Spitfire IIA on the Servers, and altitude of bombers

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute

Thanks for keeping your servers action, I enjoy flying them, lately had good numbers out. :D

On another note, it seems pretty clear now that the Spitfire IIA has a big altitude advantage with the various altitude bugs affecting the Spit/Hurri I's and 109's.

My suggestion is it is removed from the servers for the time being, until the game is fixed. (if it ever is)

There were only three Squadrons of IIA's used in the battle and that was late August onwards.

Also, because the remaining British planes are crippled by the Merlin engine cutout bug over 12,000, the German bombers should be coming in lower than their typical 16,000 ft, standard bomber height, for both British and German twin engined bombers should be 12,000 ft, 4000 meters.

[Dutch]

Also, because the remaining British planes are crippled by the Merlin engine cutout bug over 12,000, the German bombers should be coming in lower than their typical 16,000 ft, standard bomber height, for both British and German twin engined bombers should be 12,000 ft, 4000 meters.

Hiya Buzzsaw. Sorry mate but that ain't so. There is a 'hiccupy' period in altitude around the 13k mark, but lower rpms to 2400 whilst you climb through this, then go back to 2600rpm for the rest of the climb.

I just got to 29,500ft in a Ia on the Dunkirk map online. Screenshot attached. :) I'll wait for the server to cycle to another mission, then try the same with the 100oct. It's too boring doing it offline. :D

[ATAG_JTDawg]

Oh no not again roflmao please please please no no no , m8 it is what it is , give it some time for german flyers to figure out some stuff , BUT we have been down this road before ban 2a ban e4 cannons to big 109s go to high :( lets just play an kill, Colander already has came up with a good idea on anouther thread . just my 2 cents :td2:

[ATAG_Snapper]

I got the Spitfire 1a_100 octane to just over 26 angels. No screenshot, but I ain't lyin'! Honest! :devilish:

Actually, Dutch, it was a quick test of your suggested settings for a 1a climbout: 2600 rpms, 6.25 lbs boost, 160 mph IAS, rad open 100%. Per Buzzsaw's experience, I did encounter rough running as I hit 13 angels (IIRC - it was just an impromptu, informal test). Slightly reducing throttle to 6 lbs got me up smoothly another 2000 feet, then a further reduction back to 5 lbs boost. At that point FTH is reached and boost starts to decrease anyway, even as full throttle is reapplied. (We're talking non-historic work arounds here. Historic engine settings do not work on several (most) of the RAF fighters.) 2600 rpms was maintained throughout, as I recall. I'll be interested to see your findings, Dutch.

Buzzsaw has done some tremendous work on this new Final Patch which he generously shared with us over at 1C. It meshes well with similar hard work done by IvanK. Hopefully we'll see similar on the 109's to get a more accurate overall picture of relative performances before making changes, if any, to our server mission set.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute Fellas

It may be the Merlin cutout varies from Computer to Computer, (Ivan thinks this may be the case) and it also maybe that different people get different results with different techniques.

I used -1 boost and 3000 rpm to try to get higher than 23,000 in the Spit IA octane, it may be another technique works better.

But at the altitude I quit, (23,500) I was crawling along at 110 mph indicated, with the temperature hovering just above 95 degrees and climbrate at 200 feet per minute, basically the aircraft was just crawling up. No doubt I could have climbed higher, but the issue is, could I fight... I think not.

Snapper mentions 160 fpm... that ain't fighting acceleration/climb... What speed were you getting Snapper?

I'll do some more testing of 109's, Spits, Hurricanes and 110's, try some other techniques, see what I get.

I may be surprised, you never know... But in my experience, its a lot easier to get the 109 up to the 6000 meter zone than the Spits and Hurricanes, EXCEPT the Spit IIA. Which is why I singled it out.

Ivan thinks this is an atmosphere bug. Ie. density.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Salute

Did a test of the 109E-3 tonight, climb to max alt.

Got 7700 meters, or approx. 25,250 ft.

Yes, that is lower than the Spitfire climb figures, but more importantly, it took me only approx. 9:40 to get to 6200 meters, 20,000 ft. I believe, but need to double check, that is quite a bit faster than the Spitfires and Hurricanes, and very close to the historical German figures. At between 5000-6000, the aircraft maintained an excellent climb and was fully maneuverable.

And up at 7700 meters, the aircraft leveled out and was quite controllable, at 200 kph, slots not deployed. Heat was well under control, not on the edge of overheating. I was able to turn and do basic maneuvers with it. It was possible I would have gotten slightly higher, I was experimenting with 2300 rpm and lowered pitch, shallow angle of attack, that worked better than 2468rpm and steep angle of attack with slots deployed, but the server disconnected me. Deploying landing flaps was counterproductive.

Have the record if anyone wants to look at it.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Snapper mentions 160 fpm... that ain't fighting acceleration/climb... What speed were you getting Snapper?
.

