation is a peculiar concept. Like Highseas suggested, any application of rudder trim induces drag and reduces speed. Something's wrong with what you've posted... uncoordinated flight is crooked. No crooks allowed in CLoD! :hpyflying:

Baffin I understood Der Da to mean that if you fail to trim correctly you will be side slipping, and so slower than your compatriots (assuming they are trimmed properly)...and so they fly away from you :salute:

Baffin
Sep-12-2016, 19:05
Baffin I understood Der Da to mean that if you fail to trim correctly you will be side slipping, and so slower than your compatriots (assuming they are trimmed properly)...and so they fly away from you :salute:

Thanks for the explain! I see what you mean now... There is never an argument against trimming properly.

Keep on trimming,,, Apologies, Der Da! :joystick:

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-12-2016, 19:54
Baffin I understood Der Da to mean that if you fail to trim correctly you will be side slipping, and so slower than your compatriots (assuming they are trimmed properly)...and so they fly away from you :salute:


but surely side slip only really happens if you are not actually using the rudder.

So either use your feet to give say 5% rudder (direction whatever) constanlty.. or trim it out 5% (direction whatever) and put your feet up...


same result.


(happy to be corrected!!)

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-12-2016, 20:03
Highseas:

As a rotorhead, you know more about trim than most of us, so no insult intended. ... "Smoked Shoulder Hands" Baffin.





ha ! .. I only did that once... the rotary !

AMAZING 5.5 hours. !!!!!!


and I certainly don't take any comment such as yours as an insult. !

I've never flown fixed wing in real life either soooo....


but yeah... back to the thread...

rudder takes out side slip.. stops your passengers puking down your neck...

but... trim for any level.. or hold the controls at that same level....


same thing aerodynamicaly.




havent figured out how to trim the guns yet. :D

DerDa
Sep-13-2016, 02:29
Baffin I understood Der Da to mean that if you fail to trim correctly you will be side slipping, and so slower than your compatriots (assuming they are trimmed properly)...and so they fly away from you :salute:

At last someone who really understands me.

ATAG_Dave
Sep-13-2016, 03:42
but surely side slip only really happens if you are not actually using the rudder.

So either use your feet to give say 5% rudder (direction whatever) constanlty.. or trim it out 5% (direction whatever) and put your feet up...


same result.


(happy to be corrected!!)

yes same result :thumbsup:

Baffin
Sep-13-2016, 09:44
Slip is happening whenever the ball (RAF Needle) is not centered. Sometimes you want it... for cruising, you don't. Coordinated flight is the elusive goal for all pilots. Planes are not meant to fly sideways! [Final Answer]

Thanks to all for hearing my opinions in this thread, but I think I'm, wearing out my welcome. I plan to sign off now to avoid ruffling any feathers, so good day to you all! :grandpa

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-13-2016, 09:48
I think I'm, wearing out my welcome.

Not at all !

Don't think that Baffin ! Its certainly not the case for me at any rate...

I however will also now "slip" away... :salute:

Baffin
Sep-13-2016, 10:25
Not at all !

Don't think that Baffin ! Its certainly not the case for me at any rate...

I however will also now "slip" away... :salute:

Yeah... (Great play on words!) Sometimes when the horse is dead, it doesn't do to keep beating it. :cheers:

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-13-2016, 10:34
Yeah... (Great play on words!) Sometimes when the horse is dead, it doesn't do to keep beating it. :cheers:

Ha! Not at all -- I learn a lot from these discussions, including this one. :thumbsup:

Like others here, I've done a lot of offline testing in Spitfires (various Marks) and have been impressed with the speed gains to be had when the side slip needle is centred vs uncentred.

Nothing to do with this thread, but I wonder if we can get an icon depicting a happy-face guy beating a prostrate ie dead horse. However, it might be regarded a little inflammatory, or PETA might get on our case! LOL

:)

BOO
Sep-13-2016, 14:15
Trim.......?

ATAG_Highseas
Sep-13-2016, 17:06
Trim.......?


Short back and sides... and a little off the top.

Regulation Trim Man !!


Mostache? At your discretion, but do please check that you have a stiff enough upper lip...


Stupid hipster beard?... Thank god we are not in the bloody navy !!

I really can't abide a weak chin....


shudder

Scott_HH
Sep-20-2016, 15:04
My first interest is to fly a hurricane, however I should say I have A2A's Spitfire in FSX. Realism is a KO criterion and the graphics of CLOD are fantastic. Yes I did buy the original, but bugs and my slow PC stopped the fun.

I have a new PC and am giving it another go, real thanks to TF (I can hardly imagine how you have done it). There does seem to be a problem in the program with the rolling of British aeroplanes and a measure of denial.

The background to the story.

Elements of a society have taken to wage yet another (world) war. It invests everything in building up its armed forces and in particular with the weapon of the age - Aeroplanes. They are two years from bankrupcy having done this. The rest of the "free" world want peace in our time and their weapons are outdated. All to late a response is made. A single decker version of the Hart biplane, with retractable undercaridge and enclosed cockpit is thrown into production. This is fitted with a new engine from a private venture (PV100). Another more new streamlined aeroplane (version 1A) with complicated wings those production is painfully slow. A beauitiful plane, but a warbird? Up against them we have an aeroplane with fanatstic performance and much improved upon (version E), a true warbird, through combat complete with experienced crew.

So as a beginner I am expecting to be shot down with my less than 10 hours in Spits. I may be accompanied by people from all countries and walks of life. What I am hoping is that the fantastic handling of this aeroplane and a lot of luck is going to see me through my first sortie. There is little chivalry in sneaking up behind a beginner and killing him before he even sees the experienced pilot coming. This is clincial murder.

My first task is to trim the aircraft. Sorry but the Spitfire is a wonderfully balanced aircraft. So good you can read a map even. Since only the upper part of the column moves (cramped cockpit innovation) it has to be. Yes the Spit has no aileron trim, but it does not need it.

We do not have an enigma here. Yes that had 4 rotating wheels .., and was uncrackable (greetings to all the Poles flying). There is a program issue. It is that simple.

Greetings to any pilots about to save my skin: The disposed, the French (good supercharger to come), the Eagles, the commonwealth, the crazy. The odds were never good, but at least the crate flew straight.

I too would like to have a "real" stick, but my one also has a dam big spring in it centering it all the time. It could be that the doc stops me flying with shot up wrists.

MfG zu meine Gegner. Aber was soll dass? Können wir nicht zugeben, dass wir ein Problem haben? Ja hat es ein bischen gedauert aber wir machen das jetzt. Ihre wolle es nicht zu leicht haben oder?

1lokos
Sep-20-2016, 16:15
And talking about trim, a CloD plane has more trim than should: G.50. :D

Tonester
Nov-07-2016, 04:20
In a spit i can trim out in a climb and just about walk away t make a coffee!...in a hurricane, constant attention...just my 2c worth!

Baffin
Nov-07-2016, 10:15
In a spit i can trim out in a climb and just about walk away t make a coffee!...in a hurricane, constant attention...just my 2c worth!

Good for you! Now, Can you trim out your climb (or cruise) in coordinated flight? (Needle centered) If you can, please post the RPM, Boost pressure, airspeed and available trim settings. These control settings will answer all the complaints from those players having difficulty... :joystick:

7./JG26_SMOKEJUMPER
Nov-17-2016, 21:52
If you do not use rudder trim your plane will be considerably slower. So you need it to stay in formation.
I always wondered why my mates just sped away and I could not keep up with them without overheating.
Naturally you will not trim during a dogfight, but going these 5 mph faster into the dogfight might save your a ... pixels down below.



I trim all the time during a dogfight. I have my elevator trim set to an easy to get at switch and I constantly flick it in combat.

DerDa
Nov-18-2016, 02:58
Maybe I'm just too old for multitasking.
Usually trying not to panic in a dogfight needs all my attention ...

FightingSteel1
Nov-18-2016, 04:09
I trim all the time during a dogfight. I have my elevator trim set to an easy to get at switch and I constantly flick it in combat.

100% serious question about that...what does that do for you? I've never used trim outside of level flight, so I'm interested in the benefits of adjusting in a fight. Like is it for more speed, or gaining a turn advantage?

ATAG_Ezzie
Nov-18-2016, 04:22
I trim all the time as well. Helps maximise speed in the 110 ( I keep trimming it nose down as the speed increases and it makes a noticeable difference to top speed) and helps shoot straight at long range without requiring as much rudder input to centre the ball.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-18-2016, 13:27
100% serious question about that...what does that do for you? I've never used trim outside of level flight, so I'm interested in the benefits of adjusting in a fight. Like is it for more speed, or gaining a turn advantage?

Just before you take a shot, if possible, you should look at your rudder trim and see if it is centered. If it isn't add/step on rudder input to center it... inputting rudder trim usually takes too long, but with the rudder adjustment can be almost instantaneous... although you need to add it smoothly so the aircraft doesn't lose stability and go into a series of back and forth yaws and wobbles which will make the situation worse.

If your aircraft is not in trim when you shoot, then although your gunsight pipper may be on, the aircraft is not actually moving at the aiming point, it is moving sideways to it slightly.

ATAG_Colander
Nov-18-2016, 13:47
If your aircraft is not in trim when you shoot, then although your gunsight pipper may be on, the aircraft is not actually pointing at the aiming point, it is sideways to it slightly.

Just to add to this:
If your plane is flying moving to one side, your bullets will exit moving to the same side.
Is like throwing a stone from a moving car. If the car is moving at 100mph, no matter how fast you throw it out the side window, it will always fly with the sideways 100mph added to it.

ATAG_Highseas
Nov-18-2016, 14:48
Just to add to this:
If your plane is flying moving to one side, your bullets will exit moving to the same side.
Is like throwing a stone from a moving car. If the car is moving at 100mph, no matter how fast you throw it out the side window, it will always fly with the sideways 100mph added to it.

Great point. Well stated.

Inertia plays havoc with gunnery.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-18-2016, 15:04
This is a clearer explanation. :thumbsup:

Edited my post to add word.


Just to add to this:
If your plane is flying moving to one side, your bullets will exit moving to the same side.
Is like throwing a stone from a moving car. If the car is moving at 100mph, no matter how fast you throw it out the side window, it will always fly with the sideways 100mph added to it.

Vlerkies
Nov-18-2016, 15:59
no lazzooor beeemmms , how disappoint

Perfesser
Dec-08-2016, 12:05
Here you go. "a mod that allows aileron trim" As a bonus it also works in German and Italian planes.
Started off as a joke but it works pretty well.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz206/Indyyeti/hurritrimfinal_zpsuapr6h8k.jpg (http://s828.photobucket.com/user/Indyyeti/media/hurritrimfinal_zpsuapr6h8k.jpg.html)

1lokos
Dec-08-2016, 12:10
But CH stick has this mechanical trim on X,Y axis - which displaces potentiometer center position and result in "cheat" trim. :D

Perfesser
Dec-08-2016, 13:17
Mechanical trim too sensitive for the very small input needed on the Hurri

ATAG_Highseas
Dec-08-2016, 13:30
May I recommend using the joystick. It's a top secret pilot trick... So... Hush hush eh?

:))

1lokos
Dec-09-2016, 20:11
For ones searching for "cheat" trim in any plane:

"Universal trim" code:



//Trims [ HAT 1 and HAT 2]
//Works on every simulator

//X

MapKey(&Joystick, H1L, REXEC(0, 100, "TrimDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, -5);"));
MapKey(&Joystick, H1R, REXEC(0, 100, "TrimDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, 5);"));

//Y

MapKey(&Joystick, H1U, REXEC(1, 100, "TrimDXAxis(DX_Y_AXIS, -5);"));
MapKey(&Joystick, H1D, REXEC(1, 100, "TrimDXAxis(DX_Y_AXIS, 5);"));

//Z (Rudder)

MapKey(&Joystick, H2L, REXEC(0, 100, "TrimDXAxis(DX_ZROT_AXIS, -5);"));
MapKey(&Joystick, H2R, REXEC(0, 100, "TrimDXAxis(DX_ZROT_AXIS, 5);"));


MapKeyIO(&Joystick, S1,
EXEC("TrimDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, CURRENT);TrimDXAxis(DX_Y_AXIS, CURRENT); TrimDXAxis(DX_ZROT_AXIS, CURRENT);"),// Locks X- Y- Z to current position
EXEC("TrimDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, SET(0));TrimDXAxis(DX_Y_AXIS
, SET(0));TrimDXAxis(DX_ZROT_AXIS, SET(0));")); // Cancel All trims ( X- Y - Z )

Inconvenient: Requires a Thrustmaster Warthog or T.16000M. :)

I just want the correct trim that belongs to the plane. (CloD) G-50 I a looking at your fake trims. :-P

GingerWhinger
Dec-29-2016, 12:35
Hi guys I have read through this because I have the same issue. Hands off the plane (Spit and Hurri) rolls strongly to the right.

This has been programed in clearly in the interests of 'realism'.

Yes the planes did not have trim tabs but that is not the point. The answer in reality was quite crude and involved a hammer.

After flight testing the pilot would get the trailing edge of the aileron literally hammered slightly up or down depending on what was needed. Each plane was different because of the hand built nature of the units.

Naturally the plane would roll against the airscrew but the aileron was adjusted on the ground to counter it and provide straight hands off level flight in the cruise. This was done during the first flight test and there is no way any plane would be allowed to go into combat without the ailerons being balanced. The last thing a fighter pilots needs is to have to provide constant heavy pressure to one side of the control column the whole flight let alone in battle.

