Pics from the War.

[DerDa]

As some of you may have read, I was granted permission to post here some pictures I recently found in the inheritance of my mother.
These pictures illustrate some of my fathers, Walter Heinrich Müller, experiences during WW II.
He was part of the German armies that invaded Belgium, Netherlands and France. Accroding to the pics it seems there he reached the rank of Hauptfeldwebel (master sergeant). In 1940 he was transferred to Northern Africa where he stayed until the very End of the Afrikakorps. I know that he subsequently fought in Sicily, Italy and then again in France (albeit going in the opposite direction) until he ended somewhere in Bavaria in 1945 where he was taken prisoner of war by the Americans. The bulk of pictures is from Africa and before, just a handful, if any from after 1943. I don't know why.
Actually, looking at these pictures I realised how desperatly little I know. Not even the name of his unit, because he hated to speak about the war and kept these pictures well locked up. I had only a handful of photographs before and posted them some years ago in the german 'http://forum.sturmovik.de/' but I just found out they are deleted.
In total there were 331 pictures. Very few of them with any information written on the backside, and if so mainly things like 'film 4, picture 3'. Other information had been blackened, obviously when these pics were send home by post. At least about 80 of them were in an album, giving me hopefully some kind of chronological order.
Of all this I chose 123 of which I hope they might find some interest here. I tried to arrange them in a time line as far as possible, but I am sure I made a lot of mistakes.
July 15th this year would have been his 100. birthday.

His military 'career' started in the mid/late 30s when he had finished his apprenticeship as a taylor (he had hated it and later refused to do anything with needles and thread) and as all unemployed young men was transferred to the Reichsarbeitsdienst RAD.
Here (on the right) a picture of this time together with one of his elder brothers, who already was a 'real' soldier.
23692

[DerDa]

23693

The RAD was th Naizs clever idea to get all unemployeds from the streets, keep them busy and at the same time have autobahns build for nothing but food and lodging.
23694
This looks very much like the Heidelberg Mainstreet. If you ever read Erica Jongs 'Fear of Flying' you may know that the dignitaries of Heidelberg tried to brownnose Hitler by building a ridiculous 'Germanic' amphitheater up in the hills and inviting him to the opening. He never came and up until today the thing is a nice place for students to do barbecue and get drunk.
23695

Besides marching and playing dreadful music
23696
they were mainly digging in the dirt, building roads or drying out swamps, thereby destroying thousands of waterlogged archaeological sites.
23697
23698
In 1937 or 1938 he, as all fit youngsters, was transfered from RAD to the army. I hve some postcards of 'Panzer-Abwehr Abteilung 35' This would fit, because this unit was created in the region and later used for the war in the West.
23699

[DerDa]

Up to know all fun and games
23700
and exciting high technology
23701
And, as we all know, all these weapons were just neccesary to defend the fatherland.
23702
23703
23704
23705
23706

[DerDa]

The next three pics must have been taken in winter, so I suppose they are from the 'phoney war' period.
23707
23708
23709

[DerDa]

And now its getting late and tomorrow morning will come much too soon.
I will continue tomorrow.

[Mysticpuma]

This looks set to be an incredible thread. Looking forward to seeing this archive. Brilliant and thanks for sharing :)

Cheers, MP

[ATAG_Colander]

This looks set to be an incredible thread. Looking forward to seeing this archive. Brilliant and thanks for sharing :)

+100!!

Is a rare view into the "normal" life of a soldier.

[ATAG_Knuckles]

thanks so much for sharing your part of history : great stuff

[ATAG_Ezzie]

Thanks DerDa - looking fwd to some more unique photos whenever you get the time to do some more.

Ezzie

[ATAG_((dB))]

Thank you for sharing DerDa, please keep them coming :thumbsup:

[DerDa]

Thank you very much indeed for all the 'likes' you clicked.
So let's continue the story. Trees got green and the war no longer phoney:
23741

A break after harvest
23742

Here a picture of Gien (Loiret), or what Luftwaffe left over from this beautiful town.
23743
15th of June 1940 the bridge was bombed to cut of french troops from retreat. The resultingfire destroyed most of the historical town.
23744
In many history books the war in the West in 1940 is described as something like a walk in the park for the Wehrmacht. Maybe it was for the Generals. For most of the fighting troops it wasn't.
23745
Especially the troops of Rommel who owned his fame there suffered the heaviest casualties. Also this is at Gien.
23746

[DerDa]

It seems my father was stationed for several weeks at Gien. Enough time to have a rest

23747
I wonder what the french boys thought about the drunken 'boches', well I can imagine.
Maybe here someone high up decided that he would go overseas. In April 1940 the Panzerabwehr-Abteilung 35 had been re-named as Panzerjäger-Abteilung 35. They stayed in France until June 1941 then were sent to the east for operation Barbarossa, where they commited some of the worst crimes of war. But obviously already in 1940 some parts of the troop were chosen to go to Africa. Maybe is why my dad got his master sergaent training in Gien.
Learning to do what sergeants do:
23748
But hiding the grin still needs some practice.
Combat training:
23749
23750
And 'Training Course Gas':
23751

[DerDa]

But Wehrmacht Tours also cared about cultural education.
Trip to Paris:
23754
23755
23756
23757
23758

On the back of the following picture is written:
'In der roten Mühle, Paris'
23759
Translating literally: 'In the Red Mill, Paris' better known as the Moulin Rouge.
Daddy, Daddy what did you do there?

[ATAG_Colander]

Translating literally: 'In the Red Mill, Paris' better known as the Moulin Rouge.
Daddy, Daddy what did you do there?

Wonder how the dancers felt!

