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92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Sep-28-2012, 10:52
Hit the banana forums guys.
Luthier just said patch is due in the next hour. (that'll be ~1700 Friday 28 sep 2012 British time) :salute:

335th_GRAthos
Sep-28-2012, 11:55
Ahahahaha! so, the rail-gun does exist! :)

excellent!

Original 1C thread in order to get the working download links: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=34617


Patch download mirrors:

INTL:
http://www.filesend.net/download.php...4032ace64e0f4a
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/109125724/IL2COD_20111.rar
http://www.djow.co.uk/il2/IL2COD_20111.rar

RU:
http://speedy.sh/G3fgU/IL2COD-20111-ru.rar
http://narod.ru/disk/61712866001.182...11-ru.rar.html
https://rapidshare.com/files/1416301...D-20111-ru.rar
http://marine-air-group.ru/downloads...D-20111-ru.rar
(320 Mb)

Torrent:
INTL: http://www.pcpilot.hu/letoltes/il-2-...111-patch.html

Please note that this version is incompatible with previous versions when playing online.

Please download the file and extract the archives to your steam game directory, which is usually
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover


Patch Notes:

Graphics
- Fixed the plane label bug, where the label would hide behind the clouds;
- Corrected brightness for various light sources;
- Fixed the black front line issue;
- Corrected incorrectly aligned water explosion effects;
- Various other minor fixes and improvements.

Network
- Corrected the bug when attempting to connect to a password-protected server after previously entering an incorrect password;
- Corrected the issue that sometimes disabled the country selection controls when connecting to a server;
- Corrected issues with some plane sounds online;
- Exorcised ghost planes;
- Corrected the behavior of “jumping” cars and some other vehicles;
- Fixed the issue where GamePlay.gpAirports() could return incorrect data.

New Features
Servers can now work with user-made map labels in their scripts.
When a user creates a new map label, server receives the following event
OnUserCreateUserLabel(GPUserLabel ul)
Or, when a label is deleted,
OnUserDeleteUserLabel(GPUserLabel ul)
GPUserLabel – label type, where Point2d pos ;
Player Player ;
string Text ;
double time ;
int type;

Available Label Types :
GPUserIconType
Waypoint,
Plane,
AAGun,
Ship,
Factory,
Tank,
Car,
Label

You can also create your own label with
GamePlay.gpMakeUserLabel(p, GamePlay.gpPlayer(), actor.Name(), GamePlay.gpTimeofDay(), (int)GPUserIconType.Plane)
The server can send a label to the players with:
gpDrawUserLabel(world.GPUserLabel ul); // all players on the server
gpDrawUserLabel(int army, world.GPUserLabel ul); all players in int army
gpDrawUserLabel(Player[] to, world.GPUserLabel ul); only the players in the Player[] to list
The labels can also be deleted correspondingly:
gpDeleteUserLabel(world.GPUserLabel ul);
gpDeleteUserLabel(Player[] to, world.GPUserLabel ul);
gpDeleteUserLabel(int army, world.GPUserLabel ul);

FM
Conducted a huge amount of work correcting and improving aircraft flight models as well as most engine models. All work was based on historical flight test data or flight manuals (Sean, what would we do without you!). Unfortunately our flight model does not allow us to perfectly replicate test results at all ranges of altitude. At altitudes above 8000 m (26,000 ft) most aircraft begin to perform worse than their historical counterparts. Addressing this discrepancy requires a large additional amount of work, and will therefore be done in a future release.
Changes in this patch include:

- Various minor changes and corrections to all aircraft.

- Added Hurricane MkI and Spitfire MkI with constant-speed propellers and 100-octane fuel.

- Corrected the Merlin engine model.

- Added pitot heat controls to Spitfires.

- G.50
Fixed engine heat balance that had previously prevented listed HP from being available at all altitudes.
Added +100 boost that can only be used in emergency mode.

- BR-20
Decreased never-exceed airspeed.

- Spitfire Mk.IIa
Corrected (decreased) airspeeds at all altitudes to bring performance down to historical levels.

- Spitfire Mk.Ia
Corrected (increased) airspeeds at altitudes above 6K m.

