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ATAG_Lewis
Mar-18-2016, 16:07
I remember when I first started flight simming and flying the original IL-2...I had a Saitek Cyborg Evo as a backup to my Microsoft Sidewinder 2 and just to try a different stick....Compared to my Sidewinder 2 which was the spring version (Not FFB) the centre tension was very high....It almost felt in a dogfight like I was fighting 2 foes...the enemy and the tension on the joystick...My very first stick was a Logitech Extreme 3D which also suffered from this strong centering issue but at the time I knew no better...I never really found a solution until I got my first Sidewinder 2...and since then haven't really looked back...I sold the Evo and cut up the 3D Pro to make a trim slider...

I struck me that there are a lot of sticks out there which have way too much resistance to be competitive dogfighting joysticks..

Anyway...

I have been flying with a new player recently who has a Warthog...he was snap rolling in hard turns with me when we tested some basic manoeuvres...It occured to me that his issue seemed as if he was having that tough time of trying to find the crucial degree on the stick between snap roll and maximum hard turn which would be a lot harder (IMO) with a stick that had strong resistance....Something that in a dogfight you need to master....I quizzed him about the centre spring tension and he said it was pretty strong...Just the fact that long hours flying would be unbearable with a strong spring I wondered if any other folks have trouble with strong spring tension in dogfights....and have sought any solutions...Since then I have googled this issue with the Warthog and apparently many folks have worked at Mods and solutions to this issue with this particular stick....

Although why on earth knowing that this would be an issue would an expensive stick manufacturer not put in a variable tensioner or provide different strength centre springs to be interchanged for preference, I don't know...After all we are not all the same strength as human beings are we?

My issue is that with any joystick you need some resistance and centering spring...but that if that resistance is too strong then finding accurate positions in stick movement for things like turning would be a whole lot harder the stronger the stick was and not just a matter of preference...Imagine this...Two weight lifters are bench pressing a weight...One has a manageable but heavy weight and the other has no weight at all...A mark is positioned half way up an upright ruler that they have to pass through with their bar...They are asked push up their bars until their bar is level with the mark and hold...In the same way as a weight lifter needs a high energy to move a heavy weight the one with the heavy weight would find it a lot harder to be accurate at the same time as someone who is lifting with no weight...

My point is here that it is harder to be accurate if you have strong resistance in anything and that a joystick is just the same.......A joystick that has a little bit of manageable resistance is a lot more accurate than one that has high resistance in dogfights....Am I correct in that physics?

I wanted to ask the community what they thought?...what is the physics behind this?.....soft spring or strong is better for dogfighting...?

1lokos
Mar-18-2016, 17:51
Although why on earth knowing that this would be an issue would an expensive stick manufacturer not put in a variable tensioner or provide different strength centre springs to be interchanged for preference, I don't know...After all we are not all the same strength as human beings are we?


X-55 come with 4 different springs (http://www.saitek.com/uk/imgs/product/x55/page/Pro-Flight-X-55-Rhino-for-PC-springs.jpg) for exchange, from soft to hard.

VKB new CAM gimbal come with 2 options of CAM (http://i.imgur.com/KSCNasS.jpg) - soft and hard center, and 2 sets of springs with different tension, allow for example have a hard pitch and a soft roll, or vice versa.

Warthog + extension (http://warthog-extensions-by-sahaj.com/) became "soft", due lever effect.

Tm joysticks come with hard springs since end of 90's because follow the jet sim pilots motto: "Hard is realistic"... :dazed:

Moreover different people have different preferences on the matter.

9./JG52 Mindle
Mar-18-2016, 20:17
This is a picture of a Warthog user: note the overdeveloped right arm.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160319/c4056aea26cb8cf16dd82880cb7bc53f.jpg

Kidding, that's not true!

Seriously though, you get used to the WH quite quickly and I find using a sensitivity curve in the axis joystick set up of around 0.80 for elevator and aileron gives good control.

Also gets your bowling arm in shape for the cricket season.

JG27-Gaidin
Mar-18-2016, 20:18
This is actually funny from my stand point. In the original IL2 I ran across a video put out my MysticPuma that involved cutting out the center of a DVD case to stiffen up a X52. I flew that way for 8 to 10 years until the Joystick wore out. When the new stick arrived I found I no longer liked the stiffness of the stick and started flying commando. I now fly without the added tension that the DVD case cut-out added. Not sure if it has anything to do with the different games or if Saitek changed the springs in the X52.

Gaidin

ATAG_Dave
Mar-18-2016, 20:47
I have been flying with a new player recently who has a Warthog...he was snap rolling in hard turns with me when we tested some basic manoeuvres...It occured to me that his issue seemed as if he was having that tough time of trying to find the crucial degree on the stick between snap roll and maximum hard turn which would be a lot harder (IMO) with a stick that had strong resistance....