Aaarrrggghhhh. Sorry, mistyped: 160 mph IAS

I need a better copy editor. :ind:


Will edit my post above accordingly. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Flying the Spitfire 1a last night in the Dunkirk Mission I found that air combat with 109's (two separate dogfights) at altitudes of 9000 and 15000 feet very difficult. Doing straightforward climb tests is one thing, of course, and combat is another. I found myself struggling to maintain altitude in hard defensive maneuvres, with any attempt to climb resulting in dangerously high temps. Not a good time to back off on engine settings to allow the temps to cool when a 109 is on your tail. The 109's were well-flown and had no problem climbing quickly out of range from a co-e/co-alt situation (sustained turn on my 6 o'clock matching my speed but unable to effect a firing solution).

The 109's would abandon the sustained turn attempt and climb steeply to initiate b&z tactics out of the sun. At +9000 feet the Spitfire 1a doesn't have a lot of power on tap, temps are dangerously high (oil 95+, glycol 113+); there is no chance of matching the 109's climb. The only recourse is to perform a shallow yo yo turn to maintain height and visual on your opponent, then attempt a lead turn on a diving opponent to catch him as he pulls out. Watching a 109 in the blinding sun, keeping an eye on temp gauges, manipulating pitch, throttle, and radiator controls to keep temps down and power settings up is a stimulating challenge, but it can be done! In a third encounter over Calais I scored a kill on a 109 as it was firing upon a fellow Red above 10,000 feet in a climbing turn by firewalling pitch & throttle (rad fully open) which put me just within firing range. It was a last ditch effort which, in this case, succeeded but my engine blew a gasket at the apex of my firing climb and I had to force land at Oye Plage without further incident.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Flying the Spitfire 1a last night in the Dunkirk Mission I found that air combat with 109's (two separate dogfights) at altitudes of 9000 and 15000 feet very difficult. Doing straightforward climb tests is one thing, of course, and combat is another. I found myself struggling to maintain altitude in hard defensive maneuvres, with any attempt to climb resulting in dangerously high temps. Not a good time to back off on engine settings to allow the temps to cool when a 109 is on your tail. The 109's were well-flown and had no problem climbing quickly out of range from a co-e/co-alt situation (sustained turn on my 6 o'clock matching my speed but unable to effect a firing solution).

The 109's would abandon the sustained turn attempt and climb steeply to initiate b&z tactics out of the sun. At +9000 feet the Spitfire 1a doesn't have a lot of power on tap, temps are dangerously high (oil 95+, glycol 113+); there is no chance of matching the 109's climb. The only recourse is to perform a shallow yo yo turn to maintain height and visual on your opponent, then attempt a lead turn on a diving opponent to catch him as he pulls out. Watching a 109 in the blinding sun, keeping an eye on temp gauges, manipulating pitch, throttle, and radiator controls to keep temps down and power settings up is a stimulating challenge, but it can be done! In a third encounter over Calais I scored a kill on a 109 as it was firing upon a fellow Red above 10,000 feet in a climbing turn by firewalling pitch & throttle (rad fully open) which put me just within firing range. It was a last ditch effort which, in this case, succeeded but my engine blew a gasket at the apex of my firing climb and I had to force land at Oye Plage without further incident.

Salute

This is exactly my experience.

As you say, it may be possible to climb a little higher, but attempts to maneuver are almost impossible. If you do have an alt advantage, and you engage over 20,000 ft/6200 meters, you need to hit on your diving pass, don't try to maneuver, or you will very quickly find yourself underneath your opponent. Zoom climb performance is very poor, you cannot regain anywhere near the altitude you might lose in a dive.

[Ivank]

There is the Rub you are power limited by the Merlin rumbles as I suggested in the rumbles post for the IA

"To me the Minimum acceptable Combat Power is +6/2800rpm. That essentially limits Spit IA employment to altitudes below 11,500ft
Fighting above 11,500ft means you are power output limited (Since FTH is 15,500ft) by the rumbles so why be there ? You wouldn't want to enter a fist fight with one arm tied behind your back ! So if the 109 is intent on fighting and going up then ignore him. Defend against his slashing attacks whilst you drag him down (downward out of plane defensive breaks are the go here) to <11,500ft THEN go for the throat.

Below 10,500 feet just set 3000RPM and go for it. I found that +6/3000RPM you can roar around all day with Rad half or even less.
Given the Option I would probably choose a MKI DH over a Spit MKIA CSU if any combat is likely above 11,500ft."

And for IA 100 oct
"The 100 Octane MKIA is the most limiting tested so far. In short I wouldn't want to fight above 9000ft in this aircraft.
So similar tactics as suggested for MKIA but using 9000ft as the cut off for 2800RPM and 7000ft for 3000RPM
Given the choice unless its all going to happen below 9000ft I would take any other Spitfire."

A certain discipline is required to just not accept combat in this region. Drag him to where you are not power limited and fight him there. If he refuses to come down ... so be it.

If you are above the Rumble band (essentially above FTH) then realise that if sustained combat takes place you are going to drop back into the rumble band. In this case imo you need to get through it ASAP. Get below it and continue.

Dealing with the Merlin Rumbles thread:
http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?2292-Dealing-with-the-Merlin-Rumbles&p=20681&viewfull=1#post20681

[ATAG_Snapper]

Heh, I have no excuse, I actually printed your notes earlier in the day. Now I just need to learn how to read for comprehension! :D

But I serve a valuable purpose in ATAG. When other members are taking new players out on training flights they simply point over to me and say, "See what Snapper is doing? Study his techniques carefully......then do the opposite!!!!!" :doh: