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Dutch
Oct-24-2012, 10:27
My gunnery is rubbish. I shoot when i think I'm bang on convergence distance according to my gunsight, which I always set for range and wingspan, the 1 in every 6 tracers in my two outer guns are hitting the target perfectly, or so it seems.

Then the end of sortie damage report says I caused a 'tiny fuel leak' and disabled a gun or two............:ind:

When I'm shooting, I generally change the view to the close up gunsight view, but not the 'lean to gunsight' view. These two different views look completely different, in that the reticule of the gunsight shrinks in the lean to view, but doesn't in the close-up view.

It seems that all those months flying Blenheims has nerfed my Hun destroying skills, and I've probably missed all the good gunnery tips.

My convergence is 150/150 on all guns, with a 50/50 mix of AP and DeWilde, with 1 in 6 blue tracer in the two outer guns.

So what do the expert gunners think? Lean-to view or close-up view? Variable harmonisation on each pair of guns? What have I missed over the last year re gunnery?

:doh:

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-24-2012, 11:42
Hi Dutch,

Firstly, i'm no expert gunner. I cannot put rounds exactly where I want them like Mr.X. and co seem to be able to. My rounds generally just hit the aircraft all over the place - with a good few going wide. I doesn't help that as soon as I press the trigger, the spitfire always seems to jump away from the target....

HOWEVER, in spite of the above, I've noticed thew following has improved my results:

1. Vertical Convergence to 250m (setting too close is worse than setting too far out. No matter how far out you set it, the spray can never be more than the distance between your guns. Setting it closer means that the bullets converge earlier, and therefore have the opportunity to achieve a spread - after that point - that is in fact wider than the distance apart that they started at!)
2. Horizontal Convergence to 400m (so the guns fire slightly higher, and the bullets don't drop short)
3. Tracers in gun 1 and gun 8 only. About every 6th round put 5 other ammo types in those guns too. I only use the WHITE tracers that also double up as incendiary
4. Mainly AP ammo in other guns (guns 2 to 7), with some DeWilde. I'm keen to experiment with the ball ammo.. no-one seems to be using it which I think might be remiss.

Only ever shoot in tiny bursts. Tap-tap-tap on the trigger. I see way to many guys letting off long streams of rounds, most of which go wasted, sailing past their targets. In the immortal words of Monty Python , "if a sperm is wasted, god gets quite irate". Every tracer round you fire past is a chance (s)he will see you too.

Trim for rudder!!! Always try to check you're in balance before you pull the trigger. A couple of degrees off balance will throw your bullets past the target at 250m. It's best to practice against bombers. coming in fast from behind and giving it plenty of left-rudder to keep stable. Then come in from below, applying right rudder as you get slow for the same effect.

I never bother setting my gun-sight for distance or wingspan. I know what ~300m looks like, and what ~50m looks like. If the aircraft is between those two distances; ratta tat tat!

Also I never use the lean-to-gunsight view. It seems clumsy. Sometimes I'm not even looking down the barrel so to speak, when I'm shooting. Particularly when I'm is high angles of attack. (normally leaning to try and see down the side of the engine cowling)

Lead! I can't stress enough how important it is to learn to fire at the empty sky sometimes. Especially at high rates of deflection when turning onto his six will cost you too much energy. A passing deflection shot might just be what you need to get that fuel leak, or radiator damage you need to even the odds up. Also, high deflection shots normally mean you have better access tot he canopy - where the pilot is. Lwo deflection shots from behind are the least likely to kill the pilot - at least with our ammunition types.

Doc
Oct-24-2012, 11:57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-TmXoqRtFg

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-24-2012, 12:07
@Doc,

There's always that approach. However, in game (as opposed to real life) we know it's not necessarily the most effective technique.

The guys with the best kill ratios are not always and only firing from under ~80m (at which point the windshield would be full). They're firing from 150m-200m back in many cases, and still getting some amazing kills.

A few watched of Mr.X great videos shows this in game situation. MrX - who I think is the best gunner in the game - is shooting (in his youtube videos) from some pretty long ranges at times, and getting quick kills.

Dutch
Oct-24-2012, 12:27
I never bother setting my gun-sight for distance or wingspan.

Thanks for that info mate. :thumbsup:

This is the weird thing. I seem to get better results by 'using the force' than I do using the gunsight as intended, and also have better success taking the advice in Doc's vid.

This led me to thinking that I'm missing a trick or two with the gunsight, or convergence etc. But maybe not. I do like to get up really close if possible, so maybe I'll try with minimum convergence and take it out from there.......... :D

92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)
Oct-24-2012, 12:33
...maybe I'll try with minimum convergence and take it out from there.......... :D

This is exactly what I did. It's worth the effort.

