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major_setback
Mar-02-2016, 09:38
Hi there!

I have a question that I hope someone on the Polish forum-page can answer.

I'm making a Wellington skin, and can't find the information I want.

Which is the correct orientation of the small Polish insignia that aircraft carried when flying for the RAF?

1) This?
21102

or

2) This?
21103



According to Wikipedia the second one is correct, but I have seen many pictures showing the first one.

Also, is the insignia reversed on the opposite sides of the aircraft, or does it always look the same?


Photographs are confusing. These two are different:

21104

21105

Thanks for any help,
Cheers, Setback

Erpr.Gr.210_Molders
Mar-02-2016, 10:09
I'm not a Polish markings expert but on the photos you posted I've noted a thing that is common in both....The upper red square in both the images is oriented toward the tail of the plane...maybe this was the standard rule?
As said I'm not an expert so mine is just a possible suggestion. ;) :salute:

Erpr.Gr.210_Molders
Mar-02-2016, 10:17
Also found this that maybe could be of help:


In heraldry, the color of the charge (in this case the white of the Polish eagle) takes precedence over the shield (red in the case of the Polish coat of arms). Because of this, white should be given the most "dominant" or dignified position in a heraldic design representing Poland. In the case of a checkerboard, this would be the upper left corner. (When hung vertically the Polish flag should have white on the left for exactly the same reason). Note that this rule applies to the main color squares, not to the thin border, which is considered decoration.

REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Air_Force_checkerboard

MACHETTTTTE
Mar-02-2016, 14:23
Hi there!

I have a question that I hope someone on the Polish forum-page can answer.

I'm making a Wellington skin, and can't find the information I want.

Which is the correct orientation of the small Polish insignia that aircraft carried when flying for the RAF?

1) This?
21102

or

2) This?
21103



According to Wikipedia the second one is correct, but I have seen many pictures showing the first one.

Also, is the insignia reversed on the opposite sides of the aircraft, or does it always look the same?


Photographs are confusing. These two are different:

21104

21105

Thanks for any help,
Cheers, Setback



Hello Setback,

a very interesting question you have there ;) From the historical point of view option 2 is correct. Poland has started using the first version since 1993, because it is more appropriate according to the rules of heraldry. However, I can confirm that this can be very confusing at times. The only explanation I can think of at the moment concerning the pictures with the inverted checkerboards (option 1) is that maybe the people who painted these decided to use the more appropriate design, predicting the future final layout in a way. Have a look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWn_226hnoE

Before you carry on with your work, may I ask you which Polish squadron's bomber do you want to depict exactly? Maybe I can find a detailed photo to help you out with solving this puzzle.


Cheers and thanks for putting so much effort to be as historically correct as possible,
MACHETTTTTE

Proszę też innych rodaków o pomoc. Może ktoś się lepiej orientuje ;)
Dla nieanglojęzycznych - w skrócie pytanie dotyczy tego, która szachownica jest poprawna dla polskich dywizjonów bombowych w RAF. Chodzi o samolot Vickers Wellington.

b0czek
Mar-02-2016, 15:53
From what I read... (Sorry, I do not know how to scale pictures here).

Until 1921 there was not standarisation, most common was:
http://historia.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Szachownica-lotnicza-z-okresu-1918-1921.png
http://histmag.org/grafika/articles7/lotnictwo/Dywizjon_Kosciuszki.jpg


Please note, this is "most common", many planes had markings painted according to old polish heraldic rules (difference was between looking from behind the marking or just on the marking - I do not know which one is). So, there were also following markings:
http://histmag.org/grafika/articles7/lotnictwo/Breguet_min_555x224.jpg

And many variations (like some mirroring on some sides).

Than, 1921-1993, following one is official:
http://historia.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Szachownica-lotnicza-z-okresu-1921-1993.png
http://histmag.org/grafika/articles7/lotnictwo/PZL_P-37_min_555x242.JPG
Dimensions (without border):
1.35m × 1.35m for wings,
0.55m × 0.55m for fuselage
0.45m × 0.45m for rudder
0.75m × 0.75m for planes with smaller wings (like French Nieuport)
Border had always 5cm (so proportions were different for each checker.

Then, there was additional size regulation, but sequence of colors was not changed.

Can be, that one of the pictures is reversed... Or... I read, that polish squadrons flying in France at begining of WWII had reversed polish markings on fuselage.
So it also can be, that crew flied in France and painted markings according to their french time. So if I get this correctly both marking paintings can be truth.

And last one, since 1993 is:
http://historia.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Szachownica-lotnicza-z-okresu-1993--300x300.png

major_setback
Mar-02-2016, 16:13
Thank you for your interest, and for your comments.

These are the aircraft I want to do skins for:

GR-Z, GR-W (or W-GR?), H-GR (or GR-H?) (I hope I have written these correctly). See the pictures below:

21110

21111

21112

21113

21114


21115

[Edit: Ooops! I just realised that they are not all the same mark, and GR-Z is a later aircraft]


Cheers, Setback

MACHETTTTTE
Mar-02-2016, 19:17
Thank you for your interest, and for your comments.