What we should have is a plane that flies reasonably level in normal flight but has increased torque effects as rpm rises. What we actually have would never have occurred in a battle ready plane.

Tibsun
Dec-29-2016, 16:57
Naturally the plane would roll against the airscrew but the aileron was adjusted on the ground to counter it and provide straight hands off level flight in the cruise. This was done during the first flight test and there is no way any plane would be allowed to go into combat without the ailerons being balanced. The last thing a fighter pilots needs is to have to provide constant heavy pressure to one side of the control column the whole flight let alone in battle.

What we should have is a plane that flies reasonably level in normal flight but has increased torque effects as rpm rises.


It is actually doing what you say it should.
If you take off, it rolls to the left. If you fly faster than cruise speed, it rolls right.

The issue is, you're not flying at cruise speed and also not at normal flight.
100% throttle and high speed level flight is not cruising.

Fly at climbing speeds, and you will see that this is also the combat speed, where you are able to turn and roll the best withoug having you to counter any rolling! (If you didn't mess up the rudder)

Depending on your rpm and throttle, the hands free speed rises, the higher it is. (It rolls to left when you're slower then the optimum speed for current throttle/rpm, means the torque is stronger and the plane is rolling more left)


Solution for you is, climb more or fly slower until you do not roll anymore. This is the best climb, climbing takes long and its necessary to be higher then the enemy anyway, and you're able to turn the best with these elevator trim setting.
So actually this is the best setting to fight and climb.

GingerWhinger
Jan-01-2017, 09:06
No sorry I can't agree. Clearly if this was the case we wouldn't have a whole topic on it here and many other forums.
The plane violently rolls to the right at any speed which is totally unrealistic.
Even if you fly the accu sim Spit in FSX you won't get this. And no pilot flying the real Spits will ever say this is what happens.
Whether you believe it or not doesn't bother me. I am just stating historical fact that the ailerons were shaped post manufacture in the flight test before delivery to the squadron to counter the torque and you didn't get what you encounter with this model. Individual pilots would then alter them to suit their particular flying style and preference. You would never have to fly with a constant hard pressure to the left in normal flight.

1lokos
Jan-02-2017, 09:20
People begging for "Frankenstein" trims should see this video explanation about the "propeller gyro precession": :thumbsup:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24054&p=251029#post251029

♣_Spiritus_♣
Jan-02-2017, 10:25
The plane violently rolls to the right at any speed which is totally unrealistic.

We are always looking to improve everything and do read all the comments and suggestions and welcome them, but I feel like the above statement is a little dramatic.

If your plane is truly rolling to the right in a violent manner, than we need to dig into more issues on your end on why this is happening. If so, can you post a video of this happening so we can take a look?

Thanks

Kendy for the State
Jan-03-2017, 11:22
I am far from being a great pilot, but I have to say the only time my Spitfire rolls "violently to the right" Is after a 109 has graciously removed my starboard wing with the aid of its canon.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

ATAG_Colander
Jan-03-2017, 11:36
Clearly if this was the case we wouldn't have a whole topic on it here and many other forums.
True! No humans have ever been been on the moon either. There are many threads in many forums to prove it :D

This thread is more about asking the possibility to adjust the trim before spawning to one's preferred speed.


The plane violently rolls to the right at any speed
As stated above, we would like to see a video of this. If the word "violently" applies to what you are experiencing, then it seems like there must be something else going on as the rest of us get just a "gentle" roll.

Hurricane
Mar-11-2017, 06:18
It is actually doing what you say it should.
If you take off, it rolls to the left. If you fly faster than cruise speed, it rolls right.


I understand about propeller torque and the pull to the left.

But i didn't know about the tendency to pull right , at anything higher than cruising speed.

Thanks for that Tibsun, some more excellent info to remember. :thumbsup:

Best regards, :salute:
Mike.

Baffin
Mar-11-2017, 09:36
I understand about propeller torque and the pull to the left.

But i didn't know about the tendency to pull right , at anything higher than cruising speed.

Thanks for that Tibsun, some more excellent info to remember. :thumbsup:

Best regards, :salute:
Mike.