The stock WH is quite stiff for sure compared to most. But I doubt its the cause of the above for the new player. You very quickly adapt to the strength of the spring (its not THAT hard - its not gonna be a substitute for a workout lol) and the WH is a very accurate stick. Its more likely to be an issue with how he has the non linearity curves set as Mindle suggests (possibly combined with being a new player - no disrespect intended - clod is a hard game to learn). If he is using the excellent T.A.R.G.E.T software he can adjust it there, if not he can do so by adjusting the very counter intuitive and badly named in-game 'sensitivity' setting in the axis menu - the higher the sensitivity figure, the less 'sensitive' the stick will be apart from at the extremes of stick travel.

A lot of people seem to like the WH with an extension which as well as reducing the stiffness through the lever effect must also give greater range of movement of the stick (again because its a longer lever) and so presumably be more precise.

The WH is a great stick - but I still like my MSFFB better :D

1lokos
Mar-18-2016, 20:49
If the second X-52 one is PRO version, in this the spring system is different, with 2 spring concentric.

ATAG_((dB))
Mar-19-2016, 04:56
I made this easy modification with my WT and I fly it with 2 finger.It give me continuous precision for the looooooooooong session in you guys company :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBMBR8M0z2E

Baffin
Mar-19-2016, 08:51
There are a lot of mods available for loosening up a warthog. Since I prefer the stick between my knees, I opted for a four inch (80 mm) extension. It was easy to fashion from PVC pipe and garden hose fittings, and retains good centering tension. The modification is totally external, requiring no disassembly other than the designed screw connections used for initial assembly after unboxing it.

These are also available to buy... :joystick:

ATAG_Highseas
Mar-19-2016, 11:31
The stock WH is quite stiff for sure compared to most. But I doubt its the cause of the above for the new player. You very quickly adapt to the strength of the spring (its not THAT hard - its not gonna be a substitute for a workout lol) and the WH is a very accurate stick. Its more likely to be an issue with how he has the non linearity curves set as Mindle suggests (possibly combined with being a new player - no disrespect intended - clod is a hard game to learn). If he is using the excellent T.A.R.G.E.T software he can adjust it there, if not he can do so by adjusting the very counter intuitive and badly named in-game 'sensitivity' setting in the axis menu - the higher the sensitivity figure, the less 'sensitive' the stick will be apart from at the extremes of stick travel.

A lot of people seem to like the WH with an extension which as well as reducing the stiffness through the lever effect must also give greater range of movement of the stick (again because its a longer lever) and so presumably be more precise.

The WH is a great stick - but I still like my MSFFB better :D



Hehe ! Dont worry ! I don't get offended from input! (yes it is me of whom ATAG_Lewis speaks)

And for sure I need practice in the turns.

It's a hell of a learning curve this game... but man... how much fun ?!


I had a saitex x-52 pro before the warthog which was MILES softer to use.

An extention on the warthog would no doubt help massively for accuracy, but prices are.. erm... the kids need shoes ok... !

I'm going to play around with alternative springs... my aim being to make the stick loose enough for easy of turn, but still retain the centering... which is an absolute must for some of the other games I play.

I will let you know how I get on !

Its possible i guess that I end up right back with it as standard... but i doubt it...

greased up with castrol LM made a significant difference....

but yeah... i still think its on the overly stiff side.

And I too am amazed that there are no officially produced alternative springs. To me its a no brainer... to my mind it really should have at least three alternatives ranging form stock AC10, floppy as hell, and a mid range best of both worlds.

basically i like this stick a LOT. But its not perfect. Not yet.

See you up there chaps !

ATAG_Highseas
Mar-19-2016, 11:36
Oh also... ATAG_Septic offered some advice and he has already done this himself... but wasn't sure on the springs he settled on...

Given that it's not just spring length or wire diameter that govens spring tension it kinda makes sence that I need to start from scratch really...

I'm just copying him... (Cheers Septic!)

Vadr
Mar-19-2016, 21:41
I'm with Mindle & Dave. If I was snap-rolling out of hard turns, I'd look first at linearity curves, not spring tension. I fly a Warthog and I love it, especially the stiffness, which I think adds precision, but I'm an old hand (20+ years) at this stuff and understand that everyone has different preferences.

I'd go down the linearity curve path for a while before I started modding my stick.

My 2 pfennings, YMMV. Best of luck and welcome to the game.

ATAG_Highseas
Mar-21-2016, 09:51
I'm with Mindle & Dave. If I was snap-rolling out of hard turns, I'd look first at linearity curves, not spring tension. I fly a Warthog and I love it, especially the stiffness, which I think adds precision, but I'm an old hand (20+ years) at this stuff and understand that everyone has different preferences.

I'd go down the linearity curve path for a while before I started modding my stick.

My 2 pfennings, YMMV. Best of luck and welcome to the game.