These are the aircraft I want to do skins for:

GR-Z, GR-W (or W-GR?), H-GR (or GR-H?) (I hope I have written these correctly). See the pictures below:



[Edit: Ooops! I just realised that they are not all the same mark, and GR-Z is a later aircraft]



OK, now we are talking business ;)

I'll skip the GR-Z for now.

Let's focus on GR-W and GR-H.

http://polish-made.com/environment/cache/images/0_0_productGfx_30672726c9de2760a357500e4390474b.jp g

GR-W:
https://www.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Wellington/RAF-301Sqn-GR-W-W5690/images/Artwork-Wellington-B-Mk.IC-RAF-301Sqn-GR-W-W5690-Hemswell-Lincolnshire-1941-0A.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.asisbiz.com/Sitemap-Wellington.xml&h=420&w=1198&tbnid=mjsrLUBZcVSBGM:&docid=PHGP51-DfJKRhM&ei=HGnXVvnoLIKCzAOh8rjYDw&tbm=isch&client=opera&ved=0ahUKEwj55oq9hqPLAhUCAXMKHSE5DvsQMwgdKAEwAQ

As you can see no Polish checkerboard on this one. Left fuselage (like in the picture in the link): W-GR, right fuselage: GR-W. Yes, these are inverted to keep the RAF roundels more or less in the same spot on both sides of the fuselage. Smaller roundel than on GR-H, but bigger letters.

GR-H:
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/559/9/1

http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/img/wydawnictwa/Nocnych_lotow_swiadectwa.pdf (p.15 - right view of the plane)
Same story. Inverted markings. Note, that the RAF roundel is bigger on this plane, but with smaller letters.
As for the checkerboard, I think it is red-white at the top, and white-red at the bottom. So does the man who made this model:

http://www.ipmsusa.org/reviews/Kits/Aircraft/trumpeter_72_wellington/trumpeter_72_wellington.htm
http://www.dishmodels.ru/picture/glr/02/02962/g02962_3599175.jpg
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/167068-maquette-mq-7227-vickers-wellington-mk-ic



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXm0-DLtrAw

Here we have the GR-N from the same 301 squadron. Note the layout of the checkerboard.



Maybe someone has this book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wellington-Squadrons-Focus-Pictorial-History/dp/0955473543
Could be helpful.


That's all I could find. I am not really into bombers... If you give me some time, I'll send e-mail some Polish aviation museums. Maybe they will solve the puzzle.

Cheers
MACHETTTTTE

major_setback
Mar-03-2016, 09:27
Thanks everyone for your help.

I will wait with making the skin until I know a bit more about the insignia. It is strange that it seems to be different from aircraft to aircraft.

Thanks MACHETTTTTE for the information on the roundels, I would not have thought to check their size. IT is not essential that you contact the museum (but nice if you do). It would be interesting to know how the insignia should look... it makes the skins more accurate.

Cheers, Setback

MACHETTTTTE
Mar-03-2016, 13:19
Thanks everyone for your help.

I will wait with making the skin until I know a bit more about the insignia. It is strange that it seems to be different from aircraft to aircraft.

Thanks MACHETTTTTE for the information on the roundels, I would not have thought to check their size. IT is not essential that you contact the museum (but nice if you do). It would be interesting to know how the insignia should look... it makes the skins more accurate.

Cheers, Setback

No problem. Remember also about the plane markings in different order depending on which side they were painted.
I will contact the museum today. Meanwhile, have a look at this photo:

https://www.google.pl/search?q=dywizjon+303&client=opera&hs=fvZ&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVsMrVjqXLAhUIApoKHQM1BIQQ_AUIBygB&biw=1396&bih=689&dpr=1.38#imgrc=A9B_dVWEtMOc4M%3A

The inverted swastika somewhat proves my point, that people who painted the markings did not always know the correct layout. This can be an explanation to the lack of consistency.

Nevertheless, I hope I'll get more information soon.

Cheers

b0czek
Mar-06-2016, 14:30
I just watched some historical program, where I saw Lancaster with Polish crew.

This plane was filmed from both sides.

On starboard it was painted normally, according to formal regulations:
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21103&d=1456929066
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21104

On port it was mirrored.
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21102&d=1456929045
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21105

MACHETTTTTE
Mar-06-2016, 18:33
b0czek, any link to that video or name of the documentary pls?

b0czek
Mar-07-2016, 02:28
Here it is, there was just short shot on one of the Lancasters from both sides.
http://www.filmweb.pl/film/Cichociemni-1989-357567

Accidentaly I watched this, so looks like there was rather no rules, but those are fighters - so no topic here, lets ignore them (start from 1'10"):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmO8Ku85RnY&t=70

major_setback
Mar-12-2016, 07:56
Thanks for the replies.
I will probably make the top forward-facing part of the insignia white on both sides, as that doesn't seem to be wrong, even if other configurations occurred.

Cheers, Setback