- Hurricane Mk.Ia
Corrected (decreased) airspeeds at all altitudes alongside Spit II.

- Blenheim Mk.IV
Corrected the engine model.
Corrected altitude performance.
Decreased never-exceed airspeed.
Corrected engine modes at all altitudes (RPM, boost, fuel flow, etc).
Implemented smooth flap control.
Changed the airscrew to two-speed.
Corrected empennage values that created too much interference during take-off.
Affixed springs to bomb bay doors.

- He-111 и Ju-88
Corrected radio compass animations.

- Bf-109
Corrected cockpit animations for trimmer and flap chains.
Corrected flap model
Corrected the flap sounds
Corrected the pitot heat light.

Other flight model and engine changes.
- Corrected negative G cut-out for carburetor engines. The effect will be noticeable at around +0.1G.
- Corrected the mixture control level on Hurricanes and Spitfires. It is now push forward for Lean, pull back for Rich. With that, moving the throttle lever to idle will return the lever to Rich.
- Corrected (increased) low-altitude speeds for most Brutish fighters (Spitfire MkI with DH and Rotol aircrews, Hurricane MkI with DH and Rotol aircrews).
- Corrected Bf-109 rudder behavior.
- Corrected fuel flow calculations for most aircraft.
- Corrected (increased) radiator drag when it is opened.
- Corrected throttle control. The entire range is now useful.
- Corrected overspeed sound. It will now steadily increase in volume depending on airspeed.

- Added a Su-26 acrobatics plane.
You can toggle airshow smoke by injecting oil into the exhaust manifold. This is done with the WEP button by default. The default smoke is white. You can select other colors by selecting corresponding loadout options.

The plane also comes with four easter egg weapons that can be loaded onto the center pylon:

- Shotgun – fires explosive pellets with everyone’ sfavorite green tracers;
- Laser – fires a beam that sets an enemy plane alight. Effective distance is 700m;
- Antimatter mortar – fires anti-matter spitwads;
- Railgun – fires a shell that generates electromagnetic pulse that in turn destroys enemy subsystems, especially engines.

NOTE: Our artificial intelligence simply could not manage the pure awesomeness of this plane. If you try to create doom flights of railgun-armed Su-26s the AI will most likely just crash.
The Su-26 is a special type of a recon plane in the game, so other AI aircraft will mostly ignore it in missions.



-S-

Old_Canuck
Sep-28-2012, 12:46
:maddriver::clap::hbd::go::jump::wave:

Just checking back here after a peek at banana forums: 277 viewing!

Doc
Sep-28-2012, 13:29
I bet you want that railgun . Hehe

ATAG_Deacon
Sep-28-2012, 13:42
Has anyone tried the new patch yet?

Any reports?

ChiefRedCloud
Sep-28-2012, 13:42
Ok guys .... do not make me get whinny again ..... if this is the official "LET'S PATCH UP" thread then let's have a link on "HOW" it should be done ofr those less smart .... I.E. ME :recon:

Oersted
Sep-28-2012, 16:26
If anybody would like to post patch mirrors that would be great!

ATAG_NakedSquirrel
Sep-28-2012, 18:32
- Exorcised ghost planes;


1001

Wolf
Sep-28-2012, 19:02
If anybody would like to post patch mirrors that would be great!

Here are as many mirrors I could find at short notice.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=mirrors&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=USxmUJeLGoW9iAfMpYHoDw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=672#biv=i|9;d|VUU9cqEJ9cA9_M:

turkish
Sep-28-2012, 22:12
Here are as many mirrors I could find at short notice.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=mirrors&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=USxmUJeLGoW9iAfMpYHoDw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=672#biv=i|9;d|VUU9cqEJ9cA9_M:

HaHa!

ATAG_Bliss
Sep-29-2012, 04:51
Gents,

So how is the patch. I'm still in Hawaii until the middle of next week. Hoping I can fly some the following weekend. If someone would be so kind to give me the good and bad of it that would be great!

And really pushing it: How about a video? :recon:

ATAG_Deacon
Sep-29-2012, 06:40
Gents,

So how is the patch. I'm still in Hawaii until the middle of next week. Hoping I can fly some the following weekend. If someone would be so kind to give me the good and bad of it that would be great!

