Death of a Merlin at 10 Angels

[ATAG_Snapper]

Can't let Dutch corner the market on boring videos! :PP

Just did a comparison run between two Spitfire 2a's: one from Cliffs of Dover followed by an identical run with a 2a from Air 2 Air's much-vaunted Wings of Power 3 Spitfire I/II. The scenario was the same: quick warm-up on the field, then a scramble to 25 Angels to intercept a high-flying reconnaissance

bogey.

Take off for both was done with the same settings: rad full open, full throttle (= 9 lbs boost), pitch Full Fine (= 3000 rpms). After wheels up, nose was held down to allow speed to increase to 200 mph IAS. Then radiator was closed to 50% (CoD)/"Normal" (A2A); pitch coarsened to climb setting of 2850 rpms. Trim was set to allow constant speed of 185 mph IAS.

To spare you 12.5 minutes of unmitigated boredom, the CoD Spit burned out its Merlin at EXACTLY 10 angels (not 9900 feet, not 10,100 feet; 10,000 feet as the needle hit the mark! Hmmm). The A2A Spit climbed steadily to 25K + without a hiccup. I noticed the Rate of Climb gauge ("variometer") showed the CoD Spit climbing an avg of 2300 fpm, and the A2A Spit climbing 3300 fpm on average. However, others have pointed out the CoD ROC gauge is inaccurate, so this difference may not be significant due to possible instrument error. I did not stopwatch the climbouts.

I say,simply give the A2A Spit some working guns and import it directly into Cliffs of Dover. It's got more levers and buttons to play with, and you can actually trim it out and go for a beer without it wandering off course or into the drink.

The CoD climbout was filmed in its entirety (because it didn't last long), the A2A climbout was edited to shorten things (because it did last long). Note I moved the mouse cursor over the gauges intermittently to show their readings. The CoD's temps didn't actually hit critical temps of 97 (oil) or 120 (glycol) before throwing a head gasket. But hitting the 10K mark EXACTLY when the shaking started is a little suspect, IMHO.

Enjoy! :)

https://vimeo.com/49806991


https://vimeo.com/49806991

EDIT: many have asked "Why 25 angels?" (well, no one has actually asked. Yet. But I'm just anticipating the question, TBH). I apparently forgot to turn on the oxygen in the A2A run, so I blacked out from anoxia just past the 25K point....which I quickly edited out. Bloody silly sim.

[ATAG_Torian]

Hmmm.....no rhyme or reason to it is there. According to these specs http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit2pnfs3.jpg
if 100 octane is modelled (and all IIa's had 100 oct in the real BoB) then u were within operational limits.
By experience I wouldn't run a IIa in CloD at 2850 for too long knowing it's disposition to burn out even with temps within normal limits.
Truly, if they don't fix these porked FMs then "the few" in CloD will likely get fewer. The smart ones in the know already fly blue.
What the heck is the matter with us Snapper ?!?! Somebody slap some sense into us.

[ATAG_Snapper]

We're gluttons for punishment, to be sure! :P

Many of us were brought up with the BoB since young lads. My Dad was RAAF ('42 - '45), not on fighters but he encouraged me as a kid to build models of Spits, Hurries, 109's etc etc. For years my room had an ever-changing arrangement of planes hanging from the ceiling with white, orange, and yellow strings of yarn "tracers" streaking from one to the other. Flying these sims 50 years later, I haven't come very far! LOL

Unfortunately, Cliffs of Dover leaves the whole Battle of Britain experience coming up short. The Russian devs, from Ilya, B6, on down seem a passionless lot as far as CoD goes. The technicals of CoD are amazing in many ways, but then fail miserably on actually flying the sim. The same for its potential -- overwhelming except there seems to be little will or competence to see it through on the part of the devs.