Tell you what does help rather a lot..... putting the stick dead centre of the monitor rather than out on the right hand side. (As in where its supposed to be in the plane). Still gonna mess with the springs mind. It's too stiff for my liking, not by masses... but enough to bother me.

I defeninately take the general point none the less. I definatley need to put a few more hours practice in... basically figure out what these planes are "supposed" to be capable of and what they are not supposed to eba able to achieve.

Basically figure out where the limits are regards stable turning.

Cheers chaps!

ATAG_Lewis
Mar-21-2016, 13:55
As you go into a hard turn you need to aileron over and then pull back....You need to be able to find the sweet spot quickly in a fight...That only comes with practice....Experienced players will get close to that point immediately and then pull slightly harder to maximise the turn and that is when the aircraft will threaten to snap roll...You need to be aware that that is what the aircraft will do and be ready to correct that snap roll with the minimum amount of aileron whilst still keeping hard turn...That's where a lighter joystick will help...

Its all about getting to that sweet spot as fast as you can and holding it...without snap rolling...

In a knife fight you need to be able to do this in both left and right hard turns...

You will learn a lot faster if you get involved with the fighters more often....You will be forced over and over to get use to it....I would suggest for a few days just finding the enemy and going for a fight irrelevant of advantage or disadvantage...That's what I did in the early days...Get as much dogfighting experience as you can and don't worry about getting tagged...You will be a lot better pilot/player for that and spawning in time and again is a luxury the real pilots didn't get...

There are some moves I did out of pure desperation in those first few weeks that stay with me today....because they worked then and still do...

ATAG_Highseas
Mar-23-2016, 10:38
Mini update.

There seem to be two approaches to lightening this stick (assuming like me you actually want to).

One is to uprate the four lower springs with somthing a bit "sproingier" leaving the big spring as is and put it back together, the other is to remove the huge spring entirely and move the four springs from below to above the "slidey uppey-downey bit" inside the base of the stick.

Having now played around with a few sets of springs in both configurations I am very close to achieving what I was after.... lightest possible stick that still accurately self centres.

When I started this I was hoping that I would be able to specify a suitable spring for anyone wanting to try this out, so they could just order, fit and move on... but I've since come to the conclusion that it's only really going to work as a trial and error type affair. The differences between springs that look and feel very similar can be pretty large.

For my part I have ditched the massive sporing and installed different, "sproingier" springs up top slightly shorter as it goes, but clearly with a hirder spring rate. It's only just self centering now so I intend to shim it up with some plain washers between the underside top plate and the top of the spring until it centers reliabley.

I'm obviously keeing the main spring and the original four smaller springs just in case my solution doesn't work indefinitly, though I see no particular reason why it wont.... either way I can put it back to stock in minutes should I want to... which after all at that price makes a lot of sence.

Then I'm going to practice flying more... a lot more !

See you up there...

Vlerkies
Mar-23-2016, 12:03
Mini update.

There seem to be two approaches to lightening this stick (assuming like me you actually want to).

One is to uprate the four lower springs with somthing a bit "sproingier" leaving the big spring as is and put it back together, the other is to remove the huge spring entirely and move the four springs from below to above the "slidey uppey-downey bit" inside the base of the stick.

Having now played around with a few sets of springs in both configurations I am very close to achieving what I was after.... lightest possible stick that still accurately self centres.

When I started this I was hoping that I would be able to specify a suitable spring for anyone wanting to try this out, so they could just order, fit and move on... but I've since come to the conclusion that it's only really going to work as a trial and error type affair. The differences between springs that look and feel very similar can be pretty large.

For my part I have ditched the massive sporing and installed different, "sproingier" springs up top slightly shorter as it goes, but clearly with a hirder spring rate. It's only just self centering now so I intend to shim it up with some plain washers between the underside top plate and the top of the spring until it centers reliabley.

I'm obviously keeing the main spring and the original four smaller springs just in case my solution doesn't work indefinitly, though I see no particular reason why it wont.... either way I can put it back to stock in minutes should I want to... which after all at that price makes a lot of sence.

Then I'm going to practice flying more... a lot more !

See you up there...
Alternatively just have a new custom center spring made up.
Heres mine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex5VZz5T3r0

ATAG_Highseas
Mar-23-2016, 14:24
Alternatively just have a new custom center spring made up.
Heres mine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex5VZz5T3r0

Ohhh... where from? what spring rate etc! Tell me !!


The only downside to my springs on top version is that it gets a bit tight at the extream outer edges... hardly noticable, and easy to calibrate out. But you could say not 100% perfection.

but using it....

it's night a day.

may well be prefence to some degree... but i just went fron cant turn for toffee to look at me swooping.

WAY easier.

No way im going back to stock now.

ATAG_((dB))
Mar-24-2016, 01:45
Ohhh... where from? what spring rate etc! Tell me !!