And really pushing it: How about a video? :recon:



~S~ Bliss...enjoy Hawaii, this will be here when you get back - but paradise? Not worth rushing home. I flew very briefly last night:

Good:

Spits are faster, but still "feel" like you're pulling a drouge chute
Better fps/graphics
Clouds!

Not good:
Spits take forever to start/warm up
See ships through clouds
NO SLI/CROSSFIRE (which is huge for those of us using triple monitors)

I'm sure others will pitch in with their impressions. As I said, I was only on for a little bit last night.

~S~

Deacon

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-29-2012, 07:11
+1 to Deacon's report.

Also: Spits have difficulty above 18K; engine loses power, splutters, coughs, until you descend lower and engine runs fine again. At high altitude the engine will run smoother if you increase throttle and revs to max, but your engine will soon overheat.

109's still seem to have unrealistic wicked stall & spin. Should only be slight accelerated stall in high speed hard turns which recovers when controls are simply relaxed. Can any Blue fliers confirm this?

Net code still struggling with >40 players. Extremely long queues in logging in, lots of lag and warping. My ping last night was an unusually high 127; it's always in the 38 - 40 range.

ChiefRedCloud
Sep-29-2012, 10:17
Quick question here ..... I tried to patch last night ... i.e. Steam cleansing, Cache cleaning, Drag and drop (patch) but though the game came up ok, it read version 1.05.15950 and, of course, I could not go into the newly patched ATAG server. What should it read for version and what might I have done wrong?

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-29-2012, 10:31
Quick question here ..... I tried to patch last night ... i.e. Steam cleansing, Cache cleaning, Drag and drop (patch) but though the game came up ok, it read version 1.05.15950 and, of course, I could not go into the newly patched ATAG server. What should it read for version and what might I have done wrong?

A couple of things come to mind:

1.) You have to unzip the downloaded patch. I use the free utility 7Zip. You will get two Folders: Parts and Paint Schemes.

2) Copy and paste these two folders into:

C:/Programs(86)/Steam/Steam Apps/Common/IL2 Sturmovik

You should get pop up messages asking if you want to copy and replace the existing files. A lot of folks mistakenly go to the 1C Softclub folder and paste the patch folders in there.

Also, you should delete the existing 1C Softclub/Cache folder (along with the Shaders folder tucked inside) before running the new game version, which allows the game to automatically rebuild the deleted folders immediately upon starting.

Hope this helps!

ChiefRedCloud
Sep-29-2012, 12:47
Got it finally ... I guess it just didn't take the first time ....... But in game (ATAG server) the Blynhiem was qurky for me .... I ran through my normal check list adding the Mixture full forward (only change I know of) and then when warm (oil 40+) I taxied ..... Half way down the runway I was creeping with no chance of lift off. I hit the boost over ride but perhaps too late. FRACK ..... Tried again but this time everything was smooth as silk and lift off was as normal (for me anyway) ..... Got shot down but that's ok .... I took off which was importent to me. Third flight was good also ..... yea I got shot down again .... but hey, they have to have something to shoot at, right?

My friend reminded me that I should have gone to 'single player' first so the game/sim would set up it's 'cache' first. Perhaps this was the querky thing ..... at the moment, I'm flying .....


Then there was this ...... 1002

Dutch
Sep-29-2012, 13:42
So how is the patch?

The patch is fine, as long as you a) can start your engine, and b) always fly below 12,000ft in the Spit II and below 18,000ft in the Ia100oct. More of the same in other words. Give with one hand, take back with another.

The high clouds are back and look pretty, but the landscape seems more blurred and fuzzy than previously. Fluffy cotton wool clouds pop-up and pop-out at random.

In other words, in the last patch the RAF were castrated by inadequate cooling. In this patch they're castrated by fuel modelling issues as altitude increases.

I'd love to be able to say 'I'll stop moaning now', but I can't say that, unfortunately.

Catseye
Sep-29-2012, 16:11
The patch is fine, as long as you a) can start your engine, and b) always fly below 12,000ft in the Spit II and below 18,000ft in the Ia100oct. More of the same in other words. Give with one hand, take back with another.