ATAG_Deacon
Oct-24-2012, 13:49
~S~ Dutch and all,

Although not an expert gunner, my current settings are 180/180 in every gun. I do set the range on the sight, but usually leave the wingspan set at 33 feet. I know when I'm "inside" a 109 at 33 feet and for bombers with a 66' wingspan ie: ju88. I can hit bang on the engine when sighing from wingtip to rudder :thumbsup:

-88's don't fly well when one wing/engine is shredded. They tend to spiral down :)

Works for me, but we're all different.

I did just remove tracers from all my guns...don't want to give the 109 drivers an inclination that I'm there until they feel it :shoot:

~S~

Deacon

ATAG_JTDawg
Oct-24-2012, 13:52
Thanks for that info mate. :thumbsup:

This is the weird thing. I seem to get better results by 'using the force' than I do using the gunsight as intended, and also have better success taking the advice in Doc's vid.

This led me to thinking that I'm missing a trick or two with the gunsight, or convergence etc. But maybe not. I do like to get up really close if possible, so maybe I'll try with minimum convergence and take it out from there.......... :D

Dutch i use the force , i dont mess with adjusting sight , i've set my guns from 100 to 350 , then ended up at 220 , agree i take alot of air shots , saying in my mind a plane is here at that angle he will come out there an adjust my plane an shoot . it works very well most of the time , when you do hit you will do alot of damage, . every pilot shoots diff. an a split sec. between saying i'm going to shoot an then shooting makes a big diff. i see guys every night spraying from what seems to be a mile away , even if they hit, wont be any damage . but my gunnery sucks to :)

RAF74_Buzzsaw
Oct-24-2012, 15:15
My gunnery is rubbish. I shoot when i think I'm bang on convergence distance according to my gunsight, which I always set for range and wingspan, the 1 in every 6 tracers in my two outer guns are hitting the target perfectly, or so it seems.

Then the end of sortie damage report says I caused a 'tiny fuel leak' and disabled a gun or two............:ind:

When I'm shooting, I generally change the view to the close up gunsight view, but not the 'lean to gunsight' view. These two different views look completely different, in that the reticule of the gunsight shrinks in the lean to view, but doesn't in the close-up view.

It seems that all those months flying Blenheims has nerfed my Hun destroying skills, and I've probably missed all the good gunnery tips.

My convergence is 150/150 on all guns, with a 50/50 mix of AP and DeWilde, with 1 in 6 blue tracer in the two outer guns.

So what do the expert gunners think? Lean-to view or close-up view? Variable harmonisation on each pair of guns? What have I missed over the last year re gunnery?

:doh:

Salute

I'm also not an expert, I have just started flying CoD seriously, after a long hiatus when I only flew once every patch.

I personally set my guns all to 200/200, in my mind that gives me a little bit of range to reach out and pop the 109's when they are extending, but is short enough to give a punch when up closer.

I will admit that in some circumstances varying the convergence from gun to gun will give you a hit where my setup won't.

For example, I was behind Mr. X at very close range a week ago, (within 10 yards), and fired, only to see my rounds pass on either side of the cockpit, no second chance as he fell away in a stall and so did I... :( A pilot who had one set of guns set down to a 75 meter convergence would have got the kill. And at extreme ranges, having a pair of guns set out to 300 meters would certain allow for more chance of a hit. The disadvantage of course of multiple harmonization, is that if you are at a normal range, having all that dispersion means a lot of rounds will miss the target. So I would have to say overall, I prefer to focus all the weapons on one spot because of the greater effect when you hit.

I think it is really a question of confidence. If you are sure you can hit a pinpoint spot, then having all weapons aimed at the same convergence is the way to go. If you are not so sure about your accuracy, then better to go for the shotgun pattern, and have a pair at 150, pair at 175, pair at 200, pair at 225, etc.

ATAG_Headshot
Oct-24-2012, 19:02
I would like to offer a bit of a different take on RAF gunnery, or gunnery on any plane with wing guns (109 wing guns included). I will use the spitfire as the example. First off I have my guns set to 150/150 on a spitfire. This number is just personal preference and many pilots use other convergence settings to great effect as well but this just comes down to personal preference and shooting style. The way that I look at it is that the aimer is only good to within about +/- 15 meters of your convergence. That means that at 150/150 I will only really put it right on target (either the enemy planes engine/cockpit) if I see he is at about 135-165 yards. Any closer or any further and you have to start compensating by moving your aimer left or right and aiming with just one wing.

This may seem counter intuitive at first but hear me out. Don't think of your guns as going from your head to the target through the sight. As they are mounted in your wings they are actually quite far off to the side, and from there they have converging lines TO the convergence point and then diverging lines FROM the convergence point. This means at any real distance (again +/- 15 yards is what I personally go with) the bullets will still be a fair ways to either the left or the right of the aimer, depending on the wing. The way that I try and see it is to draw an "X" in my head for the path of the bullets from each wing, crossing at convergence -and going back out from there-. You can see this with tracers easily enough. Where this comes into play is if a target is either far closer or far further from the convergence point.