LOL this thread posting number 7

Vlerkies
Mar-24-2016, 02:08
Ohhh... where from? what spring rate etc! Tell me !
I just took Hog Joystick and went to a local engineering shop that does this stuff and manufactures springs and explained to the guy what I was looking to accomplish with a spring mod.
I explained the stiffness on the center and let him test for himself. Then dismantled the thing on the counter and showed him the springs.
Best to target someone with a grey beard when trying to relay this information ;)

They measured up the center spring and I went back the next day to pick up 4 custom made springs to different tensions.
They can manipulate the tension by the number of coils and the material thickness/strength.

NOTE: one key consideration is that because the spring is in a confined space, stress to the person doing the work that the custom spring when 'compressed' must not have a greater height than the stock spring when compressed.
If it does it will restrict the stick movement through the full axis. I figured this out afterwards only.

It's not quite 100%, but pretty darn close to it for me. I need to actually stiffen up the 4 smaller springs a little, but haven't bothered yet. The 4 small springs work against the main one. The stick (without any springs) is front heavy by design, so with my custom main spring, it sometimes centers leaning a little forward. This could easily be fixed with a tension up of the 4 smaller springs. It just doesn't bother me enough (if at all) to do it.

I see you live in the UK. I have it on good authority that pretty much anything can be fabricated there in a shed in the backyard by old men in blue coats, so you should not struggle to get a few springs made up to test.
:)

I did try the other quick mods mentioned and they were not to my liking at all.

Vlerkies
Mar-24-2016, 02:18
LOL this thread posting number 7

Different mod, and that makes it pretty floppy.

ATAG_((dB))
Mar-24-2016, 02:57
Not at all if you ad the suggest washer. In the same time I never tried your's. I did that one since that was well explain, easy to do and that it works.

Vlerkies
Mar-24-2016, 03:00
Each to their own. I went through that process.

:salute:

ATAG_Highseas
Apr-20-2016, 09:04
Just to finish this one...

Been flying without the main spring and with my trial and error sourced springs on top of the slidey plate for a while. Works well.

Got a parcel today from my American niece. A packet of the Hillman Group springs made in Michigan.

I put the main spring back in with those under the slidey plate in place of the stock ones.

It's a tiny bit stiffer than I have had these past couple of months but noticeably smoother. Presumably because that main spring gives constant load around the top of the slidey plate that four individual springs up top can't acheive.

Centres perfectly too.

Still WAY softer than standard. In short it now feels great.

There we go.... We have closure....

FS~Fenice_1965
Apr-20-2016, 10:43
I remember when I first started flight simming and flying the original IL-2...I had a Saitek Cyborg Evo as a backup to my Microsoft Sidewinder 2 and just to try a different stick....Compared to my Sidewinder 2 which was the spring version (Not FFB) the centre tension was very high....It almost felt in a dogfight like I was fighting 2 foes...the enemy and the tension on the joystick...My very first stick was a Logitech Extreme 3D which also suffered from this strong centering issue but at the time I knew no better...I never really found a solution until I got my first Sidewinder 2...and since then haven't really looked back...I sold the Evo and cut up the 3D Pro to make a trim slider...

I struck me that there are a lot of sticks out there which have way too much resistance to be competitive dogfighting joysticks..

Anyway...

I have been flying with a new player recently who has a Warthog...he was snap rolling in hard turns with me when we tested some basic manoeuvres...It occured to me that his issue seemed as if he was having that tough time of trying to find the crucial degree on the stick between snap roll and maximum hard turn which would be a lot harder (IMO) with a stick that had strong resistance....Something that in a dogfight you need to master....I quizzed him about the centre spring tension and he said it was pretty strong...Just the fact that long hours flying would be unbearable with a strong spring I wondered if any other folks have trouble with strong spring tension in dogfights....and have sought any solutions...Since then I have googled this issue with the Warthog and apparently many folks have worked at Mods and solutions to this issue with this particular stick....

Although why on earth knowing that this would be an issue would an expensive stick manufacturer not put in a variable tensioner or provide different strength centre springs to be interchanged for preference, I don't know...After all we are not all the same strength as human beings are we?

My issue is that with any joystick you need some resistance and centering spring...but that if that resistance is too strong then finding accurate positions in stick movement for things like turning would be a whole lot harder the stronger the stick was and not just a matter of preference...Imagine this...Two weight lifters are bench pressing a weight...One has a manageable but heavy weight and the other has no weight at all...A mark is positioned half way up an upright ruler that they have to pass through with their bar...They are asked push up their bars until their bar is level with the mark and hold...In the same way as a weight lifter needs a high energy to move a heavy weight the one with the heavy weight would find it a lot harder to be accurate at the same time as someone who is lifting with no weight...

My point is here that it is harder to be accurate if you have strong resistance in anything and that a joystick is just the same.......A joystick that has a little bit of manageable resistance is a lot more accurate than one that has high resistance in dogfights....Am I correct in that physics?