The high clouds are back and look pretty, but the landscape seems more blurred and fuzzy than previously. Fluffy cotton wool clouds pop-up and pop-out at random.

In other words, in the last patch the RAF were castrated by inadequate cooling. In this patch they're castrated by fuel modelling issues as altitude increases.

I'd love to be able to say 'I'll stop moaning now', but I can't say that, unfortunately.

Well put Dutch!!
I second that emotion. :)

ATAG_Colander
Sep-29-2012, 18:24
What happens at "12,000ft in the Spit II and below 18,000ft in the Ia100oct"?
The 109 starts loosing a LOT of power after reaching 5000Km (+- 16000 ft). It drops from 1.35 ATA to 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, etc. the higher you go after that hight.
To bring the ATA a bit up (i.e. from 0.8 to 0.9) one has to set the prop pitch to bring the revs close to red.

Is that what you experience?

Dutch
Sep-29-2012, 19:08
What happens at "12,000ft in the Spit II and below 18,000ft in the Ia100oct"?

Colander, if you don't fly them, you won't find out. I noticed that Doc was having a go earlier. Thanks Doc!

Both are fine below these heights. At and above these heights, some problem (most likely to do with the new fuel mixture modelling), insists that you increase rpm. Increasing rpm results in additional heat production. So you open rad, producing more drag, producing a reduction in airspeed, producing a reduction in climb. Eventually you give up trying to achieve more height.

It is possible to get the Spit Ia100oct up to 22-23,000ft, but not much more. It is possible to get the 87oct SpitIa up to 29,000ft quite easily. I did it myself today.

The problem appears to only exist in the aircraft with 100 octane fuel. That's if you can get them started in the first place. The starting problem exists in all RAF fighters. Well, it does for me.

ATAG_Colander
Sep-29-2012, 19:19
Colander, if you don't fly them, you won't find out. I noticed that Doc was having a go earlier. Thanks Doc!


Ok, I guess I'll have to try them out but my question was more in the form of, do they have the same behavior as the 109 that sucks at those heights or is something worse?

Dutch
Sep-29-2012, 19:26
do they have the same behavior as the 109 that sucks at those heights or is something worse?

I have no idea. The point is that this problem does not exist in the SpitIa. Only the Spit Ia100oct and the Spit IIa. These are the only aircraft I've got off the ground for a decent try-out so far.

I haven't had a chance to assess the Hurricanes, because I don't want to waste 10 minutes of my life getting the things started, only to be vulched by some tosser on the runway.

Doc
Sep-29-2012, 19:38
...only to be vulched by some tosser on the runway.

heh I spawned in that garage at Hawkinge and I swear it wasn't a half second after that I got black screened by alambash. roflmao But that's the only place that happened to me.

ATAG_Colander
Sep-29-2012, 19:59
Ok, just jumped to Server #1, got my self a Ia and managed to climb up to 21500 (screenshot available if needed).
It does behave like the 109 where, after a certain altitude (5Km) , the higher you go, the less engine power and speed you get.

Now, I'm sure the different engines with different octanes should behave differently in real life but I'm not sure which one should behave better than the other at that altitude so I don't know which spit, should fly better at height.

ATAG_Snapper
Sep-29-2012, 20:22
I have the Air 2 Air Wings of Power 3 Spitfire I/II. These Spits charge up to 26,000 feet ++ with no hiccups at all. Certainly boost drops above FTH (Full Throttle Height) as it's supposed to, the speed indicated (IAS) also decreases as expected due to the thinner air at altitude and how the airspeed gauge works - which we all know. I believe the A2A people have painstakingly done their research, plus, let's face it, it's only one damn plane they're working on at one time so they CAN be ultra precise about detail. But the CoD Spitfire 1a 100 octane and 2a both have coniption fits as they get past 18000 feet which is completely unrealistic for the real aircraft.

Kudos to all those who actually have jumped into the planes and tried 'em for yourself. If only the MG devs, especially Ilya, would do the same!!!! :grrr:

ATAG_Colander
Sep-29-2012, 20:29
Well, I think we can't expect much at altitude with the current engine. They have stated it them selves that the engine has issues after a certain altitude.
What I've noticed is that the physics calculations digress from RL data in a logarithmic curve. That is, the higher you get, the further the error in an exponential way.

To explain better, here's a graph. Imagine the left vertical axis being the real data. The further from the axis, the "more wrong" the result it is:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Log.svg/300px-Log.svg.png

Here you can see that how the error gets worse faster with little more altitude. This would apply to ANY plane in game, not just red planes.

Hope this makes sense.

Note: I'm not attacking anyone or anything, I'm just stating what I've noticed and how it can not be corrected until a new physics engine is written.

Dutch
Sep-29-2012, 20:30
Ok, just jumped to Server #1, got my self a Ia and managed to climb up to 21500 (screenshot available if needed).
It does behave like the 109 where, after a certain altitude (5Km) , the higher you go, the less engine power and speed you get

Good Grief. 'Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?' - (Quote from Aliens).

I already said that the Ia was fine. I got it to 29,000ft.

The SpitIa100oct I could not get beyond 23,000ft without increasing revs to a point whereby the the engine temp climbed too high.

(At this point, Dutch realises that he may have made a mistake in foreswearing all religion, because then blasphemy holds no meaning).

Am I speaking bloody Swahili or something?

Holy Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul, other Mary, Kevin, Patricia and her mate, Sheila.

It's just the 100 octane jobs that have the altitude issue. All of them are difficult to start. Are we getting it yet?

Sorry, that was insulting. But for the love of Mike............

ATAG_Colander
Sep-29-2012, 21:29
Good Grief. 'Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?' - (Quote from Aliens).

I already said that the Ia was fine. I got it to 29,000ft.

The SpitIa100oct I could not get beyond 23,000ft without increasing revs to a point whereby the the engine temp climbed too high.

(At this point, Dutch realises that he may have made a mistake in foreswearing all religion, because then blasphemy holds no meaning).

Am I speaking bloody Swahili or something?

Holy Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul, other Mary, Kevin, Patricia and her mate, Sheila.

It's just the 100 octane jobs that have the altitude issue. All of them are difficult to start. Are we getting it yet?

Sorry, that was insulting. But for the love of Mike............

All of the above:


Ok, I guess I'll have to try them out but my question was more in the form of, do they have the same behavior as the 109 that sucks at those heights or is something worse?

and...


Well, I think we can't expect much at altitude with the current engine. They have stated it them selves that the engine has issues after a certain altitude.
What I've noticed is that the physics calculations digress from RL data in a logarithmic curve. That is, the higher you get, the further the error in an exponential way.

To explain better, here's a graph. Imagine the left vertical axis being the real data. The further from the axis, the "more wrong" the result it is:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Log.svg/300px-Log.svg.png

Here you can see that how the error gets worse faster with little more altitude. This would apply to ANY plane in game, not just red planes.

Hope this makes sense.

Note: I'm not attacking anyone or anything, I'm just stating what I've noticed and how


THAT is what I was testing because:


Now, I'm sure the different engines with different octanes should behave differently in real life but I'm not sure which one should behave better than the other at that altitude so I don't know which spit, should fly better at height.

Dutch
Sep-29-2012, 22:07
Colander, this altitude issue was not in the last patch in either the Spit II or the Spit Ia 100oct. It is in this one.

Both versions, and all the myriad of versions thrust upon us since V1.05 have been possible using the same game engine. This is not a game engine issue. It's the way the mixture modelling has been altered, particularly with regard to the 100octane models, in this patch and this patch alone.

They have made a mistake. It has nothing to do with what 109s or Spits do or don't do within the limits of the game engine. Your graph holds no water for me.

Yesterday, my 100oct engine got hot chasing 109s. Today it doesn't, but I cannot get the altitude to begin with.

What you and Keller don't seem to understand, is that this is not about whether i can shoot down 109s or not. I always have shot down 109s, even when flying a Blenheim as you know from first hand experience.

This is about modelling the aeroplanes as well as can be managed within the game engine, without continually disadvantaging the RAF. Tell me why they couldn't correct the overheating issue without making it impossible to have accurate fuel metering in the auto-rich/auto-lean fuel settings in the 100oct models and I'll start to listen.

Conversely, precisely none of these problems were apparent in v1.05.

Please stop comparing Spits and 109s. This is not the issue.

ATAG_Colander
Sep-29-2012, 22:52
Ok, let me state my point in a different way, hopefully I'll be understood...

What I'm saying is that, the physics engine uses formulas to calculate the FM parameters. These formulas have several variables and, in fact, the more exact the FM to RL the engine is, the more variables are in the formula.

Now, since the formula has to be calculated in realtime for every plane in the game, the engine uses a simplified version. This simplified version is a lot harder to fine tune as if you change one parameter, the other one, that was fine before, now changes.

In other words, what I'm saying is that is not as simple as, for example, change the radiator drag as that could potentially make the plane climb rate to sky rocket.
Another example, the turn radius. Increasing it could mean increasing the lift which could make the plane to be able to reach 40000ft.
Yet another example, the decreasing engine output by 5% could, besides the top speed, make a plane climb only to 50% what it used to.

Add to all that, the curve I mentioned in the previous post and things get very complicated. I can imagine the 1C guy in charge of the FMs "sweating bullets" trying to make the planes behave close to RL with the current physics engine status.

In short, I don't think is as simple as "change this back" as any change could potentially bring undesired effects.

Also, when I was comparing the 109, it wasn't at all to tell the red guys to stop complaining, it was just part of this exercise to try to obtain the most possible data to try to understand what is happening with the game and why they can't seem to get it right. Just like when I suggested the little experiment about diving with the rads open and closed to understand what was happening, and inpart, because of that experiment, it was discovered the radiator drag effect in the spits speed.

I feel too many people is on defensive mode so, I guess I'll keep my thoughts to my self from now on :)

Dutch
Sep-30-2012, 07:08
they can't seem to get it right.

Finally we agree.

Chair1
Sep-30-2012, 10:57
Well I have read all the replays and none of them answered my question.

I have only had time to fly one mission on the ATAG server since installing the new patch. I flew the 109 over the channel . As I gained altitude I flew through clouds. My canopy fogged over or iced over and then the plane lost power until I broke out of the cloud. This happened several times. Once the air speed indicator dropped to the bottom of the gauge put I was still flying but on the edge of a stall. Could this be icing up in the clouds or am I missing something.

Something else I noticed about this flight was the distance from which I saw a bomber formation . I have always had a hard time seeing the planes on the game but it seems that this problem wasn't an issue in this mission . I saw a formation of 4 bombers a long ways away and was able to finally close and kill.

This was at 4AM on Saturday before I had to go to work and I had only been up 20 minutes .:grandpa:

ATAG_JTDawg
Sep-30-2012, 11:10
Hey m8 cloud icing has always been a issue , Also i believe dot distance is better just look at your wingman it looks like a plane now, other hand you can see dots through cloud even ships , In the spits we avoid clouds like a mountain, instant ice an a chuggy mtr till we thaw out , hope that helps

III./ZG76_Saipan
Sep-30-2012, 12:56
how often do we really go that high anyway on these maps? all the action is below 5km anyway. maybe if we get some new maps with some distance.......

Chair1
Oct-01-2012, 09:48
In response to the last two reply's about altitude. I was trying to get to 3k to find the bombers . So I wasn't at any great altitude.
:grandpa

ATAG_JTDawg
Oct-01-2012, 11:27
Hello again , even low clouds will ice you up . being that most of the clouds are 4-6 thousand feet , seems odd, not all clouds have icing conditions but in game every cloud is bad , i assume the german planes see the same thing :thumbsup:

Doc
Oct-01-2012, 11:52
Yes they do.

ATAG_Snapper
Oct-01-2012, 12:25
how often do we really go that high anyway on these maps? all the action is below 5km anyway. maybe if we get some new maps with some distance.......

Well, bomber formations run 12000 - 18000 feet. Escorting 109's (there's always 1, usually 2) are 3000 feet above them. To successfully engage the escort(s) while your mates hit the bombers you need to be at least 2000 feet above THEM.

So, minimum altitude the Spits require is 18K + 3K + 2K = 23K

I agree that most of the action is below 5 Km (15 angels), but there is a separate war going on much, much higher.