Despite its lack of guns, the A2A Spit is exhilarating in how true to spec it flies. It IS easy for the unwary to break this Spit -- by overheating, by over stressing the airframe, or just by clumsy handling. Actually, if you can successfully fly, say, the CoD Spit 1a 100 octane without overheating it, you will find flying the A2A Spit 1a or 2a a breeze. This is because the CoD version has you so paranoid of overheating, the A2A version gives plenty of notice of doing the same. Flying the A2A Spits I can easily see why the RAF loved the Merlins. Sure, you can break 'em if you're not "on it", but otherwise they're real thoroughbreds -- lots of performance and very strong.

Turning off Engine Temperature Effects gives a hint of what could be, but it still doesn't match the feel of HORSEPOWER that the A2A Spitfire gives you. Take offs are amazing at full throttle. The tail comes up almost instantly, you're in the air before you're ready, and you're desperately hauling up the undercarriage before you pass 160 mph! The 1a is the most fun since you have to hand crank the damn wheels up (about 17 cranks IIRC) and keep the speed under 160 while you do it without a hand on the throttle! LOL

I doubt we'll see much, if any, improvement to the RAF fighter FM's anytime soon. It would've been done 18 months ago if Ilya had any wish to. The A2A people had done their research very well and it shows in the finished cockpit and the on-specification Flight Modelling. The CoD Spitfire cockpits, OTOH, are unfinished, sloppy, and the Spitfire's FM absolutely shoddy. Like comparing a Jaguar to a Lada, unfortunately. :(

[ChiefRedCloud]

Nice Snapper .... I shared your video and write up with the folks at New Wings ... got a couple of fledglings over there (they just got CloD) .... Steering them here for the GOOD and BAD news ... I also agree with yours and Torian's comments ....

[ATAG_Snapper]

Thanks, Chief. On balance I've enjoyed great gameplay and camaraderie on the ATAG Server and Teamspeak. The frustrations of CoD that all of us know too well hopefully won't cast too much of a pall for newcomers. The feeling of flight in CoD is very good, and at different times of the day the landscape and Channel are absolutely stunning to behold. Attacking bombers is a realistic challenge in tactics, especially since Wolf boosted the defending gunners' marksmanship. I've gotten better at high speed passes and deflection shooting, but still have a lot of room for improvement -- which is a lot of fun, including when you're up there with a couple of mates on Teamspeak.

I'm hoping against hope that, against all odds, the devs will actually repair the more glaring aspects of the FM's (including the 109's vicious stall) and the Net Code. IMHO these aspects would vastly improve online playability (as would repair of AI and Comms fix offline play). Other missing/broken features such as weather/clouds, etc will no doubt have to wait until the sequel. I'm hoping. :D

Tell your mates to intro themselves here. Turkish has just recently joined us here, but I'm impressed with the proactive approach he's taken to figuring things out. He asks a lot of questions and clearly does a lot of grunt work on his own re testing & evaluating. I'm just glad that so far he's flying on the Red side! LOL

[Dutch]

Hmmmm, lovely music choice there Snapper. :D

I've resisted the temptation to buy the A2A Spit. I think mainly because it'll make the Cliffs FMs look sillier than they already do, and also because my G940 no longer works properly in FSX for some reason I still can't fathom.

I have the Just Flight Spit and Hurri for FSX, but they're a bit of a joke, frankly. However, they also have monster acceleration on take-off compared to Cliffs.

The one thing I do miss most in FSX and old IL2 compared to Cliffs are the cockpit shadows though. They really do add something for me.

So anyway, exploding engines or oxygen starvation? Choices choices.............:D

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hmmmm, lovely music choice there Snapper. :D

You noticed! LOL

Thanks again for pointing me towards "British Dance Music". There are a number of different albums, all at ridiculously low prices on iTunes. The one I selected has about 20 tunes for $5.99 CDN. I had been unsuccessfully looking for non-hit contemporary music, the sort of thing that would've been playing in the background on any radio back in 1940. These tunes that you had suggested are all listed as being from the '20's and '30's, which just have the perfect atmosphere to 'em, IMHO. :thumbsup:




So anyway, exploding engines or oxygen starvation? Choices choices.............:D

Next time I'll remember to hook on my O2 mask! :PP

[Dutch]

By the way, it's 'Shift/E' to open your canopy in FSX. :D

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

anyone else find themselves moving their own mouse over the instruments in Snapper's video... :doh:

[ATAG_Snapper]

anyone else find themselves moving their own mouse over the instruments in Snapper's video... :doh:


Has anyone else watched the damn thing long enough? LOL (I DID say it was boring! :D)

Yesterday I did the same climb outs in the Spit 2a in Cliffs of Dover (offline) with Engine Temperature Effects turned off. Quite an eye opener -- the Spitfire scooted up to service heights (up to 25K altitude) at 9 lbs boost at constant speeds of 185 IAS and 160 AIS without burning out the engine, and at 11 lbs boost (Boost Cut Out Override activated). At 11 lbs boost in a hard climb I found, as we know with beta 1.08, the mixture lever must be pushed forward into Full Lean which is incorrect on a real Spitfire. However, at 19 angels the Spit 2a begins coughing and losing power (at this altitude boost has decreased down to 6.0 lbs), but pulling the lever back to Full Rich immediately cures this will no apparent ill effects.

Unchecking (deactivating) ETE makes the RAF planes far more realistic in terms of performance (speed and climb), but still significantly less than the Spitfire 2a modelled in A2A Wings of Power 3. The 109 also experiences a small improvement in performance with ETE switched off, but to a lesser extent than the RAF fighters. With ETE switched off, we've found the 109E4 and the 1A 100 octane/2a to be an even match in speed, the Spits have the sustained turning advantage, but the 109's have superior dive capabilities (bunting, acceleration, and VMax) and firepower.

The downside is that none of the CoD aircraft (including bombers of both sides AFAIK) need to be concerned with overheating issues, which is unrealistic and unacceptable.

I've found flying the Spitfire 1a 100 octane offline with ETE switched off to be an interesting experience. No "drogue chute" holding it back, plus correct engine settings can be used with the resulting performance much closer to RL specs. OTOH, the Boost Cut Out Override can be used continuously, which is unrealistic. (Of course, with ETE turned off, the 109's can likewise use WEP continuously without risk of overheating -- also unrealistic). This does show what is possible, however, to make gameplay much more enjoyable and satisfying online for the Red pilots, if Ilya saw fit to do so. Basically, all the devs have to do is render the FM's of the RAF and LW fighters close to that achievable when ETE is turned off, but have Engine Temperature Effects realistically modelled in all aircraft. It's easily done from a dev's viewpoint, it's not rocket science, and could easily be done as a "hotfix" patch. Again, IF Ilya sees fit to do so.

[ATAG_Colander]

We have to wait for the next (last) patch and see if things improved. If they don't, we will have to take matters into our own hands.

[ATAG_Deacon]

We have to wait for the next (last) patch and see if things improved. If they don't, we will have to take matters into our own hands.

Sorry, and I know I'll get bashed...but this is just my opinion. WE know that Red is broken and can do something about it NOW. In the spirit of competition why not correct things NOW?

I've not flown that much, I can name a ton of people who fly Red who do not fly anymore because of the state of the game. Again, just my opinion but if turning off ETE would make things more competitive, it might be a way to motivate folks to fly again...

I know, I know...take off further away...climb high and stay there...

That's all great, but then the Red targets lie unprotected :doh: You're screwed if you do and screwed if you don't...

Let the bashing begin :recon:

~S~

Deacon

[Ohms]

Hi All

I hope the next patch helps cure some of this games issues and ATAG don't have to take matters into their own hands because this would open a can of worms and fling of poo which you don't deserve! Look at some of the comments on the banana forum when you switched serve # 2 for tests only of the temp effects.Just my two cents worth.

Ohmie

Though what Deacon suggest's WOULD bring me and more of the 71 st back for sure.

[Dutch]

In the spirit of competition why not correct things NOW?

Well it may come as a surprise to some, given the history, the research, and the tongue in cheek sig, but I honestly don't believe we should change server 1. Yet.

Don't get me wrong, even with my research into workaround settings, I still blow up if I lose too much speed climbing after a bad guy and it's extremely frustrating.

But, if after the final patch we still have these problems, personally I'd be more inclined to walk away from the game entirely than fly with temps off. If they ignore their customers to that degree, in an issue so easily resolved, well I'll let you finish the sentence as you see fit..........

Maybe we'd better wait and see, but only for so long.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Deacon, I've sent you a PM; ETE on/off is a very divisive issue.

Personally, I've resolved to cease online flying until the devs fix this thing. With ETE "on" the FM for RAF fighters is broken, and for me the immersion is gone, frustration is high, and flying CoD is no longer fun -- it's exasperating. When a recreational activity is no longer "fun", then, for me, it's time to do other things.

Hopefully the beta Release Candidate patch will resolve this issue. :thumbsup:

[ATAG_Deacon]

Deacon, I've sent you a PM; ETE on/off is a very divisive issue.

Yup...


Personally, I've resolved to cease online flying until the devs fix this thing. With ETE "on" the FM for RAF fighters is broken, and for me the immersion is gone, frustration is high, and flying CoD is no longer fun -- it's exasperating. When a recreational activity is no longer "fun", then, for me, it's time to do other things.

It's very unfortunate...very. Most Red feel the same way.


Hopefully the beta Release Candidate patch will resolve this issue. :thumbsup:

Your mouth to "gods" ears. ETE on or off this thing is broke in a way that has divided this community. :(

I used to say "screw it, just fly"...but I just feel screwed in the end. :(:(:(

~S~

Deacon

[Dutch]

Of course there is an alternative to 'temps off'. Revert to last official version. We had a lot of fun even with the launcher crashes.

I know I'm fed up to the back teeth with this beta patch.

[ATAG_Deacon]

Of course there is an alternative to 'temps off'. Revert to last official version. We had a lot of fun even with the launcher crashes.



Egads man, not a competitive Spit II or Rotol Hurri...blasphemy...

I'd be all for it!

[ATAG_Snapper]

Egads man, not a competitive Spit II or Rotol Hurri...blasphemy...

I'd be all for it!

Oops! Another divisive issue!!!! :doh:

I'm not going there!!!! :hide:

:)

[Ohms]

That does sound like the best solution.

[ATAG_JTDawg]