[DerDa]

Already in summer or early autumn the unit (I no lnger know which one) was transferred to the coast. On the pictures the place is called Home sur Mer if I read it correctly. Did not find the place on a map.
23760
and further trained. I don't know whether for 'Sea Lion' or already for Africa.
23761
Testing british machine guns, most probably left at Dunkirk:
23762
Flamethrower trainig (maybe already earlier at Grien):
23763
And a lot of shipping training:
23764
23765
23766
Inspection by a General Jansen:
23767

[SoW Reddog]

Testing british machine guns, most probably left at Dunkirk:
23762

That's not a British Bren which I assume you meant, but a Czech zb26, adopted into the Wehrmacht as the MG26(t) after the occupation of Czechoslovakia. It is a direct ancestor of the Bren design though.

[\Hawk/]

DerDa thank you so much for sharing these personal photographs.
It is totally amazing to see through the eyes of a soldier from the ground up.

Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk

[DerDa]

That's not a British Bren which I assume you meant, but a Czech zb26, adopted into the Wehrmacht as the MG26(t) after the occupation of Czechoslovakia. It is a direct ancestor of the Bren design though.

Well I have no idea at all about this kind of weapon. It's just written on the back of the picture:
'Scharfschießen mit engl. MG bei Home s/ Mer'
('Sharp shooting with engl. MG near Home s/ Mer')
that's all I know.
But please, if you have comments, questions, information whatever about these pictures feel free to discuss them here. I can only learn more by this. For example I dearly would like to know where this Home sur Mer is.

Cheers


DerDa

PS: Tomorrow we'll go to the med.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

For example I dearly would like to know where this Home sur Mer is.


I think this is a mis-spelling of an actual French seaside town. There are dozens of towns with "...sur Mer", or 'by the sea', in their names.

Anyway it is obviously a town on the French coast opposite to where the invasion areas were to be in southern England. And the soldiers are training for Unternehmen Seelöwe.

[SoW Reddog]

Sorry DerDa, should have said this thread is awesome and the pictures are very clear and interesting.

Maybe the lmg was taken from the British then, I'm not aware of us deploying any but then I'm not an expert.

[ATAG_Marlow]

Hi DerDa....got to say...these pictures are truly amazing....a real treasure trove!

They are not the sort of photo's you find in a history book because they are so personal! It is so lucky, too, that they have survived, there are so many of them and that they can be sorted into some sort of chronological order. Fantastic!
Thanks for sharing and I look forward to visiting the Med with your Dad.

Salute! :thumbsup:

[DerDa]

Sorry DerDa, should have said this thread is awesome and the pictures are very clear and interesting.

Maybe the lmg was taken from the British then, I'm not aware of us deploying any but then I'm not an expert.

No need to apologize at all.
As I said: I realised how desperately little I know and all comments help me to learn a bit more.

@Buzzsaw
Most probably you are right about a misspelling (or my inability to decipher the handwriting).
The curious thing is that this is one of the very few placenames that turn up, and amongst them it is one of the most frequent. Also the unit seems to have spent quite some time there.

[Vlerkies]

Wonderful pieces of history, thanks for sharing!



His military 'career' started in the mid/late 30s when he had finished his apprenticeship as a taylor (he had hated it and later refused to do anything with needles and thread) and as all unemployed young men was transferred to the Reichsarbeitsdienst RAD.
Here (on the right) a picture of this time together with one of his elder brothers, who already was a 'real' soldier.
23692

Just to throw the cat among the pigeons, the uniform on the left (your uncle?) looks decidedly like that of Luftwaffe issue, for a Gefreiter or Unterfeldwebel (2 guill wings and shoulder epaulets)

[ATAG_Flare]

Well I have no idea at all about this kind of weapon. It's just written on the back of the picture:
'Scharfschießen mit engl. MG bei Home s/ Mer'
('Sharp shooting with engl. MG near Home s/ Mer')
that's all I know.
But please, if you have comments, questions, information whatever about these pictures feel free to discuss them here. I can only learn more by this. For example I dearly would like to know where this Home sur Mer is.

Cheers


DerDa

PS: Tomorrow we'll go to the med.


That's not a British Bren which I assume you meant, but a Czech zb26, adopted into the Wehrmacht as the MG26(t) after the occupation of Czechoslovakia. It is a direct ancestor of the Bren design though.

It doesn't really even look like a vz 26. Look at the big box thing underneath the magazine, and the forwards location of the bipod. A quick google shows most pictures show the bipod further back, and no box underneath it . . .

Could just be an odd modification or variant. Definetley not a Bren though.

[ATAG_Highseas]

A quick google shows most pictures show the bipod further back, and no box underneath it . . .


however... a lot of info has been changed on google since the 40's.

for one thing that lady on the switchboard... Cortana... she used to be called Vera :D

[SoW Reddog]

It doesn't really even look like a vz 26. Look at the big box thing underneath the magazine, and the forwards location of the bipod. A quick google shows most pictures show the bipod further back, and no box underneath it . . .

Could just be an odd modification or variant. Definetley not a Bren though.

Good spot. I actually hadn't looked at it that closely, forgetting I could enlarge the image. I also assumed the bipod was a clip affair and could be relocated anywhere along the gas tube.

