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View Full Version : Why are you Blenheim pilots scraping the ground?



ATAG_Bliss
Oct-07-2012, 15:24
Just like the title says. Why are you guys flying on the deck? No one can escort you down there. You make yourselves easy pickings for 109s/110s etc. And if you take critical damage you can't coast anywhere. Not to mention the fact that you are skimming the tops of all the flak batteries. It's no wonder I see "Blenheim flown buy xxx has been shot down by flak xxx" all the time.

Wouldn't you prefer to have a spitfire/hurricane escort and be at altitude? Wouldn't you prefer to level bomb? I understand that the level bombing maybe be screwed up, just as it is for most of the axis heavies. But can't you get to target, slow down, nose over, point your plane straight down at the target, release bombs, and pull right back up (aka short dive bomb)? I used to do this with old Il2 with anything from B29s to Beaufighters. I would only lose around 1000k of height and had around a 75% success rate just from aiming from the gun sight.

Call me crazy, but I only see disadvantages of flying on the deck. Going after ships, I completely understand. Going after land based objectives and not flying at an escort altitude to get some help, I really don't get.

Someone please let me know why all the Blenheims are flying this way? Will the short dive bomb not work?

ATAG_Colander
Oct-07-2012, 15:37
I think they are hoping for the dogfights to be higher so they can sneak under them.

Dutch
Oct-07-2012, 15:49
Oooh, loadsa reasons.

1) It's hard for nasties to see you against the ground clutter, and they're usually much higher so you can avoid being spotted.
2) The usual 'boom and zoom' fighter tactic often puts 'em in the drink/side of a hill.
3) Bombing from altitude is problematic, as the a/c has no leveller or autopilot for use while you use the sight and the lack of 6DOF in the bomb-aimer's chair means you can't see the target til you're on top of it.
4) It's historically accurate. The Blenny crews were the forerunners of the low level Mossie crews.
5) When skip bombing, why bother going up? You only have to come down again.
6) Personally it's also a hangover from using the white bands on the nose of a Sturmovik. When the target disappears below the nose, drop bombs. Boom. Dead target.
7) It's bloody good fun.

I'm sure some of the newer blokes will have other reasons of their own.

:)

ATAG_Bliss
Oct-07-2012, 16:19
Oooh, loadsa reasons.

1) It's hard for nasties to see you against the ground clutter, and they're usually much higher so you can avoid being spotted.
2) The usual 'boom and zoom' fighter tactic often puts 'em in the drink/side of a hill.
3) Bombing from altitude is problematic, as the a/c has no leveller or autopilot for use while you use the sight and the lack of 6DOF in the bomb-aimer's chair means you can't see the target til you're on top of it.
4) It's historically accurate. The Blenny crews were the forerunners of the low level Mossie crews.
5) When skip bombing, why bother going up? You only have to come down again.
6) Personally it's also a hangover from using the white bands on the nose of a Sturmovik. When the target disappears below the nose, drop bombs. Boom. Dead target.
7) It's bloody good fun.

I'm sure some of the newer blokes will have other reasons of their own.

:)

1.) But we don't have to see you - the radar will tell us where you're at.
2.) I could see this happening, but not often to a veteran pilot
3.) Can't you do a shallow dive bomb as I suggested?
4.) Got it
5.) Understand
6.) Now just think if you pointed the gun site at a target and did the same thing?
7.) Ok

Just figured you'd want more of an escort. I just see Blennys getting blown up waay more often than the Axis counter parts. And the low level / unescorted stuff is the reason IMO. Only reason for this thread.

Dutch
Oct-07-2012, 16:31
Just figured you'd want more of an escort. And the low level / unescorted stuff is the reason IMO. Only reason for this thread.

Aye. When the boot is on the other foot, like today when I was escorting the Blenny boys in a Spit, I felt really nervous being down that low, as you'd expect. Even at 5000ft, it's easy to lose sight of the Blenny boys when you're checking the skies for nasties, and of course if you get bounced you're in a very low energy state to be able to fend them off very well.

Dive bombing is something I've not done seriously since flying Dauntless' in IL2, so someone else'll have to answer that one. I think Tonka does a bit, if memory serves......

ATAG_Bliss
Oct-07-2012, 18:28
Aye. When the boot is on the other foot, like today when I was escorting the Blenny boys in a Spit, I felt really nervous being down that low, as you'd expect. Even at 5000ft, it's easy to lose sight of the Blenny boys when you're checking the skies for nasties, and of course if you get bounced you're in a very low energy state to be able to fend them off very well.

Dive bombing is something I've not done seriously since flying Dauntless' in IL2, so someone else'll have to answer that one. I think Tonka does a bit, if memory serves......

Well I'm a terrible Dive bomber :D But what I was suggesting was sort of a roll over and drop method. That way you're still at altitude, can be escorted, and also still be able to hit the target. I've had much success doing this, only dropping a few thousand feet of height in the process, all by using the gun sight as my bomb sight. I think it's worth a try anyways. But don't get me wrong, if I'm gonna be skip bombing some ships, I'm not traveling over at 5km either :)

Dutch
Oct-07-2012, 18:53
Well, there are some 'new kids on the block' these days, Blennie-wise.

Notably Divittor and Slipstream, and in fact they just now won the Dunkirk map for Red, with help from Jeepy and Timboy. Tonka was also in there earlier on. I flew a Blen for a sortie and failed to bomb anything apart from a few French civilians.

From what I've seen tonight, the tactics appear to be leaning more towards low level shallow diving. It certainly worked. :D

Jeepy even bombed a 109 on the runway at some French airfield. One Bomb, one broken 109. Excellent marksmanship if I may say so. :D

ATAG_Bliss
Oct-07-2012, 18:57
Good deal - Red won it :)

Doc
Oct-07-2012, 19:18
Good deal - Red won it :)

That isn't historical either. :PP

ATAG_Jeepy
Oct-07-2012, 19:41
~s~
Tell London to turn the fleet around.. We won :thumbsup:

In the af they call it "tacktical flying"..low'n dirty.
The Blenny was (and is;)an easy picking up there.
-this they altso found out during those early days, ww2..
No belly-gunner, no way to out run/dive fighters, easy spotting.
Even with updates from Your radar controller its much harder to find it
down on the deck.
Then, its quite easy to hit the target low level.

And, if I could have one Spit down with me and a couple up at 5-6k,
it would all be perfect ;)

Great fun today Fellas !!
:salute:

Tonka
Oct-07-2012, 21:05
1.)
But we don't have to see you - the radar will tell us where you're at.


That's a bit of a bug-bear for me. The Radar commands don't work properly for the reds, everything is always 15 miles away, even if you are within shooting distance. There's little point in the Blenny drivers trying to evade these days, no matter where they go, if someone knows about the tab>7>1, they'll find them. I would ask for it to be removed or disabled for the blue's, what with the Luftwaffe not having Radar in 1940, but that would just cause more arguments, i'll just fly fighters instead!

I'd love to figure out a high(er) level bombing approach, but with only 4 bombs, a dodgy bomb sight, and no auto pilot functionality, i haven't done any more than think about it.

Not done much dive bombing myself, but plenty of die bombing!

ATAG_Bliss
Oct-07-2012, 22:02
So basically what you're saying is you need the Welly flyable? :D

Doc
Oct-07-2012, 22:45
That's a bit of a bug-bear for me. The Radar commands don't work properly for the reds, everything is always 15 miles away, even if you are within shooting distance. There's little point in the Blenny drivers trying to evade these days, no matter where they go, if someone knows about the tab>7>1, they'll find them. I would ask for it to be removed or disabled for the blue's, what with the Luftwaffe not having Radar in 1940, but that would just cause more arguments, i'll just fly fighters instead!

I'd love to figure out a high(er) level bombing approach, but with only 4 bombs, a dodgy bomb sight, and no auto pilot functionality, i haven't done any more than think about it.

Not done much dive bombing myself, but plenty of die bombing!

It works for reds. Same as blue.

ANON6_Wolfie
Oct-07-2012, 23:34
Hey.
On the deck the blennie are fast with stable temps. Most of the time I fly under 109`s and 110`s without being detected. Many times I follow blue fighters that fly on the deck without been seen. I think the fighter escorts we get on ATAG server workes fine. Sometimes we direct our escorts to our target area to CAP. I do fly high altitude sometimes for better navigation and to dive in high speed on the target to better my chance to survive AA. I haven`t tryed divebombing "stuka style" yet. I`l give that a go nest time :salute:


------------------------
Known as Wolfie in game

Dutch
Oct-08-2012, 05:14
That isn't historical either. :PP

Too debateable Doc. :idea:

The BEF were successfully evacuated, which was the objective of the exercise, but;

'We should be careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations.
However there was a victory inside this deliverance which should be noted. It was achieved by the airforce.' - WSC. :D

ATAG_Torian
Oct-08-2012, 06:56
Kinda the devil if u do and the devil if u don't. Even if u are escorted u are only gonna get the Blen to about 10-12000ft and a good 109 pilot will just climb, line it up, pour the coal on and hit n run. A Ju 88 or a He 111 will soak up a fair few hits from a Spit or Hurri but a Blen won't tolerate a couple of decent cannon hits. On the deck I find a Blen hard to see when I'm in a 109. Personally I would only be on the deck when attacking shipping as I do dive bomb on inland targets.

Doc
Oct-08-2012, 08:59
8 blens
6 going to main objective covered by 12 fighters
4 others going to a secondary objective covered by 8 fighters
2 layers of fighter cover. Higher fighter covers lower fighter and the lowest the bomber.
Plan your routes to avoid detection and travel over areas that are least likely to be defended.
:geek:

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-08-2012, 11:31
8 blens
6 going to main objective covered by 12 fighters
4 others going to a secondary objective covered by 8 fighters
2 layers of fighter cover. Higher fighter covers lower fighter and the lowest the bomber.
Plan your routes to avoid detection and travel over areas that are least likely to be defended.
:geek:
Now if we reds really did put 12 fighters and 8 bombers together to go across the ditch, we would, in no time at all, return to a map half-destroyed by the lone-wolf 110 and 109 pilots merrily bombing every unprotected objective in sight! :D

It sounds like this multi-layered bomber formation idea is the sort of thing the axis team should be doing in this sim, given the time period and all...
In fact, the Blues don't even need humans to man the bombers, because the AI bombers are there, but I'm yet to see more than 2 or 3 axis fighters attach themselves as escorts. I look forward to the day when the blues stack their AI bomber flights with escorts. This will force the reds to form up and get organised in greater numbers for intercepting. We just might get some classic aerial battles.... :thumbsup:

ATAG_Deacon
Oct-08-2012, 12:08
In fact, the Blues don't even need humans to man the bombers, because the AI bombers are there, but I'm yet to see more than 2 or 3 axis fighters attach themselves as escorts. I look forward to the day when the blues stack their AI bomber flights with escorts. This will force the reds to form up and get organised in greater numbers for intercepting. We just might get some classic aerial battles.... :thumbsup:

pstyle,

We had that for awhile on the map with the large - high bomber groups coming over from France. This occurred when you could get any Spit over 20,000 ft. As it is, only the 87 octane Spits are able to get that high, and most of the Blue guys on that map are down to fighting over Hawkenge at 10k or below.

There were some epic fights at altitude when that map first appeared though...no doubt.

ChiefRedCloud
Oct-08-2012, 12:23
so basically what you're saying is you need the welly flyable? :d

oh yes please! :)

Slingn
Oct-08-2012, 18:52
pstyle,



There were some epic fights at altitude when that map first appeared though...no doubt.


I think i was in a couple of those, with you, and others. Man, those are over? That was the best of times. I was looking forward to that. Geez, a couple busy months, and u miss everything.

Doc
Oct-08-2012, 18:59
Noooo these escort missions are on all the time. Was on one last time I was on. It's just that we got other missions in the mix now and sometimes no one finishes them they just linger like Dutch's flatulence.

Dutch
Oct-08-2012, 19:30
they just linger like Dutch's flatulence.

Quite true. They do, I mean they do that don't they? Linger on and on. Personally I'm quite proud of the fact, but the Mrs. is complaining about air freshener and the household budget. What can one do? Apart from change the mission to something different??

Ah me, flight simulation can be such a trial at times.....sniff....ugh...shouldn't have sniffed. Blimey, I can almost taste that one.......:sick:

I can recommend the Lamb Tikka Massala, with Brinjal Bhaji and Keema Pillau Rice, by the way. You won't get out of bed for a week, but you will be able to assist the National Grid with your excessive contribution. :stunned:

:dthumb:

71st_AH_Eagle
Nov-25-2012, 11:08
Ok, I'm hopefully going to fly today in my Blennie (then another spitfire flight for another AAR time permitting).

I have a different tactic if the map has my favorite fuel depot target. But the thing is, you need a load of fuel to be able to successfully pull this off and it is a lone penetrator style that escorts can not go all the way. The idea is to start at one of the far airfields (not Littlestone or what ever that base is called that is on the shore) and fly off the grid edge and circle around it therefore avoiding radar contact (it's fun to exploit map makers grid design) and head to about where Normandy is and fly up the coast that way. It gives enemy fighters minimal spotting time on radar and reaction time.

I personal want to create a 24/7 type mission where supply and demand is vital to keep flying aircraft but the problem is when to put in the 6-8 hours of night time. I think that would be a great mission to have and I have ideas on how to do it. Just need to talk to Wolf about it.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Nov-28-2012, 03:26
Salute

My tendency is to ask the same question, as I would think there are more options being up high...

However, the Blenheim guys seem to universally prefer being down low. And it seems to work well on occasion.

I have provided an escort four times for ATAG_Bader.

One of the more memorable I escorted along with another Spit right on the deck with him to an inland target. Watched as two 109's flew quite close past us to the north without seeing us. Later another two 109's appeared at the target, and we had a dogfight which saw my Spit partner go down and one 109, and the last 109 running north while streaming coolant. Bader did get home ok with me escorting, although he lost an engine halfway.

Another I flew up at 10,000 while another Spit was down low. Had the Sun at my back and spotted a 109 at about 8000 ft heading for Bader, so I dived on his six, bounced him and chewed him up enough to force a bailout. One of my few kills against Mr. X, although he exited. (Mr. Exit?) After that Bader took out four ships if I remember correctly.

Two of the four times though, we didn't see any 109's, despite the ships being just off French Point, and Bader bombed the ships uneventfully.

So it can work...

Doc
Nov-28-2012, 10:50
I don't think the bomb sight works very well or its difficult to use.

Old_Canuck
Nov-28-2012, 12:56
Reading through a bit of the Blenheim story found online today and :salute::salute::salute::salute: many salutes to those incredibly brave Blenny crews. Low level raids were suicidal but not uncommon. Here's an interesting photo. Apologies if it's already been posted elsewhere.
1189

Also a link to one of the journals:

http://www.rafbombercommand.com/timeline/1941_june_until_june_1942.html

Cheers,

O.C.

ATAG_Slipstream
Nov-28-2012, 13:25
Its been pointed out above why we do this, but the main reasons are:

Its faster. I can pull anywhere between 240-250 or even 260mph on the deck, compare that with the 190-210mph up high. It really helps because it takes the enemy longer to catch you and gives you time to react.

Less Engine management. You can set it and forget it down low, up high you have to mess with carb heat, can't run boost for too long & you have to keep an eye on the temps.

Precision "Pin-Point" Bombing. The sight on the Blennie is not that great, it does work but not so good at heights over 6k. Dive bombing on land based targets works well, but with ships its very 'hit & miss', so its better to go in low and fast and drop an egg that will skip over to the hull of the ship and 11 seconds later. Boom!!

No belly gunner is another good reason. Nothing can get underneath you.

Aircraft Visibility. Although its not fool proof, its generally harder to see something moving fast across terrain or even water, than to pick out a large slow moving dot in the vast expanse of the sky.

Generally if you getting an enemy on your six at altitude, your a sitting duck. The only thing you can do is dive, and whilst the Blennie can dive fairly well, its still no match for the 109. Coupled with the fact that the Blenheim's engines can suffer from being too hot or too cold in, or after a dive, it can be a recipe for disaster. Another point for being low and fast is that you can out-turn pretty much anything especially BF-110's. I've turned the tables on BF-110's Ju-87's & 88's, even BF-109's!
Last night on the new map, I managed to bomb a ship in Calais harbor and then evade two 109's for around 10 mins by flying tight turns through chimney stacks! And even though I took hits, the only reason I went down was because I lost control in a low speed maneuver whilst trying to answer a position report on comms! :doh:

ATAG_Septic
Nov-29-2012, 03:47
Reading through a bit of the Blenheim story found online today and :salute::salute::salute::salute: many salutes to those incredibly brave Blenny crews. Low level raids were suicidal but not uncommon. Here's an interesting photo. Apologies if it's already been posted elsewhere.
1189

Also a link to one of the journals:

http://www.rafbombercommand.com/timeline/1941_june_until_june_1942.html

Cheers,

O.C.

Thanks for the link.

Septic.