Have to agree ,I have only flown 2 times in the last month. tired of work arounds to fly broke planes in a broke game . REALLY tired of the blue verse red thing. red are whiners an blue dont care cause they fly with inpunity= Red are not whiners , we have flown complete junk for 19 or 20 months including are main staple that wouldn't even start for over a month, again really. AN BLUE upsets me the worst, so scared that there ego's might take a bath in what they thought was their great flying ability Due to a broke game!!! JUST imagin if blue had these problems, engine temps would be off ETC ETC WHATEVER IT TAKES WOULD BE THE BATTLE CRY == Here is what really chaps my hide , An it happens all the time . I say this one becouse Deacon was also there We had 5 spits diff models an 2 bombers with us Macro an me from the 71st ,Deacon An 2 other pilots . We had these bombers covered in a blanket of fighters or so we thought , NOW you would think if a lone 109 saw this coming at him he would say man those bombers are going to make it to target, just me an 5 spits i don't have a chance !! Not the 109 jock we have in this game WHY ? BECOUSE HE KNEW WHEN WE STARTED THERE WAS NOTHING WE COULD DO!! pass after pass as we watched helplessly even slowing down a bit to nail both bombers in 1 pass an getting hits on several fighters :grrr: This is the game we play a 1 sided crap game with so many work arounds we fill up every forum to hell an back with no real changes , just more work arounds!!! This game is crap . !!! An i'm loosing interest faster everyday an every post!! To see a guy who post the bad in the game then get threatened with some code waiting for him if he joins a server not saying the name . But really thats what the game has come to , thats about all i can take!! it should have never come to that !! Totol bs AN i know many many guys feel the same, remember when you use to have to wait to get in ATAG full game all day every day. Now we are down to 10 20 25 at most, mostly after a patch to see what was brokin this time !! But those were the glory days When a hurricane could deal with a 109 in a good fight an a salute when done !! REMEMBER IN REAL LIFE THE FIGHTERS WERE PRETTY CLOSE =IS THAT WHAT WE HAVE? WOULD A SMART PILOT ATTACK 5 SPITS ALONE ? BE FOR REAL? ENOUGH CRAP! ENOUGH TREATS ! ENOUGH NAME CALLING ! DID LUTHIER ANSWER QUESTIONS? DOES BLACK6 EVER REALLY ANSWER A THING? SO LETS KEEP FIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER . IT SURE KEEPS ALOT OF HEAT OFF THE DEVS AN A BROKE GAME WITH LIES AN WORSE FIXES . RIGHT, GET A GRIP, GUYS HAVE A RIGHT TO BE MAD AS DO THE GUYS THAT THINK THIS IS THE GREATEST GAME SINCE COD LIVER OIL WITH THIER ROSE COLORED GLASSES now let the chips fall , couse i really don't care any more . we should have got together better as a community to help fix the problems not to break up into 2 teams without listening to the others complaints . think about it when your ready to make your post on this forum or anouther?

[ATAG_Deacon]

we should have got together better as a community to help fix the problems not to break up into 2 teams without listening to the others complaints

Dawg...I agree. The biggest issue is that BOTH sides are broken, one just a heck of a lot more than the other. And with these dev's the issues for the one side get better while the issues for the other have become worse. I would love to see both sides fixed...until then there will be fewer and fewer players :(




Revert to last official version. We had a lot of fun even with the launcher crashes.

If it's possible, I would be back and fly more...but I think the consensus will be to wait and see what the next/last official patch brings...

[Dutch]

...but I think the consensus will be to wait and see what the next/last official patch brings...

Yup. That's why I said what I said in the post before the last one. I haven't flown in Cliffs for maybe a week now, largely because of these issues. Been doing more 'RoFfing'. But that's not because I prefer the game, just that it works, and I can dogfight with Jerry without my engine exploding.

Anything's better than (cough) flying blue (although I do like to fly that floatplane offline :D )

[Mastiff]

I have come to the conclusion that Blue side is paying more money to 1C Axis's model and FM tweakers....

Russian typical mafioso's....

or the guy that's working on them is not being quality controled by Luthier?

[XE9O]

~S~ I do agree with Deacon,Dawg and Ohime. I have been playing less for the same reasons, I will get online and do a bomber run from time to time.
Some time i think IL2 1946 is better until i see the graphics. Been watching more TV and I hate TV.

If it wasn't for the 71st Gang and the friends i made on ATAG i would have dropped this game a long time ago.


CO 71st_AH_XE90

[ATAG_Knuckles]

Same here: Just really nothing going on when I get online: Certainly NOT going away, just been busy with two other projects: Still waiting:

[92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)]

Interesting thoughts all round chaps.

Despite the obvious FM and general game issues, I ditched IL2-1946 and moved over to CLoD permanently a long while back. Here's why I keep playing it;
1. There's a small core of guys online who make for good online company. We've managed to eek out an existence and do fairly well for ourselves against the superior blue machines, based on good (and improving) teamwork and tactics
2. CLoD is just too far ahead of 1946 in terms of FM and damage modelling for me to go back. I loved IL2, but I always found that it could be "gamed" too easily. I think CLoD requires just that little bit more real-life flying knowledge (not that it's perfect.. far from it!)
3. I'm still hoping, perhaps foolishly, that the developer will finally sort the main, glaring issues with a patch... I could go on playing the game as it is, but I'd rather not... UFO Enemy unknown is out soon ;)
4. Guys like your own ATAG_Wolf who've clearly invested loads of hours into making the best of an overall lacking product, keep me interested that this platform can produce a really engaging experience...

Anyways, will be online loads this week, so see you up there.

[ATAG_Jeepy]

Hey JT.. You still alive m8 :devilish:
Miss U man. The light is still on ;)

Agree with much of what You say man, but ther's no
other game I wanna play right now, so I'm still here. "Occupational damage" I'm afraid..lol
(The doctor took my pilot license but my wife let me keep my pc..;-)
This is just the best ww2 air combat sim we got right now imo.

Every new patch force me to switch tactics..but so be it.. If I die, I blame my self
MayB I should find me another game/community..alot out there
-but I just love the nice "core" in the server during late hours..
Well, most of them that is..but we are not suppose to love the enemys..lol
THX Bliss, Wolf, and all others in and around ATAG :salute:
I just know that without You guys, I've been gone a long time ago!

And then to You pstyle : +1. :thumbsup:

~s~
(mp jeepy;)

[ATAG_JTDawg]

Dawg, I love your posts, but I had to get a little heavy handed with the editing brush. Please everyone, we can't do any personal attacks on this forum. -- ATAG_Snapper, Moderator Extremus

JEEEEEEPY LOVE YA MAN !! That there inlies the problem , if there was any an i mean anything out there , that was even semi close CLOD. (CRAP GAME ) This game would not have made it more than a few months. a ghost town as it were!OH WAIT thats pretty much what we have now! I dont have enough fingers an toes to count all the friends we have lost to this game. Not to cancer not to heart attacks or what ever. IT comes down to 1 thing total lack of skill by thier programmers ,ie. incompetence, !!! [EDITED] has the joke in his hand, waiting for bom, bos . whatever ready to give us anouther dry humpping without a complimentry reach around ! all for the sake of the almighty dollar. This game really has no contents to keep it going. ie maps campainge off line online PLANES THAT FLY RIGHT. it really dont matter we dont have it!!! IF this game was close to a game there would not be all the pages an pages of fighting everyday! They would be flying ,having fun killing an being killed , Instead we wait for friday updates!! glued to the forums watching saying please please to no avail ! To see [EDITED] play on the forums using the old ropa dope mahomad ali made so famous... I look at his answers lmao becouse there was no answers , I understand the langauge thing BUT COME ON, typical answers no yes maybe in sequel , cant say blah blah blah , HE really needs to stop posting, just more gas on the fire . THEN now lets get to the almighty [EDITED]!! He will answer questions to put to bed , to quite down all the nay sayers once an for all !! How did that work out for us? He said just like arnold schwatnegger I'LL BE BACK !!! STILL WAITING STILL WONDERING. SO he not only turned out to be a lier , but proved once again [EDITED] IS a LIAR. AN NOTHING MORE THEN A LAP DOG ! Please dont give me all the legal reason why , THEY could have answered q &a like they said period, I have been telling there lies for months an months , convincing many a guy to stick around it will get better . that they cant get away with this game in its current state , now they have turned me into a liar too. But there was 1 post that finally broke me . it flipped my whole way of thinking . my rose colored glasses hit the floor breaking. AN let us not forget last month they were putting the final patch together !! no more talk about that i see ? to much venom to much crap ! THIS IS TO ALL OF THE FRIENDS WE HAVE LOST TO ALL ARE FRIENDS THAT COULDNT HANG ON TO ALL THE GUYS WHO PUT HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS INTO PC'S WHO STILL GET EXE CRASHES GRAFICAL ISSUES FOR THOSE THAT WILL NEVER SEE 128 MULTI PLAYER ONLINE GAMING BECOUSE THE GAME IS STILL CRAP !!! WE SALUUUUUTE YOU !!!!!:(

[ATAG_JTDawg]

SORRY SNAPPER . I'LL get in touch with you . pm ok

[Dutch]

Shame.

Isn't that why people on forums have aliases?

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

The Russian devs, from Ilya, B6, on down seem a passionless lot as far as CoD goes. The technicals of CoD are amazing in many ways, but then fail miserably on actually flying the sim. The same for its potential -- overwhelming except there seems to be little will or competence to see it through on the part of the devs.... The CoD Spitfire cockpits are unfinished, sloppy, and the Spitfire's FM absolutely shoddy.

Salute

Of course the issues noted about the Red planes in this thread have been partly solved, I am commenting here about what was said above.

I believe this is the essence of the problem with the game. Luthier and his Russian compatriots in 1C are not interested in British and American planes, Oleg was inclined the same way, but his professionalism and perfectionism made him do things right in the end.

All of the information was available to this 1C team, but they couldn't be bothered to get it right. CLIFFS OF DOVER is a placeholder till they can get back to their favorites, I-16's, LaGG's and Yaks.

Anyone who is trying to make a place in the International Market for their product has to realize there are standards to be met: Objectivity, thoroughness and meeting the goals you set. Unfortunately all three elements fell short in CoD. If you commit to make a game about the Battle of Britain, then do it right.

I had a bad feeling a couple years ago when it was revealed that Oleg had departed for greener pastures. After seeing Luthier's management of PACIFIC FIGHTERS, and the mistakes made there which almost cost the game, I was concerned. And all those fears have been proven correct with this game. Same mistakes here, misallocation of resources for example. Does a Battle of Britain game really need the BR-20, G-50, CR-42, Gladiator, Beaufighter, Focke-Wulf Condor, and the other planes which did not play a significant part in the battle and which are never used? Does it really need the number and variety of tanks and Train engines it has? If the team was short of resources, wouldn't it have been better to focus on the planes which really mattered and make sure they were done correctly? How about some ships for the British so we can play the only part of the Battle which is playable, ie. the Battle of the Convoys?

Planning, execution and passion, all were missing.

Game is an interesting failure, I'll admit that, love flying the planes, the mechanics, but it just doesn't make up for all the glitches.

[9./JG52 Jamz Dackel]

Salute

Of course the issues noted about the Red planes in this thread have been partly solved, I am commenting here about what was said above.

I believe this is the essence of the problem with the game. Luthier and his Russian compatriots in 1C are not interested in British and American planes, Oleg was inclined the same way, but his professionalism and perfectionism made him do things right in the end.

All of the information was available to this 1C team, but they couldn't be bothered to get it right. CLIFFS OF DOVER is a placeholder till they can get back to their favorites, I-16's, LaGG's and Yaks.

Anyone who is trying to make a place in the International Market for their product has to realize there are standards to be met: Objectivity, thoroughness and meeting the goals you set. Unfortunately all three elements fell short in CoD. If you commit to make a game about the Battle of Britain, then do it right.

I had a bad feeling a couple years ago when it was revealed that Oleg had departed for greener pastures. After seeing Luthier's management of PACIFIC FIGHTERS, and the mistakes made there which almost cost the game, I was concerned. And all those fears have been proven correct with this game. Same mistakes here, misallocation of resources for example. Does a Battle of Britain game really need the BR-20, G-50, CR-42, Gladiator, Beaufighter, Focke-Wulf Condor, and the other planes which did not play a significant part in the battle and which are never used? Does it really need the number and variety of tanks and Train engines it has? If the team was short of resources, wouldn't it have been better to focus on the planes which really mattered and make sure they were done correctly? How about some ships for the British so we can play the only part of the Battle which is playable, ie. the Battle of the Convoys?

Planning, execution and passion, all were missing.

Game is an interesting failure, I'll admit that, love flying the planes, the mechanics, but it just doesn't make up for all the glitches.

Certainly agree..

The resourses they have used on the things you have mentioned and didnt really need must of cost an absolute bomb (no pun intended)..

BoB- Fighters/Bombers/Ships and those 3 things done well, done right...

*EDIT* where are all the people who swore blind CoD will be fixed and fixed right and slated everyone who was sceptical, havent seen the likes of them piping away over at 1c now we have our 'finished' version of CoD with its blatant vaults

Love the game and continue to play it, its just a shame thats all

[ATAG_Snapper]

Heh, I reread my post from less than a month ago -- I was some pissed! We were in the midst of the Merlin glass engine stage when we were blowing engines repeatedly. Switching off ETE put Spits and 109's on parity performance-wise, but eliminated the challenge of temperature management for those who flew aircraft that weren't broken. A very frustrating time for some of us and divisive for all.

A month later not all is perfect, but we have had a rapid series of patches in a sincere effort by Luthier and his team to put the FM's right. Many issues remain for aircraft of both sides, so it's important that we develop work arounds for all. Thanks to the efforts of IvanK we're getting a handle on the strengths and foibles of the RAF fighters and he's also apparently having a look at the 109's. Ongoing flight testing by Buzzsaw and others are giving us further critical data settings to work with in a combat environment.

Personally, I love combat reports. Anecdotal to be sure, but all of us who fly regularly online can quickly peer through "the fog of war" and decide what makes sense and what may have clouded the participant's perception. No aircraft are performing true-to-spec, but some are closer than others. In many cases we have to go "non-historic" in how we fly the plane and how combat situations are handled or avoided. Nonetheless, AFAIC this is the best game in town and I'm flying with and against the best guys in the business!

[Dutch]

Does a Battle of Britain game really need the BR-20, G-50, CR-42, Gladiator, Beaufighter, Focke-Wulf Condor, and the other planes which did not play a significant part in the battle and which are never used? Does it really need the number and variety of tanks and Train engines it has?

I have my own theory about this. The original working title, 'Storm of War', the inclusion of so many tanks and trains, the peculiar selection of 'unflyable' a/c. It all points toward yet unrealised goals by the team for reason or reasons unknown.

Take the inclusion of the Bf108 as AI only. What is the point? Obviously the original intention was for this to be flyable for a LW training campaign. Unrealised goal.

All of those vehicles, together wih a 'vehicle control' menu in the GUI. Unrealised goal.

Once, I even put forward the theory of a maritime training and operational aspect, i.e. Tiger Moth-Walrus-Sunderland. But there are not many ships or subs to attack with a flyable Sunderland. Or a flyable He-115 come to that. The one ship they introduced after release, the minensuchboot, was met with derision by much of the community, but boy has it been useful in online missions. Maritime Aspect - Unrealised goal.

I just think that the original concept was far away and above what we currently have, but they simply ran out of time and ran out of cash. There seems to have been a peculiar sense of priority with the order in which some things were finished or not finished as the case may be, and they simply included everything that was finished in 'Cliffs'. This is such a shame from one point of view, i.e. what we currently have. But on the other hand, as long as they can keep going, if what I think was the original concept manifests itself over time, we're in for some very good times in the future.

Of course my theory could just be the fantasies of a delusional old fart. :ind:

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

The one ship they introduced after release, the minensuchboot, was met with derision by much of the community, but boy has it been useful in online missions. Maritime Aspect - Unrealised goal.

Salute

Yes, I can see how important this Minelayer is, the frustrating thing is it wouldn't have required much more effort to build enough ships, etc. to create a decent 'Battle of the Convoys'.

1. British Destroyer
2. Freighter
3. Motor Torpedo Boat
4. German Coastal Battery

And of course, properly tunable flak rates are important... Same problem existed in IL-2 with the overdone flak there, after much discussion with Oleg it was tuned to the point it was useable. I created an Operation Pedestal campaign which was a good success, just enough flak to make the bombers job tough, not enough to make their role suicidal.

I really still hope 1C opens this game to modellers who want to create ships etc. It's the smart thing to do, there's a lot of time in two years before BoM comes out, and even if the objects created aren't perfect, who the hell knows when you are going past at 400 kph?