Everything you ever wanted (or didn't want) to know about propellers... [Pages 5-28 through 5-32]

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/07_phak_ch5.pdf

Hurricane
Mar-11-2017, 11:01
Everything you ever wanted (or didn't want) to know about propellers... [Pages 5-28 through 5-32]

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/07_phak_ch5.pdf

You really know how to spoil a girl, Baffin. :)

Thanks very much for the link. :thumbsup:

All the best, :salute:
Mike.

w0odi
Apr-08-2017, 00:21
I am a new guy here and so far I am having the same problem with the planes rolling right.... Makes it not any fun at all to try to fly level... I mean if it was just a slight bit of roll I can understand. but I can take my hand off the stick and with in 5 seconds it will be upside down and heading for the ground....
I really want to fly this sim but it is frustrating.... spit is worse than the 109.... just curious if anyone has found out why this is happening.. I can fly DCS BOS and ROF without any issues... seems it is just COD... I like COD best but not getting much enjoyment out of it so far... :(

w0odi

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Apr-08-2017, 00:53
All aircraft have to be trimmed to stay in level flight.

You need to set trim buttons, and you need to trim the aircraft using the ball centering on the 109, or the sideslip needle on the Spit/Hurri.

There is no Aileron trim on any of the fighters, you can only adjust Rudder trim... which means that only at certain speeds and rpms, will the aircraft be in trim.

This is the way they were historically, there were no prop driven aircraft which flew in perfect trim without adjustment.


I am a new guy here and so far I am having the same problem with the planes rolling right.... Makes it not any fun at all to try to fly level... I mean if it was just a slight bit of roll I can understand. but I can take my hand off the stick and with in 5 seconds it will be upside down and heading for the ground....
I really want to fly this sim but it is frustrating.... spit is worse than the 109.... just curious if anyone has found out why this is happening.. I can fly DCS BOS and ROF without any issues... seems it is just COD... I like COD best but not getting much enjoyment out of it so far... :(

w0odi

ATAG_Highseas
Apr-08-2017, 04:14
Not trying to be a smart arse.

But surely asking for aileron trim in a spitfire is like asking for your classic car to be converted from a manual gear box to an automatic. Just so you don't have to commit so much input while driving. Or in this case flying.

You may as well ask for a chauffeur.

And you can get that effect by watching u tube videos.

It really doesn't make any sense to me.

Anyway.

Can anyone write a mod that gives me a Butler? Oh and a pretty French maid. ?

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Apr-08-2017, 05:54
Not trying to be a smart arse.

But surely asking for aileron trim in a spitfire is like asking for your classic car to be converted from a manual gear box to an automatic. Just so you don't have to commit so much input while driving. Or in this case flying.

You may as well ask for a chauffeur.

And you can get that effect by watching u tube videos.

It really doesn't make any sense to me.

Anyway.

Can anyone write a mod that gives me a Butler? Oh and a pretty French maid. ?

Squadrons based in France during the Phoney War in 1940 often stayed in French Chateaus where there were lots of French maids.

And I believe several titled English lords donated the use of their estates, including butlers for some RAF Squadrons during the BoB... ;)

DerDa
Apr-08-2017, 08:14
Hrmph ... maybe I will have to change to the blue side after all.
Or that's just one more reason for a Battle of France scenario!

http://www.tipsytotes.com/assets/images/1950s%20%20Maid.jpg

Oh please, please, please ...


Aileron trim? Who need ailerons???

Maru
Apr-08-2017, 08:25
Derda lets do it, I just fall in love with that geerrl.

1lokos
Apr-08-2017, 10:57
You need to set trim buttons, and you need to trim the aircraft using the ball centering on the 109, or the sideslip needle on the Spit/Hurri.

There is no Aileron trim on any of the fighters, you can only adjust Rudder trim... which means that only at certain speeds and rpms, will the aircraft be in trim.

Before someone misread and start complain that Bf 109 "rudder trim" don't work.

... you can only adjust Rudder trim... in Spitfire, Hurricane, G.50 (but should not be able to do in this plane) not in Bf 109, their rudder trim is fixed for cruise speed. :)

ATAG_Septic
Apr-08-2017, 11:24
Trim being applied by the Erks.

...He added: "John has got the engineers to make a few adjustments to trim NH341's ailerons which will improve her stability in flight. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-39529403

I don't know much about these things but suspect this would be to adjust the trim for stable flight at a particular preferred (probably cruise) speed?

Septic.

P.S. I (and I suspect many) find it possible to stooge around in a Spit or Hurri using just rudder and elevator trims. In fact I can trim straight and level for long enough to allow a frantic-quick smoke, find the figgy duffs and mash a cuppa in an emergency!

ATAG_Freya
Apr-09-2017, 22:43
Here is how trim a spit aileron, start watching at about 40:40 and watch for a couple minutes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va-K-x61fBI

:)