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Tvrdi
Sep-14-2012, 09:23
From Luthier:

Hello everyone,

It’s been too long since I’ve posted on here. Black Six has been doing such a good job managing the forums and interacting with the community that it really allowed me to sit back and just focus on managing the product.
I apologize if my absence has upset some of you. I know the community adores wild rumors, but we’re all still here, and we’re working very hard on making the Il-2 series better.
However as you might have guessed, the brunt of the team’s efforts has gradually shifted to the sequels. I know many of you won’t be happy, and neither are we. Cliffs of Dover is still not the product we are happy with or proud of. Unfortunately, as all businesses we have goals, budgets, profits, losses, expenses, and wages. We have milestones to meet with our future products, and we just cannot miss those.
So for the past two weeks the team has been working hard on delivering a stable, working milestone for the sequel.
The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch. The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it.
Are we happy with that? No. But we simply cannot continue to support and grow Cliffs of Dover while also trying to ensure our sequels are released on time and are sufficiently polished. I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation. Most of you have probably guessed that Cliffs of Dover was not exactly the most profitable project in the world, and for at least the past year supporting it did nothing for the bottom line but put it deeper into the red.
Having said all that, Alexander sent me a short list of the most commonly asked questions. So here are the answers.
1) When do you expect to have full-featured anti-aliasing?
We still didn’t get to that task as our graphic programmers still have a pile of even higher priority issues to cover. So, not in the next patch.
2) Will the next patch be fully NVidia certified, and will it have Crossfire support?
NVidia – definitely. CF – still TBD.
3) Will there be a complete readme?
Yes!
4) What’s the status of the Su-26 and the SDKs?
We will most likely include the Su-26 in the final patch for free. The SDKs, we really want to release at least the map-making SDK to the public “as is”, which is why they’re not covered by the next patch v. sequels discussion. However simply packing up the source code into a package that can be released to the public is a somewhat lengthy task that can only be done by our lead programmer. Once he’s done putting out the fires, and once the patch is out the door, we’ll find a way to squeeze that into his schedule.
With that, I'm out. I'll be back at the end of the day to answer more of your questions.

So one more patch and thats it. If you want CLOD to be updated in the future you must buy Battle For Moscow. No AA, no fixed ghost trees in the last update....Well guys...I will buy the sequel only and only if they fix all this and only when ppl who will be buying, confirm the new game is optimized and with working AA, without poor netcode, ghost trees, pop up buildings, etc....IMHO, This is somehow a slap in the face from Luthier...hes been a sarcastic, too.....

original topic:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=34374

ATAG_Knuckles
Sep-14-2012, 09:25
No real news there I guess: Hummmm:grrr:

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-14-2012, 09:45
I will be buying the sequel (whatever it will be) in order to apply any further improvements to Cliffs of Dover. Personally I don't have much interest in the Moscow/Stalingrad/wherever theatre, but more power for those who do. Hopefully the sequel's success will lead to CoD's eventual success, especially if third parties get access to upgrade & improve. No guarantees, obviously. As I posted in 1C: Caveat emptor.

Tvrdi
Sep-14-2012, 10:06
Hopefully the sequel's success will lead to CoD's eventual success,


:)

Dutch
Sep-14-2012, 11:25
Personally I don't have much interest in the Moscow/Stalingrad/wherever theatre, but more power for those who do.

I suppose this depends on how each of us arrived at 'Cliffs'. I spent a good few years enjoying IL2, Forgotten Battles, 1946 plus mods, but all along wished for an official 1C Battle of Britain scenario. I was pretty euphoric back in 2006 when the bonus DVD with '46 had a preview of 'Storm of War- The Battle of Britain' on it.

Now we've got it, and I've been on the old game a few times, but in comparison the old game has lost its appeal for me, mods or no mods.

Going back to a La5 or LaGG 3 or even a Sturmovik, I'm not sure now. I'll buy it for sure, but I have a feeling I'll much prefer defending 'Hellfire Corner' to Moscow or Stalingrad or whatever, for some years to come.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/hellfire-corner-aka-hell-fire-corner

ChiefRedCloud
Sep-14-2012, 11:43
I share the feelings expressed here so far .... I most likely will buy this 'Sequal' but only "IF" it supports or helps CloD. I've flown IL2 '46 and I too feel as if a lot is missing when I go back to it. Still fun but not the same (Doh!). I see where Luthier is comming from but am still disapointed. And unless his words are 'JUST' words, he sounds a bit dismayed also. I bought CloD after a lot of research and reading (the forums). I knew of the short commings and I do not regret buying it (CloD). We can but hope for the best but eventually it will have to be the 'Community' that reserects CloD (like IL2) and make it into something that we can all look to. Till then .... Let's Fly ...:flying:

Doc
Sep-14-2012, 12:55
I'm ready for the release now. Bring on the I-16 and a box of tissue to wipe the tears away.