I wanted to ask the community what they thought?...what is the physics behind this?.....soft spring or strong is better for dogfighting...?

Hi Lew !
I have the Warthog and had a lot of other joysticks of opposite approach (CH and Saitek X52 for instance). In my opinion, flying prop planes the Warthog is too much stiff. The precision of the hall sensors and the general building quality of the stick make it a better choice than other joystick I had, but the stiffness is a limit to accurate manouvers in many cases.
Recently I bought a 7,5 cm extension and I can say that with that mod it has become the best stick I can imagine. I found a night and day difference with Battle of Stalingrad where I found a lot easier to counteract the notorious "woobling" of the planes and a lot easier to get accurate shots. In my opinion the stiffness contrasts accuracy when you have to make fast moves (like it happens more - in my opinion - using prop planes than jets).

ATAG_Lewis
Apr-20-2016, 14:04
Good to see you Fen....my old friend...~S~

FS~Fenice_1965
Apr-20-2016, 16:09
~S~ my friend,
I am always around even if I do not play so much.:grandpa
Always a pleasure to stay in touch with such a passionate community

ATAG_Highseas
Apr-22-2016, 06:13
In my opinion, flying prop planes the Warthog is too much stiff.

Totally agree.

The only way I have been able to use this stick to it's full potential was to mess about changing springs untill I could get the stick as light as possible such that it can still (only just) centre itself.

Out of the box it's just a constant fight. Not sure about for jets, presumably perfect for the A10, (I have no idea...) ... but I totally agree in respect of flying single prop '40s planes in this particular sim.

I looked at the extentions since that makes a lot of sence technically but I just can't justify £60 on a threaded tube and I don't really want the stick any higher on my desk than it already is.

The absolute cheapest option as far as all my many versions of messing about goes is actually to leave it stock with the main spring in, but add two plain washers beneath each of the small lower springs. (yes... I changed it AGAIN already from my previous post above). And I may even change back to one of my previous "cures". I have many options now !

Whichever method... for me its got to be as light as possible... which fairly oviously is 'just about' able to recentre.

Not gonna post any more on this topic...

If anyone want's any advice or further info on the multitude of options I've tried feel free to PM me. Always happy to share.

ATAG_Lewis
Apr-22-2016, 12:08
Sounds good....The MSFFB2 actually is different centre strength depending on how fast you are travelling because it is electric motors inside that move it and keep it straight....So the more airflow over the control surfaces and the more input you need to move them...which is probably more realistic....The centring strength is never that strong and still easily manageable when flying full tilt...

As for not posting on this thread...well I'd still like to hear how you get on if you settle on anything in the future...Its always good as some folks do follow technical threads like this without ever posting...I don't even have the stick and its been a good read so far...lol

9./JG52 Mindle
Apr-27-2016, 18:03
I hope I remember how this lot goes back together

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160427/e09b691781c25c4a950300786fbca858.jpg

9./JG52 Mindle
Apr-28-2016, 14:45
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/6848d7562671594f698526b860a53750.jpg

Yup, back better than ever!

£3 of silicone bearing grease and some fine wet n dry paper and some patience.

'Sticktion' cured!

ATAG_Highseas
Apr-28-2016, 16:33
£4 bag of M6 shims...

LM grease.

(yes I switched it all out again again again !! )

My tinkering here is done. Very happy now.

kirk66
May-14-2016, 12:38
This is a fascinating discussion - especially for someone new to the PC sim/gaming world (but experienced in real planes - including dogfighting in jets - and in military fighter sims). Some background - I'm not flying CLOD yet (waiting to build up a suitable PC to do it justice) but have been flying IL-2 for a while, and play around with sims like Condor, etc. My flying experience includes a career in the USAF as an F-4E WSO, and a second (current) career as a flight sim test engineer for a large US aerospace company, working on a variety of fighter sims. I also fly and race my own glider (LS6-b) and tow gliders in a Pawnee and Supercub. I've been lucky enough to get stick time in a variety of jets (T-33, 37, 38, F-4, F-16, F-104, A-4) and some piston warbirds (Stearman, T-6, T-28B). Yes, I'm lucky, but I work at it! Bottom line, I think I have a bit of experience to compare flying a sim with flying a real plane.

What is most interesting is the comments about wanting a light stick. I currently fly IL2 with a CH setup, and have used a Logitech Extreme Pro, and find them both to be WAY TOO LIGHT in feel. And watching some of the videos of sims, it seems many are flying the planes like video games, with little regard to G-onset and the effect of high G loads on both the plane and the pilot! While this is undoubtedly fun, and probably the way to win fights in the sim environment, it is TOTALLY UNREALISTIC!