On further inspection I believe it's a captured french MAC 1924/29 as seen here http://world.guns.ru/machine/fr/mac-m1924-e.html and

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_24/29_light_machine_gun

[DerDa]

Just to throw the cat among the pigeons, the uniform on the left (your uncle?) looks decidedly like that of Luftwaffe issue, for a Gefreiter or Unterfeldwebel (2 guill wings and shoulder epaulets)

Jes, that was my uncle, believe it or not, Fritz. The second of three brothers, my Dad was the youngest.
What I know about them during WW II goes close to zero. He might well have been in the Luftwaffe, but certainly not as a pilot. He was the one in the family, who took things easy. Let's just say I would not need to ask what he would have done in the Moulin Rouge.
I just know that in spring 1945 the two brothers managed to meet somewhere in Bavaria and surrendered themselves to the Americans. Fritz very soon made friends with American officers (and their wifes, when they came to join their husbands). He very soon got released and worked as a driver for said officers (and their wifes). He stayed down there in Bavaria, even adopting their horrific dialect and opened a driving school.
The oldest, Kurt, was in the east. He also survived.

[DerDa]

It's getting interesting about these machine guns.
What about the bigger gun on the other picture?
I have two more photographs of the same thing that I could not fit into the timeline.
Here they are anyway:
23779
23780

[ATAG_Colander]

Almost looks like a Solothurn

[DerDa]

The Kompanie had their christmas celebration still in northern France.
23781
23782
But in spring they were moved to Italy.
Here 'Trip to Sorrent'
23787
Now here is something that surprised me:
This picture shows on the back:
'Neapel. M. erste Betretung des Schiffes' (strange kind of expression by the way, translating to: 'Naples. My first entering the ship')
23783
But from Naples they did not go directly to Africa, but just to Sicily for a while. The next pictures caption reads 'Messina, (Sizilien) am 29. 4. 41'
23784
They must have stayed quite some time, because they made trips to a lot of sight seeing places or just the beach
23788
The great big world for a village boy. He must have loved it and felt really well there. In the sixties he dragged the whole family to Italy, whenever we could afford it and a car was available. Some of my earliest childhood memories are of puking on St. Gotthardt.
They even made tours back to the mainland:
'Marsch zur Fähre, Aufflug Messina'
(Marching to the ferry, trip to Messina)
23789
This is some official place showing on several pictures:
23790
At least for some time they camped on the beach
23791
and made preparations for shipping:
'My carpenters at work. Catania May 41'
23792

Remember those boxes ...

[ATAG_Colander]

This is some official place showing on several pictures:
23790

Found it!
Collegio Costanzo Ciano della Gioventù Italiana del Littorio
http://www.pophub.it/edifici/collegio-costanzo-ciano-della-giovent%C3%B9-italiana-del-littorio--8447

[DerDa]

Now something for our Navy fans.
The Großherzogin Elisabeth, now Duchess Anne
23793
No idea why this picture was right amongst the others, because this ship was supposed to be in Hamburg at the time ...

But the next three are deinetely the straits of Messina.
A hospital ship, the writing on the back is blackened, so it must have been something of tremendous importance.
23794
This one has the caption: 'Auslaufen eines Kreuzers Messina, Sizilien' (Cruiser leaving Messina, Sicily). Well more like a little destroyer. He grew up very far from the sea ...
23795
And again the harbour of Messina:
23796

[DerDa]

And finally Africa

23797

To be continued.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

The AFRIKA KORPS was slow in getting over to N Africa because there was a shortage of shipping, the British were actively patrolling the Mediterranean shipping routes from Italy and Sicily with submarines and aircraft from Malta, and even when the Regia Marina put together convoys to protect them, there was a significant risk of them being sunk.

This would explain the delay your father experienced, and why he had time to sit on the beach.

Early '41 was also the same time the Luftwaffe transferred a number of air units to Sicily in their first effort to suppress Malta, destroy the RAF airfields and aircraft, sink the Royal Navy ships, and reduce the risk to the shipping. Initially there were Ju-87's, Heinkel 111's and 110's assigned, later 109E's from JG26.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Very interesting... :thumbsup:

I am fairly sure that is a Destroyer, not a Cruiser... although the Italians did have quite a few Cruisers. Off the top of my head, maybe a NAVIGATORI class?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Nicolo_Zeno_at_anchor.jpg

Either that or an ORIANI class:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/Oriani_and_her_crew.jpg


Now something for our Navy fans.
The Großherzogin Elisabeth, now Duchess Anne
23793
No idea why this picture was right amongst the others, because this ship was supposed to be in Hamburg at the time ...

But the next three are deinetely the straits of Messina.
A hospital ship, the writing on the back is blackened, so it must have been something of tremendous importance.
23794
This one has the caption: 'Auslaufen eines Kreuzers Messina, Sizilien' (Cruiser leaving Messina, Sicily). Well more like a little destroyer. He grew up very far from the sea ...
23795
And again the harbour of Messina:
23796

[ATAG_Colander]

Yep, looks more like an Oriani class. See the curve where the deck gets lower.

http://www.culturanavale.it/foto/188/1276674915.JPG
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23795&d=1469649897

[Vlerkies]

Looking at the ship the designation on the bow is 'FL'
That would make it a Folgore-class destroyer, the 'Fulmine' to be precise, which was sunk in the Battle of Duisburg Convoy, 8/9 November 1941
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Duisburg_Convoy

23802
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?138164

23808

It looks like she sailed as escort with 3 other destroyers from Messina on the 7 November 1941, her last voyage before being sunk 2 days later.
Maybe thats the last ever picture taken of her leaving port?

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Very good detective work Vlerkies! :thumbsup:

What happened to Fulmine and her convoy is exactly why the Axis were cautious about shipping troops across the Med.

[Vlerkies]

Very good detective work Vlerkies! :thumbsup:

What happened to Fulmine and her convoy is exactly why the Axis were cautious about shipping troops across the Med.
:salute:

Quite correct Buzz, from the little I have read it seems at that point they were avoiding it as much as possible (the convoys), seems the radar was taking its toll on them and they had not realised it yet.
However some major op in N Africa planned for the 21 Nov '41 forced their hand and this convoy was dispatched.
It was a significant convoy, and all the cargo was lost along with 1 destroyer, the Fulmine and 2 badly damaged, Grecale and Euro.
It is put down as one of the best Allied (British) naval victories of the war.

23841
23842
Can't find the piece I read earlier today, but apparently the only casualties on the Allied side were a handful (7) budgies that died from shock, which I found somehow morbidly amusing, considering the magnitude of the events of the battle.

Also, not exactly clear on the port of sailing before the battle of Fulmine and her sister ships but in all likelihood it was Messina, the convoy was a mixed bunch from a few ports but the destroyers are mentioned in the same sentence as the ships that left from Messina.

[DerDa]

Thank you all very much for your input. That's exactly what I hoped for.
The picture of Fulmine is not dated, but it should date from late spring 41.

Well somehow they managed to get over to Africa
23849
and settle in
23850
23851
Here tw picturesof the camp kitchen dated 13. 9. 41
23852
23853
Maybe the big metal pots to the right were used for washing?
Now there is al longer numbered sequence of pictures from camp life. Because of the numbering I assume they all belong chronologically together.
23854
23855
23856
23857
23858

[DerDa]

On this picture the sign reads 'Schreibstube' (office) with the 'Feldpostnummer' (military postal code or something like that) 43573. The same nuber is written on the big wooden box.
23859
Small tents for living
23860
And here the signs for 'Chef 5. Komp. 43573' and 'Arzt (Physician) Dienststelle 41660'
23861
Radio
23862
And studying local wildlife
23863
Number 38 the last of this series and most probalby the last from this location
23864

[1lokos]

Ops, already posted by Velkires :)

[Vlerkies]

Numbers are unit postal codes, which should help you with dates/place as well

Feldpost 41660

Feldersatz-Bataillon??? Perhaps a mustering unit for fresh/replacement soldiers to acclimatize?


41660
(28.2.1941-29.7.1941) Stab Feldersatz-Bataillon 5. leichte
Division,
dann Stab Feldersatz-Bataillon der 5. leichte Division (mot)
(30.7.1941-28.2.1942) Stab Feldersatz-Bataillon 21.
Panzer-Division,
dann Stab Feldersatz-Bataillon 200
(8.9.1942-11.3.1943) Stab, 1.-5. u. Genesenden-Kompanie
Feldersatz-Bataillon 200
(12.3.1943-7.9.1943) gestrichen (Tunis)
(23.4.1944-24.11.1944) 29.7.1944 Bahnhofs-Kommandantur (II) 467.
.
http://www.axishistory.com/about-ahf/383-germany-military-other/feldpost/8966-feldpost-numbers-41000-41999

43573

43573
(28.2.1941-29.7.1941) 2.Kompanie Feldersatz-Bataillon der 5.
leichte Division (mot.)
(30.7.1941-28.2.1942) 5.KompanieFeldersatz-Bataillon 21.
Panzer-Division,
dann 5. Kompanie Feldersatz-Bataillon 200,
(8.9.1942-11.3.1943) gestrichen, wurde Fp.Nr. 41660 F
(23.4.1944-24.11.1944) 8.6.1944 Kraftfahr-Kompanie 274
(25.11.1944-8.5.1945) 12.2.1945 gestrichen.
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/383-germany-military-other/feldpost/8968-feldpost-numbers-43000-43999

So with your Kitchen photo date it looks like your Father was with or around these guys at that particular time.

Stab Feldersatz-Bataillon 21.
Panzer-Division,
dann Stab Feldersatz-Bataillon 200

5.KompanieFeldersatz-Bataillon 21.
Panzer-Division,

[DerDa]

Thanks indeed Vlerkies!
I googled around a bit and the 5.KompanieFeldersatz-Bataillon 21.
Panzer-Division seems to fit to all the bits and pieces I know of.

The next pictures look much more like sand desert, Cyrenaika and all that
23930
I remember he told me how fsacinated they were by frying eggs on the engine hood of their cars.
23931
The sign reads 'Posto di Blocco' and even with my non existing Italian I can imagine wht it means.
23932
Back home they already got a lot of experience about the astonishing roll rate of lorries (see pics 17 and 18), which might have helped them here:
23933
23934
These to are dated to 13. 7. 42 (two days before his 26th birthday). On the back they read 'Rollfilm Nr. 11' Picture 4 and 8. I don't have the others, maybe there is still more to discover.
This guy was the company driver. I actually know his name, as well as that of the units typist, because in March 1943 those two had pictures made and gave them to my dad as souvenirs.
'Unserem Hauptfeldwebel Müller zur Erinnerung gewidmet. Afrika März 1943'
(As a souvenir for our master sergeant Müller. Africa, March 1943)
I wonder if the line means that they gave him the pis already in March 43 (this would mean they had the facilities to develop the pictures), or if they presented them at a later point of time.
Camps and offices became more basic
23935
And the soldiers skinnier
23936
The office as well is no longer that cosy
23937
Same postal code, but this time '2. Komp.'
I could not decipher anything on this one, but it seems the same place
23938
Having a break, in regard of the clothes just after break of dawn.
23939

[Vlerkies]

No really, thank you DerDa, for these exceptional snap shots of history and for sharing them with our community.
:salute:
Your dad was a soldier, but he was also a photographer and historian in the same breath as well ;)

Honestly, if you can piece it all together on a timeline its invaluable, and it would make a wonderful historical record worthy of display for generations to come.




These to are dated to 13. 7. 42 (two days before his 26th birthday). On the back they read 'Rollfilm Nr. 11' Picture 4 and 8. I don't have the others, maybe there is still more to discover.
The 1st Battle of El Alamein had started at this time frame.

[HurricaneHarvest]

Fantastic photos Derda.

Brings in some history. :thumbsup:

[FightingSteel1]

Very interesting pictures!

So, three brothers, two of whom surrendered to the U.S. in 1945, and another that was on the Eastern Front? And all survived...I would think that was a very fortunate German family.

[DerDa]

No really, thank you DerDa, for these exceptional snap shots of history and for sharing them with our community.
:salute:
Your dad was a soldier, but he was also a photographer and historian in the same breath as well ;)

Honestly, if you can piece it all together on a timeline its invaluable, and it would make a wonderful historical record worthy of display for generations to come.



The 1st Battle of El Alamein had started at this time frame.

Indeed it did, and I will now post some pictures that should belong into this context.
One strange thing is that I can't remember my dad as an enthousiastic photographer. He shows up on many pictures himself, so at least these were not taken by him. Maybe the clerk or the driver?
The other thing is that, as far as I can see the whole series of pictures ends with the retreat from Africa (before I had thought that the Sicilian pics were taken in 1943, prior to the Allied landing, but now I think they are all from '41).
So maybe the photographer, or just the camera, never made it back from North Africa.
Which in turn would mean that they could develop the pisc in the field (unlikely) or that they considered the undeveloped films worth to bring them back to Europe, even during the most chaotic retreat.

[DerDa]

Very interesting pictures!

So, three brothers, two of whom surrendered to the U.S. in 1945, and another that was on the Eastern Front? And all survived...I would think that was a very fortunate German family.

Absolutely! They managed to beat the stats.
Maybe it can partly be explained by the fact that they were no longer youngsters, when the war started. Unlike the cannon fodder that was drafted later, they all had a thourough 'peace time training' and maybe had reached positions that put them out of the very first line of fire.

[DerDa]

Muster in the desert
23966
Artillery fire or a bomb?
23967
And AAA
23968

23969
23970

Another dated one and even a caption but hard to read:
'Film 14 Bild 24 Bucht mit Landungsfallen ... ... 18. (7. 8.?) 42'
(Film 14 Picture 24 Bay with landing traps ... ... 18. () 42)
I will scan the backside, maybe one of you can read the two missing words
23971
Maybe the same bay
23972
I add this undated picture here, because it fits to the 'Landungsfallen'
23973
And this one reads just.
'Sonnenuntergang am Meer'
'Sunset at the beach'
23974

[DerDa]

Landscape again
23975
and the one I posted already in the other thread
23976
Some 'sight seeing'
23977
23978

'Rollfilm Nr. 11 13. 7. 42 Bild 9:
23979

23980
23981

Again 13. 7. 42:
23982

2. 7. 42
23983

Sorry I mixed up the dates a bit, but they are roughly all from the same time.

[Bonditaria]

Thank you DerDa for these pictures.

My father was in this area in 1945-48, guarding and maintaining various disused RAF forward airfields, in appalling conditions. So it is interesting to see these views, more than I can write, very moving.

[DerDa]

I just saw that today this thread was viewed more than 1000 times.
Thanks again for your interest and all the 'likes' and comments!

The last pictures were uploaded while I waited for the TF Update on Sunday. It is somewhat spooky for me, how several scenes in the update fit to the photographs.
Anyway, here comes the rest:
'Film Nr. 9, 2. 7. 42'
24072
'Ju 88'
24073
Unluckily no comment whatsoever on this picture.
24074
'Rollfilm Nr. 11, 13. 7. 42 Bild 7'
24075

On this pic he looks quite a bit older. It has written 'Film 24, Bild 5' on it, so I assume it was taken a lot later than the previous ones from Film 9. Most probably were are in '43 already.
24076
Directly the next one 'Film 24, Bild 6
24077

And then 'Film 25' pictures 3, 4 and 5.
Do you remember the boxes that were made in Sicily?
24078
24079
24080

[DerDa]

So I think this was the end of Afrikakorps.
Two undated pictures somehow fit here:
24081
24082

There is a bunch more from Italy, mainly touristic pictures from Rome
like these:
24083
24084

and this one showing him in hospital:
24085

I can't remember telling him about being wounded. But I know that the soldiers in N. Africa suffered heavily from tropical diseases and that they were stuffed with lots of medicines and drugs.
In the late 70ies, just before he reached retirement age, both his kidneys completely failed. The doctors blamed the 'drugs from Africa' for this. Thanks to kidney dialysis he survived five more years and died on August 11th 1984.

[lil_head]

Great set of photos. You're blessed to have these, thanks for sharing. Hope you find out more about them.

[ATAG_Colander]

Just a little test to try to imagine how it looked in real life...
24087

[\Hawk/]

Thank you so much for sharing DerDa.

Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk

[Vlerkies]

Unluckily no comment whatsoever on this picture.
24074


Interesting tail.
I'm thinking from the Bristol company, so either Beaufighter or Blenheim.
I was leaning towards the Beaufighter (it looks small) but if we make an assumption that the first digit partially hidden is a 'z' or a '7' the only thing that comes up is a serial number for a Blenheim MkIV, Z5863 (Z5863 Bristol Avro 142L Blenheim IV) manufactured between '40-41.
Records indicate it was manufactured by Avro (AV Roe and Co / Chadderton)
24088

Hitting blanks on its history though.

[Vlerkies]

Found some scraps
15.04.1941
Z5863 14? Squadron. FTR from reconnaissance to Halfya and Sollum.
P/O I Ormiston and Sgt A Fraser KIA and buried in war cemetary. Sgt Smith became POW.

Sergeant Allan Hugh Fraser
24094
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=18971110&PIpi=131689136

Fraser and Ormiston listed in the cemetery
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GSiman=1&GScid=1966591&GSfn=&GSln=ormiston

24095


On 11 June 1940, the day after war was declared by Italy, the Squadron carried out a raid on the Italian air base at Massawa. Over the next 10 months the Squadron was engaged in convoy protection duties over the Red Sea, interdiction against Italian installations at Massawa and Asmara, and close support of 4th Indian Division’s advances against Kassala and Keren. During these operations the Squadron also converted from the Wellesley to the twin-engined Bristol Blenheim MkIV. After the successful conclusion of the Abyssinian campaign, 14 Squadron was sent to the Western Desert of Egypt, the site of the Squadron’s first operations in 1915.

During these operations the Squadron also converted from the Wellesley to the twin-engined Bristol Blenheim MkIV. After the successful conclusion of the Abyssinian campaign, 14 Squadron was sent to the Western Desert of Egypt, the site of the Squadron’s first operations in 1915.

During the months of May and June 1941, 14 Squadron was heavily involved in direct support firstly of Operation Brevity and then Operation Battleaxe, two unsuccessful attempts by the army to break through the Axis front line near Sollum. These operations were interspersed by long-range missions over Crete following the German invasion, and two months of hard operational flying took its toll: of the sixteen crews and twenty aircraft with which the Squadron had deployed to Egypt, by June 1941 only four crews and three serviceable aircraft remained. The Squadron was withdrawn from the desert and dispatched to Iraq, where it was involved in demonstrations of force, including long-range leaflet-dropping raids, over Persia.
http://www.14sqn-association.org.uk/14_Squadron_Association/History.html

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

I just saw that today this thread was viewed more than 1000 times.
Thanks again for your interest and all the 'likes' and comments!

The last pictures were uploaded while I waited for the TF Update on Sunday. It is somewhat spooky for me, how several scenes in the update fit to the photographs.
Anyway, here comes the rest:

'Rollfilm Nr. 11, 13. 7. 42 Bild 7'
24075



This picture creates another bit of a mystery.

It looks like a Reggiane Re-2001 fuselage being shipped on a truck.

Re-2001

http://forum.valka.cz/files/re2001_mm409_194.jpg

However, I do not think the Re-2001 ever saw service in the Egypt/Libyan Desert, as far as I know, it only saw service from Sicily or the Italian mainland. So I am wondering if this picture is actually of Tunisia or even Sicily? But there are the Palm trees.

Even if it was a Re-2000, they also did not see service in the desert.

Re-2000

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/Regia1/Re2000-1.jpg

It can't be an Re-2002, they did not see service till 1943... when they were used extensively in the defense of Sicily against the Allied invasion.

Anyone want to shed light on this?

[SoW Reddog]

I was pretty sure that was a macchi 200.

[Akula93]

I was pretty sure that was a macchi 200.

yes, its macchi vertical stabilizer shape, and no antena like 202, so probably 200

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

There certainly were Macchi 200's in the desert, so you may be right. :thumbsup:

I think the engine has been removed, that is why the nose appears to taper to a point like the inline in a Re-2001.

Only the skeleton of the engine mounts remain.

http://www.57thfightergroup.org/pictures/bob_hanning/southern_italy/124.jpg


'Rollfilm Nr. 11, 13. 7. 42 Bild 7'
24075

[Vlerkies]

There certainly were Macchi 200's in the desert, so you may be right. :thumbsup:

I think the engine has been removed, that is why the nose appears to taper to a point like the inline in a Re-2001.

Only the skeleton of the engine mounts remain.
Yeah looks like a Macchi 200. Difficult to see, the only thing is the little extended piece at the tail seems missing, maybe just removed or off.
I think there may be some significance in that photo, if it is indeed a Italian Macchi 200 (sure look like it), the Sqn or Squadriglia number it seems doesn't fit. Cant find anything like it?


Anyway, this thread is great.
While researching a little bit on 14 Sqn, the first Blennies arrived in Sept '40 at Port of Sudan.
A blue on blue incident occured when a Gladiator mistook a Blennie for an Italian SM79, which happened to be piloted by the newly promoted Sqn Ldr Stapelton.
The Blennie was heavily damaged and Stapelton shot in the wrist, but managed to land safely with no kia's.

Story goes that the Gladiator pilot was forced to report to Stapleton while he was in hospital recovering to apologise for his deeds. Stapleton however forced the trigger happy pilot to first drink half a pint of vinegar and tonic water by way of penitence before his apology was accepted :)

[SoW Reddog]

Does it look like 355 Squadriglia to anyone else?

[Vlerkies]

Does it look like 355 Squadriglia to anyone else?

Hi Reddog

I tried a few but didnt come up with anything close.
I do still think its the 200 as you have stated.

I thought 755 first, then 355 but then also the 2nd digit looks ( a little ) different to the 3rd as well. 355 no reference to 200's just G.50's, tail wheel to far back for G.50. I am no expert, but if 355 had the 200 I am looking in the wrong places. Quite possible though so betting you have it right. :salute:
Dunno, got me thinking maybe there was more significance to the capture by the photographer than just a truck driving past with a plane.
24118

Anyway, hope theres many more images to come from DerDa, really special to see.

[Vlerkies]

http://www.57thfightergroup.org/pictures/bob_hanning/southern_italy/124.jpg
What is the plane on the left as a matter of interest? G-50?

[SoW Reddog]

Well if it is a Macchi 200, the Savoy cross on the tail being "equal" means that it was manufactured by the Breda factory.

[Akula93]

What is the plane on the left as a matter of interest? G-50?

yes G50

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

G-50's were the first monoplanes the Italians had in the Desert... Macchi-C-200's arrived quite a bit later.

[ATAG_Ezzie]

Another Italian monoplane in the western desert was the breda65 but it doesnt look much like it - G50 is the best match it seems


http://www.ww2incolor.com/italian-forces/BA65.html

Ezzie

[Vlerkies]

Some more on Blennie Z5863.

Seems 14 Sqn was based in Heliopolis.
The mission was a 2 ship Blennie recon to Tobruk.
They had to land at Ma'aten Bagush (+- 400km) en route for further orders then on to recce Tobruk (another +-400km).
Only one Blennie made it back to Ma'aten Bagush.

The navigator on the other Blennie (leading aircraft) noted how difficult it was to navigate over the rather featureless terrain and the approach to Tobruk was a rather narrow corridor or safe lane as the author puts it flanked by axis troops making life quite difficult for the nav operator.
Z5863 was trailing behind and never made it back.
At least from the book (Winged Crusaders) it seems unclear as to when or where they lost each other en route.
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Winged-Crusaders/p/3627

[DerDa]

Another big 'Thank You' for all the information you dug out.
Especially the Blennie story is extremely fascinating.

I am sorry to say that I posted almost all scanned pictures. There are about 200 more, but just showing people (and I am a bit reluctant to show them if I do not know who they were) or spots of touristic interest.
But amongsts my mums inheritage there were not only those pictures of my father.
I have boxes and boxes with even older ones, from the 30s, 20s and even from WW I
from my grandfather
24130
and grand uncle
24131
24132

But sadly nothing connected to aviation. As mechanists (my granddad was an apprentice to Carl Benz) they mainly ended up with artillery.
As a curiosity ans because its Olympic Games time again here a postcard showing the pre-war skyline of Frankfurt with Zeppelin Hindenburg displaying the Olympic rings.
24133

My mum (born 1928) and her elder brother were just kids when the war started. Todays kids collect pictures and stickers of football or other sports heroes. In 1941 they obviously collected dead fighter pilots ...
24134

[rel4y]

Thank you very much for sharing these pictures with us! Extremely interesting read/watch. :salute:

[Vlerkies]

24130



Quite a haunting image.
There is something about the old film that is just so completely lost with modern dslr shots.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Another Italian monoplane in the western desert was the breda65 but it doesnt look much like it - G50 is the best match it seems


http://www.ww2incolor.com/italian-forces/BA65.html

Ezzie

Hey Ezzie

Just noticed your post.

I was thinking of fighters when I said monoplanes... you're right the BA-65 was a monoplane and actually equipped the Regia Aeronautica before the G-50, but the BA-65 was a ground attack aircraft not a fighter... also completely obsolete by this time, saw most service during Spanish Civil War.

The G-50 wasn't exactly cutting edge, but it could compete reasonably well in 1940 when they were mostly up against Gladiators. Later also was used for ground attack.

[Mysticpuma]

In total there were 331 pictures. Very few of them with any information written on the backside, and if so mainly things like 'film 4, picture 3'. Other information had been blackened, obviously when these pics were send home by post. At least about 80 of them were in an album, giving me hopefully some kind of chronological order.
Of all this I chose 123 of which I hope they might find some interest here.
23692

Hi DerDa. Just out of interest, of the 331, apart from the ones you are posting here, do any others show aircraft or airfields? Obviously this is a Flightsim forum....so if there are any please also consider posting them. Aircraft are what we live and breath :)

Great thread and again, thanks for your efforts and sharing them here.

Cheers, MP

[DerDa]

What? This is a flight sim forum??? How did I get here???
:)

Naturally I included everything with aircraft or parts of aircraft on it (and I am amazed what other people already found out about those).
Also I posted anything with technical equipment, ships, cars and landscape that might be of interest to the crowd here or maybe even be a bit of inspiration to map and mission builders.

I am sorry but there is nothing more of this. As I wrote, just people and places of touristic interest and the St. Peters in Rome did not change that much.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

What? This is a flight sim forum??? How did I get here???
:)

Naturally I included everything with aircraft or parts of aircraft on it (and I am amazed what other people already found out about those).
Also I posted anything with technical equipment, ships, cars and landscape that might be of interest to the crowd here or maybe even be a bit of inspiration to map and mission builders.

I am sorry but there is nothing more of this. As I wrote, just people and places of touristic interest and the St. Peters in Rome did not change that much.

Thanks very much DerDa... we appreciate the look into the history of your family. :thumbsup:

[Vlerkies]

Hi DerDa

As promised an update on the Blenheim picture.
With your permission (as per pm) I sent it off to Michael Napier(author of 'Winged Crusaders' and ex 14Sqn pilot).

About Michael Napier

The elder son of an army officer, Michael Napier joined the RAF in 1978 and served with 14 Squadron as a Tornado pilot in the late 1980s and again in the early 1990s. These two tours engendered a deep interest in 14 Squadron’s distinguished history. He was appointed as Honorary Secretary of the 14 Squadron Association in 2003 and since then has carried out extensive research into the Squadron’s heritage. Michael, who is now is an airline captain, lives in the Cotswolds with his wife and two children.
He has no doubt it is that of the missing Blenheim Z5863 and was very chuffed and grateful to see the image, so thank you again.