Jugdriver
Sep-14-2012, 14:00
I do think there is a bit of a silver lining in the announcement, Luthier made it clear that the sequel will install over COD, therefore we are looking at a 1946 style upgrade/update map, not a switch to an MMO or non-linked games.

That being said I think we will only see a comprehensive BOB game when third party groups are allowed to update it, which is a shame.

I hope that Luthier and 1C realized how important this last official patch is, if it does not address some of the major FM/DM issues there is going to be problems with the sequel and how it is perceived before it even is launched. They also need to come up with something clever for before the launch of the sequel, like an open beta for the present owners of COD or a discount for owners of COD, something that will garner momentum before the official release (adding a few specific BOB features would not hurt either but it is clear that probably will not happen). There are thousands of customers (old Il2 pilots) waiting in the wings, and even though I think they are making a mistake by not buying there really needs to be some effort from Luthier and 1C to repair the damage done to their reputation. If there is a repeat of COD (which is highly unlikely IMO) then they are finished; their next effort must be a COMPLETELY polished if they want the sales volume they are hoping for.

JD
AKA_MattE

Dutch
Sep-14-2012, 15:14
Hmm...all they need to do is have a bonus flyable Wellington or Beaufighter included in 'the sequel', and even the people who aren't interested in the Eastern front would prob buy it.

I know Knuckles would. :D

I'd buy it anyway, but with a Wellie, I definately would. In fact that's such a great marketing ploy, I think I'll suggest it. :P

ATAG_Colander
Sep-14-2012, 15:48
Which is a very good business reason for not releasing a plane SDK :D

Tvrdi
Sep-14-2012, 15:55
Then there is a feeling they are "blackmailing" us..if you want to see further updates (and improvements) for CLOD you will have to buy the sequel.....ehh

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-14-2012, 17:00
Heh, the term used where I'm from is called "shakedown".

Basically it's when the customer has paid for goods and services that either haven't been delivered, or are broken/defective......and must pay more if he wants this bad situation fixed. It sounds like Ilya and his team have put themselves in a bad position. They've failed to fix the product sold to the specs promised, and are forced by their backers to shakedown their customers (us) to raise more money by producing and selling a sequel to -- hopefully -- fix CoD through backwards retrofitting.

The only other realistic alternative was cutting their losses and abandonning CoD altogether, which would suck for us. It would not be realistic to expect selected members of the BoM team to work additional hours for free to continue work on CoD. Morally it would be the right thing to do, perhaps, but that ain't gonna happen. Nor would I have any expectation of that.

TBH, I personally would have paid considerably more than 60 bucks back in March, 2011 for a fully-developed Cliffs of Dover. By "fully" I mean just that. This is a niche product which is expensive to produce in terms of man hours alone -- the research, artwork, programming, etc etc. I have almost 1000 hours flying this thing (according to Steam stats). The quality of my discretionary time is valuable to me. When I consider what I pay for other software (Adobe's Premium Production Suite, Lightworks, etc)......60 lousy bucks for a full-on WW2 air combat simulation is peanuts! Especially for me, personally, in which the study of the Battle of Britain has been and remains a huge passion spanning over fifty years. I won't say here what I would've been willing to spend, because some folks here would understandably freak. I ain't a rich man, but I've spent serious money on hobbies and stuff that I've not spent a fraction of the time I have with CoD.

It's a shame things were not done right right from the start. It's also a shame that CoD is still broken in so many ways, still. Hopefully their upcoming Release Candidate beta will fix some of the key failings of this sim. :D

III./ZG76_Saipan
Sep-14-2012, 17:02
so basically i bought an unfinished game that will never be finished, ill be forced into buying another game to get a patch? oh my. how do we know that moscow will be any better at release?

Jugdriver
Sep-14-2012, 18:02
TBH, I personally would have paid considerably more than 60 bucks back in March, 2011 for a fully-developed Cliffs of Dover. By "fully" I mean just that. This is a niche product which is expensive to produce in terms of man hours alone -- the research, artwork, programming, etc etc.

It is an interesting thought and one that I feel will play an every expanding role in how game developers try and make PC games profitable again. The whole MMO thing was obviously one idea, but after EA made Star Wars free to play, I bet 1C figured out quickly that was not the way to go. E Sim Steel Beasts Pro PE has fluctuated between $85 and $125 (not including expansions) and is worth every penny of the $125 I paid for it, like you Snapper I would have paid considerably more for a polished COD with all the bells and whistles and then paid for expansions as they came along.

One thing to keep in mind, if COD/BOM does fail it could be a long time (or never) before another WW II combat simulation on the scale of IL2 1946 comes around. I for one am willing to risk 60 bucks on BOM to try and not have this happen.

JD
AKA_MattE

Dutch
Sep-14-2012, 19:00
I really don't like all this talk of money. DCS A-10 was as expensive as cliffs of Dover on release. In fact I think it was more expensive. For one aircraft.

I've spent Ј20 on just a Lancaster for FSX in the past. My God, how boring is that for Ј20? It doesn't look as good as the planes in Cliffs, and the engine management is 'twiddle this if you want to, but you don't really need to'. You can't drop bombs.

Who cares what it costs? If you want it, you buy it. If you don't you don't. If you buy it and it wasn't what you expected, by all means moan about it. But is the problem in the subject or the object (you or the game?).

Talking of value per $/Ј spent is meaningless. Everyone has different expectations as regards 'value for money'.

I dread to think what I've spent on FSX over the years, and I never start it up anymore. It's old hat. Past history. But I chose to buy all the stuff for it. No-one forced me.

Rise of Flight on the other hand has also cost me a fair bit. A lot more than Cliffs. I like it, but I don't love it. Cliffs of Dover is the classic 'love/hate' relationship. It drives me crackers, but I cannot leave it alone.

Perhaps I need counselling...................:goofy

Then again, perhaps it's just a game, after all. :PP

ATAG_Colander
Sep-14-2012, 19:07
Yep!
I can't think of other $50 that gave me so many hours/days/months of fun and distraction.
Try getting drunk and after more than $50 all you'll have is a hangover that won't even last a week :D

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-14-2012, 19:22
I'm afraid you both misread my post....:(

ATAG_Colander
Sep-14-2012, 19:30
I'm afraid you both misread my post....:(

I said "Yep" as in "I agree" :D

Dutch
Sep-14-2012, 19:43
I'm afraid you both misread my post....:(

No, no, no, Snapper mate. :D

My post wasn't directed at you specifically. Or Tvrdi or Jugdriver. Just this whole objection to buying the sequel in order to get improvements to Cliffs of Dover, and not just in this thread. Generally.

The whole IL2 series was the same from the word go. If you've got an old xp pc lying around, see if you can get hold of a copy of the original IL2 Sturmovik and a copy of Forgotten Battles. Then compare the original 'Bomber' offline campaign to the same campaign included in Forgotten Battles. There are graphical improvements, gameplay improvements and yes FM improvements in the same campaign in the same aircraft.

Continual development. That's how they've done it before, that's how they're doing it now.

But that doesn't mean I don't want them to sort out our current overriding engine modelling problems, or sort out the bloody clouds. In this next patch. Or else............................. :grrr:

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-14-2012, 19:46
I said "Yep" as in "I agree" :D

My apologies!!!!!! :doh:

I mistakenly thought you and me ol' mate, Dutchey, were ganging up on me! :recon:

Similar to Dutch's experience, I've probably paid well over $200 for FSX/A2A Spitfire/A2A "Accufeel"/Weather environment/Canadian topography/etc. As good as it all is, I only fly it for the Spitfire-educational aspect. And it has NO GUNS! :stunned:

Assuming the CoD crowd are pretty hardcore flight sim fanatics, I wonder if Ilya could've lured in some top level programmers if he had charged more for CoD in the first place. I guess it's a balancing act: today's overhead (salaries) vs tomorrow's revenue. Still....perhaps he could've promised lucrative bonuses contingent on an excellent product selling well and guaranteeing future sequel demand.

ATAG_Torian
Sep-15-2012, 03:15
Considering the niche market that combat flight sims serve I personally wonder how they can stay in business. How many people worldwide do u suppose have bought CloD ? How many new sales do they make each week ?
I guess there is a reason that it's a Russian company. You probably wouldn't be able to pay western programmers a liveable wage on the sales figures for a sim like this. As well as that there just seems to be a different way of viewing priorities than we in the western European/Anglo/American logic driven mindset are used to.
I'm not a DCS regular (never flown the A10) but I did buy the P51 beta out of my interest in WW2 aircraft and even in beta it's a fun ride. If that company ever clues into the business they could build by bringing out a few more WW2 flyables then I think CloD would be dead in the water.
Having said all that I will buy the sequel as we all will. We all want it to work so bad it hurts.

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-15-2012, 04:08
Considering the niche market that combat flight sims serve I personally wonder how they can stay in business. How many people worldwide do u suppose have bought CloD ? How many new sales do they make each week ?
I guess there is a reason that it's a Russian company. You probably wouldn't be able to pay western programmers a liveable wage on the sales figures for a sim like this. As well as that there just seems to be a different way of viewing priorities than we in the western European/Anglo/American logic driven mindset are used to.
I'm not a DCS regular (never flown the A10) but I did buy the P51 beta out of my interest in WW2 aircraft and even in beta it's a fun ride. If that company ever clues into the business they could build by bringing out a few more WW2 flyables then I think CloD would be dead in the water.
Having said all that I will buy the sequel as we all will. We all want it to work so bad it hurts.

+1

I bought it, too, and was very impressed with the technical excellence of the beta. I realize it's still a WIP, with some systems still to be modelled, but I sure like what they've done so far. If they ever saw fit to add a 109G and/or a 190x, could you imagine?

However, like many of us here, the Battle of Britain is where it's at for me. Cliffs of Dover has the potential to be the Nirvana of all flight sims if everything worked as designed and supposed to. It will never happen, but if CoD brought the completeness of detail to their aircraft that DCS has for theirs....ZOWIE!!!

Peaveywolf
Sep-15-2012, 06:12
I personally think that Moscow will be fun also. New planes, maybe a mustang. Single player could be fun also. You never know. They may release dynamic campaigns finally, or let the modders dip their fingers in it. I also like the idea of playing in a scenario, not just dogfighting over land and sea for no cause at all.

Dutch
Sep-15-2012, 07:20
This off topic, but I just want to say that some people at the banana forum make my blood boil, my hackles rise and my hands ball up into fists.

Two different people have complained about 'having to buy the sequel to get working AA'.

I explained to both of them about the trick using FXAA and CSAA in Nvidia control panel which came up in that thread about the beta driver a while back.

One said 'doesn't work for me', one said 'I'll wait for the next patch'. Not even a 'thanks for your help anyway, but....'

These people don't want solutions, they just want to shoot down the Maddox Games division of 1C, thus rendering the world free of the only next-gen WWII combat flight sim.

This is an over used cliche, but these people should buy an x-box. :grrr:

P.S. There seems to be a marked improvement in FPS with the new Nvidia driver. Anyone else?

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-15-2012, 07:39
At present the biggest beef is that Ilya never showed up at day's end to answer questions. Personally, my whole world came to a grinding halt at his no-show. The best line I read was, "even a Taliban swimsuit calendar would be more revealing than Luthier's answers!" roflmao

After I downloaded the new 306 Nvidia driver I enabled FXAA and changed the AA settings in the Control Panel per your recommendations. The overall look seemed better to me re smoothness. Frame rates are definitely improved in that I running everything max'd out with my 680 and can now get smooth frame rates down low, the prior 304 driver had me reducing settings and unchecking grass, shadows, roads.

New 306 Nvidia driver: :thumbsup:

ATAG_Septic
Sep-15-2012, 07:42
This off topic, but I just want to say that some people at the banana forum make my blood boil, my hackles rise and my hands ball up into fists.

Two different people have complained about 'having to buy the sequel to get working AA'.

I explained to both of them about the trick using FXAA and CSAA in Nvidia control panel which came up in that thread about the beta driver a while back.

One said 'doesn't work for me', one said 'I'll wait for the next patch'. Not even a 'thanks for your help anyway, but....'

These people don't want solutions, they just want to shoot down the Maddox Games division of 1C, thus rendering the world free of the only next-gen WWII combat flight sim.

This is an over used cliche, but these people should buy an x-box. :grrr:

P.S. There seems to be a marked improvement in FPS with the new Nvidia driver. Anyone else?


I'm with you all the way Dutch, I won't express my views as they're the same as yours.

I haven't looked for any improvement with the new drivers but they seem fine.

Septic.

Dutch
Sep-15-2012, 08:30
The thing with the AA is this; The original IL2, right up to the present day with HSFX and UP3 also had no anti-aliasing in the game whatsoever. All AA settings had to come from your graphics card's control panel.

Similarly, if you wanted a widescreen view, you had to alter various parameters in conf.ini. If you wanted 3d trees in towns you had to enable 'trees=3' or some such.

Have these people just got lazy, or are they 'gamers' new to flight sims? If they're old IL2 fans, they have very short memories.

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-15-2012, 09:33
Well, I think the LEAST you can do is spend part of your Saturday afternoon posting screen shots of your Nvidia Control Panel over at 1C. I'm sure your efforts will be most appreciated by the gratefully entitled over there. :devilish:

ATAG_Knuckles
Sep-15-2012, 10:53
Hmm...all they need to do is have a bonus flyable Wellington or Beaufighter included in 'the sequel', and even the people who aren't interested in the Eastern front would prob buy it.

I know Knuckles would. :D

I'd buy it anyway, but with a Wellie, I definately would. In fact that's such a great marketing ploy, I think I'll suggest it. :P

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::doh:

ATAG_Knuckles
Sep-15-2012, 10:58
I read the Banana forums for entertainment only: kinda like my wife telling me about all the drama where she works (medical office full of women)

I certainly dont post anymore ! I did see your post there Dutch: it was ignored :grrr:

Oersted
Sep-15-2012, 12:08
Then there is a feeling they are "blackmailing" us..if you want to see further updates (and improvements) for CLOD you will have to buy the sequel.....ehh

Yeah, I know the feeling. I am constantly being blackmailed (as you so eloquently put it) by the pizza guy down at the corner. He expects me to pay every time I come and pick up a pizza... But I already paid once, two and a half years ago! The nerve...

[Just saying that I got a humongous amount of fun out of my investment in CoD, and I want to support it so that it will keep improving over the years. The old Il-2 was pretty sparse in the beginning and only became the huge sim it is now after about ten years of development]

I know that makes me a sycophantic Neville Chamberlain (as they call it at SimHateQ (http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3644735/Ty_Luthier_Ty_Luthier_Ty_BS.html#Post3644735)) but there you go, I'm a sucker for hi-fidelity flight sims!

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-15-2012, 12:19
Hmmm, maybe if the pizza you bought last year was continually giving you heartburn ...... but buy this NEW pizza and it will ease the heartburn! :)

Oersted
Sep-15-2012, 12:38
My main prob with CoD is that there is not enough time (5-month old daughter) to play it!

Dutch
Sep-15-2012, 12:54
I know that makes me a sycophantic Neville Chamberlain!

I feel really sorry for Neville Chamberlain. The most wrongly maligned leader of the British Nation in History.

'I do not propose to give an appreciation of Neville Chamberlain's life and character, but there were certain qualities always admired in these Islands which he possessed in an altogether exceptional degree. He had a physical and moral toughness of fibre which enabled him all through his varied career to endure misfortune and disappointment without being unduly discouraged or wearied. He had a precision of mind and an aptitude for business which raised him far above the ordinary levels of our generation. He had a firmness of spirit which was not often elated by success, seldom downcast by failure, and never swayed by panic. When, contrary to all his hopes, beliefs and exertions, the war came upon him, and when, as he himself said, all that he had worked for was shattered, there was no man more resolved to pursue the unsought quarrel to the death. The same qualities which made him one of the last to enter the war, made him one of the last who would quit it before the full victory of a righteous cause was won.' - Winston S. Churchill

We should always remember that it was Chamberlain who declared war, against the advice of the likes of Lord Halifax.

Sorry Chaps, got all serious there for some reason. :D

Tvrdi
Sep-15-2012, 16:38
Two different people have complained about 'having to buy the sequel to get working..

Then there are ppl like me who are big fans of this game and the only reason why Im "whining" is because the sim isnt even close what it should be...its not a finished game. For AA Im using injected dx files, I turned off trees, I bought new and fast 660Ti OC, OC my "old" i7 920 to 3.6 Ghz...bought more RAM....optimized my machine etc....Now the game runs better but I cant say Im happy and that Im fully enjoying....I mean, "serious/hardcore" sim should have collision model for trees, properly working netcode, optimized engine (so that other ppl can play at least on medium settings, not only ppl with super rigs), COOPs, campaigns, decent customer service/PR/updates (not existant right now if you dont count Black6 who barely speaks english and barely says anything important)..etc...
Its not even the money.... its the disappointment....in my case...Im not living in the rich part of the world but Im willing to spent more than a 100 bucks for this project (as I did for ROF).....the problem is that Im not sure if teh money was what 1C team was lacking...the problem is within the 1C team and their skills. First sign that something is wrong was Oleg leaving the office....then I knew something wrong is going on..

Nevertheless, I will wait and see how the sequel turns out and then I will decide to buy....or not. I bought CLOD because I had A CONFIDENCE in the team that they will bring us a "new and better IL2". Many did that because they saw 1C is working on the title. but now we know its not the same team. Regarding them bringing us "new and better il2". They did in some ways but in most - they failed....Sure, I like the cockpits, sounds (not the ones from release, for which Luthier said theyr new hah), FM, DM......but the product is not fully finished and optimized. I wouldnt mind if they told us it is such so and to ask for money....they sold it as finished.

Doc
Sep-15-2012, 21:13
We should always remember that it was Chamberlain who declared war, against the advice of the likes of Lord Halifax.



Personally as an American I would say that is like giving a pat on the back and an a boy to someone that got the answer correct to a multiple choice question with three choices and all three are the same answer. lol.

America will soon enough demand that the bust of Churchill (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100173136/churchill-bust-debacle-amateurish-obama-white-house-remains-firmly-in-denial/) is returned to its rightful place thank you very much.

Dutch
Sep-16-2012, 07:37
America will soon enough demand that the bust of Churchill (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100173136/churchill-bust-debacle-amateurish-obama-white-house-remains-firmly-in-denial/) is returned to its rightful place thank you very much.

That's good to know Doc. 'Indignant' is perhaps too mild a word for how I, and much of the British nation felt when it was removed.

We could debate the Chamberlain thing at length I'm sure, but maybe an update thread isn't the right place. :thumbsup:

So anyway, sequel eh?

Bring it on. Money ready and waiting. At least we'll get a change of scenery, and some snow (but maybe only on the ground, because 'the weather engine is still a bit dodgy!').

And as Doc rightly reminded me, we'll get an I-16. Ooooh, I do miss my Rata.

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-16-2012, 16:59
I'm actually happy about the update. Sounds like this is going to be like the original IL2 was. New version includes the old + plus content, maps, theaters, new planes, etc., and all engine enhancements just keep on going. I know this is going to be a long road ahead, but after playing WarThunder for about 20 seconds, I know this is the only real chance we have.