Some numbers off the top of my head (specifics can be found online). For fighters, around 5 - 7 lbs/G was regarded as the optimum stick force needed for WW2 fighters; and is still about the same for jets today (the F-15 requires about that, up to 35 lbs pull for max G). What that means is that to pull hard into a 6 G turn, you need to pull with 30 to 42 lbs of force. Some planes were known for light elevators (Spitfire comes to mind) while some had really heavy elevators (P-51Ds) - and of course, in the days before boosted controls, this could increase with airspeed to the point where both hands were needed to maneuver the plane.

And there is a really good reason for this: It keeps you from breaking the plane or G-Locking yourself! BTDT and it isn't fun at all - 9Gs not only hurt, but if you pass out, you are now an easy target for your opponent. And if you break your plane...

What is also missing is just how physically demanding a dogfight is! 5 - 10 minutes at 5 Gs and you are exhausted. If you carefully read WW2 combat reports (or even look carefully at gun camera footage) you can find examples of pilots who just quit trying after a long dogfight and got shot flying straight and level. Because that feeling of letting off the G's is wonderful, and was probably the last thing they felt...

Ideally, you would have light ailerons at all speeds (combined with a fast roll rate - think FW-190) combined with "comfortable" elevators that don't force you to use both hands (P-47) but stiffen up a bit at speed, and a responsive but heavy rudder (since you are using your strong leg muscles) to control any yaw due to torque or use of ailerons and keep the ball centered for accurate shooting. Controls that become impossible to move at high speeds seriously affected tactics and often meant the difference between winning and losing a fight; examples are the aileron problems with early Spitfires or the superiority of the P-38's elevator compared to the Bf-109 when pulling out of a dive at high speed and low altitude.

Of course, since we are limited to simple joysticks, compromises need to be made. It would be nice if someone came out with a new FFB stick that stiffened up at speed realistically, that combined with a longer stick would go a long way towards making these great sims more representative of the real thing. Meanwhile, I'll probably have to spring for a TM (with an extension) ;^).

So - if you are big into twitch gaming and love those long violent dogfights - go for it! But don't kid yourself about how realistic it is... One pass, shoot, break, bug out, regroup - that's what kept Hartman, Marseille, Bong etc alive so long.

Cheers, and looking forward to the steep learning curve when i finally get my Clod working!

Check 6 - Vulture

ATAG_Lewis
May-14-2016, 15:36
Welcome to the community and forums kirk66 ...~S~

I couldn't fail to disagree with you less....The only thing I would say is that we are a small community here and CLOD is a massively hard sim to learn and play let alone being competitive...That means that we need to try at least to get new players upto speed and competitve sooner rather than later simply because we want to see a thriving and growing community and having successes sooner for them...For any new player they will be flying against vets who have the best equipment and a lot tuned to being competitive and non-realistic just in the same manner that a 360 rotatable cockpit would be more realistic but not as competitive..That is just my opinion...Its less realism for the hopeful benefit of a bigger community...VR is the next big thing coming our way and my feeling is also that they will be great fun and more realistic but until they get the pixel amount the same as a 50'' monitor you will not see enemy contacts as soon as the guy with the 50 incher screen...Unfortunately VR players will be eaten alive for a while....

I hope you get your PC soon so that you can join us...I think you have a lot of experience and it would be really good to see you in our humble community....~S~

Anyway....

Checkout the 'Beginners Guide'...for info and tips...It will save you a heap of time in getting up to scratch.....and its a really fun learning curve anyway..

Beginners Guide Link Here (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5058&p=52711)

Windows Management Guide (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3273)

Also try youtube for startup procedures on all the aircraft...

I recommend getting in the online server as soon as you can take off if that's ultimately where you'd like to fly...I flew single player for 30 minutes before I took the plunge...The ATAG online server is a great environment to learn and there's not really any damage you can do in there as a new player.....It is also mission based just with real players trying to foil your objectives...If you are concerned then pick an airstrip furthest from the front line (there always is one or two on every map) and get some alt before you go hunting...You'll get tagged a lot but there are tricks you learn out of pure desperation in those first few weeks that you'll be able to use later...I know cos I still use the same tricks I learned then too because they work...and never underestimate the stall to get you out of a tight fix...That sometimes works too...TeamSpeak is optional but you'll learn a whole lot faster with it even if you say very little....


Here are a few fun, helpful and interesting links amongst these forums

Most Watched CLOD Videos (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10582&p=137316)

Easy Allied CEM for New Players (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9111&p=100118#post100118)

Joystick and Hardware Thread (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7000)

ATAG Forum Age Poll Results (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7744&highlight=poll)

Nvidea Control Panel Settings (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6534&highlight=control+panel)

Downloads (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/Downloads.php)

Contact Spotting Test (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13915&highlight=spotting+contact)

and....Don't forget to keep up with the latest on the TeamFusion new aircraft and patch news...You could well be AMAZED!

TeamFusion Facebook Updates (https://www.facebook.com/teamfusionmod?fref=ts)


Any questions then you've come to the right place....

Good to have you with us buddy...and remember its all about the Fun!!!

...Lew...

ATAG_Highseas
May-15-2016, 05:16
I think in reality the main problem (I have) with the Thrustmaster is its mechanism.which is far from smooth in operation. It probably varies unit to unit... But its not the best mechanism for this application.

The added load of the springs on that mechanism causes it to stick through its motion. Very very hard to give smooth input. Lightening the load from the springs goes a long way to resolve this.

And that makes it useable.

As said above from a real pilot high g inputs in a combat plane requires significant strength... (I haven't done this by the way in any plane at all).

But I also imagine that those inputs not juddery and stickey giving minor input to full roll input in one judder. !

If they were that plane would be grounded for sure!

I just changed the stick about so that I could use it. That meant lightening it up as much as I could!


Anyhoooo

Welcome aboard!

Let's play!

9./JG52 Mindle
May-15-2016, 06:21
For me, the strong spring load of the warthog gives an illusion of realism compared to other sticks I owned previously, which were very light.
The only issue I had with the warthog was how it tends to become sticky in its motion over time. That has been cured by greasing the four pillars the spring plate slides on with some decent thick silicone bearing grease (Mylokote 44 medium) and only cost a few English Dollars.
I also while I was there decided to take the belt and braces approach and (carefully) sanded away the little seams and ridges on the plastic gimbal and cup and the pivot pins etc that were left over from the manufacturing process (YouTube video on method), gave them a good greasing and now it is nice and strong with spring resistance (perhaps slightly lighter than factory) but it's movement is smooth again, like it should be.

ATAG_Highseas
May-15-2016, 06:38
Here's a question....

What are you chaps using as sensitivity settings in game for your various axis?

I have always had mine all set to 0. Which I have got used to. Or at least I think I have haha!

ATAG_Dave
May-15-2016, 07:54
What are you chaps using as sensitivity settings in game for your various axis?

I have always had mine all set to 0. Which I have got used to. Or at least I think I have haha!

Just in case you dont know (its a confusing set up in Clod) setting zero sensitivity in game for any given axis means you are setting it at maximum 'sensitivity' . Its not infact a sensitivity setting anyway - its a nonlinearity setting, its just badly named.

I would suggest if you have yours set to zero (esp in pitch) you are making life very hard for yourself. Though I know you use the warthog so it depends on how you have that set - ie if you use the excellent TARGET software you can set your non-linearity curvesup there instead which will interact with the games settings....

9./JG52 Mindle
May-15-2016, 08:23
Here's a question....

What are you chaps using as sensitivity settings in game for your various axis?

I have always had mine all set to 0. Which I have got used to. Or at least I think I have haha!

0.75 for both stick axis and 1.00 rudder pedals

vranac
May-15-2016, 10:04
0.75 for both stick axis and 1.00 rudder pedals

Are you really using 0.75 for joystick axis? On a proper and functional joystick no filters should be used. Linearity is very important property of a good joystick.
I can understand about pedals, our legs are less sensitive than hands.

For any newcomer, don't use any filters if your joystick is working properly, aircraft controls were linear in those times.

9./JG52 Mindle
May-15-2016, 10:16
Yup. Move between 0.00 and 0.75. Get used to any setting. Just like the feel of having more throw around the centre.

kirk66
May-15-2016, 11:53
[QUOTE=ATAG_Lewis;229633][FONT=Arial Black] Welcome to the community and forums kirk66 ...~S~

I couldn't fail to disagree with you less....The only thing I would say is that we are a small community here and CLOD is a massively hard sim to learn and play let alone being competitive...That means that we need to try at least to get new players upto speed and competitve sooner rather than later simply because we want to see a thriving and growing community and having successes sooner for them...For any new player they will be flying against vets who have the best equipment and a lot tuned to being competitive and non-realistic just in the same manner that a 360 rotatable cockpit would be more realistic but not as competitive..That is just my opinion...Its less realism for the hopeful benefit of a bigger community...VR is the next big thing coming our way and my feeling is also that they will be great fun and more realistic but until they get the pixel amount the same as a 50'' monitor you will not see enemy contacts as soon as the guy with the 50 incher screen...Unfortunately VR players will be eaten alive for a while....


Lew, thanks for the response - I will definitely use the info as I get spun up in the game! There is so much information to absorb (and I admit I'm a WW2 buff...) I'm having fun digging in. And I'm totally impressed by the community!

And please don't misunderstand me - whatever settings a person uses is great if that makes the game better for them; it's just that if you have never experienced actual air combat (training only, fortunately, for me!) it's hard to grasp just how physical and tiring it is! Games make an attempt to simulate that with G greyouts, etc but it really does not compare to the real thing.

That being said, I'm blown away by the complexity and realism that CloD has - makes what we use in the military look like an old Atari game!

Quick war story about joysticks and I'll be off - one of the sims I work on is a medium fidelity sim for a popular fighter bomber. While the full-up trainers have full hi-res domes and control loaders (think ultimate force feedback) and are so big that they have their own buildings, this trainer is located in the squadron and is pretty similar to a high end PC setup: touch screens, a monitor for the view out front (with HUD) and one for the instruments, and a simple stick with a fairly light spring but no feedback (but the actual HOTAS, of course). Now, I fly that thing everyday as part of my job, and can fly it pretty good, but when I watch actual aircrew try to fly it, they are basically maxing out the control inputs as they try to fly the trainer - because the actual jet requires a lot more force and motion. And it definitely affects the way they fly in the trainer (and causes a lot of them to not like it much, unfortunately...).

Finally, one thing about light sticks - if it is easy to get full deflections, you will find that you will lose energy faster than someone who uses less control deflection - think flapping speedbrakes. Look at the Bf-109 on the home page, to get that much rudder deflection at any combat speed would require enormous leg strength, and combined with the elevator defection, that '109 is about to spin! Which may be the intent, of course ;^)

Anyway, sorry if I come off as a know-it-all, not my intent, just throwing out some ideas. I fully expect to get my ass waxed when I finally get online.

So - Thanks again, hope to meet you online soon. Check six - I'll be checking mine!

ATAG_Highseas
May-15-2016, 12:17
Anyway, sorry if I come off as a know-it-all, not my intent, just throwing out some ideas. I fully expect to get my ass waxed when I finally get online.





Nah ! dont be !!

its all interesting stuff.

Glad you are impressed with the game... I am too... month three in this for me... and yes... the community is truely superb !

See you up there !

1lokos
May-15-2016, 13:27
Finally, one thing about light sticks - if it is easy to get full deflections, you will find that you will lose energy faster than someone who uses less control deflection - think flapping speedbrakes. Look at the Bf-109 on the home page, to get that much rudder deflection at any combat speed would require enormous leg strength, and combined with the elevator defection, that '109 is about to spin! Which may be the intent, of course ;^)

Kir66,

Nice writeup, TY.

Maybe this "next gen" joystick/pedal gimbal/center mechanism (that is not done be Thrustmaster, CH or other big brand), as use CAM system can approach more of this control, since the force at end of stick deflections increase due CAM design. VKB, BAUR, Slaw, MFG Simuza.

http://avia-sim.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=6399
http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_01_2016/post-842-0-56081300-1454265614.jpg
http://www.gostratojet.com/Marketing/Gimbal_Final_1.jpg

kirk66
May-17-2016, 12:52
One more quick question about how the Clod (and IL-2) sim interprets joystick motion: Is it purely stick deflection = control surface deflection, adjusted for any sensitivity curves and deadband settings?

That would be OK for fully powered controls (jet fighters), but how does the sim model effects such as the stiffening of ailerons at high speed? From what I've read, the early fabric-covered ailerons on Spit I/IIs were almost solid at speed, making it extremely hard to roll while diving. Does the CloD flight model reduce the roll effectiveness at high speed regardless of control deflection?

Kirk66

Vadr
May-17-2016, 13:02
That would be OK for fully powered controls (jet fighters), but how does the sim model effects such as the stiffening of ailerons at high speed? From what I've read, the early fabric-covered ailerons on Spit I/IIs were almost solid at speed, making it extremely hard to roll while diving. Does the CloD flight model reduce the roll effectiveness at high speed regardless of control deflection?


Can't tell you about the Spits (I don't fly 'em) but the 109 ailerons become much less effective at higher speeds. So does the elevator. This is historically accurate.

ATAG_((dB))
May-17-2016, 17:59
One more quick question about how the Clod (and IL-2) sim interprets joystick motion: Is it purely stick deflection = control surface deflection, adjusted for any sensitivity curves and deadband settings?

That would be OK for fully powered controls (jet fighters), but how does the sim model effects such as the stiffening of ailerons at high speed? From what I've read, the early fabric-covered ailerons on Spit I/IIs were almost solid at speed, making it extremely hard to roll while diving. Does the CloD flight model reduce the roll effectiveness at high speed regardless of control deflection?

Kirk66

Yes

1lokos
May-17-2016, 18:22
Quote Originally Posted by kirk66 View Post
One more quick question about how the Clod (and IL-2) sim interprets joystick motion: Is it purely stick deflection = control surface deflection, adjusted for any sensitivity curves and deadband settings?

That would be OK for fully powered controls (jet fighters), but how does the sim model effects such as the stiffening of ailerons at high speed? From what I've read, the early fabric-covered ailerons on Spit I/IIs were almost solid at speed, making it extremely hard to roll while diving. Does the CloD flight model reduce the roll effectiveness at high speed regardless of control deflection?

Kirk66

In Oleg's IL-2's the relation between joystick movement and game movement is "dampened", maybe to simulate G, dont know...

In 1CGS IL-2 is 1:1 - if you fly some time in this then change for CloD you will fell the planes there "heavy" in controls...