In the example above where you have an enemy plane 10 meters in front of you and you fire with your aimer centered on his fuselage from dead 6 your guns will fire to either side. From this point I chose to aim with either my left wing or my right wing. There is no way to get both wings worth of guns on the target so you chose one wing and aim accordingly, knowing that the other wings guns will miss. You won't put out the concentrated firepower this way but you can still do some serious damage with just one wing. Say I chose to aim with my left wing at this point, I rudder over so that my aimer is pointed at the middle of the 109's right wing, since most of your guns are in the middle of your wing (this is even more true with a hurricane). By aiming at the middle of the wing on the 109 and pulling the trigger, your guns on your right wing will completely miss but your guns in your left wing will fire inward and hit the fuselage and cockpit of the 109. This is where drawing that "X" in your head that I mentioned earlier comes in quite handy. Once you have a feel for that you can tell exactly where each wings guns will go at any range from you. At ranges further out from 10 meters but not yet at convergence you slowly aim back towards the fuselage but still slightly down the right wing to make your left guns hit the fuselage and if you are lucky your right guns will still hit the outer edge of his right wing (assuming you are both flying straight, such as when a 109 is extending away from you).

This works the same way when the target is past your convergence range, but if you chose to aim with your left wing you will have to start aiming more to the LEFT of the fuselage the further out he gets as the left wing guns cross the convergence point and keep heading out to the right. 150/150 makes it very easy for me to estimate how far to the left/right to aim as it is a fairly easy number to quick do mental math with. For example double that is exactly 300. At 300 the bullets will have crossed and returned to about the same distance apart as they are when I fire them, which means that if a 109 is 300 meters away I again aim half way down one of his wings to have one of my wings guns go straight into the fuselage/cockpit. Any further away then double the distance (again 300 for me) and I have to start aiming even more to the side. At this distance you won't do much damage but you can hit a 109 enough that many pilots will break hard thinking that they are being hit harder then they are and lose a lot of E, at which point you can easily close and finish the job. The goal of distance shooting to me is to trick/force the enemy into giving me a better close range shot.

Another factor to take into consideration is due to your vertical convergence. At 150 that means that the bullets will be right on the aimer at 150 yards, but due to gravity and bullet drop (Something many people here have practice with from either first person shooters or real life shooting, or even throwing a baseball). This can effect your aim as well at varying ranges. To get the bullet to be right on the aimer at 150 yards your guns actually fire slightly UPWARDS from your plane and arc down. This means at very close ranges you have to aim just slightly lower against your targets as the bullets will go up into them, and at ranges past your convergence you have to start aiming slightly ABOVE your target so that they can drop into him. Note that this effect is less pronounced than the left/right aiming.

Taking all this into consideration means that if i fire my guns at a target 400 meters out and I chose to aim with my left wing, I have to aim a fair ways high on him and have my aimer further left than the tip of his left wing. If done right hits at 400 meters is still quite possible even with a convergence of 150 meters.

If you aren't good at estimating ranges you can use your gunsight to help you. This is easiest to do if you have your increase/decrease gunsight range assigned to a joystick button. Keep the wingspan set to 32, but adjust the range up/down until the enemies wingtips just fit in between the horizontal lines in your sight. Once the 109 fits in right you know his range and can then quickly do the calculation for how far left/right and how high/low you have to aim and then move the aimer accordingly.

In conclusion if your target is not close to your convergence range, aim to maximize your damage with one wing worth of guns instead of trying to hit with both.

Sorry for the giant word wall here but I really can't think of a better way to put it. If people are still confused by this or just want to visually see what I am talking about I would be willing to make a tutorial movie showing it better but I would need a volunteer for the project.

Dutch
Oct-24-2012, 19:24
That's a brilliant post Headshot. I have a feeling that I've been doing much of what you say instinctively, hence my successes with 'using the force' rather than the gunsight.

It's not like I'm unhappy with the kills I get, but that I'd like to get more efficient.

Very useful stuff. Cheers. :thumbsup:

71st_AH_Code_E
Oct-24-2012, 19:27
+1 on Headshot's post.

I have gotten all of my pilot kills at the 50 yard range. And one wing is usually firing at nothing with the other firing right into the cockpit.

Also, I shoot past convergence all the time to get an extending opponent to break and give me what I need to close the gap. I think of it as shooting on the far side of the x.
At this range, you can actually move your nose right to hit something to your left.

I find myself shooting with one wing a lot just because I get a little closer than I should. :)