As certain bits of the Sqn records are missing there are more questions than answers.
The crew, PO Ormiston and Sgt Fraser were KIA, however the actual record of Sgt E Smith is a mystery at this stage. He was listed as POW but the origin of that report is unknown at this stage, or if he survived the war, or if he could or did shed any light on the events leading to the aircraft going down.

Anyway, all fascinating stuff, the hunt for Sgt Smith continues :salute:
A link to the book for anyone interested, available in ebook or hardcover.
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Winged-Crusaders-Hardback/p/3627
https://www.amazon.com/Winged-Crusaders-Exploits-Squadron-1915-45/dp/1781590591

[DerDa]

This research is very interesting.
Thank you very much for sharing the reults.

Best

DerDa

[Alexunderpressure]

Thanks for sharing the pictures.

Very interesting post. I´m a thousand years behind you all in the knowledge of aviation history displayed here. This has been a very enjoyable and interesting read. The Blenny history is impressive. What those crews had to endure....

[JV44Rall]

Quite a haunting image.
There is something about the old film that is just so completely lost with modern dslr shots.
It is. This was likely shot on orthographic sheet film, which is more sensitive to certain colors and can hold a lot more detail. Often the printer created a direct contact print of the sheet film - no need for an enlarger if the negative already had like a 15 cm diagonal. My great grandmother had tons at stereoscopic images, and even with a 2 inch diagonal, they were amazingly detailed.

Cheers!

Hi DerDa

As promised an update on the Blenheim picture.
With your permission (as per pm) I sent it off to Michael Napier(author of 'Winged Crusaders' and ex 14Sqn pilot).

He has no doubt it is that of the missing Blenheim Z5863 and was very chuffed and grateful to see the image, so thank you again.

As certain bits of the Sqn records are missing there are more questions than answers.
The crew, PO Ormiston and Sgt Fraser were KIA, however the actual record of Sgt E Smith is a mystery at this stage. He was listed as POW but the origin of that report is unknown at this stage, or if he survived the war, or if he could or did shed any light on the events leading to the aircraft going down.

Anyway, all fascinating stuff, the hunt for Sgt Smith continues :salute:
A link to the book for anyone interested, available in ebook or hardcover.
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Winged-Crusaders-Hardback/p/3627
https://www.amazon.com/Winged-Crusaders-Exploits-Squadron-1915-45/dp/1781590591


Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[JV44Rall]

This is an amazing collection, DerDa. Thanks you so much for sharing.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[DerDa]

Well, I know it's not WWII and it's not flight related, but maybe somebody might find this interesting as well.
Within the heaps of old documents and pictures I brought to my home after my mum died I recently found this.
It is about the brother of my maternal grandfather who was born in 1893. He in fact was much better in the role of a 'granddad' than the real one. I think I owe a lot to him, because untiringly he tried to stimulate my taste for educatio and history especially.
All I knew was, that he took part in WWI and became Lieutenant. From some pictures I saw after his death, I gathered he was serving in Northern Italy at some point of time.
Now this document shows his complete military career during WWI, including hospital times and awards, as well as a list of all the engagements he took part in.

Well, that's quite a list. And it was only in August 1918 that he was promoted from the ranks.

[Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders]

What a nice and interesting thread! Thanks for sharing DerDa! :thumbsup:

[ATAG_Flare]

Wow, he served on every front that the Germans took part in during the first world war - seems he started in France, went to the Russian front, went back to France, back to the Russians, back to France again, then to the Italian front, then finally back to France!

[ATAG_Scones]

I've only just discovered this wonderful thread. Thank you so much for sharing, DerDa.

:salute:

[69th_Damon]

Thanks for sharing. Most interesting.

[TWC_Target]

Nice pictures, as a former infantry type I can see my youth in some of them, some things transcend national boundaries and time.

Just to revisit the question of Home su mer. It's Homme su mer, man of the sea.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=homme+sur+mer&qpvt=Homme+sur+Mer&FORM=IGRE
Forgive me if this is redundant.

[Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders]

Here you can find also some pictures from the point of view of a Luftwaffe soldier on the Eastern front! ;)

LINK: https://thegelsenkirchendevilforum.forumfree.it/?t=75359949

[ATAG_Vampire]

Good story, very interesting and great photos.

I think the photo labeled as an 'Iron Annie' Ju 52 only has a single engine and is in fact a Junkers F13.

Thanks for posting. :thumbsup:

07 :salute:

[Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders]

Good story, very interesting and great photos.

I think the photo labeled as an 'Iron Annie' Ju 52 only has a single engine and is in fact a Junkers F13.

Thanks for posting. :thumbsup:

07 :salute:

I've left in the caption the Ju-52 because that was the information provided by Herr Schwall.

Somehow, in my opinion that could be a very rare Junkers (W-34) displaying some field modifications but I'm pretty sure it's not a Junker F-13 ( cockpit glass shape doesn't match like as the radio antenna, the engine cowling and the pitot tube position )...but it's only my guess ;)

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/215/pics/2_5.jpg

[ATAG_Vampire]

Yes, I think you are right Molders. Good spot mate. :thumbsup:

07 :salute:

[danperin]

I've left in the caption the Ju-52 because that was the information provided by Herr Schwall.

Somehow, in my opinion that could be a very rare Junkers (W-34) displaying some field modifications but I'm pretty sure it's not a Junker F-13 ( cockpit glass shape doesn't match like as the radio antenna, the engine cowling and the pitot tube position )...but it's only my guess ;)

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/215/pics/2_5.jpg

Didn't know there was a 'baby Ju-52'! :D

Thank you, Mölders!

[Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders]

Didn't know there was a 'baby Ju-52'! :D

:):):)