JG52_Krupi
Sep-16-2012, 18:41
The truth will out :salute:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=461583&postcount=19

Wonder what the reaction to this will be, now where did I put my asbestos suit to :doh:

Tvrdi
Sep-17-2012, 03:56
The truth will out :salute:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=461583&postcount=19

Wonder what the reaction to this will be, now where did I put my asbestos suit to :doh:

Can you pls copy paste this post here?...

JG52_Krupi
Sep-17-2012, 04:08
Originally Posted by JG52Krupi
The name Tree and the word objective should not be in the same sentence... he is anything but unbiased, he is arrogant, rude and actually heavily biased. The only other person like him on this board is ironically AOA both guys have huge over inflated egos and feelings of self importance that you normally would normally only see coming from a politician.

Take Luthiers questions thread, he among other raged about the lack of communication and he has a point, BUT an objective person would see this as a chance to improve the communication... what did he do ANYTHING BUT THAT he and the other naysayers filled the thread with useless, insulting "Questions" that B6 had to then flick through trying to find the decent questions.

I mean come on chaps do you not see the irony here... from this self appointed judge, juror and executioner.

I am sure I will turn on the TV tomorrow and see him throwing his slipper and then burning an effigy of Luthier.

So much anger over what a Ј30 to Ј50 piece of software while you sit in front of a PC that costs almost ten times that amount, the mind boggles it really does.

Grow up for crying out loud!

Tvrdi
Sep-17-2012, 04:22
Originally Posted by JG52Krupi
The name Tree and the word objective should not be in the same sentence... he is anything but unbiased, he is arrogant, rude and actually heavily biased. The only other person like him on this board is ironically AOA both guys have huge over inflated egos and feelings of self importance that you normally would normally only see coming from a politician.

Take Luthiers questions thread, he among other raged about the lack of communication and he has a point, BUT an objective person would see this as a chance to improve the communication... what did he do ANYTHING BUT THAT he and the other naysayers filled the thread with useless, insulting "Questions" that B6 had to then flick through trying to find the decent questions.

I mean come on chaps do you not see the irony here... from this self appointed judge, juror and executioner.

I am sure I will turn on the TV tomorrow and see him throwing his slipper and then burning an effigy of Luthier.

So much anger over what a Ј30 to Ј50 piece of software while you sit in front of a PC that costs almost ten times that amount, the mind boggles it really does.

Grow up for crying out loud!

Ahh I see....
Then again, like I said, Im disappointed with the Luthier deciding to release an alpha version of the game after advertising it as its finished product (pre-release videos etc). Nothing about the money. Thats not fair to the customers. With everything else I agree with you to some extent...And....yes, lacking a collision model for trees (in a sim which wants to be a top product) or proper optimisation of the game (effects, more planes in dogfight etc), and porked net code, almost 2 yrs after release is unnaceptable...Simple as that. And one fact...out of 8 guys which are IL2 fans and have rigs which can deal with the unoptimized CLiffs, who owns CLOD...Im the only one form that company, who still (occasionaly) play CLOD....that speaks enough. They lost so many ppl with their incompetence and catastrophic PR.....Look, thanks to ATAG we have one server (not the fast food crap we see on repka) which is crowded and that is only around 50 ppl at best on weekends....50 ppl in MP for an IL2 of second generation....Where are the masses of fans? Where are the happy customers? They are all offliners? Wait, cant be, offline is almost non existant.... Thats a devs failure right there...

But as Bliss said, CLOD is all we have (for ww2 air war, that is) and we need to eat all the shi*e along with the candies.....darn, I would like to see another geeky russian team trying to do the "hardcore" ww2 sim....

JG52_Krupi
Sep-17-2012, 05:33
If you still think that luthier wanted to release COD in the state it was in I think you are mistaken it's fairly obvious to me and a few others that they were forced to release it regardless of it state and that's one of the reasons Oleg left, he was not willing to see a half finish product released and Luthier realised it was a half made product or nothing.

Seriously now what would you prefer, a game missing its trimmings but signs of an impressive engine or nothing at all.

Tvrdi
Sep-17-2012, 07:20
If you still think that luthier wanted to release COD in the state it was in I think you are mistaken it's fairly obvious to me and a few others that they were forced to release it regardless of it state and that's one of the reasons Oleg left, he was not willing to see a half finish product released and Luthier realised it was a half made product or nothing.

Seriously now what would you prefer, a game missing its trimmings but signs of an impressive engine or nothing at all.

Seriously? What would be a professional approach? Maybe to release a game as demo beta (for free) and later to charge...Or maybe postpone the release to times when it will be ready. Or maybe release a demo beta and charge 8 bucks or whatever....Who said he was forced to release? Who forced him? UBI? 1C? Really? BTW, tell me...almost 2 yrs after initial release we still dont have collision models for trees, proper net code and working single player. How is that? Can you seriously say that the team is up to the task and professional in their work? Dont get me wrong, Im everythign but the CLOD haiter but when I see blue I dont say purple. Like I said, they are their own worst enemies. Not some forum "warriors" like Mr. Tree.
You dont need to defend them....we are all (at least here) in the same boat but I will not stick my head into the sand.

JG52_Krupi
Sep-17-2012, 08:16
Nor am I "sticking my head in the sand" but I don't see the point of constantly bashing someone, if I buy a game and it's rubbish or buggy I might look in the forums and inquire etc you know make my opinions heard but I don't moan for TWO YEARS especially when ppl who have similar specs play the game...

One of Trees squad mates actually plays il2 every night, he never mentions that... I was on TS with him and Furbs for quite a few months playing RO2 and it was fun but in the end he would not stfu in the forums and it really got on my nerves. Now he accuses me of trying to get him banned from the banana forum lol

Both Tree and Furbs are good pilots and I had a lot if fun on ATAG with them but I seriously think that even if COD was fixed in a patch tomorrow and I mean everything fixed I seriously believe that they have got themselves so wound up that they would still moan :|

Tvrdi
Sep-17-2012, 08:37
Both Tree and Furbs are good pilots and I had a lot if fun on ATAG with them but I seriously think that even if COD was fixed in a patch tomorrow and I mean everything fixed I seriously believe that they have got themselves so wound up that they would still moan :|

Thats another story :D

Whatever...we will got what we will got...and we have what we have..

JG52_Krupi
Sep-17-2012, 08:41
Thats another story :D

Whatever...we will got what we will got...and we have what we have..

Agreed :salute:

Oersted
Sep-17-2012, 18:54
Whatever...we will got what we will got...and we have what we have..

If there hadn't been this rabid pack piling on the hate we would have had so much more, because fewer people would have been turned off CoD, and some of them might have had produced interesting missions, skins, campaigns, etc, etc.

I just come from a culture where we don't spend years and years gleefully kicking somebody lying on the ground, but obviously others have no qualms about that and actually rather enjoy it. It is so easy to criticize and hate. Takes much more to help out and contribute...

JG52_Krupi
Sep-17-2012, 18:57
If there hadn't been this rabid pack piling on the hate we would have had so much more, because fewer people would have been turned off CoD, and some of them might have had produced interesting missions, skins, campaigns, etc, etc.

I just come from a culture where we don't spend years and years gleefully kicking somebody lying on the ground, but obviously others have no qualms about that and actually rather enjoy it. It is so easy to criticize and hate. Takes much more to help out and contribute...

If only more people had your perspective :(

ATAG is a shinning example of what things should be like :salute:

Old_Canuck
Sep-17-2012, 20:00
I feel really sorry for Neville Chamberlain. The most wrongly maligned leader of the British Nation in History.

'I do not propose to give an appreciation of Neville Chamberlain's life and character, but there were certain qualities always admired in these Islands which he possessed in an altogether exceptional degree. He had a physical and moral toughness of fibre which enabled him all through his varied career to endure misfortune and disappointment without being unduly discouraged or wearied. He had a precision of mind and an aptitude for business which raised him far above the ordinary levels of our generation. He had a firmness of spirit which was not often elated by success, seldom downcast by failure, and never swayed by panic. When, contrary to all his hopes, beliefs and exertions, the war came upon him, and when, as he himself said, all that he had worked for was shattered, there was no man more resolved to pursue the unsought quarrel to the death. The same qualities which made him one of the last to enter the war, made him one of the last who would quit it before the full victory of a righteous cause was won.' - Winston S. Churchill

We should always remember that it was Chamberlain who declared war, against the advice of the likes of Lord Halifax.

Sorry Chaps, got all serious there for some reason. :D

Wow, Dutch, I was in wonder at your writing skills but it was Churchill: a wordsmith with few equals. Thanks for sharing this perspective which we rarely hear this side of the pond. It's a side of Chamberlain that I was unaware of and your source is credible IMHO.

On topic - I'll buy the sequel just for the Rata and other goodies. Besides, it won't be long before all you hard core sim junkies are looking for a change. Sixty dollars is cheap entertainment when a night at the movies with a couple of friends costs more and it's all over in a couple of hours.

Tvrdi
Sep-18-2012, 03:51
If there hadn't been this rabid pack piling on the hate we would have had so much more, because fewer people would have been turned off CoD, and some of them might have had produced interesting missions, skins, campaigns, etc, etc.

Im sorry but I think this wasnt the main reason ppl left CLOD....btw there are missions, skins etc....just look for them

aus3620
Sep-18-2012, 04:01
.... kinda like my wife telling me about all the drama where she works (medical office full of women)


LOL, excellent! ... the most under-rated post in this thread!
Know exactly what you mean!

BTW I'll be buying the sequel, had a heap of fun with CLoD, even with all the short-comings.

JG52_Krupi
Sep-18-2012, 05:46
Im sorry but I think this wasnt the main reason ppl left CLOD....btw there are missions, skins etc....just look for them

Of course it was not the main reason but that's besides the point clearly MG had fallen down and rather come to there aid people decided to kick them, quite frankly disturbing behaviour that I also believe led to management forcing luthier to drop the support and hurry up with the next title.

Tvrdi
Sep-18-2012, 09:48
MG had fallen down and rather come to there aid people decided to kick them, quite frankly disturbing behaviour that I also believe led to management forcing luthier to drop the support and hurry up with the next title.

And what was the behaviour of the 1C team from day one? Lies ("new" sounds, "epileptic filter" cra*, telling ppl "just one more patch and you will see 50% of performance boost") Where they excelled? In development or in communication? Neither...When they directly asked the community for help (if you dont count ppl playing the alpha and then beta after they thought they bought finished sim)?.When they openhartedly asked ppl to join beta and open beta teams? Never...What was the tone of B6 and spec. Luthier posts? Was it professional or arrogant and cynical tone? Informative?...Nope. They even dont have a bloody english speaking PR person to post answers on the forum. Super Mario game has one. I think they failed on all fronts...now they are fixing things and last patch gives hopes....but only die hard fans are still around (me to I guess, since I play this and bought a fekin new card for it). This is 2012. and you might lose customers if your not giving them some minimum of todays standards. Pretty simple. BTW after all the fuzz all they have is - us. Die hard fans who are still around and who will buy the sequel....but they will close the store if the new sim wouldnt be finished and optimized and with some minimum standards (lets say collision model for trees which even the old stinky IL2 has"). Because, all the other ppl wont buy it. Simple as that.

Vulgar
Sep-18-2012, 09:48
Took long enough for them to finally get to the point of saying, we need more money to continue. Happy to see it finally get there, perhaps some of the more blatant things will get attended to. Either the additional funds will float the project, or the end is near, if they do not get enough sales it will be the end, at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel, we just do not know yet whether it is a dead end with nothing more than a lamp, or leads to the happy valley. I certainly hope it is the entrance to the happy valley.

All the complaining is understandable, but certainly will do no good at all in support of any upcoming paid for release. Those who have actually lived life, and taken chances, have all learned the hard way, it is never as easy as they say, and will cost one hell of a lot more than you ever thought it would.

Personally, I would be happy to pay a lot more than most, just do it right. Aces High is $15 a month, that's $180 USD a year, every year. Considering the rather small community size of CLOD, they better charge enough to be able to pay for good workers and support the financial continuation of the game, if they do not earn enough funds it will be the end. Only time will tell if it is nothing more than a ploy by management to eek out a few more dollars, or a genuine attempt to further the game. I am willing to pay and take the chance that perhaps they are going to do their best to redeem face.

A lot of people should stop the bitching and put their money were their mouth is, pay up (think that applies more to the banana forum people not the atag'rs), everyone has bills to pay and mouth's to feed, if you want the game to continue, start forking out that money. The developers need to be able to support their families, nobody can continue working without something in return. It is not just a matter or what someone wants, but the reality of sustainment of life.

You have to pay to play, nothing in life is free.

Tvrdi
Sep-18-2012, 10:02
Took long enough for them to finally get to the point of saying, we need more money to continue. Happy to see it finally get there, perhaps some of the more blatant things will get attended to. Either the additional funds will float the project, or the end is near, if they do not get enough sales it will be the end, at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel, we just do not know yet whether it is a dead end with nothing more than a lamp, or leads to the happy valley. I certainly hope it is the entrance to the happy valley.

All the complaining is understandable, but certainly will do no good at all in support of any upcoming paid for release. Those who have actually lived life, and taken chances, have all learned the hard way, it is never as easy as they say, and will cost one hell of a lot more than you ever thought it would.

Personally, I would be happy to pay a lot more than most, just do it right. Aces High is $15 a month, that's $180 USD a year, every year. Considering the rather small community size of CLOD, they better charge enough to be able to pay for good workers and support the financial continuation of the game, if they do not earn enough funds it will be the end. Only time will tell if it is nothing more than a ploy by management to eek out a few more dollars, or a genuine attempt to further the game. I am willing to pay and take the chance that perhaps they are going to do their best to redeem face.

A lot of people should stop the bitching and put their money were their mouth is, pay up (think that applies more to the banana forum people not the atag'rs), everyone has bills to pay and mouth's to feed, if you want the game to continue, start forking out that money. The developers need to be able to support their families, nobody can continue working without something in return. It is not just a matter or what someone wants, but the reality of sustainment of life.

You have to pay to play, nothing in life is free.

Agree...completely..I just dont like when somebody lies to me or when I feel defrauded...Like I said, its not even about the money...its that they disappointed me (not only me) and excuses are false...After all Im their bloody customer not a girlfriend...Ok that would be enough from me on this topic.

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-18-2012, 12:44
..After all Im their bloody customer not a girlfriend...

roflmao

Heh, so true. That gave me a chuckle.